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Tedesche
2010-06-29, 08:18 PM
Please only post builds that focus on UM, rather than just dipping in it for some reason. I'm interested in how people utilize the class. The most obvious build seems to be Wizard 9/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10. Although Wiz 9/Beguiler 1/UM 10 is arguably better. Anyway, I'm interested in what people may come up with, so post away!

PId6
2010-06-29, 08:21 PM
Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5

Qualify for UM using Spontaneous Divination. You end up with full wizard casting, and gain +4 CL from UM along with +5 CL from Archmage.

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 08:30 PM
Qualify for UM using Spontaneous Divination.

What is that, where is it from, and what does it do?

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-29, 08:30 PM
Also note, the boosts you get from UM in that way are actual effective level boosts, note just boosted CL.

Keld Denar
2010-06-29, 08:34 PM
Yea, but then you don't get that tasty tasty free metamagic!

I'd say Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM10/X5 is about the best to get the most out of all of UM's features. If your DM counds Illuman's as humans (given that they have the human subtype), you could pick up Able Learner at level 1 to fully take away the rogues toys and break them in a tantrum. Illumian with the Krau sigil along with Practiced Spellcaster gives you full Wizard progression from UM, since your Wizard CL will always be equal to your Beguiler CL, allowing you to pick. Without Illuman, you have to put an extra (wasted) level in Beguiler meaning you end up with 18/20 wizard casting instead of 19/20.

Spontaneous Divination is in Complete Champion. You give up one of your Wizard bonus feats (typically your 5th level one) for the ability to cast any Divination spell you know spontaneously by sacrificing a spell slot, similarly to how a Cleric spontaneously casts cures. Technically, this qualifies you as a spontaneous spellcaster.

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 08:37 PM
Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus +9/Archmage 3

Gets full Nar Demonbinder, and 19th level Wizard casting. Thanks to how Nar Demonbinder CL is calculated, you don't even lose out on a feat to pick up Practiced Spellcaster. As it doesn't get 1st level spells though, you do however need to use Spontaneous Divination to qualify (if DM doesn't waive that part anyways; the fact that you have a spontaneous caster class should be enough IMHO but RAW requires you to be able to spontaneously cast level 1 spells, which Nar Demonbinder doesn't get).


As the first Ultimate Magus-level advances only the class with lower caster level in the progression, it doesn't matter that you have no Nar Demonbinder levels yet since it'd advance only Wizard anyways. This gets you level 8 spells from Demonbinder and the usual level 9 from Wizard; beats almost any other Ultimate Magus soundly in spell levels [Almost 'cause Beholder Mage...]. Archmage and Mindbender are, as should be obvious, placeholders. The real build is Wizard 5/X 1/UM 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/UM +9/X 3

PId6
2010-06-29, 08:37 PM
What is that, where is it from, and what does it do?
Complete Champion Wizard ACF. Lets you spontaneously give up prepared slots to cast Divination spells. Allows Wizards to qualify for "cast spontaneously" requirements.


Also note, the boosts you get from UM in that way are actual effective level boosts, note just boosted CL.
Eh, I'm going with the less broken interpretation of you can't advance the same spellcasting class twice at the same level with the same PrC. My cheese tolerance isn't that high.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 08:45 PM
I actually am playing a Beguiler 1/Transmuter 3/ Master Specialist 1/UM 5 on a campaign right now, aiming for UM 10 into Archmage. You can drop Evocation and Illusion or Enchantment and never feel it, because you get all the good spells with your Beguiler casting.

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 08:53 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. Nar Demonbinder gets a good bunch of normally-not-arcane spells available at your perusal, including:
- Spell Resistance
- Plane Shift (on level 5)
- The entire Blasphemy-line (did I remember to mention you've got a high caster level for Demonbinder even by conservative reading let alone the more permissive one?)

And then lesser stuff like Flame Strike and Holy Aura. And while they, like Sorcerers, have limited list of spells known, they get all alignments of stuff like Magic Circle against X, Dispel X, Holy Word-line and Holy Aura as one "known" slot.

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 08:56 PM
Okay, maybe I'm slow, but I don't really get how this Spontaneous Divination ACF would work with UM. It does technically qualify you, but since you don't actually have another arcane casting class, and thus can't choose a "lower" class to improve at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels...this seems to go strongly against RAI.

EDIT: Actually, since the book says "lower" instead of "lowest," you could even make the argument that it doesn't work by RAW....

Also, I don't get how the CL boost from UM would translate to actual level boosting with that build. Even if you ignored my above point, wouldn't it still simply mean your known spells would be stronger, rather than pumping you up to the next actual level of spells known?

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 09:01 PM
Your lower class is your higher class, nothing says they must be different. Spontaneous divination is clearly against RAI, but it works in RAW.

About the CL boosting, it really does only make your actual spells last longer and hit harder, not taking you up a level.

Akal Saris
2010-06-29, 09:02 PM
Complete Champion Wizard ACF. Lets you spontaneously give up prepared slots to cast Divination spells. Allows Wizards to qualify for "cast spontaneously" requirements.


Eh, I'm going with the less broken interpretation of you can't advance the same spellcasting class twice at the same level with the same PrC. My cheese tolerance isn't that high.

He's not advancing it twice at the same time. At 4 points in the PrC, both sides of your casting get a permanent +1 to effective CL in addition to +1 spellcasting. Look at the class and you'll see what I mean.

Anyhow, I'd agree that if you go with the RAI entry, Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus +9/Archmage 3 or any other variant on that theme is probably the strongest you'll manage short of beholder mage or late level sublime chord.

But the beguiler build (Illumian Beguiler 1/Wiz 3/Master Specialist 1/UM 10/Archmage 5, for example) is more rules-legal and has better skills at all levels, so that's really my preference if I had to play an UM from 1-20.

PId6
2010-06-29, 09:03 PM
Okay, maybe I'm slow, but I don't really get how this Spontaneous Divination ACF would work with UM. It does technically qualify you, but since you don't actually have another arcane casting class, and thus can't choose a "lower" class to improve at 1st, 4th, and 7th levels...this seems to go strongly against RAI.
The actual wording is "as if you had also gained a level in your arcane casting class with the lowest caster level." Since Wizard is your only arcane casting class, it automatically has the lowest (and highest) caster level among your arcane casting classes.

And yeah, it's obviously against RAI, but works fine by RAW. Most UM builds require some fanangling of the intent to make it not be too much of a self-nerf, though I'll grant that this build goes further than most.


Also, I don't get how the CL boost from UM would translate to actual level boosting with that build. Even if you ignored my above point, wouldn't it still simply mean your known spells would be stronger, rather than pumping you up to the next actual level of spells known?
It's the idea that you can advance Wizard twice at some levels since it's both a prepared and a spontaneous casting class. I don't actually subscribe to that interpretation, but you can make a case for it. Incredibly abusive and strictly TO though.


He's not advancing it twice at the same time. At 4 points in the PrC, both sides of your casting get a permanent +1 to effective CL in addition to +1 spellcasting. Look at the class and you'll see what I mean.

Also note, the boosts you get from UM in that way are actual effective level boosts, note just boosted CL.
Depends on what he meant by "actual effective level boosts." I've already mentioned the +4 CL from UM, so I thought he meant that you get higher than normal spellcasting level (which in turn grants you more slots/spells). I may have read the post wrong though.

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 09:06 PM
The thing I dislike about the Beguiler-build is that the Beguiler is so gimped. You end up with ~level 8-10 Beguiler casting which is equal to 4th-5th level spells or so. By 20. Nar Demonbinder, on the other hand, provides you with 8th level spells and overall, sticks along much better.

Beguiler generally becomes Metamagic Battery while casting your Nerveskitters and such, but Nar Demonbinder contributes to your actual ability outside fueling metamagic too. It is, of course, no secret that the biggest thing in Ultimate Magus is the "Augment Casting"-ability; free metamagic can be really good.


As it can only be metamagicked "once" (you can't Augment a metamagicked spell), you generally want high cost high impact metamagic like Quicken, Persistent, Twin and company. For fueling those, Beguiler is kinda meh, but Demonbinder shines.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 09:10 PM
Currently, on my character (If you missed my other post, level 10 ), I usually end using lots of beguiler spells for utility and save my higher level Wizard ones only when real trouble comes along.

erikun
2010-06-29, 09:20 PM
I enjoy the Wizard 4 / Bard 1 / Ultimate Magus 10 / PrC 5 myself. Take the Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) feat, and you only lose two caster levels of Wizard - one at 1st/3rd level when taking Bard, and one at 12th level when you must advance the lower-level Bard casting.

Bard has less spells and is more MAD than something like Beguiler, but it gives more variety than a Wiz/Sorc/UM. There is also fun stuff like the Disguise Spell feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) and UMD ranks from having Bard levels.

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 09:21 PM
Yeah, I dunno. I'm fairly averse to rules cheese, and thus don't typically go along with things that conflict RAI too much, even in my personal class-combo experimentations.

I don't know about the Nar Demonbinder build—don't know that class. The illumian beguiler/wizard build seems nice though.

It's a pity you have to choose one class over the other in order to get to 20th level. If I were DMing a high-powered campaign, I might rule that 10-level PrCs could be continued before 20th, as it doesn't really make much real-world sense that you'd have to put your best skill set on hiatus until you gained more experience.

As for the "lower" vs. "lowest" thing, I think it's a RAW toss-up. The class feature text says "lowest," but the class table says "lower." One could argue all day about it, but in the end, we'd all have to admit that it's a simple oversight by the writers.

PId6
2010-06-29, 09:24 PM
Another one:

Race: Dragonwrought Kobold (Loredrake)

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 6

Use Favored -> Primary Contact to qualify for UM's skill prereqs.
Use Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to add +3 free Sorcerer levels (White Dragonspawn with LA Buyoff can be added for another +1).
Advance Wizard for UM 1 and UM 4, and advance Sorcerer for UM 7.
Use Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge, advancing Wizard as arcane class and Sorcerer as divine class.

End result:

18th Wizard
18th Sorcerer

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 09:30 PM
As for the "lower" vs. "lowest" thing, I think it's a RAW toss-up. The class feature text says "lowest," but the class table says "lower." One could argue all day about it, but in the end, we'd all have to admit that it's a simple oversight by the writers.

I don't mean to come across as rude or as truth-bearer, but when text and table conflict, text take precedence unless there is an errata.
I would never let anyone enter UM using only one caster class, but any way you read it, if you have only one class, it is at the same time your lowest, lower, medium, higher and highest class. The class even states that if two of your classes are tied, you choose one. That said, I couldn't agree more that it is a class meant for entry with two different classes and should never be entered with only one, making that argument completely irrelevant.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-29, 09:31 PM
Beguiler 1/Battle Stalwart Sorcerer 4/UM 10/Archmage 5, using Dragonwrought Kobold with the free +2 casting from Dragons of Eberron's dragon archetypes, Whitedragonspawn, LA buy-off, Greater Draconic Right, and the dragon psychosis from some Dragon magazine that turns all sorcerer casting into wizard casting.

End result is that your sorcerer wizard casting is at your level +2 before UM and eventually settles down to just your level even without using Practiced Spellcaster (Beguiler).

EDIT: End result is wizard casting of 20 with CL of moar, Beguiler casting of 11.

EDIT2: Actually, you could do PId6's shenanigans, too, making it Beguiler 1/Sorcerer 3/UM 10/MT 6 to get spells as a 20th level wizard and 17th level beguiler. You could switch it to Beguiler 2/Sorcerer 2 to start for 19 and 18, respectively, but I'd rather just use Versatile Spellcaster to get 9th level Beguiler spells.

Fishy
2010-06-29, 09:33 PM
I like to squeeze in one level of Spellthief and Master Spellthief. For the cost of one level and one feat, your CL is permanently set to the sum of all your arcane caster levels- which at worst spares you from having to be an Illumian and at best kicks you up into the 30s. Life is good.

Wizard 3/Master Specialist 1/Spellthief 1/Trapsmith 1/Ultimate Magus seems interesting.

Probably strictly inferior to the Spontaneous Divination build, but can a Wu Jen with the Elemental Adept feat stroll into UM?

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 09:34 PM
Another one:

Race: Dragonwrought Kobold (Loredrake)

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 6

Use Favored -> Primary Contact to qualify for UM's skill prereqs.
Use Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to add +3 free Sorcerer levels (White Dragonspawn with LA Buyoff can be added for another +1).
Advance Wizard for UM 1 and UM 4, and advance Sorcerer for UM 7.
Use Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge, advancing Wizard as arcane class and Sorcerer as divine class.

End result:

18th Wizard
18th Sorcerer

You know much more about this game than I do, and I simply can't follow you most of the time. :smallconfused: 18th Wiz/Sorc sounds awesome though. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-06-29, 09:37 PM
Probably strictly inferior to the Spontaneous Divination build, but can a Wu Jen with the Elemental Adept feat stroll into UM?
Yes, that also works.

Actually, with Alternative Source Spell, Cleric/Druid qualifies for it out-of-the-box thanks to spontaneous healing/summoning.

Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Ultimate Magus 7 for Wizard 17 and Cleric 17.


You know much more about this game than I do, and I simply can't follow you most of the time. :smallconfused: 18th Wiz/Sorc sounds awesome though. :smallbiggrin:
Favored -> Primary Contact is a pair of feats from Cityscape that lets you gain 1 additional rank in a skill, even above the usual skill rank limit (good for early entry, and that's it).

Dragonwrought is a feat from Races of the Dragon that turns a kobold into a true dragon, letting them take the Loredrake Sovereign Archetype from Dragons of Eberron (which grants +2 free sorcerer levels to a true dragon).

Alternative Source Spell is a metamagic feat from Dragon Magazine that lets you turn an arcane spell into a divine one or vice versa (letting you qualify for Mystic Theurge with arcane spellcasting classes).

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is a ritual that kobolds may perform (found in the Races of the Dragon web enhancement), which grants them an additional free sorcerer level.

Note, all of this is extreme cheese and should never actually be attempted in a real game (except for the highest powered ones).

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 09:45 PM
Mm. Props for your ranks in Encyclopedic Knowledge (AD&D), but I probably should have put "hold the gouda" in the thread title. :smalltongue:

PId6
2010-06-29, 09:48 PM
Mm. Props for your ranks in Encyclopedic Knowledge (AD&D), but I probably should have put "hold the gouda" in the thread title. :smalltongue:
Well, you did ask for the "best" Ultimate Magus build. :smalltongue:

For a practical build, yeah, Eldariel's Nar Demonbinder build is probably the best one.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 09:48 PM
So you meant Best USABLE build :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-29, 09:53 PM
So you meant Best USABLE build :smallbiggrin:

Hey now, PId6's stuff is (ab)usable! That totally counts, right?:smalltongue:

Tedesche
2010-06-29, 10:02 PM
Actually, another thing I should have mentioned is that I was also interested in people's feat and spell choices. Sorcerers get access to the arcane fusion spells and can make better use of arcane spellsurge. With a UM build, you could theoretically use your prepared spells with those, no?

I once made an epic-level sorceress (my avatar is taken from her character portrait, actually), that utilized an epic spell the DM let me create, called epic arcane fusion. Same thing, but with 6th- and 9th-level spells. She took three levels of Improved Metamagic, twinned an arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion up a spell-level each, and used Twin Spell and Split Ray to send forth a veritable volley of rainbow beams. Called the technique "prismatic starburst." She had another one, called "assassination jaunt," that involved two dimension doors and five disintegrates. In, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, out. Not a UM build, but still fun nonetheless. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 10:09 PM
Sigh. You folks go into the TO land and fail to take Beholder Mage with you? For shame! If going for best spontaneous caster with Ultimate Magus, it's most certainly Beholder Mage. But I refuse to go there since that involves Polymorph Any Object shenanigans, among other things.

Eh. Maybe I'll make an exception:

Archivist 1/Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 3/Dweomerkeeper 4/Beholder Mage 1/Ultimate Magus 9

With ASS, some Inspire Greatness+Reformation shenanigans you can enter Tainted Scholar on 2. Same tricks allow you to go into Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper. Then you use PAO twice with Assume Supernatural Abilityx2 to enter Beholder Mage. Later you can do some Reformation once you're under Shapechange 24/7 anyways.

You go ahead and pick up Metamagic Effect & Supernatural Spell and have fun. You'll end up with 10/10 Beholder Mage and 17/20 Archivist casting; this means you can pretty much cast all spells ever printed. You can also persist half a hundred spells daily and your casting is entirely Wis SAD ('cause you do it based off your Depravity). You can also cast spells with components for free 1/day. And umm...yeah.


EDIT: Yeah, caster level requirements can be covered with just feats increasing your caster level. Or some such. And if one were running out of feats (I'm too lazy to run the numbers), Chaos Shuffle some extras. This is a really simple, brute force approach but I'm in a hurry.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 10:09 PM
For my part:
Feats:
Human: School Focus (Transmutation)
1 Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation)
Master Specialist: Skill Focus
3 Empower Spell
6 Split Ray
9 Arcane Thesis (Ray of stupidity, but Enervation works well here as well)
12 Arcane Disciple (Competition)
15 Quicken Spell
18 Maximize Spell

PId6
2010-06-29, 10:15 PM
You can also persist half a hundred spells daily and your casting is entirely Wis SAD ('cause you do it based off your Depravity).
Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.

erikun
2010-06-29, 10:21 PM
Actually, another thing I should have mentioned is that I was also interested in people's feat and spell choices.
For the Wizard/Bard, I liked Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Invisible Spell, and Disguise Spell which I mentioned. Yes, I very much enjoyed being able to spontaneously hide my Wizard spells without increasing the prepared spell level. It worked great in social situations.


Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.
Aren't there undead beholders? You probably can't become a beholder necropolitan, but if your DM allows you to become a beholder without adding RHD/LA, then becoming an undead beholder shouldn't slow you down any.

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 10:24 PM
Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.

Depends on the exact definition of a "Beholder" we use. Ultimately though, I suppose you could Lichify yourself. That has some annoying side-effects but you don't qualify for Necropolitan and as you switch your type with the Polymorph, becoming Necro before PAOing would be slightly useless.

gorfnab
2010-06-30, 01:36 AM
Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Incantatrix 5 is fairly easy to build and loaded with metamagic
Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Ultimate Magus 10 / X 3 (either more Unseen Seer or some other casting PrC) lets you be sneaky and versatile with an interesting CL.

nargbop
2010-06-30, 07:13 AM
Trick for multi-progression PrCs : Build off of fast-progression classes, like Naar Demonbinder , Sublime Chord , Ur-Priest , and if you're really cheesy, Beholder Mage.
Take a single level of Spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat. Synergize with the Sublime Chord caster level rules and you're golden.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-30, 07:43 AM
Note that Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and thus qualify for Able Learner, making the Beguiler 1/ Wizard/ UM build that much more attractive. Also note that Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend spontaneous spell slots to cast any spell you know of a given level, so you can use that to spend Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you've read and made the Spellcraft check to understand, even if it's not in your spellbook. This allows you to go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM, though you'd need two flaws and have to skip Able Learner.

If going Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10, you could finish out with one more Wizard level for one of the nice Wizard 5 ACFs, and get Incantatrix 4 to finish out to 20. If you go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 3/ UM 10, you could finish with four more Master Specialist levels for the Moderate Esoterica and have one level left over for something like Mindbender 1 for Mindsight or Spellthief 1 for stacking caster levels. You could even skip both Illumian and Practiced Spellcaster and go Human Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 1/ Master Specialist 2/ UM 10/ Master Specialist 5, which with Master Spellthief would stack all your effective levels for a higher, equal caster level in all classes, and you'd still be able to get Able Learner.

Jeff240sx
2010-06-30, 09:21 AM
The best entry is dependent on things.

Need a pile of skillpoints at level 1, a party face, and ... a Beguiler?

Beguiler 1 / Conjurer / Master Specialist (gives feat needed for one of the PrCs) / UM 10 / Archmage X.

You would give up Enchantment / Illusion for the specialization.
I'm AFB right now so I can't be more specific. But the MS1 gives you the required feat.

It's kinda suboptimal because your Beguiler level will be low. You'll end up doing out of combat utility with it, and powering Metamagic with it.


The best entry is going to be Conjurer / MS / Nar Demonbinder / UM 10 / AM 3.
My personal workaround would be something like Necrotic Cyst feat at level 1 to get your 1st level spontaneous spell, and a bunch of spells known. There are a ton of other feats to give you a spontaneous spell already mentioned, but I like the Cyst.

You get incredibly powerful Divine spells, with more utility than a cleric gets casting their own spells (Demonbinder allows alteration of the spells to your whim), and at spell levels which would power whatever Metamagic you need - handy at higher levels / epic.

Os1ris09
2010-06-30, 11:03 AM
here is a question for the GITP:

If you went with the beguiler/conjurer build with UM would your "effective caster level" be +2 at 1,4,7 level of UM. Like you would be gaining 2 levels in the casting class for the specific case of CL. I don't think you get the spells known/per day stuff but your CL increases right?

elonin
2010-06-30, 11:08 AM
I favor the beguiler start for the single casting stat and the fact that it makes it easier to give up 3 schools for focused specialist. I don't understand why everyone goes gaga over able learner. It's a decent feat in that you are not burning through skill points but you still only get 1/2 progression on skills.

Os1ris09
2010-06-30, 11:11 AM
I favor the beguiler start for the single casting stat and the fact that it makes it easier to give up 3 schools for focused specialist. I don't understand why everyone goes gaga over able learner. It's a decent feat in that you are not burning through skill points but you still only get 1/2 progression on skills.

but that is the entire point. gold pieces can be replaced. Feats and skill points can't. there is a set number of them so we have to use them wisely. Therefore anything that can save you skill points or feats is great. Bonus feats are loved for this very reason as well.

You are correct that you still only get 1/2 progression (assuming it isn't a class skill for any class you have) BUT you save that extra skill point to put into something else. :smallwink:

elonin
2010-06-30, 11:29 AM
I do agree about skill points, but some people out there have an impression that able learner gives full skill point progression.

Os1ris09
2010-06-30, 11:56 AM
while true but when you gain a level in a class you can then increase its rank to full. That could mimic "full progression". say at 1st level I am a human with rogue as my class and I have the able learner feat and I choose to put points into knowledge (arcana) and 1 skill point into it. Then my next level I choose to go into wizard. I can then put 4 points into knowledge arcana to continue my progression and make it to full ranks for "class skill" even though I originally had it as a cross class skill.

so while you are correct there are ways to make it full progression

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 12:04 PM
From the SRD:




Skills

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

I hope this brings some light to that matter.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-30, 12:07 PM
See also: the Spellthief Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95070).

DanReiv
2010-06-30, 12:22 PM
But Knowledge Arcana isn't a class skill for rogue so you would still be paying 2 points for 1 rank @ level 1...which kinda beat the purpose of able learner :p

Better wait 3rd level to max it out at small cost (all 1:1).

But I tend to agree that it tend to give full progression. No point of taking Able Learner if you don't multiclass, usually starting with high skill points, high number of class skill Class.

Basically you end up with so many skills as class skills that it's pretty much full progression for at least 3/4 of them.

As for the Magus, I doubt a sane DM will allow Kobold and Beholder mage cheese :smallbiggrin:

I'd go with a Human Beguiler 1/Wizard 3/UM 1/Mindbender 1/UM 9/Fatespinner 4/Whatever with arcane spellcast 1

Simple effective and not bleeding cheddar.

Beguiler gives you UMD and lots of skill points, both SAD on INT, netting lots of extra spells both sides and a reasonable amount of skill points to spend even on the 2+ points classes. It has a lot of charm spell, making Enchantment a kick ass school to drop as wizard.

Just for that I believe beguiler>other spontaneous in a UM build.

But that's just me :smallbiggrin:

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 12:28 PM
But Knowledge Arcana isn't a class skill for rogue so you would still be paying 2 points for 1 rank @ level 1...which kinda beat the purpose of able learner :p


I don't know if there is errata on Able Learner, but if memory does't fail me, if you take it at first level, you will always pay 1 point per skill rank, be it class or cross class. The only difference then becomes the maximum rank.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-30, 01:05 PM
I love a necromancer on the wizard side of a wizard 3 / dread necromancer 1 / spellthief 1 / UM 10 / Archmage 5 / +X

You can now finaly pay for that painful cost of Fell Animate. Free undead on the fly! Felldrain magic misile on the go. Fell weaken ray of enfeblement.

Best thing is the fact that your caster level is even for all casting classes, so you can apply those increases hovever you wish.

You end up with Wizard 18, sorrcerer 8, and spellthief 1.
This is a caster level of 27 in three classes. Thats 27 X 4 X 3 hd of undead you can control. Thats a silly 324 HD of undead!

Use archmage to make the most powerful undead creation spell a spelllike to avoid the cost.

Tytalus
2010-06-30, 01:07 PM
Another one:

Race: Dragonwrought Kobold (Loredrake)

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 6

Use Favored -> Primary Contact to qualify for UM's skill prereqs.
Use Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to add +3 free Sorcerer levels (White Dragonspawn with LA Buyoff can be added for another +1).
Advance Wizard for UM 1 and UM 4, and advance Sorcerer for UM 7.
Use Alternative Source Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge, advancing Wizard as arcane class and Sorcerer as divine class.

End result:

18th Wizard
18th Sorcerer

That doesn't work; you don't meet the requirements for the Alternative Source feat. And even if you would, it would merely allow you to prepare your arcane Sorcerer spells as divine spells; it would not make Sorcerer a "divine spellcasting class" that you can progress with Mystic Theurge.

I'm not going to touch the viability of the Kobold/Loredrake cheese as is hotly debated elsewhere.

Tytalus
2010-06-30, 01:09 PM
OT: I'm very fond of Beguiler1/Wizard1/HumanParagon3/UM10/X++ myself.

Massive skill points, everything is INT-based, you get an extra feat, a +2 INT and better saves compared to the (already very good) B1/W4/UM++ are too good to pass up.

Keld Denar
2010-06-30, 01:10 PM
Um, IIRC, Able Learner can ONLY be taken at 1st level...

The whole point of it is that most Beguiler skills aren't on the Wizard list, like UMD or Disable Device. Once you take the single Beguiler level, your max with those skills is FOREVER character level +3. Able Learner then allows you to use your Wizard skill points to buy ranks 1:1 at each level to keep them topped off. You won't get quite as many skill points to keep all of you Beguiler skills maxed, but you can keep the important ones like UMD capped out.

Without Able Learner, you'd have to burn 2 points per rank to keep UMD maxed out for your Wizard levels until you get into UM, which, for some reason, has UMD as a class skill as well.

Gametime
2010-06-30, 01:12 PM
I don't know if there is errata on Able Learner, but if memory does't fail me, if you take it at first level, you will always pay 1 point per skill rank, be it class or cross class. The only difference then becomes the maximum rank.

You have to take it at first level, and all it does is make the cost 1 point per skill regardless of class or cross-class.

Depending on whether or not you think the benefits of leveling up listed in the Player's Handbook have to be taken in order, however, you may get Able Learner too late for it to apply to the skill points you spend at level 1.

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 01:15 PM
You have to take it at first level, and all it does is make the cost 1 point per skill regardless of class or cross-class.

Depending on whether or not you think the benefits of leveling up listed in the Player's Handbook have to be taken in order, however, you may get Able Learner too late for it to apply to the skill points you spend at level 1.

Are you saying that if I take that feat that gives 5 skill points, I can't spend them until the next level up? :smallconfused:

elonin
2010-06-30, 01:41 PM
You have to take it at first level, and all it does is make the cost 1 point per skill regardless of class or cross-class.

Depending on whether or not you think the benefits of leveling up listed in the Player's Handbook have to be taken in order, however, you may get Able Learner too late for it to apply to the skill points you spend at level 1.

I haven't heard of any ruling that keeps the Able Learner from applying to 1st level skills. The real implication of that rule is to prevent early entry to prestige classes (by taking feat before selecting class). Then again I thought that only the current class skills were considered for level+3 ranks. Then again many games don't go by strictly RAW.

Gametime
2010-06-30, 01:44 PM
Are you saying that if I take that feat that gives 5 skill points, I can't spend them until the next level up? :smallconfused:

I'm saying the Player's Handbook lists the benefits on leveling up, on page 58. There are two ways to read it: as a list or as a procedure. Personally, I lead towards the former and favor the interpretation that you can order the acquisition of level-based benefits as you like, but I'm not sure that's actually the case.

If that's true, then the line "you spend them as normal" might mean you don't actually get the benefit until your next level, or it might mean that you spend them as part of the feat, with the "normal" line just referring to the cost of class and cross-class skills.

Os1ris09
2010-06-30, 02:35 PM
See so my point was made. Able learner is great for theurge builds where skill points are needed to cover skills.

@ OT: Personally I like the beguiler feel of this type of class but I can't seem to find some classes that would help me support them even more since I can't elaborate why.

The classes I am failing to find are the following:
Nar Demonbinder
Beholder Mage

When you go to pick a race and you want some small sprinkle of cheddar instead of outright cheese in a can think of the dragonwrought kobold thing. I dont know if +3 to all mental stats out weighs Able learner with a bonus feat and bonus skill points but something to consider as well.

Southern Cross
2010-06-30, 03:14 PM
Actually,I think that the magister class (from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved) might qualify as a spontaneous spellcasting class,due to the way that the magic system works. If that is so,then the ultimate cheese UM build would be a magister/wizard combo.(Magister being the first (and largest class) so you can pick up the bonus ceremonial feat at 1st level,and can pick up ceremonial feats as you level up.Also,magisters get the following class feature at 6th level: +2 to all saving throws vs. magic and +2 competence bonus to AC against all spells requiring attack rolls.)

PId6
2010-06-30, 03:37 PM
That doesn't work; you don't meet the requirements for the Alternative Source feat. And even if you would, it would merely allow you to prepare your arcane Sorcerer spells as divine spells; it would not make Sorcerer a "divine spellcasting class" that you can progress with Mystic Theurge.
Bah, forgot about that prereq. You'll need a cleric dip, which works out to Wizard 17/Sorcerer 18. Still 9th/9th.

And any class that casts divine spells is a divine spellcasting class. It's not defined any other way.

Theodoxus
2010-06-30, 04:28 PM
Any class or feat that allows prepared casting using Charisma as the casting stat? I like the flavor of sorcerer, but would prefer to be less mad than Wizard (although, going the opposite route - turning Cha into Int casting stat would work as well).

Just doesn't seem fair that Beguiler using Int but there isn't an obvious correlation in the other direction.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-30, 04:33 PM
Able Learner: If you get a skill as a class skill for even one level, i.e. Beguiler 1, it's always considered a class skill for your character for purposes of what your max ranks are. So at level 5 your max ranks for every Beguiler skill is 8, but without Able Learner you'd have to spend 12 ranks for every skill at 8 ranks that aren't also Wizard class skills. Able Learner enables you to keep max ranks in all those nice Beguiler skills like Spot, Listen, Hide, Sense Motive, UMD, Bluff, Search, Disable Device, etc. without any additional cost.

UM's Arcane Spell Power +X: This is a bonus to caster level for effects like duration, range, how many d6's a Fireball does, etc., not spellcasting ability. You can add your own bonuses and penalties in the most beneficial order. An Illumian Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 4 with Krau and Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler has spellcasting ability at Beguiler 3 and Wizard 8. His caster level for Beguiler is (3 base) + (4 practiced spellcaster) + (2 Krau) + (2 Arcane Spell Power) = 11, at character level 9. His Wizard caster level is (8 base) + (1 Krau, no higher than his character level) + (2 Arcane Spell Power) = 11, at character level 9.

Nar Demonbinder: If you can't find a prestige class, check the WotC Lists Archive (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists), it's found in Unapproachable East. Note that Nar Demonbinder grants 4th-8th level spontaneous spells, so you wouldn't qualify for UM without the Spontaneous Divination ACF or similar shenaniganary. It adds your level in other spellcasting classes to itself to determine your caster level, so you wouldn't even need Practiced Spellcaster to put 10/10 UM into Wizard. Its greatest drawback is probably that without 3rd-level and lower spell slots, and only 4/4/3/2/1 spells/day at the final level, you can't power much metamagic with it. IMO Beguiler is a much better choice for a UM build.

For a build using an accelerated progression prestige class, I'd probably go something like Bard 1/ Wizard+PrCs 8/ UM 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ UM 9. Take Versatile Spellcaster to use 0-level Bard slots to cast 1st level Wizard spells you know to qualify you for it, and you can later use Sublime Chord spell slots to spontaneously cast your higher level Wizard spells known. You'll lose 3 levels of Wizard spellcasting, since UM 1 will be applied to Bard, but you could include a level of Spellthief and take Master Spellthief to equalize your caster levels and even do some stacking shenanigans once you get Sublime Chord for an arbitrarily high caster level.

Edit: Sorcerer is no different from Beguiler, just take Versatile Spellcaster and you can use Beguiler spell slots to spontaneously cast any Wizard spell you've learned. It turns Beguiler into a Sorcerer with more spells known, more skill points and class skills, class features, SAD, etc. There's just no reason to use Sorcerer unless you want to get Draconic Heritage or use Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans.

Os1ris09
2010-06-30, 10:20 PM
So I think the playground verdict of "best usable build" is the following

human/illumian

Beguiler 1/Wizard 3 (4)/UM 10/(Spelltheif 1)/ X++

Feats are the following
1: Able Learner
the rest are up to you.

Happy Hunting with UM :smallbiggrin:

the humanity
2010-06-30, 10:48 PM
a little more MAD, but Warmage 1/Diviner 4 (ban evocation)/UM 10/prc 5 is cool.

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 10:52 PM
a little more MAD, but Warmage 1/Diviner 4 (ban evocation)/UM 10/prc 5 is cool.

At the point where you accept MAD, you should rather go Sorcerer than Warmage. Sorcerer picks up a bunch of valuable Sorcerer-only spells and still enough Evocation to hit all the possible needs you may have. That said, I retain my suggestion that Nar Demonbinder is the best Int/Cha combo for UM.

Barmacral
2010-06-30, 10:53 PM
My UM is currently Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / UM 10, and I'm going to continue with Wizard progression until ECL 19, and for 20 I'll go into Archmage for the 3 timestops a day. My Int is high enough to have 1 bonus 9th level spell at 20th, and in the various splat books I've managed to find feats that actually replace some archmage levels, which allows me to continue in core Wizard longer, getting more bonus feats from my wizard levels... I think. Not sure offhand, as my group is taking its summer break from D&D (we get too busy to play and end our sessions for the year in the beginning of May and pick up again in August / September area).

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 10:58 PM
My UM is currently Beguiler 1 / Wizard 4 / UM 10, and I'm going to continue with Wizard progression until ECL 19, and for 20 I'll go into Archmage for the 3 timestops a day. My Int is high enough to have 1 bonus 9th level spell at 20th, and in the various splat books I've managed to find feats that actually replace some archmage levels, which allows me to continue in core Wizard longer, getting more bonus feats from my wizard levels... I think. Not sure offhand, as my group is taking its summer break from D&D (we get too busy to play and end our sessions for the year in the beginning of May and pick up again in August / September area).

...that's a bit backwards. You're getting one Wizard-bonus feat by expending a couple of feats to acquire Archmage-abilities? Yeah...about that, how about you just take those Archmage-levels and thus end up with the abilities and save those feats you'd use for them for whatever you'd want the Wizard bonus spells for instead?

Wizard 5 can be worthwhile if you're interested in Spontaneous Divination but beyond that, I wouldn't bother. Archmage has:
Arcane Reach (irreplicable outside...well, Incantatrix-level stuff)
Mastery of Shaping (available as Extraordinary Spell Aim but this is better and easier to get)
Spell-Like (irreplicable)
Spell Power (irreplicable)
Arcane Reach #2 (irreplicable)

So...yeah. Archmage is never a bad investment and it definitely beats taking a level in Wizard for a feat to replicate some of that, if you've already gone through the trouble of qualifying for Archmage anyways.

Keld Denar
2010-06-30, 11:04 PM
As a Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM10, you are a 15th level character. You would get a bonus feat at Wizard5, or Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM10/Wizard1, but that only leaves you with 4 levels left till 20. You'd need 5 more levels to get another Wizard bonus feat. Best to take 4 Archmage levels at that point, or 4 levels in something like Incantatrix or Fatespinner or such. If anything, you might consider taking a 6th level of Wizard, since 6th level of any class always gives you +1 BAB and +1 all saves (unless you are using fractional BAB/saves).

Mystic Muse
2010-06-30, 11:16 PM
Are there any good classes to use as Support for the spontaneous side?

Keld Denar
2010-06-30, 11:21 PM
What do you mean support? Like, buffs? Sorcerer can have them all. Or Beguiler has some. Also, if you have Versatile Spellcaster, you can burn your spontaneous slots to cast spells directly out of your spellbook. Hows that for support? Think of a low level support spell you cast a lot. Say...Nerveskitter, chained with your Lesser MM Rod of Chaining. Learn it on your wizard side. Now, when combat starts, burn a Beguiler slot to cast Nerveskitter, channel it through your MM Rod, and BOOM! You are supporting with your spontaneous side, irregardless of what the spell list you are casting from really has.

Thats sexy!

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 11:24 PM
Are there any good classes to use as Support for the spontaneous side?

Demonbinder. It packs multiple non-Arcane buff spells and has high spell levels thus fueling Augment Casting extremely well. Of course, it's a great active side too but hey, just 'cause it's good for anything doesn't hurt at all.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-30, 11:25 PM
Yeah, Buff spells. Is there any good way to get the "Bite of the Were X" spells to affect somebody besides you?

What's Demonbinder from?

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 11:26 PM
Yeah, Buff spells. Is there any good way to get the "Bite of the Were X" spells to affect somebody besides you?

Spellguard of Silverymoon.


EDIT: @your edit, Unapproachable East.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-30, 11:27 PM
Spellguard of Silverymoon.

And that's from where?

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 11:28 PM
And that's from where?

There's an index for stuff like that. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc) Player's Guide to Faerun, though.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-30, 11:34 PM
Thanks for the info.

Tytalus
2010-07-01, 02:04 AM
Bah, forgot about that prereq. You'll need a cleric dip, which works out to Wizard 17/Sorcerer 18. Still 9th/9th.

A cleric dip shaves a level off both class progressions since you get one level less of mystic theurge. You end up with 17/17 (if your previous numbers were correct), so you don't get double 9s.


And any class that casts divine spells is a divine spellcasting class. It's not defined any other way.

Classes don't cast spells, characters do. Classes provide spells.

The class still provides arcane spells (see class description). You can opt to prepare some of them as divine, but that doesn't change the class.

PId6
2010-07-01, 02:35 AM
A cleric dip shaves a level off both class progressions since you get one level less of mystic theurge. You end up with 17/17 (if your previous numbers were correct), so you don't get double 9s.
Nope; you replace a wizard level, not a Mystic Theurge level. You'd start as Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 1/Wizard 2, rather than Sorcerer 1/Wizard 3. It ends up as CC 1/Sorcerer 1/Wizard 2/UM 10/MT 6, which becomes 18/17/1 in the end.


Classes don't cast spells, characters do. Classes provide spells.

The class still provides arcane spells (see class description). You can opt to prepare some of them as divine, but that doesn't change the class.
If the class provides access to divine spells (thanks to Alt Source Spell), then you can argue that it's a divine casting class. The thing is, the terms "arcane spellcasting class" and "divine spellcasting class" aren't actually defined in the rules, so it's up to interpretation what actually qualifies as one or the other.

I'll admit, however, that using the type of spells the class itself casts is probably the most reasonable way to quantify it.

Psyx
2010-07-01, 10:38 AM
Was just scanning the net to look for what UM5 gives me (levelling up soon, bored at work, no books on me...you know the drill), and ended up here.

I'm actually playing a UM at the moment. So far it's:

Wizard 1
Human Paragon 3
Sorc 1
UM 4

I'll be sticking with UM for the duration. After level 15... who knows. 3.5 gets clunky by then, so we may not even be playing still. That said Cormyr warmage and Paraganostic apostle both look interesting. I digress...

Key Feats and blag:

Focused Evoker [Yes: I know it's 'weak', but I don't insist on dialling the cheese to full, and I just fancied blowing stuff up]. Dropped Necro, Illusion, Charm. I have picked up a Ring of Arcane Elite [source unknown. GM handed me the write-up on it!], which resulted in me kissing goodbye to Divination as well, and gaining even more spells per day. I'm also focusing on fire spells, and have Cashilite Elementalist, Fiery burst, Searing metamagic feats, giving me a good fire-focus and providing me with the ability to bypass resistances. Again: It's not 'optimal', but it sure is fun.

The Theurgic Specialist feat from Dragon magazine was an option that I grabbed, giving my evocations a CL of 14 at 9th level (+1 for fire, too!).

I'm NOT using the practised spellcaster blag for several reasons:

1) It's a feat. And feats are precious.
2) The 9th level thing... we probably won't be playing high enough to worry about it
3) Arcane Fusion. I want it, and gimping Sorc won't get me it. As I'm not likely to ever play a high level sorc, it's my only chance to play with the spell, and boy: what a spell!
4) It's far too obvious.

Spellshield ACF gives me a good defensive capability. Wings of Cover and Energy Aegis also add to this, without forcing me to spend rounds buffing. You can't be prepared for every combat, and with only 4 in the party, I need to be able to dish out firepower fast, and can't always assume there will be a meatshield in the way. Choosing False Life as a sorc spell allows me to have a long-running buff, as does Improved Mage Armour. I do have Shield and Prot Energy always memmed, but seldom get to cast them. Levitate as a Sorc spell tends to get me out of the messy combats most of the time, as we don't spend much time in dungeons. It makes a great Sorc choice too, as sometimes you never need it, and on other occasions, you wish you had it in every combat.

So far, so good. The character is playable from low level, has a reserve feat for when he's running low, good immediate-action defence capabilities, and has a load of useful skills thanks to a massive Int and Paragon levels. As the character is a member of the nobility, I've kept Diplomacy in-class so as to act as 'face man', and I am proficient in a sword - the traditional badge of nobility and a flavour thing. Paragon levels also dragged my HP up a little.

Swift concentration, teller of tales and the two skill tricks based on sleight of hand spellcasting are also pretty useful.

Spell of the campaign for me so far has been the awesome Combust; now delivering 11d8 damage. I've got spectral hand as a sorc spell, but frankly I'll probably sub it out soon, as I tend to be up close and personal rather a lot anyway!

Psyx
2010-07-01, 10:47 AM
As regards MAD: I don't see it as too huge a problem. Simply pick what class you want to primary spellcast in, and then just use the other one for powering metamagic or for casting spells that aren't stat-dependant, such as buffs and utility.

"but that is the entire point. gold pieces can be replaced. Feats and skill points can't. there is a set number of them so we have to use them wisely. Therefore anything that can save you skill points or feats is great. Bonus feats are loved for this very reason as well."

You've said yourself why I don't really rate Able Learner: It's a Feat. And feats are golden. I tend to rank them above skillpoints, especially if with a high Int. And Human Paragon lets you sidestep the issue and fill out with flavour skills to a level where I don't see the feat as being worthwhile.

Mongoose87
2010-07-01, 11:00 AM
It also costs you a caster level, which may be even more valuable than a feat.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-01, 11:00 AM
It also costs you a caster level, which is always even more valuable than a feat.
Fixed that for you.

Rothen
2010-07-01, 11:05 AM
Wizard 1
Human Paragon 3



Thou shalt not give up caster levels!

...Well, just sayin'. Not the best choice if you want to be as optimised as possible. In fact, you'll lose one caster level to Sorc, and probably one or two to UM, too. (Barring some clever CL tricks)
So losing another one to Human Paragon doesn't seem worth it.

And choosing any other school over evocation isn't cheesy. It's just common sense - blaster wizards are generally a bad choice.

Psyx
2010-07-01, 11:52 AM
Casting levels are golden... but so is +2 INT and a free feat. An extra 3HP, 6 skill points (well... 22 if we go to 20th level), a martial weapon [well, ok: It's not brilliant] and the choice of skills aren't bad either.

Ultimately, if you want the blaggiest combat build possible then it's probably not worth loosing, and it does put me a casting level behind all the way through (although the reduced number of spells most certainly is not a problem, as I never seem to be able to use them all!). However, loosing it has netted me an awful lot of other goodies, most certainly kept me alive (I've been at -9 twice...thank-you extra HP!) and has given the party a good number of skills that we would otherwise completely lack (we have a summoner, and two divine casters who can just about count to ten*).

And... it's characterful and a little more rounded than most optimised builds, while still being very effective. Or maybe I just don't have the nerve to look a GM in the eye and say 'I want to play an arcane gnome Nar Demonbinder with persistent metamagic for character reasons'...

For a more optimised version, replace Evoc with Summon and dump necro, charm and evoc. But we already have a summoner, an predominantly evil / necro spell list was out of the question due to risk of lynching, and a predominance of undead rendered an enchanter or illusionist less optimised for the campaign than even an evoker. (And I am looking forward to playing an enchanter at some point in another campaign, where it's remotely viable)

Anyhow: Specialising in Evocation doesn't preclude the use of other spells; it just means three per level of evocations, which is fine. Magic Missile is never useless, shatter, combust, ray of ice, glitterdust, web, gust of wind, Storm mote, gt. thunderclap, fireball... In a typical day; those spells will all see good use. And the joy of UM is that you can dump 'good' schools with 'essential' spells, and just simply pick them up as Sorc choices.




*The characters; not the players!

DragoonWraith
2010-07-01, 12:41 PM
Casting levels are golden
Yes they are.


but so is +2 INT
+1 DC, +3 spells/day at best. When the average casting level gives you +0.5 DC (thanks to higher level spells half the time), and far more spells/day. Nope, not worth a spellcasting level.


and a free feat.
No feat in the game is worth a spellcasting level. Entering a PrC, maybe, but finding some way to do it without Human Paragon would be much better.


An extra 3HP,
Toughness is awful.


6 skill points (well... 22 if we go to 20th level)
Yawn. A full-caster doesn't really care. Especially a Wizard. And other things can do that anyway. What's the parenthetical mean?


a martial weapon [well, ok: It's not brilliant]
Yeah, meh. Occasionally but rarely useful. Other than the feat, though, this is about the best thing you get.


and the choice of skills aren't bad either.
Really it's the only reason you'd bother with Human Paragon.


Ultimately, if you want the blaggiest combat build possible then it's probably not worth loosing, and it does put me a casting level behind all the way through (although the reduced number of spells most certainly is not a problem, as I never seem to be able to use them all!). However, loosing it has netted me an awful lot of other goodies, most certainly kept me alive (I've been at -9 twice...thank-you extra HP!) and has given the party a good number of skills that we would otherwise completely lack (we have a summoner, and two divine casters who can just about count to ten*).

And... it's characterful and a little more rounded than most optimised builds, while still being very effective.
The Human Paragon is not awful. And the flavor's fun. But from an optimization standpoint, it's ultimately not worth it. And this thread is about the "best" Ultimate Magus build.

As for a caster-heavy party, you'd have been better off going into a Gish PrC, I'd think. Human Paragon does have the advantage of being available early, though.


Or maybe I just don't have the nerve to look a GM in the eye and say 'I want to play an arcane gnome Nar Demonbinder with persistent metamagic for character reasons'...
Actually, I really want to do a Conjurer/Master Specialist/Malconvoker/Nar Demonbinder/Ultimate Magus at some point. That's just bursting with flavor.

Rothen
2010-07-01, 12:51 PM
Dragoonwraith pretty much explained the golden rule.

Oh, and:


Magic Missile is never useless.

Shield.



In a typical day; those spells will all see good use.

They'll definitely contribute: you're still playing a full caster, it's tough to be useless.
There's just better choices, which is what we're looking for in this thread.

Psyx
2010-07-02, 08:38 AM
"Shield."

Or - continuing with the mild pedantry - force dragons.


"Toughness is awful."

Yes it is. I was referring to the extra mean 3hp from moving to d4 to d6.


"There's just better choices, which is what we're looking for in this thread."

The thread starter then refined that, so as to be not excessively heavy on the cheese. I was aiming for that.

If we're simply discussing the 'best' build, then I think that the conversation has probably been well documented before and the prior comments have covered all the main bases. Specialised summoner / Demonbinder, UM10 and a few levels of AM or whatever floats your boat to finish things off is enormously solid and doesn't rely too much on getting your GM drunk before they agree to it. Although my own preference would be to use Sorc instead of demonbinder for the sake of sanity.

If DM is in the mix, then Arcane Gnomes aren't too shoddy at all. Dragonwrought kobolds are a cheeky way of essentially getting free stats, but you generally can't go wrong with a human.*

Going back to the thread starter's queries, some ACFs and feats that I'd look at would be:

Summoner: subbing out familiar for immediate teleports [PHB2].
Sorc: sub out the familiar for something else nice - spellshield [PHB2?] or rapid metamagic if you can't afford to buy it as a feat.

If the campaign is time intensive, sub out scribe scroll for improved initiative [UA] or Enhanced summoning [UA] for a summoner. If you don't pick up the improved initiative now, then do it later; because few things are more annoying than loosing a lovely chance to lay waste to an encounter thanks to getting beat solidly on initiative.

Theurgic Specialist [DM] is a bit of a no-brainer feat for blow-torching through spell resistance, especially couple with the feat-whose-name-escapes-me which allows 10 on caster level checks.

Quicken is essential. Pick a couple more of the well-known awesomeonastick high cost metamagics as well: Extend and persistent, twin spell, oracular spell... whatever takes your fancy. Empower is better than maximise, but given that we have a vast pool for powering metamagic, maximise arguably has a place. Sculpt spell isn't bad either. Oh: And craft contingent spell, because contingency is from a school we dropped like a stone.

I'd maybe skip Easy Metamagic, as it's not like you'll be short of spells to power the metamagic. Arcane Thesis too. There's a definite advantage of having them, but it's like having a 10% discount on a cheap meal.

Obviously, you'll probably want to do the Practised Spellcaster feat trick.

Grab a reserve feat perhaps, for the rare occasions that you run low on spells. I'd probably consider summon elemental, because it has a number of out-of-combat and utility uses.

Precise shot can be useful for those ranged touch debuffs, when you don't want to risk clipping your tank, but can't bear the -4.




*Unless they have 'Favoured enemy: Human'; before you say it.

Tytalus
2010-07-02, 09:15 AM
Nope; you replace a wizard level, not a Mystic Theurge level. You'd start as Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 1/Wizard 2, rather than Sorcerer 1/Wizard 3. It ends up as CC 1/Sorcerer 1/Wizard 2/UM 10/MT 6, which becomes 18/17/1 in the end.

That way you don't qualify for UM anymore, lacking 2nd level spells.

You could get around that with Precocious Apprentice, but that locks you up feat-wise and requires you to use flaws. It doesn't work with the +3 sorcerer levels either, since Precocious Apprentice stops working once you can cast 2nd level spells normally (via Sorcerer in that case).

PId6
2010-07-02, 09:31 AM
That way you don't qualify for UM anymore, lacking 2nd level spells.

You could get around that with Precocious Apprentice, but that locks you up feat-wise and requires you to use flaws. It doesn't work with the +3 sorcerer levels either, since Precocious Apprentice stops working once you can cast 2nd level spells normally (via Sorcerer in that case).
Sanctum Spell.

Rothen
2010-07-02, 09:37 AM
The thread starter then refined that, so as to be not excessively heavy on the cheese. I was aiming for that.

I deny that banning evocation - or not specialising in evocation - is cheesy. It's optimised.

It's semantics, I know, but the words have two completely different meanings.

Edit: Heh. Sanctum Spell. Good times.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-02, 09:52 AM
Yes it is. I was referring to the extra mean 3hp from moving to d4 to d6.
I'm aware, but three class levels are worth more than a feat anyway, so... if that's all you're getting, that's even worse.


The thread starter then refined that, so as to be not excessively heavy on the cheese. I was aiming for that.
Except that avoiding Human Paragon entirely and taking straight Wizard would have been better. That's... the primary problem. The Ultimate Magus already loses two spellcasting levels; losing a third for what you're getting here just isn't worth it.


If we're simply discussing the 'best' build, then I think that the conversation has probably been well documented before and the prior comments have covered all the main bases. Specialised summoner / Demonbinder, UM10 and a few levels of AM or whatever floats your boat to finish things off is enormously solid and doesn't rely too much on getting your GM drunk before they agree to it. Although my own preference would be to use Sorc instead of demonbinder for the sake of sanity.
Actually, as has been pointed out, Nar Demonbinder is neither overly powerful for this (late entry means it doesn't work out as nicely), nor does it lack flavor justifications (Nar Demonbinder and Malconvoker have the most amazing flavor synergy), and finally, it's very certainly not the most powerful version. The one that takes Beholder Mage is far more powerful, but massively more cheesy as well.


If DM is in the mix, then Arcane Gnomes aren't too shoddy at all. Dragonwrought kobolds are a cheeky way of essentially getting free stats, but you generally can't go wrong with a human.*
"Arcane" Gnomes? Anyway, Venerable Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobolds with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage would be, of course, even better than Nar Demonbinder, but... meh. That would be cheesy, IMO.


Summoner: subbing out familiar for immediate teleports [PHB2].
For the average Conjurer, I agree (actually, personally, that's an overdose of cheese - interesting how people have different definitions of that?), but for a Summoner, the UA Conjurer Specialist ACF that trades your Familiar for Standard-action Summon Monster spells is better.


Sorc: sub out the familiar for something else nice - spellshield [PHB2?] or rapid metamagic if you can't afford to buy it as a feat.
Both are good, though you might also consider keeping the Familiar - Imbue Familiar with Spell-like Ability is a sickeningly good spell.


If the campaign is time intensive, sub out scribe scroll for improved initiative [UA] or Enhanced summoning [UA] for a summoner. If you don't pick up the improved initiative now, then do it later; because few things are more annoying than loosing a lovely chance to lay waste to an encounter thanks to getting beat solidly on initiative.
Improved Initiative is definitely worth picking up if you have no feats you need, but I'd put it fairly low on my list of priorities. Enhanced Summoning gets you Augment Summons, which is pretty awesome and helps qualify for Malconvoker if you go that route, though.


Theurgic Specialist [DM] is a bit of a no-brainer feat for blow-torching through spell resistance, especially couple with the feat-whose-name-escapes-me which allows 10 on caster level checks.
Arcane Mastery is the take-10 on Caster Level checks.

Anyway, had to look up Theurgic Specialization - holy crap! Who thought that was a good idea? Hahaha, dip Spellthief, take Master Spellthief and that, and... good god. Your caster level on specialist spells would be 38, before anything optional.


Quicken is essential. Pick a couple more of the well-known awesomeonastick high cost metamagics as well: Extend and persistent, twin spell, oracular spell... whatever takes your fancy.
You're complaining about the Nar Demonbinder, but you recommend Oracular Spell?! And Persist, too. We have very different ideas of what is cheese, you and I.


Empower is better than maximise, but given that we have a vast pool for powering metamagic, maximise arguably has a place. Sculpt spell isn't bad either.
Depending on your build (i.e. whether or not you get into Master Specialist and whether or not you finish Ultimate Magus with levels to spare), a dip into Archmage could get Mastery of Shaping, which is better than Sculpt Spell every time.


Oh: And craft contingent spell, because contingency is from a school we dropped like a stone.
Again, this is, IMO, much cheesier than Nar Demonbinder.


I'd maybe skip Easy Metamagic, as it's not like you'll be short of spells to power the metamagic. Arcane Thesis too. There's a definite advantage of having them, but it's like having a 10% discount on a cheap meal.
Ehhh... Maybe. Haven't run the numbers. Of course, they're also a 10 on the cheese-o-meter.


Obviously, you'll probably want to do the Practised Spellcaster feat trick.
Yes, this I definitely agree with.


Grab a reserve feat perhaps, for the rare occasions that you run low on spells. I'd probably consider summon elemental, because it has a number of out-of-combat and utility uses.
Summon Elemental's awesome; the rest, not so much.


Precise shot can be useful for those ranged touch debuffs, when you don't want to risk clipping your tank, but can't bear the -4.
On a Touch attack... meh. Get a Rod of Magical Precision (Complete Mage) for this.

Tytalus
2010-07-02, 09:53 AM
+1 DC, +3 spells/day at best. When the average casting level gives you +0.5 DC (thanks to higher level spells half the time), and far more spells/day. Nope, not worth a spellcasting level.


You seem to be missing the big picture. Looking at each boon alone it sure may seem that the caster level is better. It is, however, misleading.

Yes, in general loosing caster levels is a bad thing. Unless you get something equally valuable for it (see 10 commandments of optimization).

Comparing a more reasonable (1) Beguiler1/Wizard1/HP3/UM10/X5 with a (2) Beguiler1/Wizard4/UM10/X5, for example (with "X" being any class progressing wizard casting). Switch sorcerer for beguiler, if you must. Let's compare:

Spellcasting:

The difference is not as big as it may seem, since the "lost" caster level further helps exploit the Practiced Spellcaster trick:

(1) has wizard casting progression as a wizard 18 (9th level spells) and beguiler casting 8 (4th level spells).

(2) has wizard casting progression 18 (9th level spells) and beguiler casting 9 (4th level spells).

End result: you loose a single level of beguiler casting progression, but not even the ability to cast spells of your highest level there. Big whoop.

Of course, your progression in your primary casting class is slightly slowed from level 3-12. To use your odd math for comparing DCs: The HP build has a +1 DC to all spells (yes, both classes) for 16/20 levels (+1.6 DC). The non-HP build has +1 DC for the primary class for 10/20 levels and +1 DC for the secondary class for 8/20 levels. According to your math, (1) get +1.6 DC vs. (2)'s +0.9. Halve both values if you want the averages. Either way, the HP build has a distinct advantage.

In terms of spells available, you overestimated the difference between two levels of spellcasting progression. On average, you get less than two spells extra per level of advancement (case (2)). With an INT of 18+, the extra +2 INT gives (1) at least two extra spells - in both spellcasting classes. So overall, the HP build wins, if only by a small margin.

Skills:

(1) has 20 more skill points and (with the almost mandatory Able Learner feat) all skills as class skills from level 3 onward. I strongly doubt "full casters don't really care", as you put it.

Feats:

(1) has an extra feat, not limited to a bonus feat list. Feats are precious.

(1) also gets a free Martial Weapon proficiency. Not great, but, as you said, occasionally useful.

Other benefits of (1):

The extra 6 hit points (on average) are nothing to sneeze at.

Your WILL save is 1 higher. Not great, but certainly nice.

Summary:

The reduced casting progression does not have the effect you made it appear to have (i.e., this is a special case where the usual rule of not loosing caster levels doesn't fully apply), and the benefits are actually very useful - even for "full casters".



The Human Paragon is not awful. And the flavor's fun. But from an optimization standpoint, it's ultimately not worth it.

I'd say it's a viable alternative.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-02, 10:02 AM
The interactions with Ultimate Magus and losing another level of Beguiler is something I had not considered. If you're starting play at or near Ultimate Magus 7, I'll concede that point.

Master Specialist would still be superior.

Tytalus
2010-07-02, 10:03 AM
Sanctum Spell.

Bring on the cheese! :roach:

Keld Denar
2010-07-02, 10:38 AM
The interactions with Ultimate Magus and losing another level of Beguiler is something I had not considered. If you're starting play at or near Ultimate Magus 7, I'll concede that point.

This point is moot if you use an Illumian with any combination of the Krau sigil, as the 7th level of UM will advance Wizarding at that point, rather than your spontaneous class. At that point, the non-HP build should pull ahead.

Gametime
2010-07-02, 12:48 PM
I deny that banning evocation - or not specialising in evocation - is cheesy. It's optimised.

It's semantics, I know, but the words have two completely different meanings.

Edit: Heh. Sanctum Spell. Good times.

While evocation is almost certainly the best school to ban, I'd argue that it's not the worst school to specialize - or at least focused specialize - in. That honor probably goes to divination, which few wizards would drop even if they were allowed to but lacks enough useful spells at each spell level to justify devoting half your slots to it. (Admittedly, most evocation spells have the same problem, but the Spell Compendium provides enough useful force damage and control effects to give a focused evoker something to do in every combat.)

Eldariel
2010-07-03, 12:28 AM
Hmm, any way to become undead and still qualify for Beholder Mage? While Tainted Scholar is powerful, managing taint gets old after a while.

Actually, I just remembered Kiss of the Vampire in SC; makes you treated as UD for all spells and effects without actually turning you into one. We can just persist that and be golden.

PId6
2010-07-03, 12:36 AM
Actually, I just remembered Kiss of the Vampire in SC; makes you treated as UD for all spells and effects without actually turning you into one. We can just persist that and be golden.
You'll have to be careful that getting dispelled doesn't kill you, but otherwise, yeah, that works. You get the benefit of keeping your Con score too, for yet more metamagic abuse. Fun.

Eldariel
2010-07-03, 08:28 AM
You'll have to be careful that getting dispelled doesn't kill you, but otherwise, yeah, that works. You get the benefit of keeping your Con score too, for yet more metamagic abuse. Fun.

Well, you have Supernatural Spell so you could use it on that, I suppose. With extras as Contingencies.

rgard
2010-07-10, 01:49 PM
Hi All,

First post here. For a gish-like UM build you could do:

Duskblade 3, Wizard 3, Spellsword 1 (at some point in the build), UM 10, Abjurant Champion 5.

You can vary the levels of Duskblade and Wizard depending on your taste, but I always like Duskblade 3 to get the Arcane Channelling.

The Spellsword level gets you the reduction in ASF, 1 level of spell casting and 1 BAB.

Dandu posted the link to this thread over on ENWorld which led me here. Thank you, Dandu.

Thanks,
Rich

Mongoose87
2010-07-10, 02:07 PM
The only problem with an Ultimate Magus in a Gish is that it's going to be very short on HP.

rgard
2010-07-10, 02:22 PM
The only problem with an Ultimate Magus in a Gish is that it's going to be very short on HP.

Very true, can't dispute that, but I did use one as the BBEG in one campaign to good effect.

Thanks,
Rich

dextercorvia
2010-07-10, 02:25 PM
You will also be short on BAB (+15 at 20). Advancing Duskblade casting doesn't really do anything for you. You just barely get 3rd level Duskblade spells, so you can't really take advantage of the UM's Augmented Casting. You can't channel and full attack in the same round. I think you are trying to do to much with one build.

rgard
2010-07-10, 04:03 PM
You will also be short on BAB (+15 at 20). Advancing Duskblade casting doesn't really do anything for you. You just barely get 3rd level Duskblade spells, so you can't really take advantage of the UM's Augmented Casting. You can't channel and full attack in the same round. I think you are trying to do to much with one build.

The +15 BAB is decent though, especially rays with true strike.

Also, any non-full BAB class will reduce the duskblade's BAB. That's a good reason to stay full duskblade, but that's a different discussion probably.

The duskblade spell advancement does give alot of spells so you can augment a fair amount up to your max per day. No duskblade can arcane channel a full attack at less than 13th level which is a draw back of any theurge progression.

I agree there is alot going on and it is not an optimized build. That said, your character will always have something to do.

Been playing the game for many many years. I'm at that point where the character concept will almost always trump optimization. I'm not adverse to trying to accomplish both though.

Thanks,
Rich

Keld Denar
2010-07-10, 04:14 PM
The +15 BAB is decent though, especially rays with true strike.

This issue there isn't total To Hit, its the loss of the 4th iterative. One of the advantages of gishy builds is that they either use spells to augement their To Hit high enough that even their 4th iterative has a good chance to hit, or they use something like Wraith Strike to make their attacks touch attacks, which are much easier to hit with. With either of those, you're 4th iterative should hit most of the time, making it VERY worthwhile to have it. That means +16 BAB is the golden number to shoot for for any gish build.


I'm at that point where the character concept will almost always trump optimization. I'm not adverse to trying to accomplish both though.

You're character concept is a gish. That is simple and easy to accomplish with many more well established builds. Concept-wise, there is very little difference between that and something like a Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjChamp4/SacEx8 or such. Just a guy who casts a fair amount of spells while hitting things hard. Optimization-wise, they are in completely different leagues. Stormwind Fallacy, if there are multiple methods to execute a concept, why not use the strongest (within reason...Practical Optimization only).

TheMinxTail
2010-07-10, 04:35 PM
Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5

Qualify for UM using Spontaneous Divination. You end up with full wizard casting, and gain +4 CL from UM along with +5 CL from Archmage.

Come on, that's just Munchkin.

rgard
2010-07-10, 05:24 PM
This issue there isn't total To Hit, its the loss of the 4th iterative. One of the advantages of gishy builds is that they either use spells to augement their To Hit high enough that even their 4th iterative has a good chance to hit, or they use something like Wraith Strike to make their attacks touch attacks, which are much easier to hit with. With either of those, you're 4th iterative should hit most of the time, making it VERY worthwhile to have it. That means +16 BAB is the golden number to shoot for for any gish build.



You're character concept is a gish. That is simple and easy to accomplish with many more well established builds. Concept-wise, there is very little difference between that and something like a Fighter1/Wizard6/Spellsword1/AbjChamp4/SacEx8 or such. Just a guy who casts a fair amount of spells while hitting things hard. Optimization-wise, they are in completely different leagues. Stormwind Fallacy, if there are multiple methods to execute a concept, why not use the strongest (within reason...Practical Optimization only).


"Gish-like" was my wording. Sure there are much better ways to build a gish, but this is a UM thread.

Could also call the duskblade/wizard/um a "gish-lite" build if you want.

Been through all those other builds in multiple forums all over the internet.

I just threw in a gish-like UM build.

PId6
2010-07-10, 06:06 PM
Come on, that's just Munchkin.
I think my other build further down the page is far more munchkiny than that one. :smalltongue:

anubistheta
2010-07-10, 07:12 PM
I just wanted to pick the hivemind. There are many ways to treat prepared casting as spontaneous casting, but is there method to treat spontaneous casting as prepared?

I thought I remember some feat, class feature, etc that allowed spontaneous casters to prepare spell(s) with metamagic so that they didn't increase the casting time.

PId6
2010-07-10, 07:25 PM
I just wanted to pick the hivemind. There are many ways to treat prepared casting as spontaneous casting, but is there method to treat spontaneous casting as prepared?

I thought I remember some feat, class feature, etc that allowed spontaneous casters to prepare spell(s) with metamagic so that they didn't increase the casting time.
Arcane Preparation. However, that doesn't work with Ultimate Magus since it requires the ability to prepare spells from a spellbook.

Evil the Cat
2010-07-11, 01:18 AM
I forget the exact details of this build I used, but I think it was something like this,

Bard 1, Spellthief 1, Wizard 3, UM 2, Wiz Prc 3, Sublime Chord 2, UM 8

Master Spellthief makes all your arcane caster levels stack, so you can always count whichever you want as the lowest. In the end you cast as wizard 17, seeker 9. Ninth level spells from both.

Incantatrix is a fun choice for those 3 prc levels, but it can be basically anything that has full spellcasting advancement.

I'm not sure its the best, but with nobody using Sublime Chord in UM, I had to do something.