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Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 10:31 PM
Hey Playgrounders
I'm building a universe for my Pathfinder players in their next campaign.
It's concept is that there is no large continent but several largish islands ruled by high level spellcasters
There are hardly any villages, most of the islands are entire cities, and trading is prominent everywhere.
There are several factions, but no nations. The leaders of the cities, or sometimes large islands with a pair or trio of cities, have alligences to these factions but that by no means ties the members of them together.
Wizards, sorcerers, and the occasional cleric and druid upkeep militias in their cities to fight off rival Warlords and Port Raiders.
I have a couple questions,
What could be the most common melee class in this setting, where to be magicless is to be condemned, useless, and better off dead?
I have access to many 3.5 books including Tome of battle, tome of magic, most of the complete _____ books, dragon magic and many more.
My second question, is there a way to put a gif/jpeg/btmp file onto a digital globe? I would kind of like to put my map into a realistic looking globe.
Google Earth perhaps?

Thanks for the help

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 10:34 PM
I believe in this case, the most common meleer would be the Cleric, Duskblade or some sort of Eldritch Knight.

Eldariel
2010-06-29, 10:36 PM
I believe in this case, the most common meleer would be the Cleric, Duskblade or some sort of Eldritch Knight.

I'd expand on that with Druid, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Jade Phoenix Mage, Swiftblade and overall, gishes. Swordsages would probably also exist; they've got a hint of magic to them. Factotums too. Crusaders and Warblades might or might not manage; they are certainly outgunned but they've got some power.

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 10:37 PM
I believe in this case, the most common meleer would be the Cleric, Duskblade or some sort of Eldritch Knight.

I mean a base class no PRCs
Religeon isn't very prominent except for Gods of magic, Like my BBEG of my current campaign

I'm reading up on duskblade now, thanks for that suggestion

PId6
2010-06-29, 10:39 PM
Yep, the melee types will be gishes, divine casters, psionic classes. At lower levels, Psychic Warrior, Ardent, Duskblade, Cleric, and maybe Swordsage (depending on your definition of magic) would all work as magic-based melee types. At higher levels, you open up the options of Slayers, Druids, Jade Phoenix Mages, Abjurant Champions, Meleeficers, Ordained Champions, Polymorphers, Archivist-zillas, etc etc.

Edit: If you want non-divine base classes (that work at low levels), your options are:

Duskblade
Psychic Warrior
Ardent
Swordsage
Artificer(?)

Jorda75
2010-06-29, 10:46 PM
Even in a magic heavy campaign the most common melee classes still tend to be fighters and their ilk, unless magic is truly everywhere there are many people who lack the ability (remember an average NPC has 10 in most stats, an therefore would not be able to cast any but the most basic of spells) or cannot afford the training needed to achieve more than simple cantrips.

In many campaign worlds where powerful mages rule (Dragonlance in particular comes to mind, but Forgotten Realms also has many examples) those in power do not wish to have that power challenged and often discourage the use of their particular kind of magic or otherwise keep a very close eye/strangle hold on those who advance to far along in the art.

However if you want magic to be readily available to any and all I would think that as mentioned above the Eldritch Knight would be common, as well as melee based Warlocks and Spellswords. Hex Blades also make a very cool choice in this category and Marshals, while not casters in their own right, can multiclass in to sorcerers for a devasting warrior/leader/mage.

CubeB
2010-06-29, 10:51 PM
You can flavor the Tome of Battle classes as being literal Blade Magic. Like adepts from shadowrun, for instance.

Optimystik
2010-06-29, 10:59 PM
There's also Hexblade.

...Why's everyone staring at me like that?

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 11:01 PM
There's also Hexblade.

...Why's everyone staring at me like that?

Mostly because of your handsome avatar. And because I had written that on my previous post, then had a good laugh and erased it.

centuriancode
2010-06-29, 11:01 PM
For someone with just enough magic to scrape by, but generally still being mêlée classes and relying on mêlée more than magic, variants on Paladins and Rangers can potentially work. You could also change it so that their magic becomes more arcane focused if you really want to remove divine magic. Also, because their magic is very limited (but made up for by abilities) they can be more beleivable as mooks who don't require outstanding ability scores to function as NPCs.

Jorda75
2010-06-29, 11:02 PM
There's also Hexblade.

...Why's everyone staring at me like that?

Ha ha, I threw in Hexblade at the end of my post as well, I didn't want to mention them but I guess if you're looking for a class for like...guards and everyday troops it would work :smalltongue:

PId6
2010-06-29, 11:03 PM
Hmm, a variant of Mystic Ranger might work as well, actually. Just make their spells arcane, let them ignore ASF in light armors, and give them melee proficiencies in place of ranged proficiencies (exchanging TWF for something better is optional).

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 11:03 PM
Ha ha, I threw in Hexblade at the end of my post as well, I didn't want to mention them but I guess if you're looking for a class for like...guards and everyday troops it would work :smalltongue:

Duskblade just PWNS Hexblade. Specially at low levels...

Jorda75
2010-06-29, 11:06 PM
Duskblade just PWNS Hexblade. Specially at low levels...

Gah, I always forget about Duskblade for some reason, I always end up thinking of Hexblade and how bad they suck.

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:15 PM
Duskblade
Psychic Warrior
Ardent
Swordsage
Artificer(?)

I'm leaning toward duskblade right now, it seems like a very versatile class, i haven't read all of it.
I've also been looking a sword sage i may throw a couple of those in there, just a little variety.


Hmm, a variant of Mystic Ranger might work as well, actually. Just make their spells arcane, let them ignore ASF in light armors, and give them melee proficiencies in place of ranged proficiencies (exchanging TWF for something better is optional).

This is also an excellent idea, i think it would work swimmingly

Jorda75
2010-06-29, 11:20 PM
I'm leaning toward duskblade right now, it seems like a very versatile class, i haven't read all of it.
I've also been looking a sword sage i may throw a couple of those in there, just a little variety.


This is also an excellent idea, i think it would work swimmingly

It's good to see you're willing to experiment and change the rules around a bit. I don't really see anything wrong with creating a new set list of spells that are arcane instead of divine, it just takes some play testing and a keen eye for the utility and power of each spell in question. Not enough DM's are willing to take these kinds of chances on changing a core class but if you ask me no one knows the game better than long time players and DM's so they should know what's fair and what works. Kudos.

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:22 PM
It's good to see you're willing to experiment and change the rules around a bit. I don't really see anything wrong with creating a new set list of spells that are arcane instead of divine, it just takes some play testing and a keen eye for the utility and power of each spell in question. Not enough DM's are willing to take these kinds of chances on changing a core class but if you ask me no one knows the game better than long time players and DM's so they should know what's fair and what works. Kudos.

Thank you :biggrin: It's good to hear that someone feels the same way

Lysander
2010-06-29, 11:25 PM
Rogues. Think about it. In a world where magicians have the upper hand in any direct fight those without magic are going to learn to use stealth and surprise tactics.

Also AoE attacks that would kill off a platoon of fighters quickly would be less effective against a team of rogues thanks to evasion. And their trapfinding skill would be crucial for detecting and bypassing magical defenses.

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:28 PM
Rogues. Think about it. In a world where magicians have the upper hand in any direct fight those without magic are going to learn to use stealth and surprise tactics.

Also AoE attacks that would kill off a platoon of fighters quickly would be less effective against a team of rogues thanks to evasion. And their trapfinding skill would be crucial for detecting and bypassing magical defenses.

You know that's a very valid point, and they won't be rare, thats for certain,
I may make some adjustments though to fit them in the universe

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 11:37 PM
The same point made for Rogues can also be made for Rangers, as they are also capable of the same tatics.

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:39 PM
The same point made for Rogues can also be made for Rangers, as they are also capable of the same tatics.

True, actually my players don't have a rogue they have a ranger with ranks in disable device and sneak.

Makensha
2010-06-29, 11:40 PM
This isn't really helping you answer your question, but I have a question of my own. If the entire islands are cities, where's your food supply?

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:43 PM
This isn't really helping you answer your question, but I have a question of my own. If the entire islands are cities, where's your food supply?

Well many of the islands have excess land for wildlife, in fact some islands are uninhabited.

Also, who says spell casters simply can't cast spells to generate food?

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:47 PM
This was my first draft of the map,
I'm not using it though, it's too large and there are a couple of islands i made to big
http://s209.photobucket.com/albums/bb83/radmaster64/TheBrokenIsles.png

Kantolin
2010-06-29, 11:48 PM
If you're in a magic-heavy universe and were a wizard or other spellcasting leader, I'd love a hexblade around more than a duskblade.

I mean, the duskblade causes damage, woo. The hexblade has a d10 hit dice and lowers their saves with curses and, if level 4 or higher, dark companion. You are then free to turn them into turtles or dominate them or disintigrate them or whatever floats your boat, and it's notably more reliable.

So he's a better wall (He then has light armour, but at low levels so does the duskblade). The ability to lower people's saves and survive a touch longer is more valuable to a wizard's henchman than a the ability to deal more damage. It's like most bards - hexblades make /you/ more useful.

So I'd put additional thought to the hexblade, since 'wizard support' would be helpful. Especially ones who focus on fear and other additional debuffs, to debuff while they debuff.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 11:50 PM
This isn't really helping you answer your question, but I have a question of my own. If the entire islands are cities, where's your food supply?

What, you've never seen food being produced inside urban territory?

Aeromyre
2010-06-29, 11:56 PM
What, you've never seen food being produced inside urban territory?

Yeah also there could be breeding houses, where tons of animals are kept to be breed and killed simply for food

Hague
2010-06-29, 11:56 PM
I'm just imagining some magically engineered food source or maybe soylent?

Anyway, I picture your magic heavy world where there's a feat like "Hidden Talent" (a psionic feat) for arcane casting, giving people access to one 0 and 1st level spell slot, with no main stat for pumping DCs, caster level 1 and the ability to prepare spells. Those SLA feats are really lame.

This way, even commoners know a spell or two.

mabriss lethe
2010-06-30, 12:07 AM
Spellthieves would make rather good public safety officers, It's not difficult to give them amazing saves and they would work well using the same sneak-and-smack tactics as the rogue....And they can strip unruly spellcasters of their powers.

Witch Slayer, if refluffed for the world, would make a good, relatively mundane elite warrior/guard.

Aeromyre
2010-06-30, 08:57 AM
If you're in a magic-heavy universe and were a wizard or other spellcasting leader, I'd love a hexblade around more than a duskblade.

I mean, the duskblade causes damage, woo. The hexblade has a d10 hit dice and lowers their saves with curses and, if level 4 or higher, dark companion. You are then free to turn them into turtles or dominate them or disintigrate them or whatever floats your boat, and it's notably more reliable.

So he's a better wall (He then has light armour, but at low levels so does the duskblade). The ability to lower people's saves and survive a touch longer is more valuable to a wizard's henchman than a the ability to deal more damage. It's like most bards - hexblades make /you/ more useful.

So I'd put additional thought to the hexblade, since 'wizard support' would be helpful. Especially ones who focus on fear and other additional debuffs, to debuff while they debuff.

I read through the entire class and wasn't as impressed as I was with the duskblade. They just seem to be a non-good arcane paladin. I really don't want a class with alignment restrictions.

I'm still also considering Swordsage, I'm reading the disciplines, stances and maneuvers now. It does seem somewhat complicated but i think it needs to be read to be understood completely

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 08:59 AM
Spellthieves and Ninja could replace rogues. Then the Swordsage is that one Ninja that gets betrayed by his master and kills all the rest.

Any psionics in this world?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 09:01 AM
I'm still also considering Swordsage, I'm reading the disciplines, stances and maneuvers now. It does seem somewhat complicated but i think it needs to be read to be understood completely

The mechanic is that of magic. Specific abilities with specific effects, and you can use them a limited number of times per bout.

The changes mostly come from the refreshing mechanic: Each class has a specific one, maneuvers can be prepared only once, and in 5 minutes you can redo your readier maneuver selection.

Aeromyre
2010-06-30, 09:02 AM
Spellthieves and Ninja could replace rogues. Then the Swordsage is that one Ninja that gets betrayed by his master and kills all the rest.

Any psionics in this world?

I've never been a fan of psionics, simply because when i first started playing it was nigh impossible to get unless your DM cheated rules, you had to have 18 int 18 chr and 18 wisdom for a 3% chance to get them, or something like that. And i think it adds unnecessary rules to the game.

Aeromyre
2010-06-30, 09:03 AM
The mechanic is that of magic. Specific abilities with specific effects, and you can use them a limited number of times per bout.

The changes mostly come from the refreshing mechanic: Each class has a specific one, maneuvers can be prepared only once, and in 5 minutes you can redo your readier maneuver selection.

Yep I've read the class, it's just the manuevers, stances, and disciplines i have not read

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 09:04 AM
I've never been a fan of psionics, simply because when i first started playing it was nigh impossible to get unless your DM cheated rules, you had to have 18 int 18 chr and 18 wisdom for a 3% chance to get them, or something like that. And i think it adds unnecessary rules to the game.

you mean like any supplement?


Yep I've read the class, it's just the manuevers, stances, and disciplines i have not read

Generally they are normal attacks with a twist, like more damage or limiting the target's actions.
Or they let you perform a little more than usual, like a double move and an attack.
Or they buff your action for that round, like having your attacks deny the enemies' AoOs for a couple rounds.
Or better doing/defending on a maneuver like trip. The actual list of maneuvers, on ToB's pages 48-51 give you enough of an idea of what the characters can do.

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 09:06 AM
Unnecessary? Yes.... But they are also balanced, flavorful and fun. You should check it out before crossing it out. All games I have played in have disallowed Psionics for that same argument of being unnecessary, and it saddens me. :smallfrown:

Aeromyre
2010-06-30, 09:07 AM
you mean like any supplement?

Well I haven't read about psionics since AD&D in the appendix of the PHB, so i really wouldn't know

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 09:10 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/

Its your chance!

Aeromyre
2010-06-30, 09:14 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/

Its your chance!

I actually have complete psionic and the psionics handbook given to me as part a large bundle of books, but i've never really looked through them

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 09:15 AM
Well I haven't read about psionics since AD&D in the appendix of the PHB, so i really wouldn't know

Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/) are spontaneous casters with a simpler power source. The powers themselves are no different than spells and as the system states, powers are just spells by other name.

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 09:16 AM
Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/) are spontaneous casters with a simpler power source. The powers themselves are no different than spells and as the system states, powers are just spells by other name.

Damn! My gish needs to find this "Hustle" spell like, right now!

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 09:23 AM
Damn! My gish needs to find this "Hustle" spell like, right now!

a warblade or swordsage of first level can do a Tiger Claw maneuver called 'sudden leap'. swift action, do a jump to move for free.
At a much later level you can do so with Diamond Mind's quicksilver motion

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 09:39 AM
a warblade or swordsage of first level can do a Tiger Claw maneuver called 'sudden leap'. swift action, do a jump to move for free.
At a much later level you can do so with Diamond Mind's quicksilver motion

Yes they can. And Lion Spirit Totem Barbarians can Pounce!
But what I was trying to point is that psionics aren't just spells with different names...

I find them a little more varied and balanced than spells really... Even if most of them are exact transcriptions of their Magical counterparts...

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 09:43 AM
Sorry, when i said that they are spells by any other name, I meant the overall mechanic around them. Casting is the same, Controversies around the casting are the same, general expectancies are the same, and so on. They're even magical too since they're affected by SR and AMF just like spells. Think of them as a third category of magic: Arcane,Divine,Psionic.
It's more flexible, as generally you can pick what energy you'll blast with, and some of the powers have a different feel to them, like Psychic Reformation (lets you redo feat,skill and spell pickings over the last levels), and Strength of My Enemy(lets you gain str as you drain it off your victims).

Aeromyre
2010-06-30, 02:10 PM
Psionics (http://www.d20srd.org/) are spontaneous casters with a simpler power source. The powers themselves are no different than spells and as the system states, powers are just spells by other name.

If it was just me learning psionics I think it'd be fine but it'd have to be 6 people, which isn't fair to my players to add a who new magic system.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 02:12 PM
If it was just me learning psionics I think it'd be fine but it'd have to be 6 people, which isn't fair to my players to add a who new magic system.

Psionics is casting with mana.

Siosilvar
2010-06-30, 02:43 PM
Psionics is casting with mana.

And that's one of two things you need to know; the other is that you can't spend more mana/power points than your level on any one spell/power.

subject42
2010-06-30, 03:06 PM
Rogues. Think about it. In a world where magicians have the upper hand in any direct fight those without magic are going to learn to use stealth and surprise tactics.

Don't forget that Pathfinder rogues can get Magical Aptitude as a rogue talent, so even the melee classes can cast a bit.