Fantasy Worth Reading

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Alright, I'm in a mood to actual find some good fantasy. Despite the fact I write it, I've read very little comparatively. I think its actually helped keep my stuff fresh and semi-original. However, in the mood for something new.

I tend to prefer gritty fantasy/weird fiction over swords and sorcery, but if you think it's the best thing ever I'll try it out. Romance and monsters tends to be my favorite (not romantic with monsters, but romance where there is fighting and loving. The Village is my favorite film partially because of that).

My favorite fantasy includes Neverwhere, Nightwatch (Discworld), Sharing Knife series, Bas-Lag series, Chronicles of Narnia, and Ogre Ogre if that gives an indication of what I go for.

Authors I am aware of and have read most, if not all, fantasy from (though didn't necessarily enjoy) include:
J.R.R Tolkien
C.S. Lewis
Terry Pratchett
China Miéville
H.P. Lovecraft
Christopher Stasheff
Lois McMaster Bujold
Piers Anthony
Orson Scott Card
Neil Gaiman
Alan Dean Foster
Christopher Paolini
Stephenie Meyer
J. K. Rowling
Rick Yancey
Stephen King
Dean Koontz

I'm also well read in the classics such as Dracula, Grimm's Fairy Tales, Neverending Story, etc.

So if you have something not done by them, go for it. I am not interested in the Wheel of Time, D&D based books, or manga/anime.

Whatcha got?

[TheThan]

I notice a distinct lack of Robert E. Howard, on your list of fantasy authors. You should attempt to alleviate this situation.

[Serpentine]

Hmm. I would like to recommend Tamora Pierce, but, well, she writes for teenage girls (but I still think most teens should read her), and she's pretty definitely sword-and-sorcery. But you might find it interesting as feminist fantasy.

I loved Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, but again, it's pretty typical sword&sorcery.
Oh, I know: Tailchaser's Song by Tad Williams. It's a fantasy novel about cats. Normal, ordinary cats. The most "anthropomorphised" aspect of it is probably just that they're of human-like intelligence. But they're still just cats. You might also like to look for his Child of an Ancient City

You mentioned Stephen King, so I presume you've read The Dark Tower and Through the Eyes of the Dragon.

Odalisque by Fiona McIntosh might be up your alley. It's certainly gritty, and not too heavy on the fantasy aspect. But it's really, really brutal. It approaches torture porn, but unlike another book I've read that reaches and surpasses that point (if I can remember the name of it I'll list it here, but otherwise The Sword of Truth will do), it doesn't feel like it glorifies or fetishises it, just uses things that people really used to do to each other. Do not read if you hate books in which children die.

The Silver Crown is an interesting modern fantasy, by Robert C. O'Brien. Also by him, Mrs. Fisby and the Rats of NIMH - you might be familiar with the film. Not fantasy, but I think you'd like his Z for Zachariah, too.

Alphabet of Thorn by Patricia A. McKillip was an interesting sort of a fantasy novel.

Weaveworld by Clive Barker is also an interesting one.

That's all I can think of right now.

[KnightDisciple]

The Bahzell/War God series by David Weber. It's pretty good; it's actually part of the free Baen library. Only downside is that Weber had to put a hold on further writing, since it wasn't as profitable.

[Tackyhillbillu]

George RR Martin is missing from your list. He's about as gritty as you can get. I highly recommend him

[Knaight]

I'll second Tamora Pierce, and point out the lack of George R. R. Martin. Kudos on having Alan Dean Foster though, he isn't nearly as well known as he should be.

OK, so I'm a huge Alan Dean Foster nerd who has read just about every book. But the point stands.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

You mentioned Stephen King, so I presume you've read The Dark Tower and Through the Eyes of the Dragon.
Yeah, not a big fan of his stuff. The Green Mile is about all I really cared for of his.


Odalisque by Fiona McIntosh might be up your alley. It's certainly gritty, and not too heavy on the fantasy aspect. But it's really, really brutal. It approaches torture porn, but unlike another book I've read that reaches and surpasses that point (if I can remember the name of it I'll list it here, but otherwise The Sword of Truth will do), it doesn't feel like it glorifies or fetishises it, just uses things that people really used to do to each other. Do not read if you hate books in which children die.
Hmm, can't say as it appeals, but as long as it keeps it below the level of Perdido Street Station.

The single page describing the remade child whorehouse almost put me off what was otherwise a fascinating and well-written story. Nauseatingly unnecessary to have added.


OK, so I'm a huge Alan Dean Foster nerd who has read just about every book. But the point stands.
Yeah, is a a great writer. My favorite series of his was The Damned oddly enough, though Midworld stands out on its own. I was raised with sci-fi, so when they did fantasy books I usually checked them out.

[Gorgondantess]

That list does not include George R.R. Martin. I intend to remedy that.
Song of Ice and Fire series is as gritty as it gets, even if it's pretty much swords and sorcery (well, swords, at least). Highly recommend if you have the time to spare for 4 doorstoppers, and a 5th one which may or may not come out in the next 10 years.:smallsigh:

[warty goblin]

Hmm. I would like to recommend Tamora Pierce, but, well, she writes for teenage girls (but I still think most teens should read her), and she's pretty definitely sword-and-sorcery. But you might find it interesting as feminist fantasy.



On the subject of feminist fantasy, I recommend Firethorn by Sarah Micklem, a work that I can only describe as a deconstruction of the knight in shining armor combined with a romance novel, about three wheelbarrels full of grit, and some quite nice worldbuilding on the side. I realize that's not the most attractive of descriptions in many ways, but I found it to be a refreshingly different take on fantasy, and one that worked really remarkably well; in some ways better than the more traditional sorts of story in the genre.

I also recommend George RR Martin. He's usually gritty, and always romantic- particularly his older, science fiction stuff.

[Knaight]

Yeah, is a a great writer. My favorite series of his was The Damned oddly enough, though Midworld stands out on its own. I was raised with sci-fi, so when they did fantasy books I usually checked them out.

There is a lot to be said for For Love of Mother Not as well, but The Damned is among my favorites. I also like Journey of The Catechist, for that sword and sorcery feel, and of course there is the brilliance that is The Kingdoms of Light.

Really, my conclusion for why The Damned was your favorite: Its freaking awesome, 'nuff said.

[UnChosenOne]

You could try some stuff writen by Robert Holdstock like Ryhope Wood series and Merlin Codex, if you like from mythic fiction subgene.

[Deathslayer7]

Terry Goodkind and Terry Brooks.

Mainly the Sword of Truth series. Ignore Law of Nines. Not that great.

[Tavar]

Hmm. I would like to recommend Tamora Pierce, but, well, she writes for teenage girls (but I still think most teens should read her), and she's pretty definitely sword-and-sorcery. But you might find it interesting as feminist fantasy.
Hey. I enjoyed her works. Well, her The Immortals series, at least.

Weaveworld by Clive Barker is also an interesting one.


Might also try his Abarat series. It's young adult, but I find it's well written, and his illustrations are incredible.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

I'm going to add two more to the list, the first being Peter Straub. If you don't know, he's a horror writer, who focuses mainly on gothic horror, and was influenced largely by Lovecraft, and I think most would put him up there with Stephen King as one of the best contemporary horror writers. Personally, I think he's head and shoulders above King. I think he's a more accomplished writer, he's a far better storyteller as well (I also think he focuses in on more the psychological aspect of horror/terror more and better than King too, which I prefer). That opinion is only heightened after having read Cell a few years back. I'd recommend Ghost Story, which is was his first big success back in the late 70's, and I also really like The Hellfire club, Oh, and I'm almost done with Shadowland, his first book after Ghost Story, which I also enjoy among others.

I'd also like to put L.E. Modesitt Jr. (my favorite author) on the list, especially with the Saga of Recluce (which I believe to be at 15 books now). I've also read most of the Corean Chronicles of his too. All his stories are very character driven and have lots of character development, so if you like that, these are definitely books for you. Most of his worlds are rather low magic, but those who do wield said magic are/can be quite powerful. Overall, I highly recommend him.

@VT, I motion to strike Dean Koontz from your list. I have to say, he is quite possibly one of the worst writers I've ever read. Come to think of it, I don't really care for Harry Turtledove either, but I suppose if you like him he'd be another one to put on the list.

[Grimlock]

Ooooooh, I really don't like Terry Goodkind...but that is a discussion for another time. As with most other people I will second, (fourth/twelfth??) George RR Martin.

I would also recommend Steven Erikson's A Tale of the Malazan book of the Fallen series, starting with "Gardens of the Moon". He has currently just published book 9 of 10, (and he publishes regularly one book per year...take note George RR Martin). I loooove these books, (although they are flawed in places). Ian Cameront Esselmont has also written 2 books set in this world which are very worth reading!

ANother great book is "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss- a brilliant first book!

"The Lies of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch and the second of the series- "Under Red Skies" (I think)

"The Steel Remains" by Richard Morgan- a great SF author who has just written this, his first fantasy novel- sexually explicit in places- but a good book non the less.

[Ravens_cry]

I recommend Peter S. Beagle's The Last Unicorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Unicorn), there is something very mythic feeling about it, ancient and fey, yet deeply personal and human.

[zenanarchist]

Uh......Magician?

Raymond E Feist........

Only the best book ever!! :smallwink:

loved Pug, loved Midkemia, loved Thomas.

Pug's battle in the City of Magicians where he rained down fiery fury was epic.

[Satyr]

George Martin has written one of the best modern fantasy novels. He may write slowly, but the quality of his books are almost unachieved. He has also a talent to create quote-worthy oneliners which make totally sense in context and are very, very memorable.

Michael Moorcock (it's strange that nobody has mentioned him before) belongs to lists of classics. His Eternal Champions heroes (Elric, Corum, Erekose and Hawkmoon as the best known) are pretty awesome, the conflicts are epic, but the language is a bit pulpy.

Poul Anderson is another "classic" authors. I highly recomend his fantasy works, especially the Broken Sword. It's old and that is somewhat when compared to Martin or so, but it is really good.

Scott Lynch was already mentioned but should be repeated; A very new author, and a very talented one. The Locke Lamora books are gritty, yet humorous and they are quite intelligent.

Now, Joe Abercrombie has not been mentioned before (as far as I can see) and that's a pity. Like Martin and Lynch, Abercrombie can write about people as they are and not as they are supposed to be, giving his fantasy novels this extra touch of authenticity which is necessary for good fantasy to overcome the suspension of disbelief. His first trilogy, the First Law, is awesome and fun to read, despite the not really sympathetic main characters (they have their moments, and their reasons for their behavior, but every POV character has significant character flaws).

Richard Morgan's The Steel Remains is another book where you can easily really hate it or really love it. It is sometimes really, really bleak, and it is not a book for homophobics. Which is good, I guess, But I can see that there people who would be confused? offended? by the not really subtle description of very physical man on man sex.

I am also not sure what the appeal of the Malazan book is supposed to be. I found them to be convoluted and hard to follow, while not even particularly interesting. I tried to read the first book two times and gave up on it twice and that is usually not my style.

[Kaiser Omnik]

The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb is a favorite of mine; while the medieval setting may not seem overly original, the story itself is very well written, the characters feel real. It is definitely darker than most medieval fantasy and there is some romance. I'm not too good at this, so here's a better review (http://www.sfsite.com/04a/ques30.htm) of the books for you.

[Whoracle]

Seeing that Howard, Williams and Martin have already been mentioned:

Try Weiss & Hickman. NOT the Dragonlance books though, but the Deathgate Cycle.

[Serpentine]

Oh yes, of course. How could I forget Robin Hobb? I haven't read the third series, but I loved The Liveship Traders. As an aside, the ships are statted out in a Dragon magazine.

[factotum]

I got Guy Gavriel Kay, but don't get his first published stuff (the Fionavar trilogy)--they're OK, but a bit derivative. The later ones I've read (Tigana and A Song for Arbonne) are superb, though, and both take an unusual approach to fantasy that's quite refreshing.

[Grimlock]

"Tigana"- is a great book!
As are the Farseer books by Robin Hobb, I never got into the Liveship series, I don't know why- as it is set in the same world, but I just couldn't get into them.

I forgot about Joe Abercrombie. I've just bought his new one in paperback although I haven't read it yet, "Best Served Cold" I think it's called.

To echo Satyr's point about "The Steel Remains", I forgot that a lot of the sex in this is between gay characters, it doesn't bother me, but what does is the regularity of his sex scenes in all of his books. I've read all his SF too and he will have at least two graphic sex scenes per book (sometimes more); the first will be about 150 pages in than again at about page 250-300. I don't feel they add anything other than titilation which is a shame as I think his books are awsome! Especially the action sequences which are swift and brutal...and at the same time he creates characters which are believable and sympathetic, if not always likeable or admirable.

[Zexion]

Read the Gone books, by Michael Grant. It's really gritty, and some of the best fantasy I've ever read. :smalltongue:

[Jokasti]

I particularly enjoyed the Edge Chronicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge_Chronicles), although it's more set for children.

[Grimlock]

JUst thought of another one- Glenn Cook's Black Company series. I found them a bit hit and miss, but generally good and they're certainly grim and gritty fantasy.

[Melayl]

Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame and Keepers of the Hidden Ways series are good.

Jim Butcher's Dresden Files and Codex Alera series.

Steven R. Lawhead's Pendragon series.

Terry Brooks' Shannara series.

I like Mercedes Lackey's work as well. Most of them probably aren't as "gritty" as you're looking for, with the exception of her Obsidian Mountain Trilogy.

You'd probably like Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos Series as well.

If you don't mind me asking, what have you written, and where can we find it?

[Liffguard]

Daniel Abraham, The Long Price Quartet

This is an excellent series with several things going for it, most prominently the fact that it's finished. It can almost be described as "economic fantasy," exploring the actual economic and social consequences of powerful magic on a society. It follows two characters through their lives as their world goes through a great period of change.

The characters are extremely well written and the setting very well thought out. The series has a fascinating magic system with real consequences to the world. It's not a particularly "gritty" series but nor is it sunshine and rainbows. It's set in a world where most people are fundamentally good but terrible things still happen due to misunderstandings, conflicting goals and tragic flaws.

Personally, I rate it even higher than A Song of Ice and Fire. Very highly recommended.

[Brewdude]

A Song of Ice and Fire. George RR Martin. Check.
Dresden Files. Jim Butcher. Check.
The Black Company. Glen Cook. Check.

The Chronicles of Amber. Roger Zelazny. Missing! Add to list!
Cryptonomicon, The Baroque Cycle, Snow Crash. Neal Stephenson. Missing! Add to list!
Dune. Frank Herbert. Missing! Add if Science Fiction is allowed on list. Remove all other works by Frank Herbert, including sequels to Dune.

The xxx of Pern. Anne McCaffery. Missing! Add to taste. Decent. Required fantasy knowledge

Sword of Truth. That insane dude. WARNING Massive Author MORALITY PREACHING! Remove from list.
The Farseer Trilogy. Robin Hobb. Warning! MASSIVE Author MORALITY PREACHING! Remove from list.

that's it for now.

[Yoren]

R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing series is pretty decent. He's also written the first part of a sequal trilogy and he doesn't seem to be as slow as Martin so that's a plus.

[dish]

You like the Sharing Knife series, and mention Lois McMaster Bujold, so I just wanted to check that you've read her Chalion series. (If not, read it now.) And, of course, the Vorkosigan saga for space opera.

[Vaynor]

Weaveworld by Clive Barker is also an interesting one.

Damn you Serpentine, you beat me to it. :smalltongue:

*Points to avatar*, I'm a fan. I'd suggest the above (Weaveworld), as well as The Great and Secret Show and Everville (it's non-sequential sequel). And as also suggested, the Abarat series (Abarat/Days of Magic, Nights of War). Young adult but still very good. Illustrated by the author with his amazing artwork.

I think he's very much what you're looking for, gritty/weird fantasy. Be warned that his novels (except for his children's/young adult novels) can be very "adult", though. By far my favorite author of all time, I highly recommend his novels, The Great and Secret Show/Everville being my favorites.

[Knaight]

The Pyradine (I think, its been forever since I've read them) Chronicles are also worth reading. I can't recall the author's name.

[Aidan305]

I cannot recommend Patrick Rothfuss's "The Name of the Wind" and its subsequent, as yet unpublished, novels in the Kingkiller Saga enough(Yes, the first one's so good I'm recommending the later ones before they've even hit the shelves.)

[factotum]

Another one has just occurred to me--Rob Holdstock's "Mythago Wood". It appears to be set in the "real world" on the surface, but it sure don't stay that way for long!

[onthetown]

Garth Nix's "Sabriel" is a fantastic book that I just finished, and I hear the other two in the trilogy are just as good. It's dark with some aspects of an early English civilization and some good fantasy put together. Lots of death and evil things in it, if that's what you consider gritty.

I honestly couldn't put it down. It was incredible.

Tamora Pierce is great, but... yeah, she writes for teenage girls. I bought all of her books when I was 13 - 15 and I still read them every now and then. It's very creative, but it's definitely sword and sorcery stuff.

Mercedes Lackey... I read her Valdemar series which is definitely a high fantasy sort of thing, but she writes more modern fantasy books (like magic in this world sort of thing) and her Obsidian Trilogy is more sword and sorcery but also darker than some of her other stuff.

I've only read Dragonlance from Weis and Hickman, but people seem to love their other books as well.

I've got 300 books on my shelf, so I could go on, but those are the ones that really stand out to me.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Sword of Truth. That insane dude. WARNING Massive Author MORALITY PREACHING! Remove from list.
The Farseer Trilogy. Robin Hobb. Warning! MASSIVE Author MORALITY PREACHING! Remove from list.

that's it for now.

Ok, this is not constructive criticism. I never personally saw that massive preaching in Robin Hobb's books, and if it was there I was never bothered by it. Don't ask people to turn away from books they might potentially enjoy as fantasy, good storytelling and worldbuilding just because you don't like the morality that's presented in there and you judge it's "preaching massively", and thus has no redeeming quality. It's really not helping anybody.

[WalkingTarget]

I'll second Steven Brust and Roger Zelazny, with some additional info.

Zelazny wrote a lot more than the Amber books, and while they are well-known, I enjoyed the stand alone book Lord of Light more.

Brust's books about Vlad are in a contemporary style even though they're set in a seemingly fantasy setting (much like Zelazny's writing). He's got a second series in the same setting (set prior to these) that are deliberately patterned on Alexandre Dumas' books about d'Artagnan and his friends. There's also a stand alone book that's a mixture of the same setting, Hungarian fairy tale, Grateful Dead references/Hungarian language in-jokes, and (if you look for it, though you don't have to) socialist allegory. He's also written a number of unrelated books, but I haven't gotten around to reading all of them yet (I've enjoyed the ones I have read, though).

[Optimystik]

I am not interested in the Wheel of Time

May I ask why? Seriously, it's an amazing fantasy series, though heavy on the humans.

[Serpentine]

It's also ridiculously long, and full of despicable characters

[The Vorpal Tribble]

@VT, I motion to strike Dean Koontz from your list. I have to say, he is quite possibly one of the worst writers I've ever read. Come to think of it, I don't really care for Harry Turtledove either, but I suppose if you like him he'd be another one to put on the list.
I didn't like all of those on the list of authors, just that I'd read them so no need for others to recommend.


Song of Ice and Fire series is as gritty as it gets, even if it's pretty much swords and sorcery (well, swords, at least).
You're like the 10th person to recommend that, so it's either good or a cult following. Will try it out either way.


There is a lot to be said for For Love of Mother Not as well
Oh yeah, the Flinx books were great... but got less so as the series went on it seemed. I do enjoy reading the other Commonwealths that are tying it all in together (if ever he'd bring it to a friggin' head). Between the sentient planet, the howling stones, the builders, the flying whales and Flinx they seem prepped to do battle with the Nothingness.


You could try some stuff writen by Robert Holdstock like Ryhope Wood series and Merlin Codex, if you like from mythic fiction subgene.

Steven R. Lawhead's Pendragon series.
I like mythic fiction/alternative history, etc... but I've read a total of only one book based on Arthur/Merlin/Knights of the Round Table that I enjoyed. It was That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis. Even it wasn't based so much as influenced.

Otherwise when I hear the names 'Arthur' or 'Merlin' I groan. The Once and Future King was boring and horribly written in my opinion yet I still hear what an awesome classic it was. Blech.



Dune. Frank Herbert. Missing! Add if Science Fiction is allowed on list. Remove all other works by Frank Herbert, including sequels to Dune.

The xxx of Pern. Anne McCaffery. Missing! Add to taste. Decent. Required fantasy knowledge
No, no sci-fi. I've read probably every sci-fi of note written since 1890.

Read all of Pern, but it's sci-fi as well. That series was kind of hit or miss for me and had rather agonizing sections that eventually turned me off it. Not a big fan of dragons either.

I've also read every Dune-based book by Frank Herbert and his son's. Dune, Children of Dune and Dune Messiah are great. Will not read past those ever again. They do not exist.


Sword of Truth
I've watched The Seeker television show and it never appealed greatly. Was just a tad agonizing like much mainstream fantasy.


You like the Sharing Knife series, and mention Lois McMaster Bujold, so I just wanted to check that you've read her Chalion series. (If not, read it now.) And, of course, the Vorkosigan saga for space opera.
I've read the entire series of those, yes, but oddly enough wasn't all that impressed. The Sharing Knife seems to be the best.

Basically when I was 13 (13 years ago as well) my Dad gave me three bins of over a thousand books and said 'you can read these now'. Sci-fi and pulp fiction from his college days and beyond (yeah, read every Doc Savage ever published), with a sprinkling of fantasy as well. I read most of them within a few years and was a fan of many and followed them. As I grew up I realized I didn't like some of them all that much, they just seemed awesome as a teen. Her books were one of them.


To echo Satyr's point about "The Steel Remains", I forgot that a lot of the sex in this is between gay characters, it doesn't bother me, but what does is the regularity of his sex scenes in all of his books. I've read all his SF too and he will have at least two graphic sex scenes per book (sometimes more)
See, that turns me off completely.

I'm not like a lot of folks who read fantasy as a sort of release or for escapism. I know exactly what you're talking about, having read quite a few books of that sort, but I don't need the sex to enjoy it, especially when it's often added simply as literary masturbation. Throw in the fact that when it's between gay characters the writers tend to be trying to be 'cutting edge and with the times!' more than because it really makes sense with the story. It so gratuitous even if it appealed (which it doesn't).

I read because I like a damn good story to entertain me and make me think. Soap operas in written form is still a soap opera.

[valadil]

Here's an 11th for Song of Ice and Fire. I'll babble if you want, but there's a lot of good recommendations here already. What I liked about it was that it was more about the characters and their politics than any fantastical elements.

I'll third Dresden Files. It's fantasy noir in a modern world. I didn't have high hopes for this, but it was a very pleasant surprise. I've only finished the first book, but I'm waiting on more showing up.

Name of the Wind is also amazing. The start is a little slow. You'll see why if you pick it up. As a writer I think you'll be amused by some of the humor in it. The narrator in the book makes a lot of effort to tell you how this isn't your standard story or fairy tale.

Finally, Mistborn is awesome. I was a little biased against it because Sanderson took over Wheel of Time (and I hate WoT with a passion). But it was a pretty decent trilogy. *Everything* made sense in the end. I'm not used to fantasy worlds getting wrapped up so neatly. Oh and the magic in the books actually made sense.

[Eldan]

The interesting thing about the Dresden Files? Well, the author described it himself int he back of one of the books.

He wanted to write epic Sword&Sorcery in fantasy worlds, and no publisher would take his books. So someone (a professor, I think, though I don't remember) suggested to write something like the Dresden Files.

Butcher disliked the idea, and wrote the first Dresden File just to show how utterly formulaic a book series like that would be. And it became a hit.

Now, don't let that description turn you off: they are very amusing to read. Short, too, so I breezed through them in about two, three days per book, but very worth it.

[Optimystik]

It's also ridiculously long, and full of despicable characters

Shouldn't novels be long? If I just wanted a quick narrative diversion, there are tons of short story anthologies I can read instead.

The only character I would call "despicable" is Faile, and she's generally accepted to be a Scrappy anyway. The rest all have great depth, and the magic system is top-notch.


You're like the 10th person to recommend that, so it's either good or a cult following. Will try it out either way.

Put me down as 12.

Also, the author (GRRM) loves Robert Jordan's work, so I'd definitely give WoT a chance as well.

[factotum]

I like mythic fiction/alternative history, etc... but I've read a total of only one book based on Arthur/Merlin/Knights of the Round Table that I enjoyed. It was That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis. Even it wasn't based so much as influenced.


I'll just mention in passing that Holdstock's "Mythago Wood" and "Lavondyss" are not Arthurian. I can't even remember if King Arthur makes and appearance in either of them--he certainly could, because of the basic idea of the setting, but if he does it isn't like he's the main character. So, don't discount Holdstock just because somebody mentioned he wrote some Arthurian stuff once!

[Cyrion]

I'll second the Mistborn Trilogy, especially for a well-constructed magic system.

Some others that nobody's mentioned yet:

Melanie Rawn's Dragon Prince. The first book, especially, is excellent. Very good character development and fun political plotting. The first book can stand alone, but after that she mastered the cliff hanger and if you read book two you need to finish the six book series to get to a good ending.

Katherine Kurtz's Deryni series. It's gritty from the perspective of the depth of the religious persecution and bigotry of some of its characters, but there's also a beauty to the faith of people like Duncan and Arilan that acts as a counterbalance. You'd probably want to start with either Deryni Rising or Camber of Culdi. There's a fair amount of love- requited, unrequited, and tragic.

Charles de Lint tends toward modern urban fantasy. I don't know that it's gritty or really much about love, but it's got a flavor that others have tried to mimic but is pretty unique.

Tanith Lee- Some of her stuff (The Birthgrave trilogy, the Storm Lord) is very pulp fiction a la Conan etc. Some of her other stuff is... different. Good ones to check out might be Lycanthia, Cyrion or Death's Master (I think that's the first in the series- if not then it's Night's Master).

A couple of one off's- Swordspoint by Kushner and War for the Oaks by Emma Bull.

[KnightDisciple]

I like mythic fiction/alternative history, etc... but I've read a total of only one book based on Arthur/Merlin/Knights of the Round Table that I enjoyed. It was That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis. Even it wasn't based so much as influenced.

Otherwise when I hear the names 'Arthur' or 'Merlin' I groan. The Once and Future King was boring and horribly written in my opinion yet I still hear what an awesome classic it was. Blech.Seriously, give Lawhead a shot. His Pendragon series is really quite good, and rather well written. It's a very different take on Merlin, and he ties Atlantis into things. The whole series is basically my personal canon for Arthur.:smallbiggrin:

I'll chime in on the Butcher recommendations. The Dresden series is good; it takes a couple books to really find its feet, but by book 4, the series really hits its stride. He's about halfway through the series, and we're on book 12. The really nice thing is that Butcher's a freaking machine; you will have a Dresden book every year. Period. Plus another book. And Codex Alera is a great series made from a couple random plot ideas thrown together and mixed thoroughly. It's a complete series, as well; 6 books, all told.

I'll re-state and expand on my David Weber mention. The Bahzell/War God series is fairly traditional fantasy, but it has some interesting wrinkles. And the best reluctant paladin ever. Not as gritty as some works, but I'm going to recommend it anyways.:smalltongue: It'd do you good to branch out.:smallwink:

[endoperez]

I haven't read more than one book in the Amber series, but I have to say some of Roger Zelazny's other books are really great. I really like Lord Demon; while it has a romantic element it's quite downplayed. In true Zelazny fashion, gods and godlike beings wage supernatural wars, and amidst the supernatural plots they deal with human emotions.

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell takes place during Napoleonic war, in Britain where magic existed but was lost, and it's written with a unique style. Definitely not sword & sorcery! These mages are also members of a class that's expected to be sociable and be seen, and there are no adventurers or dragons. Only one mage does anything in the war, and he's in support role and leaves the fighting to the soldiers. Of the two titular mages, Jonathan Strange is introduced trying to impress a woman, and his half of the story is, at times, romantic.

Gene Wolfe has written some very engaging books. It reminds me a bit of China Mieville's style, very heavy at times, really imaginative most of the time, and unfortunately, really uncomfortable at times. I didn't really like the New Sun books (where the protagonist is a torturer, yuck), but The Knight and The Wizard didn't go too dark IMO. I did consider putting the book down when it started talking about the origins of some half-breeds, but thankfully the story didn't go that direction. The story is basically a sword&sorcery book from the POV of a protagonist-narrator who's afraid at times, foolish at times, and who tries to hold to an impossible ideal of a perfect knight.

I looked at the Prince of Nothing series recently, and that seems to be way too dark for me. Lots of violence and such. I've heard good things otherwise, just a word of warning.

At least the first two Dresden Files books were so formulaic that I haven't bothered with the third. I've heard that it "really picks up with the third one", so I suggest that you start with that straight away.
The Name of the Wind was nice. Basically, it's about a bard with a severe case of bad luck. All of his adventures are narrated by his older self, already a reknowned and troubled hero, a legend who tried to hide and retire. It's mostly the same old derring-do, but told by a good storyteller.

When I tried reading Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders, it felt really slow, like swimming through tar. It might pick it up at some point, but that didn't come until I gave up. I also disliked how one guy started with his objectives opposing those of the protagonists, and stripped of character until all that was left were things for the protagonists to loathe and goals for them to oppose. I didn't read the whole of it, so it might pick up and I have heard lots of praise for them. I enjoyed the Farseer (also known as Assassin) trilogy when I was younger, but I haven't read it in ages.

The Magician (also as Magician: Apprentice and Magician: Master) by Raymond E. Feist is quite nice. Young boys growing up into heroes, war, destinies, love, blablabla. Written well enough, the world of the alien invaders is fresh, and the contrasts between the different worlds and viewpoints are quite interesting. Unfortunately I didn't find the books focused solely on the politics of this other world, Kelewan, as interesting. They'd start with The Daughter of the Empire, and explore social, personal and political plots in an eccentric world that manages to be different despite the strangers being humans.

Garth Nix's "Sabriel" - nice ideas and a nice book if read on its own, but I didn't read the whole trilogy. IIRC, the second book felt too much like a simple rehashing. Stll, it's rare to have a female necromancer as a protagonist and the magical ideas were nice.

Holdstock does have some interesting stuff, and it's definitely not all Arthurian. Mythago Wood is as much about the weird forest as it's about the characters, and it's stocked full of references to stories and myths; even if Arthur or a knight pops up, he'd likely be a threat to avoid. There are some similarities to Neverwhere, but I haven't looked further into that.

David Gemmel's Legend was nice. Basically, it's about a badass warrior who's grown old, and it tells how badass he still is, and his last fight as a group of poorly trained soldiers try to hold a magnificent but undermanned fortress against "mongolian" hordes. Nothing new, but I enjoyed the over-the-top flare, so could be worth reading. Again, the rest of the books might not keep your interest up, but a great book if read on its own.

Not to be confused with Matheson's "I am Legend", about the last man (or is he?) in the world of vampires. The reveal must've worked a lot better decades ago, because the idea was pretty tired by now, but the book still manages to convey what it was written to convey. The loneliness, the desperation, the madness, and how it all changes how you see things.

Diana Wynne Jones' young adult books strike a chord with me, for some reason. Dark Lord of Derkholm tells the story of a fantasy world turned tourist attraction, and Howl's Flying Castle got turned into an animated film.

[puppyavenger]

I'd strongly suggest anything by Zelazny, all the works by him I've read were very engaging and enjoyable. I especially liked the first five books of the Chronicles of Amber (Starts as dynastic politics of the Lords of Reality and goes up form their), Lord of Light (which may count as sci-fi, but it's one of those fantasy books that's only sci-fi because it turns out magic is actually super-high tech. Very nice ot see a fantasy setting based on Hindu mythology as well) and Shadowjack (which I really need to find a copy of for sale)

Also, I thirteenth GRRM, ASoIaF is about gritty as physically possible, and very good.

[Mordar]

The Pyradine (I think, its been forever since I've read them) Chronicles are also worth reading. I can't recall the author's name.

I think you're referring to Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain" (series name is flipflopable - Starts with The Book of Three and The Black Cauldron). Certainly both excellent and influential, but targeted to the younger set of a different time.

I really liked a lot of the Kenneth Flint books - his Sidhe series (Riders/Champions/Master of the...), and the Challenge of the Clans series (CotC, Storm Shield, Dark Druid...I think there were a couple more. Very enjoyable, as I recall...full of Celtic myth, mysticism and vigor. If you're looking for something to "deconstruct", though, they're probably not the books for you.

- M

[mallorean_thug]

After some recent frustrations experiences, I would recommend that you do not start any work that is not complete in some form or another, or worth it as a stand alone experience. I'm mentioning this because of the massive amount of love this board seems to have for George R.R. Martin. About a year and a half ago I would be chiming in with them, but now with it being nearly 10 years since we've seen certain characters because of how he structured the last book, I've decided to no longer recommend, and actively unrecommend, A Song of Ice and Fire until he finishes all of it. (Something I'm also doing for Wheel of Time, and Rothfoss's supposed Kingkiller chronicles)

So, with that in mind, let me recommend a couple of works that have been published in their entirety since the last Song of Ice and Fire book and deserve some praise (I believe all of them have been mentioned upthread, so just see this as a long seconding post):

Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy + In universe Standalones (4 soon to be 5 books) : The First Law trilogy, starting with The Blade Itself, is great character based fantasy, despite the sometimes unsympathetic lot of characters. He has a ton of fun deconstructing quite a few fantasy tropes along the way as well. Best Served Cold follows different characters in the same world but is its own complete story, as will be The Heroes, when its published in January.

Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy (three books): Great setting and very well worked out magic system(s). Not a fan of Sanderson's characterizations, but man can he meticulously plot out details.

Scot Lynch's Gentleman Bastards series (ongoing but each work so far works as a standalone read, 2 so far): Think Ocean's Eleven meets typical fantasy Italian City state settings. Fun memorable characters, fun plots, just not sure where he's going to take all of it later on in the series.


And while they haven't been published since the Last Song of Ice and Fire, let me also second:

R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy (Part of his as yet incomplete Second Apocalypse cycle, but the trilogy works by itself, 3 books): Can be snarkily described as "Kung fu Jesus takes over the First Crusade", but that wouldn't nearly capture how dark and interesting it is. Definitely what happens when you have a philosophy major write a fantasy trilogy.

Susanna Clark's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel (one book standalone): well, I don't think I can describe it any better than endoperez just did three posts ago. Starts slow, but picks up as soon as the titular Jonathan Strange joins Mr. Norrel on the stage.

[Deathslayer7]

I've watched The Seeker television show and it never appealed greatly. Was just a tad agonizing like much mainstream fantasy.


ok just to note: the series went off on a different direction from the books since the first episode and is not related at all to the books except for some of the character's. While Goodkind does have a moral preaching in it, it is still a good series if you just ignore it (and most of the preaching doesnt start till Faith of the Fallen). The first book Wizard's First Rule is one of the best of the entire series. If you like that then I suggest you continue reading the series. It's really a like/hate it type of series. Although after Pillars of Creation it does get a tad redundant.

The other controversial book is Faith of the Fallen. That too is like it or hate it. Many people just can't seem to get past the fact of his moral preachings.

But either way I strongly suggest you at least pick up Wizard's First Rule. Very good book. You shall not be dissapointed in that. :smallsmile:

[JonestheSpy]

Hmm, lots of good stuff on the recommendations, lots of stuff I regard as dreck.

Major shout outs for Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles - 'young adult' but definitely still enjoyable for all ages. Also for Jonathon Strange an Mr. Norrel, my vote for the absolute best fantasy written since Lord of the Rings.

Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock are two old-school masters of the genre of heroic fantasy - their books are some of the major inspirations for the original D&D as envisioned by Gary Gygax.

But the Old Master that VP really needs to check out is Fritz Lieber (another huge Gygax influence, btw). A wonderfully skilled writer whose series about the swordsmen Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser is exactly what he's looking for. Action and adventure in a weird, dirty world heavily influenced by Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith, with truly disturbing, horrifying things lurking in the dark places, whether in the remote corners of the world or in the sub-basements of Lankhmar, his world's greatest city and the inspiration of at least 3/4 of all the fantasy cities that have been created after.

Also needing mention Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea books, source of the first actual school for wizards, and China Mieville's Perdido Street Station and sequels, surely the grittiest thing to come down the pike in a long time.

[Britter]

I know they have already been mentioned, but I feel that The Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Sea Under Red Sky need to be mentioned again. Just wonderful books, in my opinion. Interesting setting, interesting characters, gritty and entertaining and well fleshed out. Some of the most enjoyable fiction I have ever read.

[Edge]

Andrzej Sapkowski's Witcher series is a good grittier series. Originally written in Polish, they're currently undergoing translation due to the popularity of the PC game based on them. Look out for The Last Wish, a compilation of short stories (a good way to get a feel for the series) and Blood of Elves.

[factotum]

Diana Wynne Jones' young adult books strike a chord with me, for some reason. Dark Lord of Derkholm tells the story of a fantasy world turned tourist attraction, and Howl's Flying Castle got turned into an animated film.

One thing of hers that's definitely worth reading, although it isn't a novel, is "The Tough Guide to Fantasyland". Imagine a guidebook written for holidaymakers to the most cliched fantasy realm ever and you'll get the idea. If nothing else, as an author yourself it'll give you an idea which cliches to avoid!

[Cespenar]

So many suggestions and no David Eddings? Both The Elenium and The Tamuli trilogies are amongst the best fantasy books I've ever read.

Can't also pass by without seconding (only seconding?) the Death Gate Cycle by Weis & Hickman.

[Optimystik]

While we have the fantasy connoisseurs in one thread... How are the Eberron books? I love the setting and would like to see if any of the (3.5) fiction measures up to it's example.

[Cyrion]

So many suggestions and no David Eddings? Both The Elenium and The Tamuli trilogies are amongst the best fantasy books I've ever read.



My problem is that I'm divided on Eddings. I think he tells a good tale, and he's got funny dialog, but he found his trick pony and rode it to death. If you like what he does you've got a long bookshelf of good stuff, but I wanted him to do something/someone different. Per the OPs criteria: Grit- absent; Romance- hit or miss; Monsters- Occasional (though quite prominent in the Elenium).

[Quincunx]

STRONGLY second recommendation for Peter S. Beagle. . .well, anything really. I figure you have a 90% chance of loving his style and a 10% chance of casting him down into the void of those who tried and failed--no apathy either way. I get the same atmosphere from what I've read of his as I get from your own work, but in novel form instead of game form.

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is written in an old-fashioned (I want to say Victorian, but that's not quite true. Let's just say "not wholly modern") way, and that makes the storytelling drag. It is fantastic but would never land in the fantasy/sci-fi sorting bin. For the organic weirdness of much of the magical effects, though, I think the others were correct to recommend it. It won't make you think. It may entertain you.

[Serpentine]

Shouldn't novels be long? If I just wanted a quick narrative diversion, there are tons of short story anthologies I can read instead.

The only character I would call "despicable" is Faile, and she's generally accepted to be a Scrappy anyway. The rest all have great depth, and the magic system is top-notch.Not the individual novels - they were a fine length - but the series as a whole. Has it even finished yet?
All the women were self-centred self-righteous conniving bitches, and all the men were arrogant, selfish, pigheaded richard-heads. There was one exception in each sex, and they were both well on their way to joining the others. I stopped reading whenthe "hero" demanded a long bath and gallons of water to drink from his adoring people who lived in a desert and had to hoard every precious drop of water just for their most basic survival.Maybe they start becoming decent human beings after that, but for all it's nice to have flaws in characters it's also nice if they're at least a little bit likable.
Other than that, I think they were pretty decent books and had a pretty neat mythos, so if it going on and on and on, and having horrible characters doesn't bother you, go ahead.

[Tackyhillbillu]

WoT lost my interest. Honestly, I never liked Rand. Mat, Thom, and some of the other characters were always the ones that kept me interested. But then they started vanishing from the plot for a long time, and changing to be just as whiny and annoying as Rand could be.

[Optimystik]

Not the individual novels - they were a fine length - but the series as a whole. Has it even finished yet?

No, it is ongoing, despite the author's death. His successor has improved the series in some ways and taken a step back in others, so the quality is about the same. (Less page-long descriptions of dresses, but a touch more silliness. Still, it adds to the funny, so YMMV.)


All the women were self-centred self-righteous conniving bitches, and all the men were arrogant, selfish, pigheaded richard-heads. There was one exception in each sex, and they were both well on their way to joining the others.

That's not true at all; the Aes Sedai are justified in being manipulative and entitled, but they are just one set of women. Other groups of women - e.g. the Maidens, the Kin, the Wise Ones - are much more practical and reasonable, and two of those use magic as well.

As for the men - most of them have been subjugated for centuries (again, primarily by Aes Sedai) and are only now beginning to come into their own. Having your entire gender kept from doing magic that long tends to put you at a political disadvantage.


I stopped reading whenthe "hero" demanded a long bath and gallons of water to drink from his adoring people who lived in a desert and had to hoard every precious drop of water just for their most basic survival.Maybe they start becoming decent human beings after that, but for all it's nice to have flaws in characters it's also nice if they're at least a little bit likable.

He made it rain, you know. :smallannoyed: As in, for the first time in their entire lives. I'd call that fairly decent.


Other than that, I think they were pretty decent books and had a pretty neat mythos, so if it going on and on and on, and having horrible characters doesn't bother you, go ahead.

No offense meant Serp; but having stopped reading the books not even halfway through, I'm not sure it's fair for you to judge a subject you don't seem to be very familiar with.

[Zea mays]

Urm, how about some Philip Pullman? He definitely needs to get over himself, but His Dark Materials trilogy is still very worth reading.

Another vote for The Chronicles of Prydain even though it is aimed at a younger audience.

[Serpentine]

That was... what, four or five large novels in? I think I held out for a pretty damn long time before giving up on it. There are plenty of other books, with equally good mythos and much more relatable characters, I can be reading instead.

[Optimystik]

That was... what, four or five large novels in?

Like I said, less than halfway.

But I respect your decision, even if I disagree with it (thoroughly.)

[Melayl]

The Pendragon books don't really get near the Arthur legends until book 3 (of 4). The first two are about Merlin's parents and Merlin himself (with a quite different take on Merlin, in my opinion).

I'd also recommend Jennifer Roberson's Chronicles of the Cheysuli, and second the Dyrni books, and the Prydain Chronicles.

Also Mercedes Lackey's Heirs of Alexandria series.

[Wandiya]

May I suggest the Thomas Covenant Chronicles.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is a fantasy series written by Stephen R. Donaldson that tends to lean far toward the cynical side of the Sliding Scale Of Idealism Versus Cynicism.

Thomas Covenant, a bitter, divorced leper shunned by his community due to his illness, finds himself transported into a fantasy world called rather unintuitively "The Land" where the (good, nice, hospitable) people treat him as The Chosen One, tell him that the wedding ring he still hangs to is a magical artifact of unparalleled power, and expect him to save the world. Covenant, however, refuses to play along, insisting that the fantasy world is All Just A Dream. It doesn't help that the highly competent main villain, Lord Foul, is a master of the Xanatos Gambit and usually several steps ahead of the good guys.
There is also a second series and a partly completed 3rd series.

[Serpentine]

Like I said, less than halfway.

But I respect your decision, even if I disagree with it (thoroughly.)Are you serious? I should read more than a dozen hefty novels that absolutely infuriated me before my opinions of it may be given any weight? Would you expect someone to watch every single season of Lost before you allow them to decide that a show full of convoluted weirdness and unexplained mysteries isn't for them?

[Temotei]

Brent Weeks's Night Angel Trilogy is excellent. They're my favorite books. :smallcool:

[Douglas]

Finally, Mistborn is awesome. I was a little biased against it because Sanderson took over Wheel of Time (and I hate WoT with a passion). But it was a pretty decent trilogy. *Everything* made sense in the end. I'm not used to fantasy worlds getting wrapped up so neatly. Oh and the magic in the books actually made sense.
I'll add my weight to that recommendation (that makes 4, I think).

Sanderson is a master of twist endings that catch you completely by surprise but make absolutely perfect sense and make you realize after the fact that he really did plant gazillions of hints about it. His magic systems are logical, consistent, powerful, and anything but the all too common "magic can do anything" type. His characterization and plotting are excellent, he turns major common tropes on their heads, and his descriptions are good without being excessively long and overly detailed. He is the only author I would buy a book by without knowing anything at all about it other than that he wrote it.

As for weird: You know that trope about how a Great Prophesied Hero will rise up and Save The World from the BBEG? That happened 1000 years ago. The hero failed.
Gritty: The first line of the book is "Ash fell from the sky."

So, yeah. Read Mistborn, it's a great trilogy. Then read the rest of Brandon Sanderson's books.

[KnightDisciple]

The Pendragon books don't really get near the Arthur legends until book 3 (of 4). The first two are about Merlin's parents and Merlin himself (with a quite different take on Merlin, in my opinion). Which is part of the appeal. But it's 5 books. Well, technically, 6, but the 6th was...yeah. No need to read it.

But 3 of the 5 books are about Arthur. And a book for Merlin isn't a bad thing at all; Merlin's pretty boss in this series. In fact, his book is definitely pretty grim, all told.

[Melayl]

Which is part of the appeal. But it's 5 books. Well, technically, 6, but the 6th was...yeah. No need to read it.

But 3 of the 5 books are about Arthur. And a book for Merlin isn't a bad thing at all; Merlin's pretty boss in this series. In fact, his book is definitely pretty grim, all told.

Six? Really. Hmm... I only knew about 4. Granted, the last time I read them was 10 or so years ago.

[Optimystik]

Are you serious? I should read more than a dozen hefty novels that absolutely infuriated me before my opinions of it may be given any weight? Would you expect someone to watch every single season of Lost before you allow them to decide that a show full of convoluted weirdness and unexplained mysteries isn't for them?

I have no problem with you deciding it isn't for you. But dismissing characters as poorly developed while they are still being developed strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.

In any case, my goal was never to convert you; merely to propose a fantasy series that I (and many, many others) consider to be stellar. Therefore I have nothing more to add to this argument; you go your way, and I'll go mine.

[Serpentine]

It took something in the viscinity of more than 5 books for those characters to be developed into something I could actually like. Hell, I'm not really saying they were "poorly developed", just that they were horrible people. In that regard, I suppose they were well developed. I just got sick of reading about them. I have absolutely no regrets about putting it down when I got sick of it - as, too, I do not blame endoperez for giving up on Liveship Traders after, I presume, several chapters when it was going too slow for him. Nor do I feel any any doubt about my qualifications in telling anyone who might be thinking of reading them that 1. the books are going on for a very long time, and 2. after reading several entire books I only found the characters to be getting worse and more despicable, and so discourage anyone who prefers their characters to be likable from picking them up.

You may not have wanted to convert me, but you did tell me that my opinion didn't matter because I didn't read all of them. Thusly:

No offense meant Serp; but having stopped reading the books not even halfway through, I'm not sure it's fair for you to judge a subject you don't seem to be very familiar with.

[Grimlock]

I'll echo the Mistborn trilogy!
A good series- also nice that a fantasy writer can wrap things up in a trilogy. Don't get me wrong, I like sprawling epics some of the time, but it is nice to get a more condensed story!

[Eldan]

I'll add my weight to that recommendation (that makes 4, I think).

Sanderson is a master of twist endings that catch you completely by surprise but make absolutely perfect sense and make you realize after the fact that he really did plant gazillions of hints about it.

Bwah?
I only read Elantris, but come on. That was signaled from a mile away. Every part of it.


If you put a gigantic chasm on a world map, it's important. Then you mention that every magical sigil is based on the shape of the land. Then every protagonist acts surprised after that is the solution to the problem. And an entire civilization of mages couldn't figure it outl

Mind you, I still liked the book.

[Cespenar]

My problem is that I'm divided on Eddings. I think he tells a good tale, and he's got funny dialog, but he found his trick pony and rode it to death. If you like what he does you've got a long bookshelf of good stuff, but I wanted him to do something/someone different. Per the OPs criteria: Grit- absent; Romance- hit or miss; Monsters- Occasional (though quite prominent in the Elenium).

So just pick a trilogy or two and leave it there. He may have been repeating himself, sure, but that doesn't mean the individual books are in any way bad.

[Douglas]

Bwah?
I only read Elantris, but come on. That was signaled from a mile away. Every part of it.


If you put a gigantic chasm on a world map, it's important. Then you mention that every magical sigil is based on the shape of the land. Then every protagonist acts surprised after that is the solution to the problem. And an entire civilization of mages couldn't figure it outl

Mind you, I still liked the book.
The ones in Mistborn and Warbreaker are a lot less obvious than that one. And, while I did guess well in advance of the reveal that the Chasm might be the cause, I don't think I figured out ahead of time that the city of Elantris itself was a gigantic Aon.

Also, I don't think the Elantrians ever really got the chance to figure it out. Their servants and neighbors panicked too quickly, and the collapse of the whole city happened significantly earlier than news of the Chasm could reach that area. There was, I think, a several days period where nobody actually near Elantris knew about the Chasm, but everyone did know that the "gods" had suddenly become powerless and cursed. By the time enough information could have reached the Elantrians for them to figure it out, they were already overthrown, brutalized by rampaging fearful mobs, and too lost in the pain of their new never-healing wounds to do anything.

[Eldan]

Actually...

The first thing I usually do when reading a fantasy novel is scanning the map in detail. Maps fascinate me. Place names the novel might visit, city plans...

And, well, one of the first things I noticed was "this city has a very unusual shape". Then I went on to look at the magic system. So I was actually surprised when characters in the novels didn't know it.

[Smiling Knight]

Jumping on the Martin bandwagon.

Joe Abercrombie is fast-paced, darkly humorous, and has great characters. Glokta is the most sympathetic torturer you will ever meet.

The Lies of Locke Lamora by Lynch is a fun, unique read with a healthy dose of Ocean's Eleven.

Brandon Sanderson0 Elantris was blurgh, but Mistborn and Warbreaker are miles ahead. I was surprised by how much he improved.

The Prince of Nother, by Bakker, is very interesting, but the characters, while deep, were not created to be likable, and you better like philosophy.

[factotum]

Actually...

The first thing I usually do when reading a fantasy novel is scanning the map in detail. Maps fascinate me. Place names the novel might visit, city plans...

And, well, one of the first things I noticed was "this city has a very unusual shape". Then I went on to look at the magic system. So I was actually surprised when characters in the novels didn't know it.


I've not read this thing myself, but do they actually have accurate maps in this world? After all, you look at most maps made in the mediaeval period in real life, they don't bear much relation to what's actually on the ground!

[Douglas]

Actually...

The first thing I usually do when reading a fantasy novel is scanning the map in detail. Maps fascinate me. Place names the novel might visit, city plans...

And, well, one of the first things I noticed was "this city has a very unusual shape". Then I went on to look at the magic system. So I was actually surprised when characters in the novels didn't know it.

Fair enough, though I think it's reasonably justified by the combination of maps like that probably being rare (particularly really accurate ones, modern technology has done wonders for mapmaking) and the mental block of everyone being so completely used to thinking of Aons as being small things you write on paper.

The real thing to keep in mind, though, is that Elantris is his very first published novel. Of all the books he's published so far, it is the worst, the lowest quality. He has improved a lot since then, and is still improving. With Mistborn and Warbreaker, it is definitely possible to guess the twist in advance, but the clues are significantly less blatant and from my experience and what I've heard most readers only figure them all out in hindsight. Plus, they're just really good books.

[Knaight]

I would disagree with that. I liked Elantris far more than the Mistborn trilogy, I felt that overall the characters were more interesting, which is huge, and also that the conflicts in the book were less cliched. Don't get me wrong, Mistborn is a good series with some interesting characters (Kelsier and his brother for example), but calling Elantris his worst book is questionable.

On reccomendations, I will second His Dark Materials. Its a really good series, and the reputation it has as heavy handed is largely undeserved.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

If you don't mind me asking, what have you written, and where can we find it?
I've done a little of everything, though been too busy staying alive to actually finish a novel. If you want random fantasy I have available online you can take a look through my links in my signature, Homebrew Compendium and A Dying Ember in particular.

Can also check out Whispers of the Bards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2112426#post2112426) for a handful of rough short stories.

I was the head journalist for a music magazine, but I recently quit. Here are a few articles of mine available online:
Alexx Calise (http://www.musicsrisingstarsmag.com/articles/alexxcalise.html)
Brent Mason (http://www.musicsrisingstarsmag.com/introductory/iissue6.html)
Greg McDougal (http://www.musicsrisingstarsmag.com/introductory/iissue10.html)
Otan Vargas (http://www.musicsrisingstarsmag.com/december2008/13.html)
Quanah (http://www.musicsrisingstarsmag.com/january2009/12.html)
3 Doors Down (http://www.musicsrisingstarsmag.com/november2008/1.html)

[Jorkens]

Also for Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel, my vote for the absolute best fantasy written since Lord of the Rings.

I'd third of fourth this recommendation - it's great.

It's also quite refreshing in that it's as much character driven as plot driven, and the characters don't feel like they're written by someone who got all their ideas about how people think and act from reading other fantasy books...

[Rhydeble]

Brent Weeks's Night Angel Trilogy is excellent. They're my favorite books. :smallcool:

I'll second these, seriously nice books.

[Brewdude]

Ok, this is not constructive criticism. I never personally saw that massive preaching in Robin Hobb's books, and if it was there I was never bothered by it. Don't ask people to turn away from books they might potentially enjoy as fantasy, good storytelling and worldbuilding just because you don't like the morality that's presented in there and you judge it's "preaching massively", and thus has no redeeming quality. It's really not helping anybody.

This has got to be a criticism of the Hobb derecommendation, because even fans of Sword of Truth admit that the author goes on massive Author on Board interrupts. The only book more obvious about it is Atlas Shrugged when John Gault goes on for 60 pages.

Now as for the Farseer Trilogy, it clearly preaches that loyaty is most important, even if the person demanding loyalty screwed you over as a kid. Obviously you owe that person for all the knowledge he's taught you, and even if he's just acting in his own best interest, clearly you still owe it to him to put his interests over your own, even if he's busy betraying YOUR interests RIGHT NOW. Apparently loyalty is a one way street.

Yeah, that got old. Basically, the whole students owe their teachers vibe gets hardened into a maul and repeatedly beaten into your face as you read it.
That and a scene of some guy reacting to getting raped as if he was a girl (can't shower enough to get the dirty feeling off? Huh? He was the one doing the penetrating. WTF?) completely turned me off to the series, despite all the nifty warging bits.

I'll give you the good world building and wordsmithing. But storytelling? The good guys were GOOD. the bad guys were BAD. Why were they good and bad? Because we were told that. Because the good guys all claimed to be doing what they did for the good of the kingdom. Because the bad guys were all looking for personal power or were mindless thugs. Nevermind that both good and bad guys had kick the dog moments, and that the good guys were ALSO after personal power, or had an idiot ball level of inability to delegate. Ugh. Why do you make me relive these horrific memories? Some of the worst characters I've ever read, and I don't mean that in a good way.

Now, the other series by Hobb I can't comment on because I had such a bad reaction to Farseer.

That detailed enough for you, or should I start going into spoilers?

[Smiling Knight]

I enjoyed Hobb's Assasin's [object] series, but got sick of how she seemed determined to make Fitz miserable. Also the ending was disgustingly anti-climatic.

[ShaggyMarco]

I'll 300th George R.R. Martin and the Song of Ice and Fire series. If you do audiobooks, they are excellent, though the 4th book has a different reader, so it is, while well-read, a little jarring.

I will also second the Edge Chronicles. I have only heard the audiobooks, but they are well read and very engaging, if a little short and intended for younger audiences. Don't, however, let that younger audience thing make you think the authors aren't willing to bring the squalor or even outright kill characters from time to time--they do. Also, Sky Pirates.

Finally, he is technically a historical fiction author, but Bernard Cornwell's stuff is really great and really gritty. The Grail Quest Trilogy (The Archer's Tale is book 1) is fun and NOT, as the title might indicate, Arthurian at all. It is set during the 100 years war and follows around an English Longbowman who finds himself in the middle of the oldest quest in Christendom. His finest work, in my opinion, IS the Warlord Chronicles, which IS Arthurian, but functions as much as a de-romanticisation of the Once and Future King as anything, and is very well written.

[druid91]

I cannot recommend Patrick Rothfuss's "The Name of the Wind" and its subsequent, as yet unpublished, novels in the Kingkiller Saga enough(Yes, the first one's so good I'm recommending the later ones before they've even hit the shelves.)

I second this advice.:smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

That and a scene of some guy reacting to getting raped as if he was a girl (can't shower enough to get the dirty feeling off? Huh? He was the one doing the penetrating. WTF?) completely turned me off to the series, despite all the nifty warging bits.Uh... What? I can't remember this scene, but... Come on, seriously? Read over what you wrote again.

[Dexam]

If you want gritty, I can recommend the works of David Gemmell. Legend, his first novel, was mentioned in an earlier post. His works tend to be a bit violent, and have a tendency to feature flawed heroes with strong moral codes. Personally I favour the Drenai series of novels (particularly the Waylander books); the stand-alone novel Dark Moon; the Rigante series is quite good fantasy/alternate history; and for something a bit strange, look for the Jon Shannow series (Wolf in Shadow, The Last Guardian, and Bloodstone) - a post-apocalyptic Western, with a touch of fantasy (trust me, it works).

I can also recommend the works of Katharine Kerr, particularly the Deverry series of novels. They have an interesting take on a quasi-Celtic fictional setting; and the novels are written in a non-linear fashion, often with flash-backs to "present time" characters' past lives, and how those past lives influence the current characters. They're a good read.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Stuff

You had a terrible time reading that trilogy. Then just forget about it. Jeez. Some might be valid criticism, but I don't care about your "horror reliving those memories", or how you personally feel about loyalty, nor do I care for that ridiculous comparison to Atlas Shrugged. And who said the protagonists were always doing good? I always considered those characters to be a shade of grey, not all black or white, and also flawed. Just by reading those paragraphs, I can see you're assuming way too much or just exaggerating because the views of that society described in the book (who says they are all Hobb's personal opinions?) don't fit your worldview.

Also, I can't give you much credibility after that statement on rape. Sorry.

Anyway, it's been some time since I read that trilogy, so I cannot defend it properly, but it certainly doesn't deserve a "Book you should stay away from" mention, in my opinion and the opinion of many more people. I highly recommend that anyone who likes fantasy litterature picks up one of Hobb's books and then make his or her own opinion of it. There are worst ways to spend your time.

[Brewdude]

Uh... What? I can't remember this scene, but... Come on, seriously? Read over what you wrote again.

Yeah, I'd have to spoiler it to go into details, but when some chick takes it into her own hands to make a Man out of your androgenous arse, there's got some be something inherently hinky about her to get even close to that reaction, and there wasn't.


I refuse to reread it to get the details right, but that's how the clown pasty faced dude (who we don't know whether it's a chick or a dude until the last book) reacts to having had sex: constantly washing himself like he just can't get clean enough. W. T. F. ?

[Serpentine]

Are you basically saying that men can't be raped by women? Or something?
Your declaring that someone's reaction cannot be so is... mind-boggling. Everyone reacts to things in different ways. If you're talking about the character I think you're talking about, they are seriously messed up in the first place if I recall correctly.

[Vaynor]

That and a scene of some guy reacting to getting raped as if he was a girl (can't shower enough to get the dirty feeling off? Huh? He was the one doing the penetrating. WTF?) completely turned me off to the series, despite all the nifty warging bits.

This strikes me as horribly sexist. Men are not raped "as if [they were] a girl". Men are raped. They are also allowed to feel violated after the fact. :smallconfused:

[Serpentine]

I believe he was saying that his reaction was like a girl, not getting raped itself. Not that that really makes it any better. How would you expect a man to react to getting raped? Punch out his chest and brag to his buddy about how he got some?

[Shyftir]

So um since this thread is nearly derailed I'm gonna go back to the OP...

I'm "third" -ing David Gemmel, his Stones of Power series (Jon Shannow series) is definitely "weird" fiction with a bit of romance and a smidge of monster. Seems to be up your alley.

Also: Have you read A Canticle for Leibowitz? I think you would enjoy it.

Whoever said Terry Brooks didn't pay much attention to your post because he's the opposite of gritty, though you might like his Word and Void trilogy. (BTW, I really enjoy Brooks' Shanarra series but its because he's basically writing 18th Century adventure novels plus magic... really not the OP's indicated taste.)

You might like Michael Stackpole's A Hero Born and anything else he has set in that world.

I agree that you might like L.E. Modesitt Jr. Mostly because I love his Recluce series. His magic system is very interesting although prepare for some convoluted moralizing that might or might not be a figment of my imagination...

You could go old school with a bit of Isaac Asimov though that is more properly sci-fi. I suggest the Foundation series.

I really like Kristin Britain's Green Rider series, but I'm not sure it line's up with your taste much.

That's really all the stuff off the top of my head

Oh! You would Probably like Kate Elliot's Crown of Stars in fact I think it's a very under-read series for its quality. It's not for the casual fantasy fan but the world building is just amazing to my mind.

[Grimlock]

Oh! You would Probably like Kate Elliot's Crown of Stars in fact I think it's a very under-read series for its quality. It's not for the casual fantasy fan but the world building is just amazing to my mind.

Ahhhh, I forgot about these, I've read the first 6, but haven't got round to reading the last one yet! Veerrrry good! On a side note, alongside the general 'goodness', I like how she uses realistic numbers on the battlefield, dealing with hundreds of soliders, at most a few thousand, rather than 10s or 100s of thousands!

[Eldan]

Now as for the Farseer Trilogy, it clearly preaches that loyaty is most important, even if the person demanding loyalty screwed you over as a kid. Obviously you owe that person for all the knowledge he's taught you, and even if he's just acting in his own best interest, clearly you still owe it to him to put his interests over your own, even if he's busy betraying YOUR interests RIGHT NOW. Apparently loyalty is a one way street.

I'll give you the good world building and wordsmithing. But storytelling? The good guys were GOOD. the bad guys were BAD. Why were they good and bad? Because we were told that. Because the good guys all claimed to be doing what they did for the good of the kingdom. Because the bad guys were all looking for personal power or were mindless thugs. Nevermind that both good and bad guys had kick the dog moments, and that the good guys were ALSO after personal power, or had an idiot ball level of inability to delegate. Ugh. Why do you make me relive these horrific memories? Some of the worst characters I've ever read, and I don't mean that in a good way.

Uhm, were we reading the same books?
Because that's not the idea I got. Fitz is a bitter, antisocial jerk to just about everyone around him, especially after he's been living in a hut in the woods on his own for a few years. Everyone else has been screwing with him since his childhood, and they even admit it to him. They say that it's for the good of the kingdom, but it really only seems to show how much ruling the kingdom destroys the entire ruling family.
And really, after reading those books, I don't think his sense of "DUTY!" is really portrayed as good. It's crippling him, constantly.

[acid_ninja]

Didn't read the whole thing but I have heard no mention of the grand daddy of them all - Fritz Leiber. If you haven't read the Lankhmar stuff turn off the computer and go do so. now.

[Rothen]

I'll give you the good world building and wordsmithing. But storytelling? The good guys were GOOD. the bad guys were BAD. Why were they good and bad? Because we were told that. Because the good guys all claimed to be doing what they did for the good of the kingdom. Because the bad guys were all looking for personal power or were mindless thugs.

I thought one of the best assets of the book is that it didn't go into the overdone Sacred Good vs. Vile Evil story.
It's simply a tale about how one person is sucked into a web of political and military intrigue because of his sense of duty, not a tale of the Chosen One protecting the land from the Old Evil.

Edit: So yeah, I second a lot of the things said in here.
The Farseer Trilogy and some of the other books set in the same settings.
The Gentleman Bastard sequence by Scott Lynch.
Pretty much all of the books by David Gemmel.
The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss.

[Melayl]

Whoever said Terry Brooks didn't pay much attention to your post because he's the opposite of gritty, though you might like his Word and Void trilogy. (BTW, I really enjoy Brooks' Shanarra series but its because he's basically writing 18th Century adventure novels plus magic... really not the OP's indicated taste.)

I will grant that it has been most of a decade since I've read any of the Shanarra books, but we must have differing opinions of gritty. I had read, and just re-read, the OP, and find nothing to indicate that these would not be to his taste. I can't, however, read his mind, so I can't know for sure. I merely laid out a suggestion. VT (not I) can decide if they're to his taste.

[ZeltArruin]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, the Death Saga is always nice, though the books get a little worse when Nathan Long takes over, mostly because he changes the characters somewhat. Still, William Kings slayer books are fantastic if you like gritty situations and when things never get better for the protagonists.

[monomer]

I am going to second the Guy Gavriel Kay recommendation, and also agree that the Fionavar Tapestry (his first books) are completely outclassed by all of his other works (though I think Ysabel is also on the weaker side).

I am also a huge fan of George R. R. Martin and Patrick Rothfuss, but I would also agree that getting into either of their series would be a bit premature, as they both are taking their time in getting their works out.

You had also mentioned that you have read a lot of Sci-Fi, so you are probably familiar with Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. If you like their writing, they also have a couple fantasy novels: Burning City and Burning Tower, which I thought were pretty decent books.

[Thialfi]

I would recommend Brandon Sanderson. He is the author that was selected to finish the Wheel of Time Saga for the deceased Robert Jordan and his writing is, in my opinion, superior to Jordan in every possible way.

His characters are deep, his worlds are imaginative, and his stories well paced and fresh.

Even if you don't feel like slogging through the Wheel of Time to get to his work, I would strongly recommend the Mistborn Trilogy as well as his two stand alone novels, Warbreaker and Elantris.

[Adumbration]

Going to second, third, quarth (or whatever) Robin Hobb and Glen Cook. Both approach fantasy from a viewpoint that I had not encountered before reading their works.

Oh, and on Robin Hobb... My experience with them was that apart from the first Farseer Trilogy, most of her books are the type you read only once. Not because they're badly written - she makes an art of writing. Not because the plots are flawed or bad - they are superb.

They're simply very emotionally exhausting to read. The crap that her characters go through - both physically and emotionally is quite fatiguing, even though the stories/trilogies often end comparatively happily. The worst part is that the reactions/actions of the characters are, in the end, quite what you would expect from real people in the same situations, and so you can't hide behind the sentiment of "that's not what would really happen" as sometimes happens with books.

[Melayl]

Tara K. Harper's Wolfwaker series is, in my opinion, pretty darn gritty, too. And pretty darn good.

[Brewdude]

Jack Vance. Tales of the Dying Earth. It's like reading Groo the Wanderer if he were a thief instead of a Warrior. It's not gritty, it's not realistic. It's just outright fun. Also, see where D&D got it's magic system from and half of its original magic items!

[Marillion]

I would like to recommend the Tears of Artamon series by Sarah Ash, starting with Lord of Snow and Shadows. You have no idea how refreshing it is to read a fantasy series that has gunpowder in it:smallamused: In this book, Gavril Andar discovers that he is the child and sole heir of the king of Azhkendir, a nation of barbarians and superstition. He also learns that some of these superstitions are true. For centuries, a spirit known as the Drakhoul has possessed the rightful king of Azhkendir, giving him great and terrible power that has literally laid waste to armies, a power that causes him to become more dragon-like in appearance and in nature...A power that must be replenished with the blood of the innocent. As Gavril struggles to come to terms with his new identity, he must also face against Prince Eugene of Tielen, whose desire to create an empire will throw the world into war. With a fantastic cast of flawed and interesting characters and a story that's just the right mix of action, political intrigue, and romance, it's really a compelling read.

Also worth looking into is the Deepgate Codex by Alan Campbell, starting with Scar Night.




A vast network of ponderous chains suspends Deepgate over a dark chasm. The church of Ulcis dominates the skyline and the citizens' lives. When a Deepgate denizen dies, the body is cast, with appropriate rites, into the chasm. According to the church, Ulcis lies in the abyss. When he has enough of the sanctified dead to support him, he and they will rise and overthrow Ulcis' mother, Ayen, who bars men from the joys of Paradise. In the meantime, Deepgate battles intermittently with the nomadic heathens of the surrounding deserts, who worship Ayen. Deepgate is home to two angels, the 16-year-old male last descendent of one of Ulcis' companions, and the mad female Carnival, who, once a moon, hunts down and drains someone's blood and soul to remain alive. Almost torturously crafted in characterization, plot, and setting,Campbell's debut may appeal most to those who like novels in the manner of Dickens, whose highly evocative, occasionally overripe, memorable style Campbell's recalls.

[WalkingTarget]

I would like to recommend the Tears of Artamon series by Sarah Ash, starting with Lord of Snow and Shadows. You have no idea how refreshing it is to read a fantasy series that has gunpowder in it:smallamused: In this book, Gavril Andar discovers that he is the child and sole heir of the king of Azhkendir, a nation of barbarians and superstition. He also learns that some of these superstitions are true. For centuries, a spirit known as the Drakhoul has possessed the rightful king of Azhkendir, giving him great and terrible power that has literally laid waste to armies, a power that causes him to become more dragon-like in appearance and in nature...A power that must be replenished with the blood of the innocent. As Gavril struggles to come to terms with his new identity, he must also face against Prince Eugene of Tielen, whose desire to create an empire will throw the world into war. With a fantastic cast of flawed and interesting characters and a story that's just the right mix of action, political intrigue, and romance, it's really a compelling read.

I'm currently reading these (at the recommendation of a friend) and am about halfway through the second book. I think the setup is fairly interesting (and it's also a change of pace where the culture takes its cues from Russia instead of the more western European feel of a lot of other fantasy) but I have, thus far, found the pacing and nuts-and-bolts of the writing to be... less than spectacular. The first book took a good 2/3 of its length before the actual plot started to draw me in, then it ended. The second book has so far had the same problems.

Not to say that I'm going to stop. The better parts are enough to keep me interested so far. The ideas are good, I just think the writing itself hasn't done them justice in my opinion.

[Dmatix]

May I suggest the Thomas Covenant Chronicles.

There is also a second series and a partly completed 3rd series.

Seconded. I'm kinda surprised someone mentioned it. It doesn't get nearly enough love. I also suggest the Mordant's Need books from the same author for a bit of a lighter read. beside those, anything by Roger Zelazny is worth checking out. Brant Weeks Night Angle Trilogy is rather entertaining as well.
On the sci-fi side, the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons is utterly awesome,

[factotum]

Mordant's Need? I thought the second book was OK, but I really struggled with the first one--apart from the heroine narrowly avoiding having sex a couple of times, nothing happened in it!

[Dmatix]

Mordant's need is kinda slow, especially the first one, but I do think the second book is worth enduring the first for.
Oh, and I also forgot to recommend Ursula.K Leguin's Earthsea cycle (the first three books at least). The cycle has one of the best,IMO, magic systems out there.

[The_JJ]

Name of the Wind, Black Company, SoIaF, Gentleman Bastards...

So nothing that hasn't been recommended here at least twice already.

However, if you haven't, give Hyperion by Dan Simmons a try. It's SF, but on my 'recommend at any given chance' list. The sequels are skip-able though.

[zeratul]

Hmm. I would like to recommend Tamora Pierce, but, well, she writes for teenage girls (but I still think most teens should read her), and she's pretty definitely sword-and-sorcery. But you might find it interesting as feminist fantasy.


She lives in the same city as me actually,a few friends of mine have worked on audiobooks for her stuff. Is she particularly good?:smallconfused:

I seem to recall hearing extremely mixed things about her work ranging from it being really bad to good at least for young adult faire, but I've only actually read some of the work she did for Marvel Comics.

[DSCrankshaw]

Okay, some thoughts.

A Song of Fire and Ice. Good, but... gritty isn't the right word. Brutal might be better. And it's unfinished, and the author's had a massive case of writer's block for years now, so it's not clear when it will be.

And since you've mentioned that you're a writer of fantasy, I'm going to recommend that you read some short fiction. It's where most new writers cut their teeth, and it's good to know what's going on there. There are some good on-line magazines, such as Beneath Ceaseless Skies (http://beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/), Fantasy (http://www.fantasy-magazine.com/), and Strange Horizons (http://www.strangehorizons.com/index.shtml). There are also the print mags, such as Black Gate (http://www.blackgate.com/) and Fantasy and Science Fiction (http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/index.html).

[Tavar]

She lives in the same city as me actually,a few friends of mine have worked on audiobooks for her stuff. Is she particularly good?:smallconfused:

I seem to recall hearing extremely mixed things about her work ranging from it being really bad to good at least for young adult faire, but I've only actually read some of the work she did for Marvel Comics.

I found her works to be pretty good. Can't say anything more, as it's been some time since I read them.

[warty goblin]

I found her works to be pretty good. Can't say anything more, as it's been some time since I read them.

Her first quartet (the Alana one, the last book of which is Lioness Rampant I can't remember the other titles) is pretty good. Not knock you on your ass brilliant, particularly if you've read a fair bit of fantasy, but quite enjoyable and fairly well written with some solid character development as well.

After that I found they went steadily downhill, since subsequent quartets felt a lot like they had almost entirely the same overall character arcs, even if the actual plots were fairly different.

But her first series is definitely worth a read if you're looking for some not quite so heavy fare.

[Serpentine]

She lives in the same city as me actually,a few friends of mine have worked on audiobooks for her stuff. Is she particularly good?:smallconfused:

I seem to recall hearing extremely mixed things about her work ranging from it being really bad to good at least for young adult faire, but I've only actually read some of the work she did for Marvel Comics.I have a lot of trouble recommending things to people, cuz I'm too often "wrong". But I'll tell you what I can (my opinions, of course):
- It's definitely written for teenagers, especially young women.
- It's definitely sword-and-sorcery fantasy.
- It's quite light and fluffy.
- She isn't a master of wordcraft. They're not elaborate works of art. In fact, if you read through the Tortall books, I found that you can see her getting better at writing as she goes along.
- Her characters are all real and well-written. Her protaganists are flawed, and most of her antagonists mean well or don't know any better. I found it interesting that when you saw previous heroines in later books, "from the outside" as it were, you can get a better look at their flaws, for example Alanna's temper.
- She weaves in important issues, such as sexism, racism and contraception, unobtrusively as part of the plot.
- Not sure how to explain it, but there were some bits and pieces that made me think about things slightly different. For example, that just because a woman is a "weak" girly-girl doesn't mean she doesn't deserve respect and have her own brand of strength. Somethin' like that, anyway.
- I like her world and cosmology.
- I think every teenage girl (not sure about men, need to get some male opinions) should read them.
- The Tortall and Winding Circle books are quite different. If you don't like one, try the other (they're short books, won't take much out of your time).

That's about all I can think of right now. Though I'll just say this: she calls platypuses "duck-billed moles"! :smallfurious:

[Satyr]

- I think every teenage girl (not sure about men, need to get some male opinions) should read them.

I have only read the Alannna and Dhana line of books by her and that was years ago, but I remember that I thoroughly enjoyed them. There are certainly much worse fantasy books for younger readers. I also never had the impression that they were "girls-only" books, only because of the female protagonists - the overall moods and topics are actually quite standard for fantasy literature, as far as I remember.


Though I'll just say this: she calls platypuses "duck-billed moles"!
And platypuses were at first considered to be elaborate taxidermist jokes, so that doesn't come out of nowhere.

[Serpentine]

I think you've mentioned that before, actually.
And they're platypuses, anything else is just stupid. And she mentions the word "platypus" at the end in the acknowledgements, so it's not like she has ignorance as an excuse :smallannoyed:

[Eldan]

I've heard that anecdote too, yes. Apparently, in the 17th and 18th century, one could make some money by sewing together fantastic animals and selling them to European museums as discoveries from distant continents.

I've read some Tamora Pierce when I was a kid (around 12, I think), and I think I enjoyed them. Though I don't remember anything about them other than the first one had a purple cover in the german edition and that the main character was a girl.

[Tavar]

I don't know the situation, but could it be a separation of author knowledge and character knowledge?

[Satyr]

I think you've mentioned that before, actually.

There are a few cases which worked like that - like Volpertingers -and when you know that taxodermists build something like this


http://www.wolpertinger-mc.at/wolpertinger/images/wolp_images/wolpertinger.jpg

in their free time out of spare parts, people get skeptical.

And yes, this is at least 200 years old. So it's not as much of a current ignorance and probably more of an in-joke.

[Serpentine]

No no, I meant I think you've mentioned that you liked Tamora Pierce before. I knew about the "fake" platypus way back, years ago :smalltongue: 'strayan, remember?

Tavar: The platypus refers to itself as a duckmole.

[hamishspence]

And its personal name is Broad Foot- which may be an approximate translation of "platypus"- possibly a nod to the real creature's name?

[bloodlover]

Fantasy worth reading ? Tolkien of course. R.A.Salvatore & Ursula K. Le Guin.

My main problem is that I don;t find many fantasy books in my city so I have to read them from e-books and that;s not very good for my eyes...

Also I read a book called "Viriconium" by M.John.Harrison. It was good.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Just came in to 5th (6th?) the recommendation for The Name of The Wind.

The novel is wonderfully witty and well realized.

Rothfuss needs to hurry the hell up with the sequel. That is the only bad thing I can really say about the book, is that there is no real closure at the end. It needs the rest of the series.

[tomandtish]

Dresden Files – definitely. Not many writers out there where I can say book 12 is as enjoyable as book 1 (actually, even more so).

If you like anti-heroes, the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant by Stephen Donaldson.

The first 4 books of Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkin

Glen Cook’s Black Company

Martin’s Song of Fire and Ice: These days I’m only cautiously recommending this one for one reason – I have no idea when he will finish. They are awesome books with well-developed characters, heroes, anti-heroes, and villains. However, it was originally a 6 book series (now 7 after book 4 had to be split into books 4 and 5). Book 4 came out 5 years ago, and it’s been two years since he’s even posted an update on book 5’s status. I used to joke that Robert Jordan was going to die before Wheel of Time was finished and we all know how that turned out. I’m now starting to wonder if this series will ever be finished. Again, what is written is awesome, but at current speed it would be 10 more years before he is done even if book 5 came out tomorrow.

Feist’s Magician series.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Going along with everyone else saying A Song of Ice and Fire; but it is unfinished and has been years since the fourth book was finished, so if you do read it, be prepared for a long wait.
However, it's extremely brutal fantasy, quite low magic despite magic being a core part of the world.
And as someone who's studied mediaeval history the politics, war and general culture is very reminiscent of mediaeval Europe, especially England.
The parallels with the Wars of the Roses are rather obvious.
It's a dark, dark, dark, and yet fun and addicting series.
But the wait is frustrating, no doubt about it.

Lawyer Friend also highly recommend The Lies of Locke Lamora and the series in general, it's very good all around; I can't speak from personal experience I'm afraid, but I trust her recommendations. She has very good taste.

The Assassin's Trilogy by RObin Hobb is good, very emotionally exhausting; but enioyable. I don't know about the others set in the same world as her I'm afraid; but it's a well built world. I found myself impressed with the political side, even if the world is generally your typical Mediaeval Europe with a twist.

I will second Kristen Britain's Green Rider series. Again, the magic isn't all that used, the Rider's have their own talents, and, in a similar way to magic becoming more obvious in ASoIaF the magic is becoming more prevalent because of events that happened in the first book.
In fact, in a nice touch, Sacoridia (the main country of the series) doesn't want the magic back, they want it to go away.
I won't deny that the basic premise of a group of gifted horse riders who function as messengers for the king is more or less Mercede Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series (another series I recommend) but it;s still a very good read.

As a tongue-in-cheek series I'd recommend Edding's The Belgariad and The Mallorean series. Eddings set out to use and abuse all the tropes he could in a fun fantasy series. It is your typical sword and sourcery series with a five man band (actually has more people than that), but again, the political aspect is intriguing. And the effects of the Belgariad series reach over and have serious impact on the second series.

[Eldan]

To expand on Robin Hobb mentioned above:

The Liveship Traders is set in the same world. Where as the Farseer (Assassin) Trilogy features courtly intrigue and warfare in a kind of generic medieval europe with some magic, the Liveship traders follows a family of traders (the tech level feels a little more advanced, even if it's set in the same world and era) through the decline of their family, war, rebellion and a plot involving dragons.
Then there's the third trilogy, the Tawny Man, which follows the characters from the Farseer (assassin) trilogy many years later, as they return to court, this time negotiating peace after the war they helped win in the last trilogy and reuniting and pacifying their kingdom. Also very good.

[Serpentine]

I ask you to pay no regard to the negative comments floating around about the Wheel of Time Series .I maintain that all the characters were either despicable or on their way to becoming so, and that after about 5 books of hating them I had enough and abandoned them without regret. If someone likes to like their characters I will suggest that this isn't the series for them, but otherwise I don't remember having any other major complaints.

[Kallisto]

Another vote for:

A Song of Ice and Fire - G.R.R. Martin.

The Name of the Wind - Patrick Rothfuss.

Although, as you've previously read, both series aren't done yet, I find that they are still worth the read, even with the frustration. You'll get over it in a year or two, I promise. :smallwink:

Another vote for Steven Erickson's Garden of the Moon. So epic I'm lacking the words to describe it. I dare you to be indifferent to Kruppe or not be awed by Ganoes Paran. Here (http://www.powells.com/biblio?show=MASS%20MARKET:NEW:9780765348784:7.99&page=excerpt) is an excerpt, fairly representative of the book.

[WalkingTarget]

I maintain that all the characters were either despicable or on their way to becoming so, and that after about 5 books of hating them I had enough and abandoned them without regret. If someone likes to like their characters I will suggest that this isn't the series for them, but otherwise I don't remember having any other major complaints.

And I didn't have as strong a reaction to the characters as many others (including you, apparently) had. I don't try to argue preferences on these sorts of things with people, but it does seem to be a YMMV situation.

Not to say that his characterization is particularly good, there are problems, but they don't wreck the books for me. The setting/plot was always more important to me as far as these books go.

However, I tend to not recommend them anymore. I might start to do so again once the last few come out, but the interminable wait is best to be avoided.

[Douglas]

I maintain that all the characters were either despicable or on their way to becoming so, and that after about 5 books of hating them I had enough and abandoned them without regret. If someone likes to like their characters I will suggest that this isn't the series for them, but otherwise I don't remember having any other major complaints.
And I maintain that quite a number of the characters were awesome and getting better (and have continued to get better through the other 7 books), and the story itself is incredible.


However, I tend to not recommend them anymore. I might start to do so again once the last few come out, but the interminable wait is best to be avoided.
Only two are left, one's due out later this year, and the other will likely be just a year to a year and a half later. It's not that much of an interminable wait any more.

[WalkingTarget]

Only two are left, one's due out later this year, and the other will likely be just a year to a year and a half later. It's not that much of an interminable wait any more.

Yeah, I know. I last recommended them to a friend back when book 9 had just come out. That was almost 10 years ago now. I'm still reading them as they come out, but I'm a glutton for punishment or something.

[Barbarian MD]

Just joining the conversation, but I, too, approve of Wheel of Time, and I'm really excited about its upcoming conclusion. +1 to Dresden Files, as well, cause it's just a freaking awesome series and I can't put them down.

However, Song of Ice and Fire was too dark for me to finish the 3rd book. I get that there's a purpose to his brutality--creating a darker, more realistic mood, rather than the standard "shiny" high fantasy picture, but I just couldn't continue to read so many graphic descriptions of rape and murder before I got sick of it and had to put it down.

[TheLogman]

Watership Down. Extremely Gritty Fantasy to be sure.

Also, I really like Neal Shusterman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Shusterman). He writes mostly "Young Adult" Literature, so his stuff isn't THAT long or challenging, but I really enjoyed some of his stuff regardless. Plus he got invited to write the after Ender books for Orson Scott Card, but then he declined and Card wrote them himself. (I think you might like Everlost and Everwild the most if you are looking for Fantasy, though I really like his other stuff too).

[Kuzon]

the 'Deltora Quest' books by Emily Rodda hold a special place for me, but I'm also wierd with what i read.

i also reccomend the 'Diadem' books by John Peel for younger readers or those who want a short break from reality.

and i add to the reccomendations for Tamora Pierce's works as well.

[Serpentine]

Good ol' Deltora Quest. Would be so easy to turn it into a D&D campaign, too (I already used the City of Rats in a game). Not exactly "gritty", though.

[hamishspence]

Watership Down. Extremely Gritty Fantasy to be sure.

The author's written other, more traditional fantasy (not with animal protagonists), even grittier in some ways than Watership Down: Maia, and Shardik.

[Serpentine]

Not fantasy, but I can't let a mention of him go by without putting in a plug for Plague Dogs. Very good book.

[hamishspence]

Indeed. One thing I remember is that the book has a happy ending, whereas the cartoon version didn't.

[Serpentine]

Yeah. I only read about that - haven't seen the movie - but that struck me as weird. Normally it's the other way round...

[Saph]

Let's see . . . Well, avoiding the really obvious one like Tolkein, my recommendations would be:

The Wheel of Time - It's got its flaws, but it's the best of the 'fantasy epic' genre that I know. Plus, now that a new author's taken over, it's going to actually finish!

Raymond E. Feist's series, starting with Magician would take second place. Note that his series goes on even longer than the Wheel of Time, but he does at least divide them up into trilogies, which makes them easier to read.

Jim Butcher's Dresden Files series is the best of the 'urban fantasy' genre IMO.

For a younger-oriented urban fantasy series, you could try the Wizards series by Diane Duane - they vary a bit in quality, but the best one that I know of is The Book of Night with Moon.

Tamora Pierce's Song of the Lioness series is worth reading, but I wouldn't bother with the ones after that (they get a bit samey).

Some of David Gemmell's books are pretty good (start with Legend). He's written about five hundred sequels, but they also get a bit repetitive.

The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold is excellent. She's one of the few authors I know who does both male and female characters very well.

Some of the books in Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series are actually pretty good. Just try to ignore the author tracts.

Some less-well-known authors:

The Pelbar Cycle by Paul O. Williams is somewhere between fantasy and SF, set in a post-post-apocalyptic America where new civilisations are emerging. His writing style's unusual, but very good.

Jack Vance wrote a huge amount of stuff back when fantasy and science fiction were considered basically the same category (it shows). His most fantasy-oriented work is the Lyonesse trilogy - it's well worth reading. Along the way, you could check out the Dying Earth stories if you want to see where Gary Gygax got the whole 'Vancian casting' idea from.

Robin Jarvis' books, starting with The Dark Portal, are supposed to be for children, but they're creepy as hell. Really scared me as a kid.

[Yora]

The City of Dreaming Books by Walter Moers. It's the humorous story of a young writer who travels to a city made entirely of libraries and book shops, to find the person who had send the ultimate piece of literature to his late master. It's a story about books, and the love for books, which quite often doesn't take the fourth wall that serious. It's not a typical fantasy story, but about fantasy stories, and it's really really good.

[hamishspence]

Robin Jarvis' books, starting with The Dark Portal, are supposed to be for children, but they're creepy as hell. Really scared me as a kid.

Yup- I've seen them described as "the absinthe to Redwall's home-made lemonade"- and they're, while often creepy, pretty good.

[Serpentine]

Anyone know a book of short stories about animals, along the lines of The Animals of Farthing Wood? There was one about a hedgehog questing for the beautiful silver ribbon, and another about a toad that gets skinned alive.

[hamishspence]

Don't think so- but I liked Ted Hughes's How the Whale Became outlining the origins of various animals, and why they have certain features.

Tortoise, Whale, Hare, Owl, Bee, Fox- these were a few of them.

The Iron Man- on which the movie The Iron Giant is very loosely based, may be a better known fantasy book of his though.

[warty goblin]

Some of the books in Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series are actually pretty good. Just try to ignore the author tracts.


Which is to say most of pretty much every book after the fourth or thereabouts.

[Danne]

"The Lies of Locke Lamora" by Scott Lynch and the second of the series- "Under Red Skies" (I think)

That would be Red Seas Under Red Skies. And yes, read The Lies of Locke Lamora. It's an amazing book. It starts out as a nice, happy little fantasy story about thieves working a con, and then it gets really nasty really fast. It's utterly gripping, at times laugh out loud funny and at others heart wrenching. The way he interweaves past and present is very clever, as well. Highly recommend it!

If you like gritty, Brent Weeks' Night Angel trilogy is pretty epic. A little over the top at times, but a great read.

Elantris by Brian Sanderson has been mentioned. It's his first published novel, so it's a little rough in places, but it's also one of my favorite books. I haven't read anything else by him (yet) but I've heard high praises for Mistborn.

If you like YA fantasy, Graceling by Kristin Cashore is a great book. Strong female protagonist, strong male lead who's happy to let her be strong without being a push over, great plot, twisty ending, endearing characters. Also one of my favorites.

It's a little old, but Bridge of Birds by Barry Hughart is EPIC. It's not standard swords and sorcery fantasy, though, so it might not be what you had in mind. It's set in ancient China and involves a great deal of Chinese folklore and fairy tales, some played straight and others retold to suit the story. A very clever series, and while I guessed the main plot twist fairly early on, I didn't see all the little ways that were going to lead there until the end, so it still kept me guessing.

City of Bones by Martha Wells is another favorite, though it's also not standard swords and sorcery. It's set in a post apocalyptic fantasy world; the main character is a member of a genetically engineered humanoid race that can survive in the harsh world outside the city who is hired to help find a magical artifact that might have been better left unfound. Death of the Necromancer by the same author is also a great book, sort of steampunkish, with aristocratic rogues getting caught up trying to save their city from an evil necromancer, only more complicated than that!

Um... *rummages through bookshelves* Everything else I can think of has been mentioned. Unless you're okay with reading books with gay protagonists, in which case I can add about a bajillion great books that most people haven't heard of before.

[Serpentine]

I believe he doesn't like "gay for gay's sake", but - if I recall correctly from a previous discussion - he has nothing against gay characters themselves. just when they're used for "shock value" or similar.

[Danne]

Yeah, I don't like gay for shock value either.

Well, if anyone's interested:

The Fire's Stone by Tanya Huff. Standard swords and sorcery. The plot is simple -- three misfits get set off to bring back the stolen MacGuffin. The beauty is in the characters. One is a thief who believes his father's god has cursed him so that everyone he loves is killed; he must learn to trust and love if they're to succeed. Another is a snotty, spoiled princess who also happens to be a very powerful wizard; watching her mature is one of my favorite parts of the book. The third is an alcoholic prince who just wants to prove to his father that he's not the loser he's been groomed to be; the way Huff handles the nitty gritty aspects of an alcoholic going through withdrawal is quite impressive. Also it's a classic. I just re-read it a few weeks ago and was just as pleased with it the second time around as the first.

The God Eaters by Jesse Hajicek. Not much to say except that it's AWESOME. Steampunkish, wild west/frontier type setting, where magic is forbidden for anyone who doesn't work for the government. A scholarly rebel is found to have a hidden talent for empathy, so instead of being executed he's sent off to a special prison to be tortured studied, where he meets an ex-child-prostitute turned assassin who can kill people with his brain. :smallbiggrin:

A Strong and Sudden Thaw by R.W. Day. Our world, but post apocalypse, which caused the world to descend into another ice age. The main character lives in a small village that has recently become plagued by dragons (no joke). Also he finds himself attracted to the new village healer, which is confusing for him (and dangerous) because same-sex relationships are illegal. It drops an anvil or two, about gay rights and tyrannical governments, but nothing too bad. And the prose is just gorgeous. One of my favorites!

The Nightrunner Saga by Lynn Flewelling. Standard swords and sorcery, with the difference that neither of the main characters are long lost princes, chosen mages, or anything of the sort. The main character is a young woodsman who is wrongfully arrested; he is freed by a rogue/spy/aristocrat/some other awesome stuff. They get caught up trying to save the world. The first two books are amazing; the third is not as good, but still enjoyable. I have not read the fourth or fifth yet, but I've heard good things about them, especially the fifth one.

Wicked Gentlemen by Ginn Hale. Title makes it sound like a porno, but it's not. Can't really describe it because the themes are religious and I don't want to break board rules, but the setting is a steampunk-type theocratic city where the descendants of demons live as an oppressed race.

Kirith Kirin by Jim Grimsley. Swords and sorcery. I'm reading this one now. It's a little dry in places but the plot, world building, and characterization are all quite solid. Also too much for me to sum up in just a few lines, though. I'm enjoying it very much!

(Can you tell I love to read? :smallbiggrin:)

[Serpentine]

Incidentally, Tamora Pierce's Winding Circle series has several good gay characters.

[Telonius]

I'd suggest Chosen of Harrekh, but I'm a bit biased in that regard. :smallbiggrin:

[Danne]

@Serpentine: Most of them very subtle until you hit Will of the Empress, which is just an awesome book all around. I'd have recced it but you already mentioned Pierce, so it was covered. :smallsmile:


@^: Ooh, you can read it free online. What's it about?

[Telonius]

The general plot is that the high priestess's daughter has been recalled to the capital for a ceremony, but there's an assassination. They have to figure out who's behind it before a civil war breaks out.

The setting is very low magic. There are no elves, dwarves, wizards, or arcane magic to speak of, though there is a certain amount of divine involvement. The technology level is roughly ancient Egyptian.

[hamishspence]

Incidentally, Tamora Pierce's Winding Circle series has several good gay characters.

So does Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series.

[Danne]

The general plot is that the high priestess's daughter has been recalled to the capital for a ceremony, but there's an assassination. They have to figure out who's behind it before a civil war breaks out.

The setting is very low magic. There are no elves, dwarves, wizards, or arcane magic to speak of, though there is a certain amount of divine involvement. The technology level is roughly ancient Egyptian.

That sounds interesting. *adds to "to read list"*

Oh, and I forgot one of my favorite authors! (Not gay themed, just regular old fantasy.) Jane Lindskold. Pretty much anything by her.

Her big series is the Firekeeper Saga, about a girl who was raised by intelligent wolves only to be found some years later by a politician who thinks she might be a long lost princess. It sounds really corny when I put it that way, but it's actually really good. It starts out in a very low magic world, with the only hints of magic being a few "talents" (e.g. one character has a healing talent, and there may be some magic in the main character's ability to interact with animals) and the emphasis is on the political situation -- who will be the next heir, a war with a neighboring country, a few stolen artifacts that may have magical properties, etc. By the last few books (there are six in all) it's morphed to a story with evil sorcerers, good sorcerers who only know how to practice evil magic, one ancient magician who's determined to keep life interesting and another who's convinced that everyone with magic (except himself, of course) is evil and needs to be destroyed with a terrible disease. The world building is especially impressive. It's got action, romance, awesome characters, dragons (well, a dragon), interesting magic systems, pretty much everything I like in a book.

She also has a few other books I really enjoy. Brother to Dragons, Companion to Owls is more sci-fi than fantasy, but it's great fun. Most of the main characters are crazy. She has another series (I can't think of the name right now...) which is set in the world today but the main characters are immortal beings. Basically, many (not all, but it's impressive how she's worked various things together) important historical and mythological figures are the same group of people, who are still around today. For example, Orpheus is better known today as Elvis, and Confucius runs a law firm. Very clever.

[Aptera]

Have you read any Jorge Luis Borges? Classic Argentinian Author, wrote a lot of weird fiction (well it was either that or South Americans knife fighting) in the mid-20th century. Only did short stories, and a lot of them weren't fantasy (he never really bothered with genres). A really good fantasy story by him is "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius", which is about the nature of reality and an encyclopedia. "The Library of Babel" is also a good fantasy story of his.

[Douglas]

So does Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series.
One of whom gets to be the main character of his own trilogy. I remember seeing an explanation somewhere that she just mentioned in passing that X historical legendary figure was gay somewhere in the books without really thinking about it, and then ran with it when people started asking for a series focusing on him. His sexual orientation is a major part of his fully fleshed out character, but his status as "The Last Herald-Mage" (and not-so-incidentally the most powerful) is definitely much more prominent.

[Zen Monkey]

I ordered a complete collection of Robert Howard's Conan stories. Now I'm essentially sitting at the table after ordering my dinner, as the waiters bring out other trays and I look to see if it's mine.

p.s. International shipping needs to be somehow faster!

[Danne]

So does Mercedes Lackey's Heralds of Valdemar series.

Yeah, but she also tends to go the "gay characters must lose their lovers, suffer, and die" route. :smallyuk:

[hamishspence]

Firesong managed to miss the "die" part- find lover, lose lover, find new lover, suffer, new lover stays with him anyway.

Losing lovers does tend to happen a lot though- Vanyel, Firesong, and Keren all lost their first big love, though Firesong's simply "grew away" from him.

[Revanmal]

I'm a big fan of Dennis L. McKiernan's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_L._McKiernan) 'The Iron Tower' trilogy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Tower)

The Iron Tower was originally written as a kind of prequel to a book set in Tolkien's Middle Earth, but he couldn't get the rights to publish it from Tolkien's estate, so he rewrote it. It's very similar to the Lord of the Rings books in some ways, but very different in others, and all his Mithgar work is very well written. Little mentions of previous stories and the resolution of huge overarching plots - The Dragonstone's purpose, the destiny of Modru's dark knife - are spread out over centuries, with a lot of rich detail and excellent characterization.

[Hawriel]

Just jumping to the end here.

I almost finished with Steven Eriksons Malazan series.

Its ****ing amazing. Sure the novels are as think as R. Jordans, but he gets things done. The world he created is emencely rich in cultures, history, peaple, magic and depth. He is not afraid to make his characters suffer. Oh boy do some of them suffer. He is not afaid to kill his characters when its most tragic and potent to the story. Some times in droves. He has both gritty real combat whare no one excapes unscathed, and peaple of great power and ability that are truely badass. Yet thoughs badasses are in very grave danger when ever violents errupts.

The world of his Malazan series was origionaly intended to be an RPG setting. However Erikson and his creative partner Ian Camaron Esslemont desided to write novels when the RPG angle didnt work.

This is not a tolken rip off. There are no dwarves, evles, orks, halflings or any other dry cleche. His peaple and races are unique unto his world.

Erikson had degries in arkiology and palientology. He truely drew on that knowledge to give his world a history, a very anchent history, and interesting societies.

If you like Glen Cook or R R Marten I believe you will find Erikson to be worth reading.

[Leon]

Crowthistle Chronicles by Cecilia Dart-Thornton

Old Kingdom Series by Garth Nix

The Well of Echoes by Ian Irvine

[Danne]

Old Kingdom Series by Garth Nix

Definitely this one. :smallbiggrin: