3.5 Bard Optimisation

[Shadwen]

level 10. 4 flaws. any prcs. Looking to be mainly support with some type of dmg. Any books.

[Draz74]

Seems like Dragonfire Inspiration is the main schtick you'd be interested in.

[PId6]

Savage Bard 8 [UA]/Mindbender 1 [CA]/Virtuoso 1 [CAdv](/Sublime Chord 1 [CA]/Virtuoso +9)

Feats:

1: Dragontouched [DM]
1: Dragon Heritage (Battle Dragon) [RotD]
1: Dragonfire Inspiration [DM]
1: Melodic Casting [CM]
1: Anything
3: Song of the Heart [ECS]
6: Snowflake Wardance [Frost]
9: Mindsight [LoM]

Other useful feats: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting (+ITWF), Lingering Song [CAdv], Extend Spell, Words of Creation [BoED]

Take Inspirational Boost [SpC], Badge of Valor [MIC], Vest of Legends [DMG2], Masterwork Mandolin [CAdv].

At 10th level, you can have Inspire Courage +7 atk/+5 dmg, which translates to +7d6 sonic damage thanks to Dragonfire Inspiration. This works on every ally's attacks. You can double that using Words of Creation to +14d6, but that's probably a bit too strong for most campaigns and will make the DM very very mad at you.

Is Dragon Magazine allowed?

[Shadwen]

yes dragon magazine is allowed: but need to know the number of it.


That looks pretty nice. We have a planar shepherd, dread necromancer..a soon to be dead barb who is going into a tripper char. And me...dead.

[PId6]

yes dragon magazine is allowed: but need to know the number of it.
Dragon has a number of flaws that are good to take:

Arcane Performer (DR324): You must make a Perform check (DC 10 + spell level) in order to cast a spell. By that level, you should be able to succeed on natural 1s.
Brash (DR324): You take -6 AC vs AoOs. Since you're going to Tumble around the battlefield anyway, this really doesn't matter.
Cold-Blooded (DR324): You automatically fail Fort saves to overcome high temperatures, and fire deals 2 extra damage to you. This is overcome easily by Endure Elements, and the extra damage is negligible (or cast Resist Energy if you want).
Fussy (DR328): Drinking potions does bad things to you. Solution: don't bother drinking potions.



That looks pretty nice. We have a planar shepherd, dread necromancer..a soon to be dead barb who is going into a tripper char. And me...dead.
*Blink* :smallconfused:

One of these characters is not like the others.

What plane did the Planar Shepherd choose?

[Shadwen]

not bad at all. Ok ill look into that...so the best setup is to boost the sonic dmg of everyone?

[Keld Denar]

Yea. Once you have that buff up, everyone should focus on making as many attacks as possible. The more they hit, regardless of how hard, the more glorious sonic dice get rolled. The damage is geometric.

Sometimes the best answer to a problem is to kill it so fast it was never a problem in the first place. DFI Bards do this VERY well.

[Shadwen]

ok, good...and focus on just cha?

[PId6]

ok, good...and focus on just cha?
Yep. Get Cha as high as possible. Secondaries are Con, Int, and Dex. Keep Con at a reasonable amount (~14), and same for Int (12-14, less for humans). Dex isn't absolutely necessary, but it is nice to have. Dump Wis and Str, and take Weapon Finesse if you want to melee.

[Shadwen]

does the sonic dmg affect bow? if so i would like to remain ranged.

[PId6]

does the sonic dmg affect bow? if so i would like to remain ranged.
Yes, it affects anything with an attack roll. Ranged works quite nicely too. In this case, take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot rather than Snowflake Wardance or TWF. Your attack will be a bit worse, but you'll be quite damaging.

If you're not worried about spending Bardic Music attempts, you can also use DFI to add sonic damage, and then start singing regular Inspire Courage to boost attack/damage regularly. Since the songs last 5 rounds after you stop singing, you'll temporarily have both effects overlapping, giving you the benefits of both. This will burn out your bardic music fast, but is a very powerful option when you need it.

[Shadwen]

I could use that extra flaw feat to gain the extra bardic music feat. Also nah..i think its best to survive the harder encounters than to hold onto a lil music.

[lesser_minion]

You might want to look into getting a harmonizing weapon (Magic Item Compendium), which does a lot more for your spellcasting than Melodic Casting (but doesn't provide much help with making spell effects overlap).

Sublime Chord is also nice -- while you end up weaker in terms of bardic music, you gain a massive boost in terms of spells.

You also gain a few songs -- notably, one that boosts CL, and another that freezes a creature in time (the downside being that you have to keep performing, and stay nearby, but it's nice for the ability to keep an opponent out of the fight for a while, and... harmonizing weapon).

[Mr.Moron]

One option might be to ride beguiler into Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) then just go into anything that advances music and casting. Obviously you won't have full caster progression, but you'll have more spells per day sooner than a regular bard.

And of course since it adds all the bards spells to the beguiler class list....

[lesser_minion]

One option might be to ride beguiler into Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) then just go into anything that advances music and casting. Obviously you won't have full caster progression, but you'll have more spells per day sooner than a regular bard.

And of course since it adds all the bards spells to the beguiler class list....

Hmm... Sorcerer -> PreBard -> Sublime Chord could be interesting. Not sure how optimised, but still.

[Critical]

Savage Bard 8 [UA]/Mindbender 1 [CA]/Virtuoso 1 [CAdv](/Sublime Chord 1 [CA]/Virtuoso +9)

Feats:

1: Dragontouched [DM]
1: Dragon Heritage (Battle Dragon) [RotD]
1: Dragonfire Inspiration [DM]
1: Melodic Casting [CM]
1: Anything
3: Song of the Heart [ECS]
6: Snowflake Wardance [Frost]
9: Mindsight [LoM]

Other useful feats: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting (+ITWF), Lingering Song [CAdv], Extend Spell, Words of Creation [BoED]

Take Inspirational Boost [SpC], Badge of Valor [MIC], Vest of Legends [DMG2], Masterwork Mandolin [CAdv].

At 10th level, you can have Inspire Courage +7 atk/+5 dmg, which translates to +7d6 sonic damage thanks to Dragonfire Inspiration. This works on every ally's attacks. You can double that using Words of Creation to +14d6, but that's probably a bit too strong for most campaigns and will make the DM very very mad at you.

Is Dragon Magazine allowed?
Um, Dragon Heritage requires Sorcerer level 1st.

[PId6]

Um, Dragon Heritage requires Sorcerer level 1st.
Hence why Dragontouched is there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go with PId6's build with a Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic, but switch your feats to the following:

H: Dragonfire Inspiration
F: Melodic Casting
F: Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) (Fleshraker dinosaur, MM3, or Dire Eagle, RoS)
F: Point-Blank Shot
F: Precise Shot
1: Lingering Song or Requiem (LM)
3: Song of the Heart
6: Rapid Shot
9: Mindsight

Note that it is impossible to use Words of Creation with a nongood character, and Mindbender requires a nongood alignment. With Lingering Song you can use a regular +attack/damage IC, then the following round start a DFI IC. The two will stack, and the one you start first will last for ten rounds after you start the second one. Requiem is useful if the Dread Necro has a lot of undead minions you want to benefit from IC. Wild Cohort is amazing for getting another combatant with several attacks/round, and fits nicely with Savage Bard. Also be sure to get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), since anyone capable of casting arcane spells can use any eternal wand. A Lesser Rod of Quicken is good to have so you don't have to spend an extra round to cast Haste. A Circlet of Rapid Casting is also nice for lower level spells. The party should have plenty of melee already, plus your wild cohort, so when you're not busy buffing you can use a shortbow with all your IC bonuses.

[Morph Bark]

level 10. 4 flaws. any prcs. Looking to be mainly support with some type of dmg. Any books.

...

You gotta be effing essing me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

...

You gotta be effing essing me.

An Elf who can Chaos Shuffle gets four extra feats, not even considering swapping out Otyugh Hole feats. There are a lot of builds and tricks that only work well with a whole pile of feats, and quite a few fun shticks that you have to throw feats at to make them work. A lot of extra feats is more of an opportunity to make a fun character who's good at more than one thing than anything, you should try it some time.


I'd also like to bring up that starting at level 10, you don't necessarily have to take all of your flaws at 1st level. You could get Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar for example, without pushing down Song of the Heart or Mindsight.

[Shadwen]

I really like P's build. It looks solid and looks like it can stand up to the challenges that im placing upon it. Ill look at the other build presented. Any other items/tips/tricks are welcome.

[Keld Denar]

If you get a melee weapon, make sure its a +1 Sudden Stunning whatever. Preferably something slashing so you can use it with Whirling Blade if you need a ranged attack. Sudden Stunning is in the DMGII and is pretty amazing, especially if you pump Cha.

Mindsight + access to the Glitterdust spell means that nothing short of an invisible zombie or someone with Superior Invis is gonna ever sneak up on you. Its very good. You should take it (and the required Mindbender dip) regardless.

When you get to you Sublime Chord casting, you won't know many spells, so its important to pick some good BC spells like Evard's or Solid Fog, along with some good protections like Greater Mirror Image. Don't get any blasty spells, as you'll have that covered plenty well by the damage from your Dragonfire Inspiration.

[Shadwen]

Im most likely going to be going with a bow. We have quite a few upclose people..and i wouldnt like to join thier ranks...id prefer not to get cut..gotta be good lookin after all.


Suggested spells overall to grab up to 10?

[Keld Denar]

Charm Person is a prereq for Mindbender.

Others:
Inspirational Boost (+1 to Inspire Courage!)
Improvisation
Silent Image

Glitterdust
Invisibility
Alter Self

Glibness
Fear
Haste

[Shadwen]

ok that doesnt sound bad at all. So can someone explain in detal this sonic dmg to all party mates and how it works?

[The Shadowmind]

Here in the inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration information: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8334.0p

[Shadwen]

ok kinda makes a bit of sense now.

[PId6]

Don't forget the Creaking Cacophony spell (SpC). Bard 3, makes all creatures in a 40 ft spread vulnerable to sonic damage. If you have a Sonic Dragonfire Inspiration, that's basically +50% more DFI damage.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, it affects anything with an attack roll. Ranged works quite nicely too.

Anything with an attack roll? I thought it only worked on weapons. Can you truly DFI a Disintegrate, or Enervation?

[Shadwen]

ok, thanks P. I think this character will be alot of fun.

[Flickerdart]

Anything with an attack roll? I thought it only worked on weapons. Can you truly DFI a Disintegrate, or Enervation?
Dragonfire Inspiration only works on weapons. However weaponlike spells (spell requiring an attack roll) can be argued to be eligible.

[PId6]

Anything with an attack roll? I thought it only worked on weapons. Can you truly DFI a Disintegrate, or Enervation?
It's arguable, but I think weapon-like spells do qualify, at least for regular Inspire Courage damage. DFI is a bit more ambiguous. Depends on DM, I guess.

[dextercorvia]

It's arguable, but I think weapon-like spells do qualify, at least for regular Inspire Courage damage. DFI is a bit more ambiguous. Depends on DM, I guess.


I found it. I knew it was too good to be true.


Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Player's Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells, as noted in Chapter 3 of this book. All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (as as the bard's inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don't increase damage from a weapon-like spell. Likewise, a weapon-like spell that deals normal damage can't be used to deal nonlethal damage or vice versa (except when modified by the Nonlethal Substitution feat or in accoredance with the specific regulations of a nonlethal spell duel as described on page 176).

[PId6]

Aww, how unfortunate. :smallfrown:

Oh well, there's always splash weapons.