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Jallorn
2010-06-30, 02:33 AM
Who wins in this epic battle of overpowering cheese?

Pun-pun (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Pun-pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build))

The Wish and The Word (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild))

My money is on Pun-pun, but that would still be a fun battle.

oxybe
2010-06-30, 02:37 AM
pun pun by default.

the only way to beat pun pun is to preemptively destroy him pre-ascension.

post ascension, he can emulate the wish, word, hulking hurler, the entire pantheon & every other borked thing in D&D via his ability gain. simultaneously.

Draz74
2010-06-30, 02:56 AM
the only way to beat pun pun is to preemptively destroy him pre-ascension.

Wait, come to think of it, can't he give himself time travel abilities and prevent your preemptive strike?

oxybe
2010-06-30, 03:21 AM
Wait, come to think of it, can't he give himself time travel abilities and prevent your preemptive strike?

yes, but the only way a D&D world can properly exist, if we assume pun-pun to be a possible outcome, is one of 4 things:

A) pun pun just doesn't care about the world enough to be a jerk about his deus ex machina powers so no one ever tries to stop him from his evil and terrifying master plan of "i'm simply going to watch the world and it's people because they're funny".

B) diverging timelines keep the world from imploding. when someone goes to kill pun-pun it splits the timeline in 2: one where PP is alive and well as his assassin is destroyed and one where PP has never existed in the first place.

C) pun pun is bored of existance and lets himself gets killed. teh endz.

D) the future is not set in stone. if you can predict X from happening, you can probably stop it. just because punpun is ready to ascend doesn't mean he will in the future.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-30, 03:22 AM
Wait, come to think of it, can't he give himself time travel abilities and prevent your preemptive strike?
Only if he actually ascends "first". If he never ascends he can never go back in time to stop you from stopping him from ascending. You only get once chance, you must do it right the original time or he can just stop you, no matter what.
Language doesn't do well with things like this.

jokey665
2010-06-30, 03:52 AM
Only if he actually ascends "first". If he never ascends he can never go back in time to stop you from stopping him from ascending. You only get once chance, you must do it right the original time or he can just stop you, no matter what.
Language doesn't do well with things like this.

I literally just finished watching Deja Vu (the 2006 one), and I'm going to totally and utterly disagree with you. But then again, nobody really knows what can happen if time travel exists; too many possibilities.

Jallorn
2010-06-30, 03:54 AM
I literally just finished watching Deja Vu (the 2006 one), and I'm going to totally and utterly disagree with you. But then again, nobody really knows what can happen if time travel exists; too many possibilities.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the future doesn't exist yet, and that if you travel to the past you create an offshoot reality that is now different from yours.

Myth
2010-06-30, 03:54 AM
Yes Pun-Pun does win. And stopping him can happen only via Divine intervention:

1: Any Gods that sense his ascension due to Portfolio Sense proceed to smash him. Life and Death SDA will mean no mortal can ever ressurrect him.

2: Post-ascension only lord Ao or the Lady of Pain can beat him as they have no stats and are above deities, therefore they exist outsude the DnD rules. The DM can simply say "Lord Ao erases Pun-Pun from existence for disbalancing the equilibruim of divine power in the multiverse." and no ammount of infinite DEX and spells will help him.

The Lady of Pain is assumed to be an Overdeity similar to Ao but with a more narrow focus on her existence, but If she can smoke a God she probably is above DR20.

Sindri
2010-06-30, 03:58 AM
Even if Pun-pun was bored, and just let them do whatever they wanted to him for a few rounds, as a diety he is beyond the Wish spell, and having literally infinite HD Blasphemy has no effect.

Then he uses his infinite actions per round and infinite spells to systematically go through everything they have ever thought to guard against, and then kills them each with a single unarmed strike. At any distance. On any plane. And then declares that nothing can ever restore them, in any way, ever. Except for him.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 04:08 AM
Pun Pun has NI Diving Ranks!

Myth
2010-06-30, 04:13 AM
Pun Pun has NI Diving Ranks! Yes but this mechanic exploit grants him only the RAW bonuses of + divine ranks. So more of the same: Saving Throws, DR, BAB, SDAs... It does not put him at Overdeity level and thus exempt from the rules. Unless you want to interpret the rules where if a deity gains Divine rank above 20 he becomes an Overdeity. However that would mean you read RAI and thus the proxy trick will not work as it was never the intention of WOTC to have an infinite loop that allows infinite Divine Ranks.

Not to mention that Ice Assassin uses the wording "creature" and Deities are beyond mortals and such. It is obvious that if one uses RAI Ice Assassin could never copy a Deity's stats or SDAs.

Plus, good luck with obtaining a pice of hair or nail or whatever from a Deity to cast Ice Assassin in the first place.

rakkoon
2010-06-30, 04:24 AM
These characters are fabulous..Pun pun I knew, these two new guys are a fabulous example of how to screw up a system.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-30, 08:11 AM
Pun Pun has NI Diving Ranks!

Especially since he doesn't have to breathe or worry about water pressure. He can probably get some really neat photos of the critters that live on the ocean floor.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 08:15 AM
Plus, good luck with obtaining a pice of hair or nail or whatever from a Deity to cast Ice Assassin in the first place.

Spell-like ability (or Eshew Materials) gets around that, RAW.

In practice I think some material components should always be required, even with an SLA or that feat.

But the rules don't say that.

Douglas
2010-06-30, 08:19 AM
Yes but this mechanic exploit grants him only the RAW bonuses of + divine ranks. So more of the same: Saving Throws, DR, BAB, SDAs... It does not put him at Overdeity level and thus exempt from the rules. Unless you want to interpret the rules where if a deity gains Divine rank above 20 he becomes an Overdeity. However that would mean you read RAI and thus the proxy trick will not work as it was never the intention of WOTC to have an infinite loop that allows infinite Divine Ranks.
Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank21Plus)

That seems pretty blatant RAW to me.


Not to mention that Ice Assassin uses the wording "creature" and Deities are beyond mortals and such. It is obvious that if one uses RAI Ice Assassin could never copy a Deity's stats or SDAs.
Deities are very powerful creatures, but they are still creatures. I will be very surprised if you can show me any rule that states that only mortal or non-deific beings count as "creatures".


Plus, good luck with obtaining a pice of hair or nail or whatever from a Deity to cast Ice Assassin in the first place.
You are referring to the material component of the spell. Which is a component. Which spell-like abilities do not require.

Also, it has no listed price, so:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components)

Yes, this is obviously not RAI, but since when has RAI ever been relevant to a RAW thought exercise like Pun-pun?

Closak
2010-06-30, 08:22 AM
Immortals handbook.

Oopsies :smalleek:


...Or we could just send "The Avatar Of All Evil" after him.
That be fun to watch...then again, maybe not, collateral damage and all.
I'm gonna go hide now! *Runs*

Myth
2010-06-30, 08:44 AM
Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank21Plus)

That seems pretty blatant RAW to me.
Yes. But since you do not have a means of tracking your progression, which is obtained by an infinite loop exploit, you simply stack DR levels to get the actual stat bonuses. Rank 21+ obtained via this infinite loop makes pun-pun a deity with infinite Divine Rank gotten by copying the DR off of deities who DO require worship. He is not a being that simply is above Divine Rank, he actually can measure his divine rank. Ao is above such things. So if Pun-Pun is infinite DR he is still below Ao who is simly excluded from the system. The sheer fact that Pun-Pun has a "starting point" before he ascends makes him inferior.



Deities are very powerful creatures, but they are still creatures. I will be very surprised if you can show me any rule that states that only mortal or non-deific beings count as "creatures". Aye they are 20HD outsiders + vanilla class levels. However the assumption that a mere 9th level spell can copy the effects of Salient Divine abilites which are fueled by the worship of thousands of people is absurd and you are arguing sematnics. The RAW text of this spell is so poorly written you might as well summon an Ice Assassin of Ao and just re-create the universe.




You are referring to the material component of the spell. Which is a component. Which spell-like abilities do not require.


Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp. XP Cost: 5,000. The text specifically describes what is needed. It's obviously not simple fluff text like the pinch of powdered iron needed for Enlarge Person (the use of which is left to the player's imagination). Obviously if the spell costs 20,000 gp and 5000 XP the third component is intended to be equally taxing, albeint in a different way (needs the player's time and effort to be obtained, which could be the least or most expensive comodity). Sure by RAW if you can get Ice Assassin as a SLA you'd be able to skip this i guess. It's really up to the DM at this stage, as any normal means of getting it (SLA High Arcana for example) will have the cost upped. 50K Xp per casting anyone?


Also, it has no listed price, so:
Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components) Yes, this is obviously not RAI, but since when has RAI ever been relevant to a RAW thought exercise like Pun-pun.Dude seriously this RAW vs RAI has it's limits. Assume you have a piece of a random Deitiy in your spell component pouch? Pun-Pun is a mental excersise for sure but many players argue that he is actually legal per 3.5, whcih i am hoping to disprove.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-30, 09:17 AM
Yes. But since you do not have a means of tracking your progression, which is obtained by an infinite loop exploit, you simply stack DR levels to get the actual stat bonuses. Rank 21+ obtained via this infinite loop makes pun-pun a deity with infinite Divine Rank gotten by copying the DR off of deities who DO require worship. He is not a being that simply is above Divine Rank, he actually can measure his divine rank. Ao is above such things. So if Pun-Pun is infinite DR he is still below Ao who is simly excluded from the system. The sheer fact that Pun-Pun has a "starting point" before he ascends makes him inferior.
Um, what? No, you are completely just making this up, making distinctions that you may feel should exist, but are not there in the rules.

Aye they are 20HD outsiders + vanilla class levels. However the assumption that a mere 9th level spell can copy the effects of Salient Divine abilites which are fueled by the worship of thousands of people is absurd and you are arguing sematnics. The RAW text of this spell is so poorly written you might as well summon an Ice Assassin of Ao and just re-create the universe.


Again, you are saying "well that is the way it works, but that's just stupid!"
Yeah, it may be stupid, but that is the way it works. Your houserules are not RAW.



The text specifically describes what is needed. It's obviously not simple fluff text like the pinch of powdered iron needed for Enlarge Person (the use of which is left to the player's imagination). Obviously if the spell costs 20,000 gp and 5000 XP the third component is intended to be equally taxing, albeint in a different way (needs the player's time and effort to be obtained, which could be the least or most expensive comodity). Sure by RAW if you can get Ice Assassin as a SLA you'd be able to skip this i guess. It's really up to the DM at this stage, as any normal means of getting it (SLA High Arcana for example) will have the cost upped. 50K Xp per casting anyone?
You might want to look at exactly how Pun-Pun does his tricks.



Dude seriously this RAW vs RAI has it's limits. Assume you have a piece of a random Deitiy in your spell component pouch? Pun-Pun is a mental excersise for sure but many players argue that he is actually legal per 3.5, whcih i am hoping to disprove.

Indeed, it's ridiculous, but it's RAW. You say you want prove it doesn't work, but so far you have just said how much you dislike RAW.

Myth
2010-06-30, 09:23 AM
So are you saying then, that by RAW it is possible to cast Ice Assasin and duplicate Ao and, since he is under your complete conrol, just change the universe?

Ranos
2010-06-30, 09:24 AM
I'm sorry, what exactly made you all think Pun Pun WASN'T Ao ? :smallwink:

And the Lady of Pain too, in his spare time. Every other god in the pantheon is just part of his cosmic puppet show. Omnipotent kobolds have to entertain themselves too.

Radar
2010-06-30, 09:26 AM
(...)
The text specifically describes what is needed. It's obviously not simple fluff text like the pinch of powdered iron needed for Enlarge Person (the use of which is left to the player's imagination). Obviously if the spell costs 20,000 gp and 5000 XP the third component is intended to be equally taxing, albeint in a different way (needs the player's time and effort to be obtained, which could be the least or most expensive comodity). Sure by RAW if you can get Ice Assassin as a SLA you'd be able to skip this i guess. It's really up to the DM at this stage, as any normal means of getting it (SLA High Arcana for example) will have the cost upped. 50K Xp per casting anyone?

Dude seriously this RAW vs RAI has it's limits. Assume you have a piece of a random Deitiy in your spell component pouch? Pun-Pun is a mental excersise for sure but many players argue that he is actually legal per 3.5, whcih i am hoping to disprove.
Even if the above-mentioned methods don't cover the case, there is still the epic feat called Ignore Material Components, which solves the problem without any doubt. And since a venerable dragonwrought kobold counts as a true dragon of sufficient age category, he can take this feat all by himself (that, or just copy it through Ice Assasin or Manipulate Form). Also, there is a way to get a spell changed into SLA and get rid of the pesky material and XP cost: Dweomerkeeper does exactly the thing.

As far as the issue of Pun-Pun becoming an overdeity goes, by RAW Divine Rank over 20 equals overdeity. There is nothing there to differentiate deities by the source of their Divine Ranks. Who knows, maybe Ao actually is Pun-Pun. :smalltongue: And yes, Ice Assassin is a badly written spell just as many other easily exploitable things in D&D.


Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the future doesn't exist yet, and that if you travel to the past you create an offshoot reality that is now different from yours.
If only it could be that simple. Unfortunetly future, past and present are not objective terms in physics, so all of them have to exist. It get's worse after adding Feynman to the mix - basically what happens now is the sum of all possible pasts and to determine, what should happen next, you sum all possible futures. You could sat, that all possible universes exist all at once and we just choose (probably) the way to go.

Doc Roc
2010-06-30, 09:30 AM
I'm sorry, what exactly made you all think Pun Pun WASN'T Ao ? :smallwink:

And the Lady of Pain too, in his spare time. Every other god in the pantheon is just part of his cosmic puppet show. Omnipotent kobolds have to entertain themselves too.

Normally, we TOers opt to just ignore Sigil, because it's effectively an unpredictable element. But other than that, yeah. I've never been hugely fond of the Wish and the Word, because I felt like their core gimmick was basically dishonest. Besides, they really aren't as powerful as the TGDers think they are. I would wager that if we raised the level cap on ToS, they wouldn't even be in the top ten.

lesser_minion
2010-06-30, 09:35 AM
The material needed for Pun-Pun was published after the material needed for the Wish.

Going by the assumption that a ridiculously cheesy character emerges when the requisite material is published, and that the first to emerge can and will prevent the ascension of any others, Pun-Pun is never able to ascend, and enters the arena a 1st level fallen kobold paladin.

Otherwise, both have the ability to emulate all of the abilities of the other, so this would never go anywhere.

Myth
2010-06-30, 09:36 AM
Even if the above-mentioned methods don't cover the case, there is still the epic feat called Ignore Material Components, which solves the problem without any doubt. And since a venerable dragonwrought kobold counts as a true dragon of sufficient age category, he can take this feat all by himself (that, or just copy it through Ice Assasin or Manipulate Form). Also, there is a way to get a spell changed into SLA and get rid of the pesky material and XP cost: Dweomerkeeper does exactly the thing.

As far as the issue of Pun-Pun becoming an overdeity goes, by RAW Divine Rank over 20 equals overdeity. There is nothing there to differentiate deities by the source of their Divine Ranks. Who knows, maybe Ao actually is Pun-Pun. And yes, Ice Assassin is a badly written spell just as many other easily exploitable things in D&D.Touche on the SLA, however I still think that Ao is superrior. Pun-Pun's Divine Ranks are infinite but measurable. Depending on how many times he did the proxy exploit, one can get his Divine Rank. If you were to stop time at any point, Pun-Pun would be at a large, but finite DR level. Ao has no publishd DR, now don't make me dig in the FR lore to quote on how he is basically the DM and can do anything. Pun-Pun is bound by mechanics, Ao is not. Even if both are Overdeites, one has the disadvantage of actually having stats. And it ain't Ao.

On a side note, Deities can cast Ice Assassin pretty much at will with Alter Reality. Does this mean they can all become Overdeities way before Pun-Pun? Doesn't that mean that Ao will actually intervene BEFORE they ascend and become his new neighbors, and leave the mortals to rot?

Doc Roc
2010-06-30, 09:36 AM
The material needed for Pun-Pun was published after the material needed for the Wish.

So going by the assumption that any cheesegod character emerges when the requisite material is published, Pun-Pun is never able to ascend, and enters the arena a 1st level fallen kobold paladin.

Our usual assumption is that it's based on amount of xp needed. Both the Wish and the word are fundamentally higher level builds, which is one reason they aren't as well known. Simply put, the Wish is obsolete, and the Word is based on some questionable rulings.

lesser_minion
2010-06-30, 09:41 AM
Our usual assumption is that it's based on amount of xp needed. Both the Wish and the word are fundamentally higher level builds, which is one reason they aren't as well known. Simply put, the Wish is obsolete, and the Word is based on some questionable rulings.

I know. My point is that it depends on what assumptions you make.

The Wish is simply a wish-abuse build, and most of the lower-level Pun-Puns (including the 1st-level Paladin one) depend on the same trick.

Doc Roc
2010-06-30, 09:46 AM
I know. My point is that it depends on what assumptions you make.

It's worth bearing in mind that the core of The Wish is wish abuse, which is also the starting point for Pun-Pun.

One can do pun pun without wish abuse, actually, if you need to. It's annoying, and difficult, but doable.

lesser_minion
2010-06-30, 09:50 AM
One can do pun pun without wish abuse, actually, if you need to. It's annoying, and difficult, but doable.

I know that -- IIRC, the least cheesy Pun-Pun build is the egotist one using metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer (least cheesy in that until you get Manipulate Form, absolutely nothing you do can be remotely construed as against RAI, let alone RAW).

But the wish-abuse builds are still generally lower level -- including the 1st-level Paladin build.

I find it rather amusing that a supposedly Forgotten Realms character has a prestige class that's associated with Greyhawk.

candycorn
2010-06-30, 09:56 AM
Rank 21+

These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#rank21Plus)

That seems pretty blatant RAW to me.


The problem with that is... It opens up "Approval Required" for pun pun to even take a Divine Rank at all. If you need an explicit yes, then the default answer is no.

Which means that in any system that requires consent to become a god, it can be assumed that Pun Pun is not able to attain salient divine abilities.

Telonius
2010-06-30, 10:12 AM
yes, but the only way a D&D world can properly exist, if we assume pun-pun to be a possible outcome, is one of 4 things:

A) pun pun just doesn't care about the world enough to be a jerk about his deus ex machina powers so no one ever tries to stop him from his evil and terrifying master plan of "i'm simply going to watch the world and it's people because they're funny".

B) diverging timelines keep the world from imploding. when someone goes to kill pun-pun it splits the timeline in 2: one where PP is alive and well as his assassin is destroyed and one where PP has never existed in the first place.

C) pun pun is bored of existance and lets himself gets killed. teh endz.

D) the future is not set in stone. if you can predict X from happening, you can probably stop it. just because punpun is ready to ascend doesn't mean he will in the future.

Subset of A), used in all of my campaigns:
Punpun has already ascended. Having granted himself an arbitrary amount of Wisdom, he has realized that he is, in fact, a theoretical build created by a bunch of nerds on the internet. He grants himself the power of "Smite Cheese" to prevent anyone from approaching his level of power, and becomes the Avatar of the DM within the gaming world.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 10:18 AM
Especially since he doesn't have to breathe or worry about water pressure. He can probably get some really neat photos of the critters that live on the ocean floor.

Oh, lol.

white text!

Douglas
2010-06-30, 10:22 AM
Touche on the SLA, however I still think that Ao is superrior. Pun-Pun's Divine Ranks are infinite but measurable. Depending on how many times he did the proxy exploit, one can get his Divine Rank. If you were to stop time at any point, Pun-Pun would be at a large, but finite DR level. Ao has no publishd DR, now don't make me dig in the FR lore to quote on how he is basically the DM and can do anything. Pun-Pun is bound by mechanics, Ao is not. Even if both are Overdeites, one has the disadvantage of actually having stats. And it ain't Ao.

On a side note, Deities can cast Ice Assassin pretty much at will with Alter Reality. Does this mean they can all become Overdeities way before Pun-Pun? Doesn't that mean that Ao will actually intervene BEFORE they ascend and become his new neighbors, and leave the mortals to rot?
Somewhere in the big post describing the main Pun-pun build is an FAQ that includes something like "But wouldn't the gods...?" The answer is, essentially, "That's beside the point. This is a RAW thought exercise, not a debate on whether or not this could actually happen in a campaign world's environment."

Gametime
2010-06-30, 10:56 AM
Touche on the SLA, however I still think that Ao is superrior. Pun-Pun's Divine Ranks are infinite but measurable. Depending on how many times he did the proxy exploit, one can get his Divine Rank. If you were to stop time at any point, Pun-Pun would be at a large, but finite DR level. Ao has no publishd DR, now don't make me dig in the FR lore to quote on how he is basically the DM and can do anything. Pun-Pun is bound by mechanics, Ao is not. Even if both are Overdeites, one has the disadvantage of actually having stats. And it ain't Ao.

On a side note, Deities can cast Ice Assassin pretty much at will with Alter Reality. Does this mean they can all become Overdeities way before Pun-Pun? Doesn't that mean that Ao will actually intervene BEFORE they ascend and become his new neighbors, and leave the mortals to rot?

Two things.

1. You say that Pun-Pun's divine rank is infinite and that it is finite within the same post. The latter is correct; Pun-Pun can gain an arbitrarily large divine rank, but not (to the best of my knowledge) an infinite one.

2. Ao's divine rank is unknown. This is not the same thing as having immeasurable divine rank. Also, just because he isn't statted out doesn't mean that he is automatically more powerful; it means that any direct comparison is impossible, but it certainly doesn't mean that Pun-Pun is definitely worse. Given that Pun-Pun can literally gain any ability, has infinite reach across infinite planes, and can make his stats arbitrarily large, I think it's safe to say that he is almost certainly Ao's equal given the time to build up.

Whether Ao would allow Pun-Pun to come into existence is another issue, since he almost certainly predates Pun-Pun if we ignore time travel shenanigans.

On that note, I definitely favor the interpretation that Pun-Pun, as a paladin, is a well-intentioned extremist who ascends to infinite heights of power so that he can regulate the universe and prevent anyone with more dastardly intentions from doing the same.

Myth
2010-06-30, 11:03 AM
1. You say that Pun-Pun's divine rank is infinite and that it is finite within the same post. The latter is correct; Pun-Pun can gain an arbitrarily large divine rank, but not (to the best of my knowledge) an infinite one.

2. Ao's divine rank is unknown. This is not the same thing as having immeasurable divine rank. Also, just because he isn't statted out doesn't mean that he is automatically more powerful; it means that any direct comparison is impossible, but it certainly doesn't mean that Pun-Pun is definitely worse. Given that Pun-Pun can literally gain any ability, has infinite reach across infinite planes, and can make his stats arbitrarily large, I think it's safe to say that he is almost certainly Ao's equal given the time to build up.English is not my native language and even though i'm fairly eloquent, sometimes when i'm posting out of the office, i tend to write like that. But you do know what i meant, so no harm done :)

Yes, Ao is unstatted and thus one can't do a direct comparisson. It is, however, stated that he is not bound by any conditions. Pun-Pun HAS to go by the rules to aquire say, Trap The Soul. Sure he can get it, but he will spend x ammount of time in doing it. His stats and DR are Arbitrarily High, that is the correct term I understand it now. However at any given point Ao can make himself Pun-Pun+1 and take it from there, since he does not have to play by the rules. An example of Ao's superiority is the Time of Troubles. There is no mechanic behind the Time of Troubles and depriving the Gods of their realms and true forms etc. so Pun-Pun can't duplicate it. He is a crude, brutish version of an Overdeity. Sure he can slap the Deities around with a stick and kill them, but that's not the point.

Smashing him up in pre-ascension is by far the easiest way to do it, and every Deity worth it's salt will do that via Portfolio Sense, no Overdeites needed.

Gametime
2010-06-30, 11:18 AM
Yes, Ao is unstatted and thus one can't do a direct comparisson. It is, however, stated that he is not bound by any conditions. Pun-Pun HAS to go by the rules to aquire say, Trap The Soul. Sure he can get it, but he will spend x ammount of time in doing it. His stats and DR are Arbitrarily High, that is the correct term I understand it now. However at any given point Ao can make himself Pun-Pun+1 and take it from there, since he does not have to play by the rules. An example of Ao's superiority is the Time of Troubles. There is no mechanic behind the Time of Troubles and depriving the Gods of their realms and true forms etc. so Pun-Pun can't duplicate it. He is a crude, brutish version of an Overdeity. Sure he can slap the Deities around with a stick and kill them, but that's not the point.

Smashing him up in pre-ascension is by far the easiest way to do it, and every Deity worth it's salt will do that via Portfolio Sense, no Overdeites needed.

Not being bound by the rules doesn't mean Ao can do anything - it just means we don't know what he can do. Having no stats means there are no things that Ao definitely can't do, but it also means that there are no things he definitely can do. If you can find me some text that says that Ao can literally do anything, I'll agree that he can become Pun-Pun +1, but until then I'm not convinced. Being way stronger than all the gods in FR doesn't make him automatically better than everything; Pun-Pun himself easily outstrips all the normal FR gods, and every other published god to boot.

Smacking him down pre-ascension is still definitely viable, though. I'm not sure who would sense it - maybe someone with Reptiles in their portfolio, since the Sarrukh is so closely involved? Maybe deities who govern Magic would also notice it.

Ranos
2010-06-30, 11:35 AM
snip

You do know Pun Pun's main power is the power to have any and all abilities, whether they exist or not, right ? He could certainly create the Time of Troubles if he wanted to.

Also, my char>your char
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4720/1277864682053.jpg

Aharon
2010-06-30, 11:45 AM
@Doc Roc/anyone else who can answer this question:

Why is The Wish obsolete?

And why is it not that powerful? By it's description, it still sounds rather good - it uses its wishes to get lots of crafted contingencies, for example. And it can wish for anything else, so it could be a better Cube, too.

Asssuming other builds are bound by ToS rules and it isn't, it wins due to breaking WBL. Assuming it is bound by ToS rules, it's not that impressive, seeing how wish doesn't have the capabilities it usually has. And assuming everybody involved isn't bound by ToS rules... I have no idea.

Ranos
2010-06-30, 11:56 AM
Well, breaking WBL isn't exactly that hard to begin with. But assuming you can't buy and sell anything from a magic mart, you've got an infinity of the less powerful items, but the more powerful ones are still outside your reach.

Jallorn
2010-06-30, 12:02 PM
Pun-Pun vs. Cthuluh.

Try that one on.

I don't actually know anything about Cthuluh, so I'm gonna put my money on Pun-pun again.

lesser_minion
2010-06-30, 12:04 PM
@Doc Roc/anyone else who can answer this question:

Why is The Wish obsolete?

And why is it not that powerful? By it's description, it still sounds rather good - it uses its wishes to get lots of crafted contingencies, for example. And it can wish for anything else, so it could be a better Cube, too.

Asssuming other builds are bound by ToS rules and it isn't, it wins due to breaking WBL. Assuming it is bound by ToS rules, it's not that impressive, seeing how wish doesn't have the capabilities it usually has. And assuming everybody involved isn't bound by ToS rules... I have no idea.

Erm... neither Pun-Pun nor The Wish is allowed in ToS at all...

Ranos
2010-06-30, 12:24 PM
Pun-Pun vs. Cthuluh.

Try that one on.

I don't actually know anything about Cthuluh, so I'm gonna put my money on Pun-pun again.

Boat wins.

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 12:27 PM
D20 version of Cthulhu is pretty low on the power scale for a deity (and is 3.0 so needs updating)

It's built using some of the ideas from Deities & Demigods, but it may not have as much power as a "pure D&D" deity would.

Aharon
2010-06-30, 12:32 PM
@Ranos
Well, The Wish assumes just wishing for items, per the following clauses of wish:


Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.[...]When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

So all powerful items except artifacts are within your reach. You can wish for a Cloak of Charisma +100000, for example. Using a wish from an item or an efreeti or something, and thus circumventing the XP-cost of 8*10^12.

@lesser_minion
I'm aware of that fact, but Doc Roc said earlier in this thread that The Wish and The Word are overestimated by the TGDers, and that if the level cap of the ToS was extended, they wouldn't be among the top ten builds. That's why I asked.

omglolnub
2010-06-30, 12:40 PM
Pun-Pun, simply because he gives himself the ability Beat Cthulu (Ex).

However, the real Cthulu doesn't need to be powerful, as he eats 1d4 adventurers as a free action once per round.

While were on this ball: Pun-Pun vs. Azathoth, Ao vs Azathoth, and the second best (aka not Pun-Pun) TO build vs Azathoth.

Since there is no "true" second best build, I'll leave it up to you to decide.

Personally, Hulking Hurler vs Azathoth, I'm going Hurler, since he can possibly hit him without having to risk the 1000 mile radius insanity checks.

Ranos
2010-06-30, 12:42 PM
Huh. I was under the impression Wish was limited to 15000 GP but now that I look, it's not in the SRD. Must have dreamt it.



Personally, Hulking Hurler vs Azathoth, I'm going Hurler, since he can possibly hit him without having to risk the 1000 mile radius insanity checks.

But won't the rock he throws go insane and sprout four-dimensional tentacles or whatever ?

hamishspence
2010-06-30, 12:45 PM
It doesn't specify a limit for magical items though.

in 3.0, it had a GP limit for magical items as well.

Beorn080
2010-06-30, 12:52 PM
Back on track, The Wish and The Word win. Action Economy. At this level of optimization, The Wish can give an effectively unlimited number of even just basic Orange Ioun stones to the Word, and emulate anything with his wishes. Two on one with effective immortals makes things interesting.

Oslecamo
2010-06-30, 12:52 PM
So all powerful items except artifacts are within your reach. You can wish for a Cloak of Charisma +100000, for example. Using a wish from an item or an efreeti or something, and thus circumventing the XP-cost of 4*10^12.


It doesn't work with items. If a spell has an exp cost it must be paid with the crafting of the item.



Back on track, The Wish and The Word win. Action Economy. At this level of optimization, The Wish can give an effectively unlimited number of even just basic Orange Ioun stones to the Word, and emulate anything with his wishes. Two on one with effective immortals makes things interesting.

No it doesn't. Pun-Pun laughs at your innocence, screams "kage-bushin no jutsu!" and now there's a million pun-pun clones. No, a billion. No, infinite pun puns each with infinite actions. And those actions are whatever they want.

Kris Strife
2010-06-30, 12:56 PM
I'm sorry, what exactly made you all think Pun Pun WASN'T Ao ? :smallwink:

And the Lady of Pain too, in his spare time. Every other god in the pantheon is just part of his cosmic puppet show. Omnipotent kobolds have to entertain themselves too.

The LoP is the Divine Rank 0 squirrels Pun-Pun used in his ascension, under a hooded robe.

Flickerdart
2010-06-30, 01:10 PM
Pun-Pun can, after ascension, emulate the Omniscificer and literally gain infinite stats and skills. So that's not a problem.

Gametime
2010-06-30, 01:15 PM
Personally, Hulking Hurler vs Azathoth, I'm going Hurler, since he can possibly hit him without having to risk the 1000 mile radius insanity checks.

Most of the Hurlers I've seen don't have the spot checks necessary to actually hit the things they are capable of theoretically reaching.

That said, Azathoth is unlikely to actually win against anything, even if he doesn't lose. Being omnipotent is only helpful when you aren't also blind and completely incapable of rational thought.

omglolnub
2010-06-30, 01:31 PM
Most of the Hurlers I've seen don't have the spot checks necessary to actually hit the things they are capable of theoretically reaching.

That said, Azathoth is unlikely to actually win against anything, even if he doesn't lose. Being omnipotent is only helpful when you aren't also blind and completely incapable of rational thought.

True, but something so large it wasn't even given a size can't be that hard to miss if you're facing the right direction, just chuck and pray a couple of times!

And if something is permanently mad, and thus can't attack you, you've won by DnD standards!

Gametime
2010-06-30, 01:40 PM
True, but something so large it wasn't even given a size can't be that hard to miss if you're facing the right direction, just chuck and pray a couple of times!

And if something is permanently mad, and thus can't attack you, you've won by DnD standards!

Keep in mind you'll have to throw it hard enough to reach terminal velocity and actually hit Azathoth, instead of just getting taken in his by his orbit.

Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about physics and the above information may or may not accurately represent the difficulties of hitting a galaxy-sized mad god.

omglolnub
2010-06-30, 01:50 PM
Keep in mind you'll have to throw it hard enough to reach terminal velocity and actually hit Azathoth, instead of just getting taken in his by his orbit.

Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about physics and the above information may or may not accurately represent the difficulties of hitting a galaxy-sized mad god.

Well, since it's the astral plain it's hard to say, but since it has relative gravity IIRC, then an object could theoretically accelerate infinitely, though there may be air resistance on the astral.

Though the gravity well of Azathoth must be f***ing huge.

Doc Roc
2010-06-30, 01:54 PM
Boat wins.

As they say...
Nice boat.

What I meant is that the Wish comes online relatively late for what it does. The Word is.... questionable at best, and relies on a huge chunk of material from the single most banned book in the game on top of that. In a game where things like Pun-Pun and the Neo-terminators are strictly legal, it is to my mind at best a pale accomplishment.

Ingus
2010-06-30, 06:19 PM
Poor W&W has no chance.

The ultimate response of Pun Pun being stoppable resides on salient ability of greater gods already quoted, or...
I'll be aristotelian. Pun Pun moves (=uses all his loopholes to increase in power). So, if he moves, he has to respect cause-effect laws. As he moves, he take momentum froma an Unmoved Mover.
He really not moves by itself.

...ok, out of metaphysics, call it Ao, call it Iluvatar, call it Chuck Norris, there is ever a ubergod, and as Waterdeep novel suggests, there is at least a ubergod of ubergods too. Maybe he eats hubrys-like kobolds as regular diet :smallbiggrin:
And, by the way, in most settings this is RAW

Ozymandias9
2010-06-30, 07:40 PM
What I meant is that the Wish comes online relatively late for what it does.

This. If all concerned start at level 1, Pun-Pun gets to his TO state fast enough that he can trivially deal with W&W. If they both start at a fully optimized state, Pun-Pun is in a position to handily win.

The only thing that W&W has going for it is that because the Wish is based on easy access to Wish, it has reasonable capacity to become Pun-Pun. It just gets there slower than most.

TroubleBrewing
2010-06-30, 08:40 PM
yes, but the only way a D&D world can properly exist, if we assume pun-pun to be a possible outcome, is one of 4 things:


You forgot the 5th thing: In the D&D universe, no DM is crazy enough not to Rule Zero Pun-pun's kobold butt back to character creation.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-30, 08:49 PM
The real question is, if Pun-Pun can beat anyone, and is unbeatable, what would happen if Pun-Pun fought Pun-Pun?

puppyavenger
2010-06-30, 08:53 PM
The real question is, if Pun-Pun can beat anyone, and is unbeatable, what would happen if Pun-Pun fought Pun-Pun?

in a six-second span, both of them would go into a constant loop of granting themselves powers called "kill pun-pun" and "anti-kill pun-pun", with each new iteration stating that the previous one is useless against it.

Ranos
2010-06-30, 09:14 PM
You forgot the 5th thing: In the D&D universe, no DM is crazy enough not to Rule Zero Pun-pun's kobold butt back to character creation.

DM ? Which CR was that creature again ? Pun pun can probably beat it.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-30, 09:17 PM
You forgot the 5th thing: In the D&D universe, no DM is crazy enough not to Rule Zero Pun-pun's kobold butt back to character creation.

Pun-Pun is a thought experiment. He can't exist in a universe with a DM for that exact reason you described, so the DM cannot be used as an arguement against Pun-Pun...they're mutually exclusive entities.

taltamir
2010-06-30, 09:32 PM
the wish:
infinite free wishes, and everything you can wish for.

the word:
access to all spells printed at will at caster level 122. with a focus on holy word and blasphemy spells.

Punpun:
Infinite everything.

Pun thus would win, he is immune to the blasphemy and holy word due to have high enough HP (infinite), and he can take anything else they can dish out because his everything is infinite.
The wish and the word are very cool, and indeed could annihilate any printed creature ever, such as killing the terraque in one round.. or killed all the gods that they desire to kill... that is, all the gods printed by WOTC... pun pun is a god they cannot touch though.

Gametime
2010-06-30, 09:59 PM
Pun-Pun is a thought experiment. He can't exist in a universe with a DM for that exact reason you described, so the DM cannot be used as an arguement against Pun-Pun...they're mutually exclusive entities.

Which is why Pun-Pun is the DM.

"Rocks fall, you die" isn't nearly so satisfying as "an infinitely long kobold arm reaches out of a recently-appeared portal, skewers you, and retracts."

Marriclay
2010-06-30, 10:26 PM
The real question is, if Pun-Pun can beat anyone, and is unbeatable, what would happen if Pun-Pun fought Pun-Pun?

If they can do nigh infinite damage with nigh infinite reach, it all depends on one die roll

Who won initiative?

Flickerdart
2010-06-30, 10:27 PM
If they can do nigh infinite damage with nigh infinite reach, it all depends on one die roll

Who won initiative?
Both Pun-Puns always roll max as deities.

Marriclay
2010-06-30, 10:29 PM
Both Pun-Puns always roll max as deities.

in that case, they kill each other at exactly the same time, and all that free floating divine power becomes muffins for the fat people that gods are, as the divine power has to go somewhere, and they're generally the ones to take it

Doc Roc
2010-06-30, 10:32 PM
in a six-second span, both of them would go into a constant loop of granting themselves powers called "kill pun-pun" and "anti-kill pun-pun", with each new iteration stating that the previous one is useless against it.

Actually, this is an intensely complicated question with no perfect answer. It turns out that there is a reasonable chance that even the full version of Pun-pun, nicknamed Monty, is killable. T_G and I used to discuss it every two or three weeks. I rather miss that.


Unrelated note, Marri: Your sig frustrated me immensely, since I've been looking to get my Duel on. I'm not allowed to enter into the ToS arena, so...

Douglas
2010-06-30, 10:34 PM
If they can do nigh infinite damage with nigh infinite reach, it all depends on one die roll

Who won initiative?
Both of them also have nigh infinite hit points. Really, it all comes down to which one picked a bigger ridiculously high number to stop at. The advantage, therefore, goes to whichever one is controlled by a player who is better at the My number is bigger! (http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469) game (warning, the later parts of that thread get into some pretty advanced and complicated math, as the challenge rapidly turns into outclassing the number of particles in the universe by more orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude, yet still expressing the number in a computable fashion in a reasonable length post).

Marriclay
2010-06-30, 10:41 PM
Both of them also have nigh infinite hit points. Really, it all comes down to which one picked a bigger ridiculously high number to stop at. The advantage, therefore, goes to whichever one is controlled by a player who is better at the My number is bigger! (http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7469) game (warning, the later parts of that thread get into some pretty advanced and complicated math, as the challenge rapidly turns into outclassing the number of particles in the universe by more orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude, yet still expressing the number in a computable fashion in a reasonable length post).

so really that just means whoever had more time to do this would be better off. huh.


Unrelated note, Marri: Your sig frustrated me immensely, since I've been looking to get my Duel on. I'm not allowed to enter into the ToS arena, so...

so, you seek to duel me elsewhere? name the place

Douglas
2010-06-30, 11:02 PM
so really that just means whoever had more time to do this would be better off. huh.
As I recall, Pun-pun's buffing routine can be reduced from any arbitrary length to a fixed short time (just a few rounds) by one of the many tricks and combos he uses. Thus, amount of time spent on increasing his power is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is who was more creative in how to name a higher level of power.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 11:14 PM
I think it will stalemate.

Who has the largest number?

You go first. No, you.
No, I insist. I also insist.

And when someone gives up.

Ha, (repeats the number) with a 1 behind.

WinWin
2010-06-30, 11:31 PM
Khan the Destroyer has already put his Pun-Pun build up against the Wish and the Word. Years ago on the old Gleemax optimization board.

Pun-Pun lost. Pun-Pun gave himself the Magic immunity(ex) ability and said "Bring it." The Word laughed and took him out in the first round of combat. With a supernatural ability.

Pun-Pun is great and all, but his main ability is something that the Sarrukh take for granted. Pun-Pun can't do anything that a Sarruck with caster/manifester levels and a familliar/psicrystal can't do. Namely, grant himself the ability of any creature.

Even if it is possible for Pun-Pun to do all of the things that people seem to think he can do, such as grant himself (and his familliar) divine ranks, the fact of the matter is that it is too late. The scaley ones have already done it.

olentu
2010-06-30, 11:37 PM
Khan the Destroyer has already put his Pun-Pun build up against the Wish and the Word. Years ago on the old Gleemax optimization board.

Pun-Pun lost. Pun-Pun gave himself the Magic immunity(ex) ability and said "Bring it." The Word laughed and took him out in the first round of combat. With a supernatural ability.

Pun-Pun is great and all, but his main ability is something that the Sarrukh take for granted. Pun-Pun can't do anything that a Sarruck with caster/manifester levels and a familliar/psicrystal can't do. Namely, grant himself the ability of any creature.

Even if it is possible for Pun-Pun to do all of the things that people seem to think he can do, such as grant himself (and his familliar) divine ranks, the fact of the matter is that it is too late. The scaley ones have already done it.

Ah the greatest weakness of any character a player who plays it apsosuperlutely terribadly.

Douglas
2010-06-30, 11:40 PM
Pun-Pun lost. Pun-Pun gave himself the Magic immunity(ex) ability and said "Bring it." The Word laughed and took him out in the first round of combat. With a supernatural ability.
All that proves is that one particular player neglected to use his ability to give himself nigh infinite hit dice.

WinWin
2010-06-30, 11:47 PM
All it proves is that the creator of Pun-Pun lost a challenge he made. In 1 round.

It still does not change the fact that any Sarrukh with caster/manifester levels would reach ascendancy before Pun-Pun even hatched. Without calling on Pazuzu...

olentu
2010-06-30, 11:50 PM
All it proves is that the creator of Pun-Pun lost a challenge he made. In 1 round.

It still does not change the fact that any Sarrukh with caster/manifester levels would reach ascendancy before Pun-Pun even hatched. Without calling on Pazuzu...

Just because one creates something does not mean that one uses it as best it can be used. This is evidenced by 3.5 D&D.

Douglas
2010-06-30, 11:51 PM
Ah, but Manipulate Form specifically does not work on Sarrukh. A Sarrukh could help someone else ascend to Pun-pun status, but it cannot itself ascend.

WinWin
2010-06-30, 11:56 PM
Once a Sarrukh has a familliar/psicrystal, it can begin the share spells looping. That ability ignores type/restrictions.

Gametime
2010-07-01, 12:02 AM
All it proves is that the creator of Pun-Pun lost a challenge he made. In 1 round.

It still does not change the fact that any Sarrukh with caster/manifester levels would reach ascendancy before Pun-Pun even hatched. Without calling on Pazuzu...

So what you're saying is that Pun-Pun is irrelevant because a creature with all the abilities of Pun-Pun could exist before him, anyway?

I fail to see the difference, from the standpoint of judging power, between Pun-Pun and Pun-Pun 2: Electric Boogaloo. The point is that a creature capable of granting itself any ability can defeat the Wish and the Word. Obviously, that's not a given - he could've given himself Slow Fall, after all, and that wouldn't've helped him much - but poor play hardly reflects poorly on the build.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 12:05 AM
Both of them also have nigh infinite hit points.

First of, there are 3 of them. The wish, the word, and pun-pun. three separate individuals.
Secondly... as far as I understand it, the wish and the word have a very large number, but not infinite. Did I miss something when reading through their description? how do they get infinite HP?

WinWin
2010-07-01, 12:13 AM
Infinite hp is as easy as infinite constitution. HD require some trickery, easiest I can think of atm is awaken or level drain cheese.

As it stands, Pun-Pun requires 2 campaign settings and a broad interpretation of the term scaley one. In other words, it fails. Only Sarrukh are scaley ones. Unlike Pun-Pun, the Wish and the Word are made from valid interpretations of the rules.

The only way Pun-Pun can succeed is if he is really a Sarrukh in disguse. No doubt the lie has been spread by the legion of Sarrukh overgods :smallsmile:

Gametime
2010-07-01, 12:15 AM
As it stands, Pun-Pun requires 2 campaign settings and a broad interpretation of the term scaley one. In other words, it fails. Only Sarrukh are scaley ones. Unlike Pun-Pun, the Wish and the Word are made from valid interpretations of the rules.

The only way Pun-Pun can succeed is if he is really a Sarrukh in disguse. No doubt the lie has been spread by the legion of Sarrukh overgods :smallsmile:

You might just be saying this for the sake of the joke, but you know Scaled Ones is defined at the beginning of Serpent Kingdoms and explicitly includes kobolds, right?

WinWin
2010-07-01, 12:29 AM
To be honest, it has been a long time since I have looked at a lot of 3.x books. Probably why I am referring to Scaled ones as scaley ones:smallwink:

Even if Kobolds fall into that category, it does not change the fact that the Sarrukh would have started infinite looping first...

Only to be taken out by a time-travelling, spelljamming, Illithid Savant Elder Brain Omniscificer :smalltongue:

Marriclay
2010-07-01, 12:31 AM
Even if Kobolds fall into that category, it does not change the fact that the Sarrukh would have started infinite looping first...

Sarrukh are explicitly said to be immune to the effect

Vulaas
2010-07-01, 12:43 AM
Infinite hp is as easy as infinite constitution. HD require some trickery, easiest I can think of atm is awaken or level drain cheese.

As it stands, Pun-Pun requires 2 campaign settings and a broad interpretation of the term scaley one. In other words, it fails. Only Sarrukh are scaley ones. Unlike Pun-Pun, the Wish and the Word are made from valid interpretations of the rules.

The only way Pun-Pun can succeed is if he is really a Sarrukh in disguse. No doubt the lie has been spread by the legion of Sarrukh overgods :smallsmile:

Infinite HD through the Positive Energy Charge ability found in MMIV.

WinWin
2010-07-01, 12:44 AM
Once a Sarrukh has a familliar/psicrystal, it can begin the share spells looping. That ability ignores type/restrictions.

I have said all I am going to on this issue. I do not wish to spoil anyones fun or derail the thread. Thank you. :smallsmile:

2xMachina
2010-07-01, 02:39 AM
All that do is change Pun-Pun's orginal race to Sarrukh rather than Kobold.

Pun Pun still exists. His original race doesn't matter. He can give himself: "Change race to X" if he wants to

Aharon
2010-07-01, 03:50 AM
@Oslecamo
Yes, thanks for the correction. So The Wish should also use one of his wishes to wish for a Ring of over 9000 gates per day, so he has normal wishes for his everyday needs and Wishes without XP-component from efreeti for his uber-items.

@all
slight derail: Does anybody know any creature that has the Energy Charge ability? The only mention of it I ever saw was in the Glossary of a MM. (@Vulaas: I think it was MMIII, not IV, but no creature in it had that ability).

@Doc Roc
Ok, that's clearer. Can't disagree with that.

Clovis
2010-07-01, 05:20 AM
What would happen to either the W&W pair or Pun-Pun if this one came along for the party? Or it's handler?
http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png

Aharon
2010-07-01, 05:34 AM
@Clovis
That's funny, where is it from?
It's easy, for both.
Wish could gate-wish for its' own Neutronium Golems to fight those of his enemy, for example.
(Edit: They are created via Craft Construct, so they can be created with the item-creation option of wish.)
Pun-Pun could just supernatural blasphemy/holy word it.

Edit: As Myth stated, Pun-Pun doesn't care about the Golem's attacks. The Wish could go the less elegant way of wishing for an Amulet of Health +lots and similar items to achieve the same.

Myth
2010-07-01, 06:26 AM
What would happen to either the W&W pair or Pun-Pun if this one came along for the party? Or it's handler?
http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png

Pun-Pun has infinite HP and BAB and STR therefore infinite damage dice. He basically tanks whatever AOE this golem spews out and hits it once. Or you know, if we assume Pun-Pun does indeed get Divine Ranks (which I'm opposed to as if you believe that Ice Assassin can reproduce any ability and creature, you also believe that wtih a 9th level spell one can recreate lord Ao.) he gets Supreme Initative and Divine Blast.

Douglas
2010-07-01, 06:49 AM
First of, there are 3 of them. The wish, the word, and pun-pun. three separate individuals.
Secondly... as far as I understand it, the wish and the word have a very large number, but not infinite. Did I miss something when reading through their description? how do they get infinite HP?
That statement was in response to the Pun-pun vs Pun-pun scenario, and was referring to the two Pun-puns.


As it stands, Pun-Pun requires 2 campaign settings and a broad interpretation of the term scaley one. In other words, it fails. Only Sarrukh are scaley ones.
Er, no. Manipulate Form specifically does not work on Sarrukh, so if "Sarrukh are the only 'scaled ones'" is the correct interpretation then the ability is utterly and completely useless, which is quite obviously not the intent.

The term 'scaled one' is explicitly defined on page 5 of Serpent Kingdoms. Kobolds are specifically listed.


Unlike Pun-Pun, the Wish and the Word are made from valid interpretations of the rules.
Unless it's changed significantly from the last time I read it, the Word depends on a very shaky reading of Ur-Priest caster level, which is at best valid only with one specific meaning of the word 'level' where it seems obvious to me that a different one is what is actually meant.


Once a Sarrukh has a familliar/psicrystal, it can begin the share spells looping. That ability ignores type/restrictions.
Share spells may ignore type restrictions, but without Manipulate Form to turn the benefits into permanent parts of base stats it can't turn into the Pun-pun loop.

Radar
2010-07-01, 09:34 AM
(...)

Share spells may ignore type restrictions, but without Manipulate Form to turn the benefits into permanent parts of base stats it can't turn into the Pun-pun loop.
Different route: swap bodies (there has to be something more permanent then the Magic Jar) with a buffed creature (it only needs to have one stat buffed, so no problem with saving throws or something) and then use the regular routine to copy the buffs to all other stats. As for any Ex, Su or SLA abilities, you gain them thanks to our best friend Ice Assassin and psionic Fusion.
You could also upgrade your stats through any other means - shapechanging into a Shambling Mound or abusing Greater Consumptive Field.

Doc Roc
2010-07-01, 02:12 PM
There are more permanent effects than Mjar. So the issue now, is that we're back to about even on complexity.

The wish is legal, for a moderate and TO-reasonable level of legal, the word is a dumb joke that somehow caught on. The issue is that the best thing that the wish can wish for is to pick up sarruk abilities.

He is, at best, a lesser formulation of pun-pun. After all, you can just get infinite wishes as pun-pun. So does that mean I get to dance around and name a build the WishPun? Pun-Wisher? His emblem will be a sarruhk skull on a black t-shirt.

okpokalypse
2010-07-01, 03:05 PM
Screw Pun Pun :)

The Wish and The Word find out who Pun-Pun's Parents are, go back in time via limitless wishes, and smote them before his conception, and thus, retroactive sentience. That is, if they know of his existence before he knows of theirs...

Of course, the Moment these two are aware of one another and/or meet we're stuck in an infinite loop of immediate actions, since I'd be assuming they both had the foresight to wish for limitless and unhindered immediate actions, or something of that vein :).

Imagine two people playing Magic, both with infinite Blue Mana and Drawing a Card after every played Card, and each time a card is drawn, it's a counterspell.

If they didn't alter that mechanic, The Wish and The Word always win. Why? Because even if Pun Pun wins Initiative, the Word only need "Interrupt" Pun Pun's action with a Wish to leave back in time, and if Pun Pun uses his only Immediate Action left, The Wish then Interrupts THAT with an Immediate Wish, and they travel back in time before Pun Pun's conception and annihilate his Parents in that Same Round via Holy Word.

When two nearly infinite beings meet, it's always the one with more Actions that wins...

2xMachina
2010-07-01, 03:11 PM
Pun Pun: It has everything. Including The Wish and the Word's powers.

And it can add the Chrono(thing) race ability that gives it 2 standard actions. Or go further, and add an ability to take NI full round actions in a turn.

Deth Muncher
2010-07-01, 03:14 PM
So does that mean I get to dance around and name a build the WishPun? Pun-Wisher? His emblem will be a sarruhk skull on a black t-shirt.

Heh. I lol'd.

Oslecamo
2010-07-01, 03:21 PM
If they didn't alter that mechanic, The Wish and The Word always win. Why? Because even if Pun Pun wins Initiative, the Word only need "Interrupt" Pun Pun's action with a Wish to leave back in time, and if Pun Pun uses his only Immediate Action left, The Wish then Interrupts THAT with an Immediate Wish, and they travel back in time before Pun Pun's conception and annihilate his Parents in that Same Round via Holy Word.

You go back in time...And end up in the big bang. Roll a fort save against infinite DC or be utterly anihilated.

Sorry, but time traveling definetely doesn't fall on the "safe" uses of wish.:smallwink:



When two nearly infinite beings meet, it's always the one with more Actions that wins...

Wich would be pun-pun, as he can emulate the borked psionic combo to spam that power that gives you extra "floating" standard actions to get as much actions as he damn wishes. Or any of the other combos out there to gain extra imediate actions.

okpokalypse
2010-07-01, 03:29 PM
Wich would be pun-pun, as he can emulate the borked psionic combo to spam that power that gives you extra "floating" standard actions to get as much actions as he damn wishes. Or any of the other combos out there to gain extra imediate actions.

Yes, but Standard Actions resolve in a linear order. So if one were to create an extra N standard actions, N1 still happens before N2.

An Interrupt preceeds N1, which Pun Pun can then Interrupt himself, and the other party of The Wish / The Word combo can then Interrupt that Interrupt.

Does Pun Pun have an innate ability to alter the mechanic of 1 Swift / Immediate Action per game turn? I don't believe so. That would have had to have been manually added in, and thus if you assume he had the foresight to do so, so would The Wish / The Word as well.

In that latter case, the universe basically halts in an endless array of countered actions going on into 1/Infinity time. In the former, the Wish / Word combo actually wins.

As for the restricting of Time Travel via Wish by Infinite DC saves, that's rule-0 my friend, in which case the powers that be have already rule-0'd pun pun and the Wish / Word themselves, so they would never exist in a rule-0 environment in the 1st place. This is a RAW exercise :)

2xMachina
2010-07-01, 03:33 PM
Pun Pun:
Adds: Unlimited Uninteruptable Interupt (Ex) to self.

Seriously, it's Calvin Ball territory here.

Alleine
2010-07-01, 03:44 PM
For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature.

Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Emphasis mine. Lots of people seem to forget that Pun Pun can do this. This means pun pun can grant himself the ability:

Lulz I win(Ex): Pun pun cannot be harmed in any way, no, not even then. This ability includes every way you attempt to think of defeating him in the future and all attempts in the past.


And if you don't want to go into that territory, he still has EVERY class feature, every racial ability, every feat, and everything in between. To say he is at LEAST as powerful as any of his opponents(short of the mortiverse) is understating things. By a lot.

okpokalypse
2010-07-01, 03:51 PM
Pun Pun:
Adds: Unlimited Uninteruptable Interupt (Ex) to self.

Seriously, it's Calvin Ball territory here.

But that's the thing. He would have had to anticipate needing that in the 1st place. You're making the assumption that anything he could have in place is actually in place, which is erroneous. Sure, you can say infinite HD and spellcasting and stats and all that... But where a mechanical change to the game is in place, well, I wouldn't buy that.

At that point it's no longer an exercise in game mechanics / play, but is a "what did I not think of when I put all those great things in there. Oh THAT, Well, that's in there now too - so nyah!" Which, for all intents and purposes, the Wish and the Word could also emulate. So it's a stalemate.

Alleine
2010-07-01, 03:58 PM
And you seem to be assuming that the wish is getting unhindered wishes with unlimited scope and power, which is against RAW. The problem with wishes that go into the "greater than listed effects" territory is that it is entirely up to the DM, who has no part in this battle whatsoever.

Oslecamo
2010-07-01, 03:59 PM
Which, for all intents and purposes, the Wish and the Word could also emulate. So it's a stalemate.

No, because pun-pun can be unleashed at lv1, Wish and the Word need to gain several levels. More than enough time for Pun-Pun to gain omniscience and stop them.

Cogidubnus
2010-07-01, 04:06 PM
The Wish still has recourse in that he can undo the very laws of causality themselves and remove all traces of such an ill-fated adventure. The Wish of “I wish we never went on this adventure” is still available. If all else fails, The Wish and the Word can flee beyond and before any possible pursuit can even have begun through the cosmic mulligan.

I like this idea.

okpokalypse
2010-07-01, 04:10 PM
"In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature."
Emphasis mine. Lots of people seem to forget that Pun Pun can do this. This means pun pun can grant himself the ability:

Lulz I win(Ex): Pun pun cannot be harmed in any way, no, not even then. This ability includes every way you attempt to think of defeating him in the future and all attempts in the past.

It doesn't actually say create a new ability, it says grant an ability that is SU, EX or SP in nature, which should imply that it needs to exist. You can't metamorphosis (w/ Metamorphic Transfer) into a whole new type of create you design on the fly that has 100 in all stats and complete immunities and what have you... That's just common sense.

And I actually believe that was addressed in one of the Complete Books, and specifically said that open-ended transformations had to follow printed material. This would include Manipulate Form.

Pun Pun IS broken, but it's not THAT broken.

Oslecamo
2010-07-01, 04:21 PM
It doesn't actually say create a new ability, it says grant an ability that is SU, EX or SP in nature, which should imply that it needs to exist. You can't metamorphosis (w/ Metamorphic Transfer) into a whole new type of create you design on the fly that has 100 in all stats and complete immunities and what have you... That's just common sense.

And I actually believe that was addressed in one of the Complete Books, and specifically said that open-ended transformations had to follow printed material. This would include Manipulate Form.

Pun Pun IS broken, but it's not THAT broken.

Then, by all means, all wish can do safely is the options listed in the wish section of the PHB. Wich means he can't travel back in time or pretty much all the stuff you've been claiming so far.

Pun-Pun on the other hand can still cherry pick all the borked monster abilities across all books, wich does include the epic handbook.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-01, 04:22 PM
You can't metamorphosis (w/ Metamorphic Transfer) into a whole new type of create you design on the fly that has 100 in all stats and complete immunities and what have you... That's just common sense.




common sense


:smallbiggrin:Wut?:smallbiggrin:

Doc Roc
2010-07-01, 06:12 PM
Yes, but Standard Actions resolve in a linear order. So if one were to create an extra N standard actions, N1 still happens before N2.

An Interrupt preceeds N1, which Pun Pun can then Interrupt himself, and the other party of The Wish / The Word combo can then Interrupt that Interrupt.

Does Pun Pun have an innate ability to alter the mechanic of 1 Swift / Immediate Action per game turn? I don't believe so. That would have had to have been manually added in, and thus if you assume he had the foresight to do so, so would The Wish / The Word as well.

In that latter case, the universe basically halts in an endless array of countered actions going on into 1/Infinity time. In the former, the Wish / Word combo actually wins.

As for the restricting of Time Travel via Wish by Infinite DC saves, that's rule-0 my friend, in which case the powers that be have already rule-0'd pun pun and the Wish / Word themselves, so they would never exist in a rule-0 environment in the 1st place. This is a RAW exercise :)

Actually, Time travel is only possible using 9th level spells or powers, which are quite hard to arrange in any case. I have a Time-Tram toon that can do it, but the Wish isn't capable of it unless there's a very serious hack I'm unaware of.

It is customary in TO to assume that wish is constrained to what it says in the spell description, because those effects require no adjudication. You could wish for a scroll of one of the correct spells, I suppose, but unfortunately it's simply best done using a dweomerkeeper. Alternatively, a powerstone of temporal regression might work.

The gist of this, though, is that pun-pun pre-exists the wish or the word, and does everything they can do wildly better. Bester, arguably, to coin a new word and reference B5 AND one of my favorite sci-fi authors.

What I am getting at is that the wish is strictly less powerful than pun-pun, unless we are allowing custom items, which the TO community frowns on with a fury. Why? One common thing:

They all require or actively suggest GM-adjudication.
Anything that allows or requires a GM's input is outside the purview of optimization at the char-build level, which is the beating heart of TO. Or was. TO is dead. I should know. I helped hammer in the last few nails, and acted as its pall-bearer. I don't like to talk about this much, because I'm not one to brag, and I'm not one to highlight my more fanciful exercises, but the wish is strictly less powerful than at least six builds I am personally responsible for. One of which instantly compromises the entire material plane when it comes online, which it does well before the Wish.

okpokalypse
2010-07-01, 10:15 PM
Actually, Time travel is only possible using 9th level spells or powers, which are quite hard to arrange in any case. I have a Time-Tram toon that can do it, but the Wish isn't capable of it unless there's a very serious hack I'm unaware of.

It is customary in TO to assume that wish is constrained to what it says in the spell description, because those effects require no adjudication. You could wish for a scroll of one of the correct spells, I suppose, but unfortunately it's simply best done using a dweomerkeeper. Alternatively, a powerstone of temporal regression might work.

The gist of this, though, is that pun-pun pre-exists the wish or the word, and does everything they can do wildly better. Bester, arguably, to coin a new word and reference B5 AND one of my favorite sci-fi authors.

What I am getting at is that the wish is strictly less powerful than pun-pun, unless we are allowing custom items, which the TO community frowns on with a fury. Why? One common thing:

They all require or actively suggest GM-adjudication.
Anything that allows or requires a GM's input is outside the purview of optimization at the char-build level, which is the beating heart of TO. Or was. TO is dead. I should know. I helped hammer in the last few nails, and acted as its pall-bearer. I don't like to talk about this much, because I'm not one to brag, and I'm not one to highlight my more fanciful exercises, but the wish is strictly less powerful than at least six builds I am personally responsible for. One of which instantly compromises the entire material plane when it comes online, which it does well before the Wish.

You are correct, Time Travel via Wish requires DM Intercession. The best time-traveller is the Arch-Psion cheese that lets you keep using Time Hop & Time Regression for free. It's a long combo that I don't recall offhand, but basically at L18 you'd be able to manifest Time Hop or Time Regression as an innate ability an unlimited amount of times per day as a free action. So you can travel back and forth in time as far as you want as a free action.

It's putrid. I've seen it combined with Fission so that a PC is effectively existing in two points of time at once. Talk about DMs going cross-eyed.

Actually, come to think of it, that would actually be the best thing to face Pun Pun, because you just free-action go back in time to before his punitude and mind-switch him and do it youself :). So now you're effectively a pun-pun with infinite free-action time-travel that's mechanically sound as opposed to just making up rules under the guise of Manipulate Form.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-01, 10:22 PM
You are correct, Time Travel via Wish requires DM Intercession. The best time-traveller is the Arch-Psion cheese that lets you keep using Time Hop & Time Regression for free. It's a long combo that I don't recall offhand, but basically at L18 you'd be able to manifest Time Hop or Time Regression as an innate ability an unlimited amount of times per day as a free action. So you can travel back and forth in time as far as you want as a free action.

It's putrid. I've seen it combined with Fission so that a PC is effectively existing in two points of time at once. Talk about DMs going cross-eyed.

Actually, come to think of it, that would actually be the best thing to face Pun Pun, because you just free-action go back in time to before his punitude and mind-switch him and do it youself :). So now you're effectively a pun-pun with infinite free-action time-travel that's mechanically sound as opposed to just making up rules under the guise of Manipulate Form.

Technical point of order - Pun-Pun doesn't have to pull random abilities out of nowhere with Manipulate Form, at least some of the time. He can also instantly invent a brand-new type of creature via instantaneously researched
Origin of Species epic spells, which are expressly customizable to whatever you want, then Manipulate Form to gain their handwritten ability. It's the exact same end result, but on slightly less shaky ground RAW-wise.

Milskidasith
2010-07-01, 10:23 PM
You are correct, Time Travel via Wish requires DM Intercession. The best time-traveller is the Arch-Psion cheese that lets you keep using Time Hop & Time Regression for free. It's a long combo that I don't recall offhand, but basically at L18 you'd be able to manifest Time Hop or Time Regression as an innate ability an unlimited amount of times per day as a free action. So you can travel back and forth in time as far as you want as a free action.

It's putrid. I've seen it combined with Fission so that a PC is effectively existing in two points of time at once. Talk about DMs going cross-eyed.

Actually, come to think of it, that would actually be the best thing to face Pun Pun, because you just free-action go back in time to before his punitude and mind-switch him and do it youself :). So now you're effectively a pun-pun with infinite free-action time-travel that's mechanically sound as opposed to just making up rules under the guise of Manipulate Form.

You don't seem to understand that Pun Pun has all the abilities you just listed at level 1. You can't beat Pun-Pun with something such as this because Pun-Pun get the ability "earlier" (by which I mean level 1).

Yes, I know it technically gets into the whole "time travel utterly destroys any sense of casualty" issue and it becomes an "I just use my time travel to go back before he got time travel and kill him" and "I go back before that and kill you" game, but, basically, Pun-Pun has the ability to time travel like that and do more stuff, so he's still strictly better, and if you assume that both builds start at level 1 at the exact same moment, Pun-Pun takes less time to reach time travelling shenanigans.

Kish
2010-07-01, 10:23 PM
Yes but this mechanic exploit grants him only the RAW bonuses of + divine ranks. So more of the same: Saving Throws, DR, BAB, SDAs... It does not put him at Overdeity level and thus exempt from the rules. Unless you want to interpret the rules where if a deity gains Divine rank above 20 he becomes an Overdeity. However that would mean you read RAI and thus the player who suggested doing anything with Pun-Pun but pointing and laughing at him would get his/her own Forgotten Realms book smashed over his/her head.
Slight amendment...

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:02 PM
Infinite hp is as easy as infinite constitution. HD require some trickery, easiest I can think of atm is awaken or level drain cheese.

and my question is how does the wish and the word get infinite HD and infinite con.

pun puns description clearly states how he does it. theirs does not.


And if you don't want to go into that territory, he still has EVERY class feature, every racial ability, every feat, and everything in between. To say he is at LEAST as powerful as any of his opponents(short of the mortiverse) is understating things. By a lot.

what is the mortiverse?

Milskidasith
2010-07-01, 11:10 PM
and my question is how does the wish and the word get infinite HD and infinite con.

pun puns description clearly states how he does it. theirs does not.



what is the mortiverse?

The mortiverse is an epic monster used with... some book that's probably third party, for advancing creatures, that has billions of hit dice, billions of every stat, incredible size, and save or dies with DCs in the billions and ranges much more than that, along with the ability to create billions of copies of itself that have all its abilities but creating more copies.*

*Numbers may actually be trillions, quadrillions, or pentillions, I can't recall.

It's still weaker than Pun Pun, though, since it is finite.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:27 PM
The mortiverse is an epic monster used with... some book that's probably third party, for advancing creatures, that has billions of hit dice, billions of every stat, incredible size, and save or dies with DCs in the billions and ranges much more than that, along with the ability to create billions of copies of itself that have all its abilities but creating more copies.*

*Numbers may actually be trillions, quadrillions, or pentillions, I can't recall.

It's still weaker than Pun Pun, though, since it is finite.

and someone actually printed such a monster?
Pun pun is at least a thought experiment on forums...

Doc Roc
2010-07-01, 11:37 PM
Okp, the arch-psion tech you are thinking of is the backbone of the neo-terminators, which were used in a thought-experiment with certain assumptions* to reliably kill pun-pun.

*One assumption is that Pun-Pun behaves deterministically, and thus that the universe is effectively deterministic after his rise, and the other is that he does not actively hinder ascensions.*

*It is also assumed that he ascends first, though in the case of the neo-terminators, it becomes difficult to give this meaning*

*It is assumed that he does not adapt instantly to the tricks of his opponents, rather that he again behaves deterministically in the best way possible with an extremely extensive but ultimately well-defined set of characteristics, many of which are infinite. This version is called Monty, and does time-travel as well as perform limited monte-carlo attacks on the time-stream which I cannot be bothered to explain.*

*Consider for a moment, how constraining these axioms are, and now consider that it took a community of very smart and knowledgeable people almost two years to come up with something that worked only under these axioms. Pun-Pun cannot be killed in a fair fight.*

*Elemental Weirds don't fight fair.

Kylarra
2010-07-01, 11:45 PM
what is the mortiverse?
The result of a fair amount of 3rd party combinations.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/2873260-post1.html

Gametime
2010-07-02, 12:13 AM
It's still weaker than Pun Pun, though, since it is finite.

Pun-Pun is effectively finite, too. It's just that Pun-Pun's numbers are (to borrow a Magic term) arbitrarily large; anything you can do, he can do better. He doesn't have to go infinite to do that.

sofawall
2010-07-02, 12:28 AM
Well, his stats (and by extension his saves, AC, damage, hp, etc.) are truly infinite. His skill checks too. His HD, sadly, are only arbitrarily large.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-02, 12:32 AM
What would happen to either the W&W pair or Pun-Pun if this one came along for the party? Or it's handler?
http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png

What's the point of this? You have to be at least level 9717 before this is even considered a fightable monster. If the game breaks down after level 21 I can't imagine what happens when it gets into quadruple digits.

Kylarra
2010-07-02, 12:34 AM
What's the point of this? You have to be at least level 9717 before this is even considered a fightable monster. If the game breaks down after level 21 I can't imagine what happens when it gets into quadruple digits.A demonstration on why bored geeks shouldn't be allowed to play with calculators?

sofawall
2010-07-02, 12:34 AM
What's the point of this? You have to be at least level 9717 before this is even considered a fightable monster. If the game breaks down at level 21 I can't imagine what happens when it gets into quadruple digits.


Fixed that for you.

Eldariel
2010-07-02, 12:35 AM
What would happen to either the W&W pair or Pun-Pun if this one came along for the party? Or it's handler?
http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/IH_Neutronium_Golem.png

Well, Pun-Pun has infinite power; that thing doesn't matter any more than anything else. W&W can, at best, be really bad Pun-Pun shells but if pulling all the stops, that's enough to beat Neutronium Golem. Its capabilities don't really matter since they don't reach singularities and it is unable to take actions whenever it wants to in whatever quantities it wants to unlike Pun-Pun; basically, it's limited.

Pun-Pun truly is omnipotent in every meaning of the word; there's nothing he cannot do and there's nothing that could touch him.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-02, 12:36 AM
Fixed that for you.

Whoops. Thank you for the fix.

Out of curiosity, is that only with Spellcasters using epic spellcasting or just in general?

sofawall
2010-07-02, 12:42 AM
Well, Epic Spellcasting is a massive part, but the game has been switching further and further to the casters every single time you gain a level. It's also been going faster, as if fighters grew linearly, while wizards grew quadratically. Well, even without Epic Spellcasting, wizards are growing at least exponentially compared to the fighters at Epic Levels.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-02, 12:44 AM
Well, Epic Spellcasting is a massive part, but the game has been switching further and further to the casters every single time you gain a level. It's also been going faster, as if fighters grew linearly, while wizards grew quadratically. Well, even without Epic Spellcasting, wizards are growing at least exponentially compared to the fighters at Epic Levels.

What if your group consists of a homebrew Paladin, a Ranger, a Monk and two new players, neither of which will be spellcasters?

So, Tier 3 and less (Unless there are martial characters that are Tier 1 or 2 that I've never heard of)

tyckspoon
2010-07-02, 12:54 AM
What if your group consists of a homebrew Paladin, a Ranger, a Monk and two new players, neither of which will be spellcasters?

So, Tier 3 and less (Unless there are martial characters that are Tier 1 or 2 that I've never heard of)

It'll probably be broken the other way- without epic casters, you are unlikely to have the resources you need to really compete with Epic monsters. Even Epic wealth won't buy you the tools you're going to want and need once you get past the Really Really Old dragons and start fighting the sorts of things printed in the Epic Handbook; the numbers they play with are just too big to fight in a low-optimization environment (keeping in mind that everybody has bad 'BAB' in Epic and the Epic feats for martial characters largely suck.) That, at least, is relatively easy to deal with, since you can just use weaker creatures and build humanoid opponents/advanced devils/whatever the same way you did pre-Epic.

Aharon
2010-07-02, 01:44 AM
@infinite pun-pun
huh? I always thought he only was arbitrarily large, too?

@Taltamir
=>Wish getting infinite con
He can't get infinite, just arbitrarily large via gate=>efreeti=>wish for Amulet of Health +(whatever bonus you want to have)
Or he uses whatever trick Pun-Pun uses, and becomes the infinitely cooler Pun-wisher :smallbiggrin:

@Doc Roc
You probably didn't have those discussions on the old CO board, or if you had, they were eaten by the change? It would be fun to read that.

Doc Roc
2010-07-02, 01:56 AM
@infinite pun-pun
huh? I always thought he only was arbitrarily large, too?

@Taltamir
=>Wish getting infinite con
He can't get infinite, just arbitrarily large via gate=>efreeti=>wish for Amulet of Health +(whatever bonus you want to have)
Or he uses whatever trick Pun-Pun uses, and becomes the infinitely cooler Pun-wisher :smallbiggrin:

@Doc Roc
You probably didn't have those discussions on the old CO board, or if you had, they were eaten by the change? It would be fun to read that.

I did log them, but they... one second. I kept a few logs (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfMTk4aGJteHJ6Z3I&hl=en).

Clovis
2010-07-02, 08:45 AM
What's the point of this? You have to be at least level 9717 before this is even considered a fightable monster. If the game breaks down after level 21 I can't imagine what happens when it gets into quadruple digits.

Just thinking what W&W could possibly do to a caster of a level in quintuple digits, and from the high cosmos to boot. If the said duo began their rule-abuse on a prime world. Idle curiosity... And no, sadly I don't know the origin of the beast, otherwise I would've credited the creator.

Then again, the OP was about the dynamic duo meeting pun-pun 'isself, I thought of a different challenge. Sorry for the distraction!

okpokalypse
2010-07-02, 10:22 AM
No, because pun-pun can be unleashed at lv1, Wish and the Word need to gain several levels. More than enough time for Pun-Pun to gain omniscience and stop them.

Each time Pun Pun buffs himself it takes time. Therefore, if you assume Infinite Stats, HD & so farth, it takes infinite time for him to acheive it :)

Oslecamo
2010-07-02, 10:27 AM
Each time Pun Pun buffs himself it takes time. Therefore, if you assume Infinite Stats, HD & so farth, it takes infinite time for him to acheive it :)

You don't need infinite stats. You just need the borked super-monster and class abilities to make sure nobody else can rise to challenge you ever in all existence and time. Pun pun can travel trough all time as a free action, create trillions of duplicates and plenty more while Wish is just a lv1 character.

Douglas
2010-07-02, 10:32 AM
Each time Pun Pun buffs himself it takes time. Therefore, if you assume Infinite Stats, HD & so farth, it takes infinite time for him to acheive it :)
One of the (many) dirty tricks Pun-pun uses allows him to do any arbitrary amount of buffing in something like 3 or 4 rounds. So no, buffing time is not a major concern for him.

Doc Roc
2010-07-02, 10:43 AM
Zero rounds, actually.

okpokalypse
2010-07-02, 10:47 AM
Okp, the arch-psion tech you are thinking of is the backbone of the neo-terminators, which were used in a thought-experiment with certain assumptions* to reliably kill pun-pun.

*One assumption is that Pun-Pun behaves deterministically, and thus that the universe is effectively deterministic after his rise, and the other is that he does not actively hinder ascensions.*

*It is also assumed that he ascends first, though in the case of the neo-terminators, it becomes difficult to give this meaning*

*It is assumed that he does not adapt instantly to the tricks of his opponents, rather that he again behaves deterministically in the best way possible with an extremely extensive but ultimately well-defined set of characteristics, many of which are infinite. This version is called Monty, and does time-travel as well as perform limited monte-carlo attacks on the time-stream which I cannot be bothered to explain.*

*Consider for a moment, how constraining these axioms are, and now consider that it took a community of very smart and knowledgeable people almost two years to come up with something that worked only under these axioms. Pun-Pun cannot be killed in a fair fight.*

*Elemental Weirds don't fight fair.

Do you have a link to any literature on that. I'd like to read up on it just because I'm a geek that way... :)

As an aside - I hope that my sometimes brash statements don't offend anyone here. I don't mean to be offputting, though I know I have a tendency to be so...

I actually really enjoy the theoretical discussions like this...

But going back to the point at hand, as I wrote in the previous message, one of the big arguments for Pun-Pun's superiority vs any other archetype is that he can start at L1.

Which is great and all, but every single design for him takes into account multiple infinite attrubutes, which one can then argue, if Pun-Pun is spending all that time making himself infinite, how is he...

1. Aware of any other progress in the multiverse.
2. Capable of stopping his infinite buff sequence to deal with anything not presented directly to him.

Just say in theory he starts his infinite Con buff sequence in the arbitrary year 500. Non-withstanding the early fails he'll have where he's knocked unconscious by the ability, it takes him 6 seconds (The two-part transfer) per +12 Buff once he gets to the point of using Giant Size tranfers. That means about +2 Con per Second over the long run. Lets just say he wants 1 Billion Con. That would take him nearly 16 Years to accomplish.

But then, lets say he can do the action swiftly and standardly x2 so that he can cut the time down to a sixth... That's still well over 2 years.

Now you can argue the point that he'd get time manipulation andput himself into an infinite time loop of buffing, but how would pun-pun even know to do that before he buffs his Int. What would he perceive as a threat to need to do that?

It does come down to the concept of determinism. As a Player using Optimization you're going to Meta-Game his pre-emptive actions to attempt to ensure that Pun-Pun will acheive a state of time stillness during his buffs (Well, now you are - being that you might have just realized to do infitie buffing requires infinite time).

When it comes down to it, the original Pun Pun is a brutal and broken concept - but when that designer first took the Pun-Pun build and said "I increase my Con to an Infinitely High Number" he just took him out of the world for all intents and purposes as Pun-Pun sits in a corner of the universe masterbuffing himself into oblivion.

Revisions to the Pun-Pun build now can easily come up with one that only spends about a minute working it's way to an infinite time/buff loop - which is an interesting concept. Would that effectively destroy the universe? Being that Pun-Pun is already there, would he have to keep moving 5' every time so as not to occupy the same space thus filling the universe with infinite mass? Would the infinite collection of energies in one location just suck everything dry? Would the Lady of Pain step in and say, "Umm, No..." ;)

2xMachina
2010-07-02, 11:01 AM
Can you get NI damage? Change it to electricity?

Tack on Shambling mound's ability, zap yourself with NI damage. Have fun with your NI Con, which means NI HP and Fort saves. (It decays by 1 per hour, but it'll take NI to decay enough to be below NI)

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-02, 11:14 AM
This version is called Monty, and does time-travel as well as perform limited monte-carlo attacks on the time-stream which I cannot be bothered to explain.

So, I looked but couldn't find any write-up for Monty. Any chance of a link, (or a really, really breif explanation of the difference?)

Also, that log makes my brain hurt, Doc.

Radar
2010-07-02, 11:25 AM
(...)
Affinity Field + Synchronity = all the time in the world packed into one round (at most - i'm fuzzy on the details).
So it takes only a few rounds to get infinity everything (Aleph_1 stats if you feel like it even).

Doc Roc
2010-07-02, 11:31 AM
So, I looked but couldn't find any write-up for Monty. Any chance of a link, (or a really, really breif explanation of the difference?)

Also, that log makes my brain hurt, Doc.

The gist is that it's possible to use the far realms as a mechanism for non-deterministic interference in the timestream. We build a "no-ship" of sorts, out of a timestop chain, creating NI clones while inside it. We then jump to the far-realm, where we are already natives through some bizarre abuses. Because we are natives, when we leave, we might not end up the time we came in. Each of our clones heads back to the material plane, still inside a timestop, and ends up at a different point in time. This allows us to perform a sort of... monte carlo attack on the timestream itself, placing infinite pun-puns everywhen. This is the basis for the Neo-terminators and also for Monty.

This was the windmill that T_G and I tilted at endlessly. This is why I don't talk seriously about TO.

Gametime
2010-07-02, 12:34 PM
Well, Epic Spellcasting is a massive part, but the game has been switching further and further to the casters every single time you gain a level. It's also been going faster, as if fighters grew linearly, while wizards grew quadratically. Well, even without Epic Spellcasting, wizards are growing at least exponentially compared to the fighters at Epic Levels.

Arguably, fighters don't even grow linearly; depending on your build, the feats you want, and the value of WBL for you, fighters can end up growing logarithmically. That's more likely to be a problem in core, though.

Friend Computer
2010-07-02, 05:35 PM
Do you have a link to any literature on that. I'd like to read up on it just because I'm a geek that way... :)

As an aside - I hope that my sometimes brash statements don't offend anyone here. I don't mean to be offputting, though I know I have a tendency to be so...

I actually really enjoy the theoretical discussions like this...

But going back to the point at hand, as I wrote in the previous message, one of the big arguments for Pun-Pun's superiority vs any other archetype is that he can start at L1.

Which is great and all, but every single design for him takes into account multiple infinite attrubutes, which one can then argue, if Pun-Pun is spending all that time making himself infinite, how is he...

1. Aware of any other progress in the multiverse.
2. Capable of stopping his infinite buff sequence to deal with anything not presented directly to him.

Just say in theory he starts his infinite Con buff sequence in the arbitrary year 500. Non-withstanding the early fails he'll have where he's knocked unconscious by the ability, it takes him 6 seconds (The two-part transfer) per +12 Buff once he gets to the point of using Giant Size tranfers. That means about +2 Con per Second over the long run. Lets just say he wants 1 Billion Con. That would take him nearly 16 Years to accomplish.

But then, lets say he can do the action swiftly and standardly x2 so that he can cut the time down to a sixth... That's still well over 2 years.

Now you can argue the point that he'd get time manipulation andput himself into an infinite time loop of buffing, but how would pun-pun even know to do that before he buffs his Int. What would he perceive as a threat to need to do that?

It does come down to the concept of determinism. As a Player using Optimization you're going to Meta-Game his pre-emptive actions to attempt to ensure that Pun-Pun will acheive a state of time stillness during his buffs (Well, now you are - being that you might have just realized to do infitie buffing requires infinite time).

When it comes down to it, the original Pun Pun is a brutal and broken concept - but when that designer first took the Pun-Pun build and said "I increase my Con to an Infinitely High Number" he just took him out of the world for all intents and purposes as Pun-Pun sits in a corner of the universe masterbuffing himself into oblivion.

Revisions to the Pun-Pun build now can easily come up with one that only spends about a minute working it's way to an infinite time/buff loop - which is an interesting concept. Would that effectively destroy the universe? Being that Pun-Pun is already there, would he have to keep moving 5' every time so as not to occupy the same space thus filling the universe with infinite mass? Would the infinite collection of energies in one location just suck everything dry? Would the Lady of Pain step in and say, "Umm, No..." ;)

This is absolutely wrong. The duration spent getting his stats to PP levels will simply be: Time taken to imagine a greature with arbitrarily high stats in all abilities, and the time taken to gain those abilities through his Manipulate form ability or whatever it is called.


(Aleph_1 stats if you feel like it even)
What's Aleph_1 ?

sofawall
2010-07-02, 05:44 PM
What's Aleph_1 ?

A particular level of infinity. I suggest Wikipedia for a better explanation than I can give.

Ixahinon
2010-07-02, 07:08 PM
{Scrubbed}

Radar
2010-07-03, 05:32 AM
(...)

What's Aleph_1 ?
In short, it's the ammount of real numbers (if you take continuum hypothesis, but it's unimportant) - there is significantly more of them then there is natural numbers.
Even shorter: regular infinity is not even close to this. :smallsmile: