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View Full Version : Uses of Mosquito Bite Skill trick?



SethFahad
2010-06-30, 03:50 AM
Is this skill trick usefull at all?

PId6
2010-06-30, 04:03 AM
Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Not really, but it can be funny.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 04:03 AM
Mechanically? Not much. Maybe only if the Dm doesn't metagame, and goes: Hmm, it should be nearly dead, but it doesn't know that, so I should not make it run away.

Or for fun. Bam! You're dead. You just don't know that. "Wait, why can't I move? He missed didn't he?"

Grumman
2010-06-30, 04:20 AM
If you're going to use this skill trick, it is mandatory to put points into Iaijutsu Focus.

Eurus
2010-06-30, 04:22 AM
With Iaijutsu focus and a handful of sneak attack dice, it could at least be entertaining. Or possibly useful for initiating combat under cover of Greater Invisibility; get an extra surprise round?

Zaq
2010-06-30, 04:28 AM
If you're going to use this skill trick, it is mandatory to put points into Iaijutsu Focus.

I see what you did there... but not until you sheathe your sword.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 04:32 AM
They know they were attacked. They just think you missed/do no damage.

Zaq
2010-06-30, 04:33 AM
They know they were attacked. They just think you missed/do no damage.

The question then becomes why this is supposed to be desirable.

DrGonzo
2010-06-30, 04:38 AM
Mechanically it isn't desirable at all. They will hit you back. (I know I would!)

You could have some fun roleplaying/storytelling with this though..

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 04:41 AM
The question then becomes why this is supposed to be desirable.

That's why I said it was not very useful. Only to prevent running away at low HP if that.

Good for lulz though.

Zaq
2010-06-30, 04:44 AM
That's why I said it was not very useful. Only to prevent running away at low HP if that.

Good for lulz though.

Once again, we know it's not desirable. What I'm trying to figure out is the intended use of it. Usually, you can at least get a vague idea of what WotC was thinking and intending (even if they horribly screwed it up... see Iron Heart Surge), but in this case, I really can't tell why we're supposed to be interested.

Rannil
2010-06-30, 04:51 AM
Once again, we know it's not desirable. What I'm trying to figure out is the intended use of it. Usually, you can at least get a vague idea of what WotC was thinking and intending (even if they horribly screwed it up... see Iron Heart Surge), but in this case, I really can't tell why we're supposed to be interested.

Aggro? Or whatyoumaycallit in d&d. The idea that NPC monsters attack the guy dealing the most damage. Now you can almost kill a monster and flee before he notices you.

Morph Bark
2010-06-30, 05:06 AM
If you're going to use this skill trick, it is mandatory to put points into Iaijutsu Focus.

This. Those combined, especially plus Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike or Skirmish make for an excellent assassin-style character. As long as you use a light weapon of course. :smallbiggrin:

Critical
2010-06-30, 05:07 AM
Well, since it can be used with unarmed strike, you can pretend to hit jokingly... :smallbiggrin:

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 05:13 AM
You could also prevent running.

Bam! 1 HP, but they still think they can last a while, so they don't run away.

Morph Bark
2010-06-30, 05:22 AM
Well, since it can be used with unarmed strike, you can pretend to hit jokingly... :smallbiggrin:

*gasp* So THAT is what the MitD did to Miko!

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 05:38 AM
You could also prevent running.

Bam! 1 HP, but they still think they can last a while, so they don't run away.

Pretty much.

This skill trick is only useful if the dm has the opposition react accordingly to their own wounds. Most, sadly, don't.

Rainbownaga
2010-06-30, 06:07 AM
Maybe it's for that action movie cliche where the bad guy laughs and says

"Hahaha you missed!"

And then slides apart in two roughly equal slices.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 06:10 AM
Maybe it's for that action movie cliche where the bad guy laughs and says

"Hahaha you missed!"

And then slides apart in two roughly equal slices.

It can probably also be used to do an attack without initiating combat,
You are undetected till the last moment, attack and the guy didn't notice. An extra surprise round.

SethFahad
2010-06-30, 06:10 AM
Well, I think it's USELESS. Not even interesting.

...

Utter Crap. :smallyuk:

PId6
2010-06-30, 06:12 AM
It can probably also be used to do an attack without initiating combat,
You are undetected till the last moment, attack and the guy didn't notice. An extra surprise round.
Problem is, they do notice the attack; they just think it missed.

J.Gellert
2010-06-30, 07:07 AM
Problem is, they do notice the attack; they just think it missed.

Not if you are hidden/invisible/behind their back. An extra surprise round is a good deal if they are not really paying attention for whatever reason.

Killer Angel
2010-06-30, 07:22 AM
Once again, we know it's not desirable. What I'm trying to figure out is the intended use of it. Usually, you can at least get a vague idea of what WotC was thinking and intending (even if they horribly screwed it up... see Iron Heart Surge), but in this case, I really can't tell why we're supposed to be interested.

Rannil got it right. Unintelligent monsters or enemies not particularly smart, try to kill the one that is damaging more them.
You hit with mosquito bite, while the fighter hits with his longsword. Yes, the monster notive that you hit him, but you didn't hurt, so he don't consider you the main target: you're in melee risking almost nothing.
Sadly, it works only 'til the target is flat footed (if I remember correctly) and if the DM apply this kind of reasoning, because, mechanically, you have nothing.

IdleMuse
2010-06-30, 08:35 AM
It synergises pretty well with the Assassin's Death Attack... they don't notice you 'missing' if they're dead. Spend three rounds in idle conversation with them and then poke them with a needle.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 10:17 AM
And they are still talking to you after dying!

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 10:33 AM
And they are still talking to you after dying!

"This trick doesn't allow the opponent to ignore any other effects of your attack, such as ability damage from poison on your blade or falling unconscious when reduced to fewer than zero hit points."

So no, no comical "Oh wow, I'm technically dead!" moments.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 10:38 AM
Damn, that's 1 less use.

Lapak
2010-06-30, 10:46 AM
Pretty much.

This skill trick is only useful if the dm has the opposition react accordingly to their own wounds. Most, sadly, don't.Agreed. If the opposition is always fighting to the death, it is pretty useless. But most intelligent opponents shouldn't be without a really compelling reason!

Telonius
2010-06-30, 10:50 AM
I think it's intended for assassination teams. Here's the scenario I'm envisioning:

You walk up to the target, who is known to you, and make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal your weapon. You make your attack with a poisoned blade. At the same time, your partner is in disguise and at a greater range. He makes a big show of shouting things like, "Death to the tyrant!" and shoots a very flashy arrow (actually an illusion) at him. The bodyguards rush to assist the target, some splitting off to go after the archer. "I saw the archer just before he shot, I tried to push the poor man out of the way," you say. Your partner makes his escape.

Anyone who saw the exchange would see exactly what you said: you lunged at him. Suspicion would fall upon the mysterious archer rather than you.

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 10:52 AM
And you sure pray that your colleague doesn't miss!

Or you Sleight of Hand an arrow into the dead man's gut.

Telonius
2010-06-30, 10:52 AM
And you sure pray that your colleague doesn't miss!

Or you Sleight of Hand an arrow into the dead man's gut.

Edited to fix that - the arrow ought to be an illusion just to be certain.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 11:01 AM
The thing is... why not just use a real arrow?

Siosilvar
2010-06-30, 11:06 AM
The thing is... why not just use a real arrow?

A real arrow could be considered a "possession" for scrying purposes. Makes your getaway cleaner if you can't be scryed upon.

Boci
2010-06-30, 11:46 AM
I think it's intended for assassination teams. Here's the scenario I'm envisioning:

You walk up to the target, who is known to you, and make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal your weapon. You make your attack with a poisoned blade. At the same time, your partner is in disguise and at a greater range. He makes a big show of shouting things like, "Death to the tyrant!" and shoots a very flashy arrow (actually an illusion) at him. The bodyguards rush to assist the target, some splitting off to go after the archer. "I saw the archer just before he shot, I tried to push the poor man out of the way," you say. Your partner makes his escape.

Anyone who saw the exchange would see exactly what you said: you lunged at him. Suspicion would fall upon the mysterious archer rather than you.

But wouldn't they see your attack and just think you missed?

Susano-wo
2010-06-30, 12:29 PM
Once again, we know it's not desirable. What I'm trying to figure out is the intended use of it. Usually, you can at least get a vague idea of what WotC was thinking and intending (even if they horribly screwed it up... see Iron Heart Surge), but in this case, I really can't tell why we're supposed to be interested.



Ot, but...what? What's wrong with Iron Heart Surge? remove rounds duration status effects and +2 to attacks...I fail to see a screw up..

Boci
2010-06-30, 12:34 PM
Ot, but...what? What's wrong with Iron Heart Surge? remove rounds duration status effects and +2 to attacks...I fail to see a screw up..

Good bye anti-magic field?

Telonius
2010-06-30, 12:39 PM
But wouldn't they see your attack and just think you missed?

Only if their Spot beats the sleight of hand check. Otherwise they saw me try to attack him unarmed in some way. And if the target happens to survive the attack? He also has to Spot the dagger, or he might well think that I was trying to get him out of the way. The wound would be assumed to be the work of the archer. And with all that diversion going on, there have got to be some serious circumstance bonuses to the Sleight of Hand check.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 12:39 PM
Ot, but...what? What's wrong with Iron Heart Surge? remove rounds duration status effects and +2 to attacks...I fail to see a screw up..

The wording lets you remove any effect, even those that don't target specifically you like a fire wall or antimagic field

Siosilvar
2010-06-30, 12:43 PM
Ot, but...what? What's wrong with Iron Heart Surge? remove rounds duration status effects and +2 to attacks...I fail to see a screw up..

With a bit of ruleslawyering, you can remove ANY effect with a duration (as they all have durations of 1 or more rounds). This includes the sun (ooh, a few billion years? Let me convert that to rounds...), gravity (one sec, lemme calculate the expected life of the universe in rounds...), or even things simpler like a call lightning spell (with a duration normally measured in minutes).

Obviously, these are not intended uses, and you're intended to remove things like slow, paralysis, and other such effects.

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 01:24 PM
The BBEG is making me angry. He's affecting me. IRON HEART SUURGE! (He has a life expectancy right?)

Il_Vec
2010-06-30, 01:27 PM
I think derailing threads into Iron Heart Surge is becoming as common as Monk jokes.

quiet1mi
2010-06-30, 01:29 PM
I have used it in the past with poison... It is kinda handy to poison someone without them realizing it...

Alternatively, I. focus, sudden strike, sneak attack to create that classic scene where the swordsman does one slice, the bad guy mocks him for missing, then a huge gash appears upon his stomach and he falls over...

Ingus
2010-06-30, 01:51 PM
I think derailing threads into Iron Heart Surge is becoming as common as Monk jokes.

Monks? They suck! :p

Seriously, I see not outstanding, but good uses of it. If your DM doesn't metagame too much, you can attack a cleric and make him think you missed. Attacking a cleric is often a frustrating activity, as you can see here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html

Tokiko Mima
2010-06-30, 02:15 PM
Could be useful with Disarm checks? You'd have to get the DM to agree that one can't oppose an attack they believe missed them. Maybe Sundering too, tricking them into using a weapon you broke that round.

nedz
2010-06-30, 03:19 PM
It would be quite amusing with trip I guess.

"Oh, why did I just fall over?"

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 03:47 PM
So... wait, it does or doesn't allow things that work against flat-footed peeps to ride on it?

drengnikrafe
2010-06-30, 03:51 PM
Mosquito's Bite [Manitpulation]
This trick doesn’t allow the opponent to ignore any of the other effects of your attack, such as ability damage from poison on your blade or falling unconscious when reduced to fewer than 0 hit points.
Doesn't work with poison or unconsciousness, and it sounds like it doesn't work with tripping, disarming, or sundering.

Boci
2010-06-30, 03:53 PM
Only if their Spot beats the sleight of hand check. Otherwise they saw me try to attack him unarmed in some way. And if the target happens to survive the attack? He also has to Spot the dagger, or he might well think that I was trying to get him out of the way. The wound would be assumed to be the work of the archer. And with all that diversion going on, there have got to be some serious circumstance bonuses to the Sleight of Hand check.

You were still standing next to the king when he died. In a world of magic, illusions and shapechangers I'm guessing at the very least any organized guard would ask you to stay for further questioning.

clarinetman
2010-06-30, 04:04 PM
I think it can be used with a character with sneak attack, two-weapon fighting, and dual hit. (Whichever one let's you use your off-hand attack in a standard action) You use improved feint as a move action and then get to SA twice cause the guy didn't notice your first hit. Or you just sneak up to someone, hit them once without them feeling it, then a second attack with a high enough BAB. I consider this very useful in situations where flanking isn't much of an option.

Teron
2010-06-30, 04:04 PM
With a bit of ruleslawyering, you can remove ANY effect with a duration (as they all have durations of 1 or more rounds). This includes the sun (ooh, a few billion years? Let me convert that to rounds...), gravity (one sec, lemme calculate the expected life of the universe in rounds...), or even things simpler like a call lightning spell (with a duration normally measured in minutes).

Obviously, these are not intended uses, and you're intended to remove things like slow, paralysis, and other such effects.
Except that since you need to move to use a maneuver, it doesn't work against paralysis. Most of the rewrites I've seen include a special clause to let you use it when you can't move or control your actions, but by RAW it does nothing of the sort.

FMArthur
2010-06-30, 04:33 PM
I think it can be used with a character with sneak attack, two-weapon fighting, and dual hit. (Whichever one let's you use your off-hand attack in a standard action) You use improved feint as a move action and then get to SA twice cause the guy didn't notice your first hit. Or you just sneak up to someone, hit them once without them feeling it, then a second attack with a high enough BAB. I consider this very useful in situations where flanking isn't much of an option.

NO, you are WRONG; this has been repeated several times now. They know that you attacked them and notice it immediately. There isn't anything especially sneaky you can do with this skill trick, especially right after you've used it.

Morph Bark
2010-06-30, 07:06 PM
Doesn't work with poison or unconsciousness, and it sounds like it doesn't work with tripping, disarming, or sundering.

Tripping, disarming, etcetera no. But if the poison had no initial effect, hey, bonus points.

Critical
2010-06-30, 07:15 PM
Actually, coming to think of it, what would happen with a Fleshgrinding weapon and this skill trick? "Haha, missed... OH SHI-" :smallbiggrin:

2xMachina
2010-06-30, 10:52 PM
I think it can be used with a character with sneak attack, two-weapon fighting, and dual hit. (Whichever one let's you use your off-hand attack in a standard action) You use improved feint as a move action and then get to SA twice cause the guy didn't notice your first hit. Or you just sneak up to someone, hit them once without them feeling it, then a second attack with a high enough BAB. I consider this very useful in situations where flanking isn't much of an option.

As far as I know, if you attack them twice while flat footed, you get Sneak attack on both hits, even when they DO notice it.

AvatarZero
2010-07-01, 08:29 AM
Could you rewrite the trick to make it more useful? It has a severe prerequisite (Sleight of Hand, 12 ranks:lv9 minimum) so it wouldn't be unreasonable to make it one of the more powerful tricks, on the same level as Swift Concentration, say (Conc 12).

What if it allows you to conceal that you attacked at all, but it provokes an attack of opportunity? You could use it to attack someone without giving yourself away, but you couldn't use it against a hostile enemy that is aware of you. In effect, you look like you just bumped into the other guy (which is what provokes the AoO) or did something else equally innocent, but while doing that you stabbed them. There was a scene like that in Hannibal, and in one of those BBC autopsy dramas (slightly drunk guy gets bumped into from behind in a crowded street, dies a few moments later from the skewer in his kidney).

It's probably still not as powerful as Conceal Spellcasting (Conc1,Sleight5,Spellcraft1), but that's more to do with spells being more powerful than knives most of the time.

SethFahad
2010-07-01, 11:42 PM
It has a severe prerequisite (Sleight of Hand, 12 ranks:lv9 minimum)

Exactly! Isn't it outrageous??? Just think what it requests, and then evaluate what you get... Z-E-R-O! Plus you loose 2 skill points for nothing.

Heck, if its only use is for "cinematic" purposes, just "say it happened" with this particular way!

Grumman
2010-07-01, 11:58 PM
What if it allows you to conceal that you attacked at all, but it provokes an attack of opportunity? You could use it to attack someone without giving yourself away, but you couldn't use it against a hostile enemy that is aware of you. In effect, you look like you just bumped into the other guy (which is what provokes the AoO) or did something else equally innocent, but while doing that you stabbed them. There was a scene like that in Hannibal, and in one of those BBC autopsy dramas (slightly drunk guy gets bumped into from behind in a crowded street, dies a few moments later from the skewer in his kidney).
Sounds like a good solution to me.

GolemsVoice
2010-07-02, 12:16 AM
I always thought that they wanted it to be a skill trick where you walk up to a guy, stumble ino him, apaologize, and moments later he gets a "heart attack", while you casually walk away.

Seems like they started with that idea but did't see it through, for some reason.

Hague
2010-07-02, 12:17 AM
This attack will prevent targets from using immediate action spells or abilities in response to your attacks. For instance, certain spells allow you to hit an enemy whom hits you in combat as an immediate action. Likewise, certain abilities that only function when hit wouldn't fire, like rage or that one monstrous feat that triggers on HP damage, etc.

This also means that if have greater invisibility, the enemy wouldn't know which tile you attacked from if were undetected, they wouldn't even know they got hit. Also, poison wouldn't tip the enemy off to where you were explicitly, they'd only know they were under attack and would still be flat-footed to your attack until they spotted you. There's a big difference between suddenly feeling numb and getting stabbed in the gut and then suddenly feeling numb.

Also note that the distinction is 'light weapon' This means that a weapon like a blowgun dart, dart, or shuriken, won't be detected at first when thrown from cover. This also means that you can deliver touch spells (light weapons) by simply brushing against an opponent, giving you another standard action to flee.

Coidzor
2010-07-02, 01:45 AM
This attack will prevent targets from using immediate action spells or abilities in response to your attacks. For instance, certain spells allow you to hit an enemy whom hits you in combat as an immediate action. Likewise, certain abilities that only function when hit wouldn't fire, like rage or that one monstrous feat that triggers on HP damage, etc.

This also means that if have greater invisibility, the enemy wouldn't know which tile you attacked from if were undetected, they wouldn't even know they got hit. Also, poison wouldn't tip the enemy off to where you were explicitly, they'd only know they were under attack and would still be flat-footed to your attack until they spotted you. There's a big difference between suddenly feeling numb and getting stabbed in the gut and then suddenly feeling numb.

Also note that the distinction is 'light weapon' This means that a weapon like a blowgun dart, dart, or shuriken, won't be detected at first when thrown from cover. This also means that you can deliver touch spells (light weapons) by simply brushing against an opponent, giving you another standard action to flee.

Ahh, the situational use comes out finally.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-02, 05:27 AM
This attack will prevent targets from using immediate action spells or abilities in response to your attacks. For instance, certain spells allow you to hit an enemy whom hits you in combat as an immediate action. Likewise, certain abilities that only function when hit wouldn't fire, like rage or that one monstrous feat that triggers on HP damage, etc.

Except...


Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time - even it it's not your turn. Casting Feather Fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action unti after your next turn, if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So they are already denied the ability to use immediate actions anyway, because Mosquito's Bite only works on flatfooted opponents.


This also means that if have greater invisibility, the enemy wouldn't know which tile you attacked from if were undetected, they wouldn't even know they got hit. Also, poison wouldn't tip the enemy off to where you were explicitly, they'd only know they were under attack and would still be flat-footed to your attack until they spotted you. There's a big difference between suddenly feeling numb and getting stabbed in the gut and then suddenly feeling numb.

True, but they are still aware they are attacked, they just believe that someone has missed even though they hit. So Mosquito's Bite didn't add much of anything to the stealth attack, since all of this trouble locating you is true of someone attacking invisibly without the skill trick.


Also note that the distinction is 'light weapon' This means that a weapon like a blowgun dart, dart, or shuriken, won't be detected at first when thrown from cover. This also means that you can deliver touch spells (light weapons) by simply brushing against an opponent, giving you another standard action to flee.

The problem is, the text is pretty explicit in this regard. "The opponent reacts as if you had attacked and missed." So you aren't going unnoticed at all, you just look clumsier than you actually are, for 1 round.

Acanous
2010-07-02, 05:44 AM
The "Greater Invis" use still applies. They wouldn't feel the attack, so wouldn't know where you were attacking from. Possibly wouldn't know you attacked at all. I mean, you LOOK like you attacked and missed, but they diddn't SEE you attack and miss. They just took damage that they don't notice.

Supremely situational. Assassins with Improved Invisibility might have some use for it.

Aside from that? Well, it's great at parties...

Seriously. If you have Profession: Clown (or similar) and "Buffoonery" is part of your act? like you're SUPPOSED to look like you're attacking and missing.. but you actually poison someone with Black Lotus Extract. A minute after, they die of con loss.

Could be done. Definately nowhere near optimum.

Seracain
2010-07-02, 05:56 AM
Launch a verbal attack on someone, they'll think you missed your mark in insulting them, then after you've stormed off, they suddenly break into tears.

Tokiko Mima
2010-07-02, 03:14 PM
The "Greater Invis" use still applies. They wouldn't feel the attack, so wouldn't know where you were attacking from. Possibly wouldn't know you attacked at all. I mean, you LOOK like you attacked and missed, but they diddn't SEE you attack and miss. They just took damage that they don't notice.

Supremely situational. Assassins with Improved Invisibility might have some use for it.

Aside from that? Well, it's great at parties...

Seriously. If you have Profession: Clown (or similar) and "Buffoonery" is part of your act? like you're SUPPOSED to look like you're attacking and missing.. but you actually poison someone with Black Lotus Extract. A minute after, they die of con loss.

Could be done. Definately nowhere near optimum.

They don't notice it 'until the start of your next turn.' So you only get a single round before they notice the dagger wound. And they would notice 'the ability damage from the poison on your blade and other effects' immediately. So they are not prevented from immediately administering an antidote (neutralize poison, heal, etc.), because the poison part they noticed.

The only use I can imagine for this skill trick would be working in concert with an illusionist to frame someone else as an assassin/attacker of a VIP. You wait till the person you are trying to frame (i.e. patsy) comes within striking range of the VIP, then the illusionist quickens an illusion of the real assassin standing a safe distance away, then casts a greater invis spell on the assassin.

On the assassin's turn, the assassin moves in and strikes with mosquito's bite, leaving a nasty wound that the victim won't notice until the assassin's next turn. The patsy, unaffected by the skill trick, does see a massive dagger wound appear on the VIP and freaks out, which is fine, that's part of the plan.

Next round, the illusionist goes first and drops another illusion of the patsy making the attack with the dagger. One the assassin's turn, the VIP notices the dagger wound, but can't do anything until the assassin moves back into position, hiding in the illusion of himself until the illusionist can drop both spells.

So you are left with a scenario where the only one with any clue as to what went on is the patsy, and he has just been framed, so people are unlikely to believe him. The assassin was nearby, but did not move (that anyone could see) and thus has an alibi.

It would not make sense to do this if you wanted the VIP dead, you need him to be alive and looking like he's not noticing the dagger wound. It doesn't make sense to use this trick if you don't have someone handy to blame the attack on, as the assassin would be suspected immediately if there was not another good suspect handy. It's SUPER situational, and in 99.999% of cases, there are better and easier ways to accomplish what Mosquito's Bite can do.