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master zzan
2010-06-30, 08:44 AM
i made this prestige class for one of my recurring high level enemies that the party i game for had to deal with. it's basically my best effort to fit in the campaign a "Shang Tsung" npc.
I'm sorry for any misspelling and the like in this work, English is not my native language.

The Soul Thief.

Requirements :
A Necromancer or spell focus (necromancy),ability to cast the arcane spell vampiric touch.
Special – must have killed (reduced to -10 h.p. or under) a live creature with over 20 h.p. with the vampiric touch spell.
Alignment: any non-good .(DM can change this to evil only)

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3447/soulthieftable.jpg

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Bluff, concentration, craft,diplomacy, disguise,intimidate, knowledge (arcane & religion), profession, spellcraft.


1st level :
Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a Soul Thief, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

-Soul Chamber: the Soul Thief gain the ability to storage stolen souls inside part of his own soul. Only the Soul Thief and his stolen souls can perceive this place, and it manifest differently within each Soul Thief. Some see it as a prison with many cells each holding a soul , While others see a vest sea with tiny islands hosting the captured souls on them. The except shape and theme of the chamber is up to the Soul Thief's mind. Yet the same rules apply to them all.
the Soul Thief can hold no more souls then twice his character level in HD .
* edit* and no soul with hd more then his level -2 (a 5\5 wizard \st can have souls of up to 8 hd per soul)* end edit*
.1/2 HD count as one whole while souls of creatures with 1 hit point count as 1/4 of a HD. The Soul Thief can freely move through the chamber and talk with the trapped souls, this takes a full round action and basically represent a round spent in the chosen chamber with the souls he seek ,this method is used mainly to *edit* compel or making deals with them to gain their secrets or help.the Soul Thief can cast spells while at the chamber and since it is molded by his thought he can even torment the souls inside.the souls can feel pain and even get hurt in the chamber,but as will be explained they can not be used outside the chamber unless they have a positive hp (they can have all the negative hp the st is willing to inflict on them.but he will have to heal them after if he wants to use their bodies).a dm might want to look up the rules for tormenting victims in the book of vile deeds,or play it out as he seem fit .*end edit*.
While his mind visit's the chamber the Soul Thief is oblivious to the real world, but he can still feel a violent touch (such as an attack or a shake) while he is in the chamber the Soul Thief suffer a -20 to his spot and listen checks.
Although inside the chamber the souls see themselves as isolated each soul knows of the others and can freely talk with them.*edit*this is done mentally.no common language is needed.remember that talking to a fly the Soul Thief keep for escape route can be less then effective.*end edit*

Souls that are not housed in the chamber are ether freed to move on, used on the body of the Soul Thief or imbued in a body or gem. Except for the freed souls the rest count for the total of souls the chamber may hold and are in the control of the Soul Thief. Freeing a soul is a free action.
The stress of containing the chamber and it's hosted souls is immense and take a great toll from the Soul Thief's mind and soul .As long as the chamber has even one soul trapped in it the soul thief can summon no creature by spell, have no familiar(previous familiars are freed with no xp loss) and have no animal companion or a link that resemble it (such as the Beast Heart prestige class ability). Dominated creatures count against the total the chamber can hold, but Charmed creatures do not.(the Soul Thief can be as charming as he like)

-Soul Stealing: the Soul Thief can steal a soul of a live victim. For that he need to use vampire's touch to sly it or cast it on the body of a previously live creature within 1 round per class level after lowering it below 0 h.p .
A soul that is just stolen have -10 h.p. and must be healed before usage. Any time the Soul Thief is magically healed in any form he decade which soul(he's or a stolen one) is healed.
Souls in bodies heal normally.

Captured souls can be stored in bodies or in a gem worth 10 gp per h.d (at 5th level and higher)or in the Soul Chamber. They must still be bound by the power of the Soul Chamber and any HD over the total are released. Souls in gems are freed if not trapped there by spells or by the Soul Chamber (if sold the new owner better have a way of keeping them in the gem.)

-stolen knowledge:*edit* the Soul Thief gain a competence bonus of +1 per class level when he uses one of the following skills on a soul in a chamber: bluff.diplomacy and intimidate (including the intimidate check while torturing a prisoner).on the other hand a soul gain a competence bonus of +1 to opposing skills as sense motive and diplomacy,as well as will saves vs the intimidate for every check beyond the first in a week duration.(the bonus is not given for will vs charm effect and other spells the Soul Thief might use).*end edit*

2nd :
-Wear Soul: As a standard action this has the same effect as the 4th level spell polymorph self with the following changes : can only take the form of a captive soul (with standard gear\wardrobe as per the spell), No duration. While wearing the soul the Soul Thief uses the base attributes of the soul , it's skills and hit points. his HP are not used until he changes back . And he project the soul nature so a good soul will hide an evil Soul Thief against detect evil and the like(up to the time it was used. the trace of evil from before the change might be detected).and true sight will show only the stolen soul. if the hit points of the soul are lowered to 0 or lower it is freed, the change is over and any damage below 0 is deducted from the Souls Thief's sum.
for example a Soul Thief uses the soul of a small spider(1 hit point) to change into one and spy on his enemy .while in that shape a passing boy stamps on him dealing 3 points of damage. the soul of the spider is freed, the soul thief resumes his normal body and receive 2 damage to his hit points total which are now used.(probably foiling his spying chances while doing so).
While in the soul's shape the Soul Thief can still use his special abilities (including his spell casting ability and the ability to wear a different soul).

Wearing a soul *edit* and imbuing a body with a soul ( later) are supernatural ability that manipulates the souls of the thief and his trapped guests thus it can not be dispelled or disrupted but an anti-magic area effect neutralize it.in an anti-magic zone the following happen : souls in gems are free from the chamber's power and are free if not imprisoned by other means. souls imbued or worn are free from the domination of the Soul Thief for as long as they remain in the zone,and are for all aspects considered alive again.once both the Soul Thief and the body wearing souls are out of the zone control is regained.
protection from evil and other spells and effects that prevent possession or free a possessed soul work as follows.as long as the Soul Thief hasn't reached the 8th class level ability (total control).they will prevent the domination effect or free the soul.depend on spell\power. a protection from evil ,for example ,will let the soul gain control for the duration of the spell.(probably giving it a chance of escape by killing itself).while power such as the ring of reversion (ravenloft,von halsing arsenal.page 46) that free the possessed will release the soul to move on.
*end edit*

5th :
-Morph : as wear soul but with the shape change spell benefit .The change takes a move action.

-Imbued Soul:
The Soul Thief can host a soul in a dead body as a full round action. The body must be of a previous living creature of the same size as the original soul's form. After storing the soul the body changes to a copy of said form as by a polymorph spell. The body resembled the older body of the soul from before it's death and it is considered a live creature ,not an undead, even if the body that is housing the soul was a old corpse before the change. the soul must be at 1 positive hit point or more when imbued or it is freed. it has all states, skills and powers as the original creature and it is dominated by the soul thief. Any effect that remove or free a dominated person can free the soul. (This includes the extra save when forced to do things it objects). The change last until the new body is dealt enough damage to drop it to 0 hit points, which release the soul. Or until the soul thief decide to call the soul back into the chamber as a full round action.
If the Soul Thief release the soul from the chamber's hold while it is hosting a body it is free of the Soul Thief's hold and is basically alive again. The soul's reaction after such an event is up to the DM.
The soul can also be called into a gem that is worth no less then 10 gp per soul's HD. This is a way to prison the soul in a way that deny it from talking to other souls. As well as providing the Soul Thief with a way to use the soul as payment or powering soul- powered devices. If used as a coin the new owner need a way to keep the soul trapped or it is freed when the soul-thief decide to let the chamber release it's hold on the soul . Until he does, the soul is counted against the total of the chamber hosting capacity. Souls in gems receive their normal saving against imprisonment spells and abilities.(not a save against the imbuing of the soul in the gem, Just against the imprisoning of it via spells and the like)
The soul thief can talk with the trapped soul by holding the gem and using his ability to perceive the chamber on the gem.

8th:
Total Control :
The Soul Thief has all the powers and skills the stolen soul had while wearing it.(including spell casting abilities, see note at end of file).
Souls in bodies can not be freed by anything less then a wish or freedom spell.
(As opposed to releasing a dominated soul). The other methods still apply. ( Death, re-hosting and freedom from the chamber).
Imbuing and calling back a soul in a body or gem is a standard action now.

10th:
Converter : the Soul Thief can convert HP from one soul to an other(like to his soul)as a standard action.he can also convert age but only from a soul to himself.
(a 40 year old human Soul Thief can be 20 years old if he ages a soul he has by 20 years).
Morphing is a free action now.

Note:

A soul's spells and other powers that charge after 8 hours of rest and studying or meditating take the same process to regain. the soul have all the spells it could cast when it died and can access them while being worn or while the soul imbued a body. (a 8th level Soul Thief can use the spells the soul have while wearing it , And a soul hosted in a body can cast the spells while being dominated)
Damage to a soul while imbued or wearied remain until healed .if the soul take enough damage to be at 0 h.p. or less when not in the Soul Chamber it is freed. A new soul that is just caught is at -10 h.p. and must be healed before usage.

Unless informed of their priests death even deities can be tricked to give the stolen cleric soul it's daily spells. (much like a dominated cleric can still receive and cast his divine spells). however should such divine being become aware of the theft it might chose to deny the spells from the thief and he's toy.(it might chose not to deny, some deities are like that).

jiriku
2010-06-30, 09:20 AM
What purpose do you have in mind for this class? If you intend it purely as a DM special, it's alright, but if it's for player use, it will need some significant whacks from the nerf bat. You essentially have the ability to become, in all significant aspects, any creature you can kill. Since groups of players can kill monsters that are significantly more powerful than individual PCs, this would open the door to all sorts of party imbalances.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 09:48 AM
basically this is an npc class.but im a fair dm i won't shoot what i can't duck.

so first if you noticed there is the hd limit.not so un-similar to the limit of undead minions. i basically house rolled that no character can have followers \minions etc with more then X2 hd then master's. this is the same for pc and npc.
2nd .if u ever had a player doing the master of death necro-thing you'll notice the zombies\undead they call from their defeated enemies. i accept that as part of the loot.same goes here. if u can kill it you can have it.( not unlike subduing a dragon in old school days).
3rd . im a DM that like to challenge my players. for that they need every angle they can have. u did notice the not so blunt point a made about souls having their secret meeting behind the soul thief's back. add that to the fact that every time that a not total controlling thief imbued a soul in a body,he may control lit.but the knowledge it gains is it's alone (gained after death).and you start seeing the barb in the rose ... i run a paranoid game campaign, i had players scream with fear ,and at 1 point i even had some1 laughing and crying at the same time.was weird that.all in all.trust me when i tell u this is not as Rossy as it seems.

this also answer what propose is for this class. nothing scare more then the familiar becoming strange.

after one campaign in the "Ravenloft" setting my players asked to turn back to the normal setting.it was too much for them ;)

demidracolich
2010-06-30, 10:56 AM
Also kind of off topic but I'm pretty sure animated avatars aren't allowed here.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 11:24 AM
OK, so you want it balanced as if it's a class available to PCs.

First of all, since I'm about to rip your class to shreds, let me say that your concept is damn cool, and, frankly, Is more interesting and fun than anything I've ever written. Kudos to you. This is creative, unusual, and chock-full of interesting roleplaying potential.

Now for the shredding. Let's hit the major points of abusability.

First of all, this is a class that gets full arcane casting and 4 skill points per level with essentially zero entry requirements, and likely entry is at level 6. It is quite good merely on that basis alone. You could provide only one or two modest class features and it would be a power-neutral choice for most necromancer wizards.

Stolen knowledge: This is the core power at level 1, and it's extremely potent for an ECL 6 ability. From a role-playing perspective, the ability to steal all knowledge means you can learn secret passwords, locations of enemy lairs, activities of rival organizations, and much more. Equivalent powers like detect thoughts or speak with dead provide only limited information and offer a save. It might be wise to place some kind of choke on what can be learned and how easily. Perhaps the ST should need to interrogate the soul.

Moreover, you copy the skill bonuses of the dead souls. All of them. At once. Now, skills aren't the most powerful part of the game, but you could theoretically kill 12 level 1 experts and acquire almost every Int- Wis- and Cha-based skill in the game at a bonus of +10 or so. Perhaps you should limit the ST to only being able to copy the skills of one soul at a time.

Since Speak Language is a skill, and languages could be considered knowledge, this power also could be construed to let you speak the languages known by any soul you imprison. I'd suggest you explicitly state whether this is or is not an option.

Since you're copying bonuses, not ranks, you can kill animals and get, for example, Listen +14, Spot +16 (hawk and owl, total 2 HD). If might be wiser to copy skill ranks, rather than total modifiers. However, be warned, that means a lot more math, which can increase your preparation time as a DM or slow down gameplay if used by a player.

Wear Soul: The 2nd level ability. You need to define what the "base attributes" of the soul are.

Essentially, this is an all-day version of one of the most broken spells in the game. However, you've greatly improved on polymorph by making the effect impossible to detect, impossible to disrupt, unable to interfere with your own spellcasting, and oh, it effectively grants bonus hp equal to the hp total of the target. The possibility for abuse is boundless. Coupled with your natural Bluff and Disguise skills and Stolen Knowledge, you can flawlessly and permanently impersonate the political leaders and powerful generals, bodyguards and security personnel, the BBEG's right-hand henchman, or the BBEG's pet dog. For a combat application, you can essentially permanently convert yourself into any big, mean monster you can kill with vampiric touch, an effect similar to polymorph any object, a much higher level spell. It's....really really strong. This would be a strong power even if it was the capstone ability gained at 10th level.

I'd recommend you bring it down from the stratosphere by making it work more like polymorph, including having a limited duration, a means for opponents to detect your shenanigans, and a means by which you could be forced back into your normal form by something other than hit point damage.

Morph: OK, so this is basically an improved version of a 9th level spell, but obtainable at 9th level earliest, instead of 17th level. And it's usable at will. And it's permanent. And it can't be detected or dispelled. Frankly, I'm not sure you could balance it without going into epic play. I'd recommend you just scrap it.

Imbued Soul: Actually not that bad. You can now traffic in souls, but because that involves DM interaction, it's fairly easy to manage. You can create a disposable dominated pet, but since you could already become the creature anyway, you're really only gaining a helper, not getting access to any new abilities. I'd recommend you specify that the ST loses access to the skills and form of a soul while it's imbued.

As a side effect you can provide free resurrection with no level loss to any ally who has a terminal condition (just kill him, imbue him, and let him go), but that's more of an oddity, really, since the ST will probably have to let go of existing souls to make room for an ally.

Total Control: Broken, broken, broken. As a 13th-level character, you can acquire the class abilities of any other character you can kill, up to 26 HD? Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar)much? Any effect that allows you to inherit the spellcasting a character who's higher level than you is broken, and that's only the beginning of what this feature offers. Even at epic this would be difficult to manage.

Converter: You live forever, plus if you have a high-hp soul in containment, you can use its hp to recharge your own. Nice, but well within range for a capstone ability.

tl;dr Your problem powers are stolen knowledge, wear soul, morph, and total control. Morph and total control can't be fixed; just toss them. Stolen knowledge and wear soul can work with some limitations.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 02:52 PM
wow ... thx a lot . i really missed some of the stuff u mentioned.
i had all this written in my language and tried to speed write it in English,with out it takes seven pages. although some of the stuff i didn't think about. to be precise:

chamber: OK i forgot to write a bit about all the rules i apply with minions and the like. as i mentioned there is a base mechanic rule in my game play.no1 can have minions over 2X his hd in minions HD. what i forgot to mention is that like henchman(which are part of this rule) not one minion can posses more hd then the master's HD-2. so a 10 hd master top minion can only be of 8th hd and lower. so no a 13 hd master can't kill a 26 hd solar and keep it.
..this is about keeping it. not taking them.if a mage will make a zombie dragon it will be a zombie dragon,just not under his control.and a ST (thx for the short name.took me a while to understand u refer to soul thief by st) that will try to catch something bigger then he should will let the soul in his chamber,but won't be able to keep it from leaving.(maybe after talking to all the other cell-mates).

the main deal with this character is that while other people have their army ready to help them nearby .the st have them all in one body. so facing one in his room is going to be like going through all the dungeon guards before the main boss.

stolen knowledge: really messed with that one.it started as a good concept.but i can see all the manchkin- cheese dripping from it.i'll change that, i think making it a bit more like the charm person diplomacy to make them work for you.as the st will have to bargain with the souls for their knowledge.gaining a +1 for every st level but having the souls get a bonus for every time they help within a period of time(say any soul that grant answers get +1 for every time after the first in a week duration).actually i might even let the st try and cast spells in the chamber on the souls trying to charm them or detect their lies.don't worry they get saves.and it will force the st to keep spells for things other then battle.

spell casting: at first glance i can see why you think he should get less spell levels per level.but consider this.compare him to a same level necromancer (specialist wizard,not any prestige class)with his undead horde.while that necromancer will have minions of the same level and HD as the trapped souls. if u nerf the st spell level he will be way under powered .

wear soul: yes it is over powered form of polymorph.as i stated before unlike any other character that can have minions at it's total control .the st can have only the ones he catch.no undead,no summoned demons,no henchman ,no companions other then the stolen souls.so yes it's their abilities and life.and even powers and spells later on that one have to face when fighting him.they just happen to occupy the same body.

the idea that what you face is the person who's soul was taken is the reason for the non-detect-work-in-anti-magic thingy...on second thought most undead will not work in an anti magic zone so i guess we can drop that.but when detecting the soul.it IS the person you see.try detecting a dominated person to see if he's false and all you get is 'that is the real thing'.while true sight will show you if a dragon is wearing the shape of an angel.an angel being possessed by a dragon will still show as an angel.
as to finding out it's a fake.well he gets his bluff and disguise skills(and a +10 for the shape thing).since we mostly nurfed the knowledge it's basically hunt that doppelganger quest without the magic aid...sense motive should work.

morph: first, at that stage the change is a standard action not a free one.second unlike shape change the shapes are limited to what's in stock.and any freed by death or other means are not an option any more. and third as stated before,this is actually the minion that you face down before you can get to it's master.

imbued soul: the thing with not having the skills when imbued i think we cleared by not letting the st access without a conflict.which is now denied since the soul is not in the chamber.
the resurrection is less then a biggy if you look at it this way. since the st won't be able to help any one of a 2 levels below him and higher and that person will have to trust the st not to control him(not realy the st problem;) and the fact that the soul will have -10 hp actually just says the st can save some one from dying a round after his death for every class level.and still need the healing to bring him back.think of it as some kind of late stabilizing,no more.before you had until -10 to save your dying friend now you get -10 + class level.

total control: not so broken now i believe.think of it this way.the st might have an army at his command.but not grater then what others might have at the same level.plus unless he has the bodies to host them(and is not afraid to loose something while doing so) he can have only one helping him at a time.and we all know that it's better facing the monsters one after the other then having a 'zerg rash'.

converter: yes if you get this far you can try and live forever.i can name at least 5-10 other prestige class that the capstone achievement is eternal life (arcane lich comes to mind for an example).the difference is that the st and the souls actually age.and think what will happen when a soul that he has been counting on is too old to be useful.( i messed it up.hp can be transferred between souls aging is only from souls to the st.not between them.so getting say a gargoyle will help the st but his souls will age every time they host a body).
...hmm seem i missed that part of you not really complaining about this ability.oh well, i got to explain it better this way.

ill get to editing what i said in a sec.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 03:35 PM
demi. i didn't see anything in the avatar section about animations( it stat u can use gifs) never the less ill change it.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 03:54 PM
OK, if you're limited to controlling souls of your HD-2, that greatly reduces the potential for abuse. If you're also adding an "only one at a time" mechanic for using borrowed abilities, that helps too. With those two changes, the classes are balanced much more closely.

The real concern here is options. Options are power. A wizard 5/soul-thief 8 can carry around an 11th level cleric and an 11th level psion inside his head. Switching is a move action, so if he's not concerned about moving much, he can freely use whichever powers he wants in a given round. Or even two in one round (quickened wizard spell + move action to morph + standard action cleric spell or psion power).

And what did the wizard give up to acquire this?

His familiar, which he probably traded for an alternate class feature, anticipating that he'd be taking soulthief.
Any zombies he might have created. Hit die for hit die, captive souls with spells and/or class features are better than zombies.
The ability to spend a feat on Leadership and acquire a cohort.


Alternately he could have:

A nymph, for blinding beauty, stunning glance, a swim speed, and casting as a 7th-level druid (6 HD).
A pixie, for flight, greater invisibility, and irresistable dance (1 HD).
A phase spider, for at-will ethereal jaunt, poison, and a climb speed (5 HD).
A troll, for the ability to regenerate hp, which he can then transfer to other souls in his soul farm for unlimited healing (6 HD).
Any sort of animal, to effectively mimic a druid's wild shape (variable HD).
All of the above.


And remember, all of this is on top of full wizard casting and better-than-wizard skill points.

Let me ask a different question: if this prestige class was available to players, what advantage would you get to playing a straight wizard, as compared to dropping one feat on Spell Focus: Necromancy and taking soulthief?

master zzan
2010-06-30, 04:14 PM
ok. point to point.
first. and not really a matter here. i do not allow psions in the campaign (as i told my players.if your allowed one im aloud a thousand) they are unbalanced.not even going to open a debate about them at all.

second a wizard of same level can easily dominate (much more easy then killing ) any of said above and you will have to face them all together. so the point of being a wizard instead? ... don't go hunting them ,go dominating them and then as mentioned before you can use them all together(zerg rush with the 11th level wizard and the nymph and the rest.with out a limit to his level or theirs.and by the way since i don't normally block domination spells ,it's a class future, he'll get all his undead horde on the back row for back up.)

instead the st can summon the souls of living victims he had to kill(or be there close to death) if he has the right body size(yep i killed a dragon two years ago and kept his body just for this).and change himself to ONE of the souls as well.

who do u think shell win? ( i think he'll have more opportunities to flee tho).

btw troll reg won't work as the troll suffer non-lethal damage from other then acid\fire damage.and that is what is healed. he need a fast healing creature.
and i did mention that up to level 10 he can only move MAGICAL healing...

Milskidasith
2010-06-30, 04:38 PM
ok. point to point.
first. and not really a matter here. i do not allow psions in the campaign (as i told my players.if your allowed one im aloud a thousand) they are unbalanced.not even going to open a debate about them at all.

second a wizard of same level can easily dominate (much more easy then killing ) any of said above and you will have to face them all together. so the point of being a wizard instead? ... don't go hunting them ,go dominating them and then as mentioned before you can use them all together(zerg rush with the 11th level wizard and the nymph and the rest.with out a limit to his level or theirs.and by the way since i don't normally block domination spells ,it's a class future, he'll get all his undead horde on the back row for back up.)

instead the st can summon the souls of living victims he had to kill(or be there close to death) if he has the right body size(yep i killed a dragon two years ago and kept his body just for this).and change himself to ONE of the souls as well.

who do u think shell win? ( i think he'll have more opportunities to flee tho).

btw troll reg won't work as the troll suffer non-lethal damage from other then acid\fire damage.and that is what is healed. he need a fast healing creature.
and i did mention that up to level 10 he can only move MAGICAL healing...

First off: Psions aren't unbalanced.

Second: Who do I think will win, a wizard with no class features, or an equal level wizard with no lost spellcasting with the ability to get any ability in the game from stuff he kills... it's going to be your PrC. The PrC gives absurdly overpowered class features for no cost at all, which is not good design.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 04:50 PM
let me just throw a gess here...u never took the leadership feat.

as the level get higher it's no longer one on one fights.and if ur foolish enough to go to a dual without some1 waiting to null-scalp the enemy if it seems like he's winning then that is your problem. hairlines.henchmen summoned nature spirits.elementals golems undead leagons, the list go on.if ur a high level wizard all alone vs some1 who came with his army...what are u even doing there?!?

this prestige class is all about getting the army you want in a pinch(as long as you could handle them before).

that said wizard should not even have problems taking out the troll then the fighter then the what ever shape the st will bring on.since it will be of a lesser level.not to mention the fact the he really should have some muscle on his side.

btw.check up spells like acid pit (3rd level arcane spell.grimmore II i believe).dropping the st there should kill him and any other shape he cards to take if not immune to acid.

Milskidasith
2010-06-30, 05:00 PM
let me just throw a gess here...u never took the leadership feat.

as the level get higher it's no longer one on one fights.and if ur foolish enough to go to a dual without some1 waiting to null-scalp the enemy if it seems like he's winning then that is your problem. hairlines.henchmen summoned nature spirits.elementals golems undead leagons, the list go on.if ur a high level wizard all alone vs some1 who came with his army...what are u even doing there?!?

This has nothing to do with anything I've stated. The fact is, there is no wizard who would not take this PrC if they had the levels for it, because it grants free abilities at no cost. Everything you are talking about has nothing to do with what I've said at all... a base wizard just gets spellcasting, but, for essentially no cost, he can enter this PrC and get abilities and spellcasting.

Basically, imagine it this way: What if there was a PrC that was called "Fighter Plus" which required five levels in fighter, gave 2 BAB per level, and two bonus feats a level, for no cost. Nobody would take the regular fighter over the Fighter Plus. That's essentially what this class is: a wizard plus more.


btw.check up spells like acid pit (3rd level arcane spell.grimmore II i believe).dropping the st there should kill him and any other shape he cards to take if not immune to acid.

As a side note: That book, if it even exists (I can't find it on google) is third party, and third party books are banned in almost all games and generally not taken into consideration when judging things. Furthermore, even if a wizard could use this to hurt a soul thief, the soul thief could also take the spell. That's my point: Spell thief gets all the power a wizard has, and more.

JoshuaZ
2010-06-30, 05:03 PM
English may not be your native language, but formatting is still a good thing. Please see this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) which includes a nicely formatted template for PrCs.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 05:13 PM
ok 1st thing.don't know what 3rd books are all about.i had a hard time getting my hands on what i have.as stated English is not the native language here.

i see you keep missing my point so ill say it clearly and not come back to it.what a wizard that takes level in st is loosing is any hope of ever having anything but the souls and maybe haired\charmed help. any form of commending other stuff as golems summoned and such things is nurfed.

i guess that the reason you don't really care of this is that you never played army vs army or even a battle of 40~ combatant at the same time .in higher levels unless ur doing solo adventures and small commando gaming it is a Hugh change for the game. now be truthful and tell me you played a high level campaign where every character has his\hers group of aiders. and the enemy has swarms of DIFFERENT kind of minions...yes a lone wizard won't need anything other then his familiar...right.
if your willing to give up that to be a st then good for you.and if you play smart and do all the right dirty deeds you will even win.but be straight.it won't be a walk in the park.

Milskidasith
2010-06-30, 05:16 PM
ok 1st thing.don't know what 3rd books are all about.i had a hard time getting my hands on what i have.as stated English is not the native language here.

i see you keep missing my point so ill say it clearly and not come back to it.what a wizard that takes level in st is loosing is any hope of ever having anything but the souls and maybe haired\charmed help. any form of commending other stuff as golems summoned and such things is nurfed.

i guess that the reason you don't really care of this is that you never played army vs army or even a battle of 40~ combatant at the same time .in higher levels unless ur doing solo adventures and small commando gaming it is a Hugh change for the game. now be truthful and tell me you played a high level campaign where every character has his\hers group of aiders. and the enemy has swarms of DIFFERENT kind of minions...yes a lone wizard won't need anything other then his familiar...right.
if your willing to give up that to be a st then good for you.and if you play smart and do all the right dirty deeds you will even win.but be straight.it won't be a walk in the park.

There is nothing in the class features that prevents them from taking Leadership or summoning things. If you want this to be the case, please put it in the class features, because what you are saying and what the class features actually allow are completely different. If it really can't take leadership or summon things, it's somewhat less overpowered, although the obvious abuses (kill a sarrukh, gain the power to do anything) are still there, and leadership really isn't as powerful as you make it seem; it has abuses, but besides your cohort, the minions granted by it are essentially irrelevant.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 05:19 PM
In my experiences, wizards are stronger than psions, but I'll concede the point. Substitute "11th-level member of class X" instead of "11th-level psion".

But to reiterate:

You said you won't shoot what you can't duck. As written, your soulthief is better than a straight wizard, which is arguably already the most powerful class in the game (or near too it). And not by a little. It's a lot better.

Srsly! You're throwing around 9th-level spell equivalents at level 10-13, without sacrificing anything of equal value. Your PCs cannot match this without resorting to extreme optimization or using prestige classes like incantatrix or planar shephard that are universally regarded as overpowered and excessive.

As I said in my first post, if you intend it purely as a DM special, it's alright, but if you're balancing it against options that are available to players, it will need some significant whacks from the nerf bat.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 05:29 PM
The stress of containing the chamber and it's hosted souls is immense and take a great toll from the Soul Thief's mind and soul .As long as the chamber has even one soul trapped in it the soul thief can summon no creature by spell, have no familiar(previous familiars are freed with no xp loss) and have no animal companion or a link that resemble it (such as the Beast Heart prestige class ability). Dominated creatures count against the total the chamber can hold, but Charmed creatures do not.(the Soul Thief can be as charming as he like)

as i said,there are a lot of barbs in the st souls plotting against him.as well as the drawbacks.
as also stated the st can't put in the chamber something with hd higher then his level -2. and on the side note i added that on my campaign minions and such are caped.
please read before posting.

Milskidasith
2010-06-30, 05:37 PM
as i said,there are a lot of barbs in the st souls plotting against him.as well as the drawbacks.
as also stated the st can't put in the chamber something with hd higher then his level -2. and on the side note i added that on my campaign minions and such are caped.
please read before posting.

That doesn't prevent them from taking Leadership. They are still strictly better than a wizard, and if they want to take Leadership, they can still get a cohort and have plenty of low HD souls with various powerful abilities, for absolutely no cost.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 05:44 PM
you clearly don't bother reading...leadership every1 can have...so?
what about the dominated hoards a normal wizard can have? his summoned elementals and planer calls?.his crafted golems (under dominated) and risen undead...do i need to really grab ur hand and go through all this thread again for u to see it?!?

im not posting again for things u don't even bother reading.

Temotei
2010-06-30, 05:55 PM
you clearly don't bother reading...leadership every1 can have...so?
what about the dominated hoards a normal wizard can have? his summoned elementals and planer calls?.his crafted golems (under dominated) and risen undead...do i need to really grab ur hand and go through all this thread again for u to see it?!?

im not posting again for things u don't even bother reading.


Typing Incoherently
This is a written medium and people have to read what you write. Chat speak, l33t speak and anything that has to be “translated” falls into this area. You may have something incredible to say, but it won’t be read if you use “m8” and “pwn3d” as every other word in a post. The occasional typo or confusion regarding spelling is understood and expected, but at least take a moment to read over a message before you post it.


Flaming
Any poster that openly attacks, insults, belittles, or abuses another poster will have their offending post modified and an Infraction issued to them. You can be critical of another poster's viewpoint in a debate, even going as far as to explain why you believe them to be mistaken and backing your points up with rules quotes as appropriate, but the moment your criticism extends to the person who posted that viewpoint, it has crossed the line.


Tell a poster that they clearly didn't read what you wrote. Alternately, any statement that implies that the only way someone could disagree with you is because they don't understand you/can't read properly is likewise not allowed.


Rules for everyone's enjoyment.

The class is essentially what Milskidasith and Jiriku have said it is--overpowered. It's going to need something to take it down a few notches. Missing caster levels, penalties, restrictions, tough prerequisites, etc.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 05:58 PM
Zzan, can I offer a few words of advice?

I've taken milski's feedback on half a dozen of my own projects. I've read his responses to literally scores of other people's projects. He is the Sherlock Holmes of homebrew. He has a sense for this stuff that the rest of us mortals don't have. If milski tells you there's a problem with your class, then there's a problem. Just take it on faith, even if you don't see it. His track record is unimpeachable.

If he has trouble catching all of the details of your work, as a gentleman you should take responsibility for that yourself. As you said, it's seven pages of hastily translated material, created by someone who hasn't mastered English, and there's critical information buried throughout the thread. It's OK to admit to yourself that your work might be hard to read.

Also, it's important to remember something when you post on the Homebrew forum. You wrote PEACH in your title. The fourth word in that acronym is CRITIQUE. If you come here looking for criticism of your work, you're going to get it. You need to check your ego at the door and take the criticism that you asked for. If you argue every point that's made, you're wasting our (donated) time.

Your class has problems. We're offering advice. You came here because you wanted expert opinions. You're getting them. Play nice.

master zzan
2010-06-30, 06:08 PM
i apologize if i offended some one. i really use "l33t" because it's easier then trying to get the spelling right.
as for the feedback. thank you all for being so helpful. ill see what i can do to tweak this a bit more.