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Salbazier
2010-06-30, 01:54 PM
I'm just curious. Why it seems that there are many people who dislike them (consider them annoying, ect)? I've read it has something to do with kender (and I even don't what kender is except that they are from Dragonlance)

Inhuman Bot
2010-06-30, 01:57 PM
Kenders = short, annoying, kleptomaniacs.

Keld Denar
2010-06-30, 01:58 PM
Personally, I like gnomes. They aren't one of the best races, but they are pretty strong and versatile with the +2 Con. They also have some awesome choises, especially the amazing Shadowcraft Mage.

Gnaeus
2010-06-30, 02:01 PM
Kender aren't gnomes, they are closer to halflings.

I love the gnomes too, especially casters.

FoE
2010-06-30, 02:02 PM
I don't mind gnomes now as they are in 4E, where they were made into Fey to differentiate them from dwarves. But before, they were basically "dwarves lite," except that they were more adept at magic, drank a bit less and were more greedy.

Kender are a whole other ball of wax. Kender are thieving little magpies whose habit of "borrowing" other peoples' stuff is justified because their great curiousity. It's not that kender's fault he took your magic ring — he's just being curious!

Myth
2010-06-30, 02:16 PM
Whisper Gnomes are one of the best non LA races for 3.5, and a Gnome is used for the Infinite Shadow Dragons build. Svinfeblin (Deep Gnomes) are a decent LA race which get SR and some other nice abilities.

I think I like them. The only one I don't like is Jan Jansen and his turnip jokes :smallwink:

LibraryOgre
2010-06-30, 02:17 PM
Jealousy .

Salbazier
2010-06-30, 02:18 PM
Well, I know most people don't hate gnome (especially those who love to play illusionist) it just that some post I read lately seems to indicatet that there's common dislike of gnomes among some people. Maybe I use too strong title

Keld Denar
2010-06-30, 02:19 PM
Nose envy?

Myshlaevsky
2010-06-30, 02:19 PM
Whisper Gnomes are one of the best non LA races for 3.5, and a Gnome is used for the Infinite Shadow Dragons build. Svinfeblin (Deep Gnomes) are a decent LA race which get SR and some other nice abilities.

I think I like them. The only one I don't like is Jan Jansen and his turnip jokes :smallwink:

"You know, this reminds me of that time, waaaaay back..."

I quite like gnomes. At least, I don't dislike them. However I do prefer kobolds.

Hyudra
2010-06-30, 03:04 PM
Gnomes don't really have a distinct racial identity. They're a middle ground between two or three PHB races, and there's not really any existing material to draw from in terms of figuring out how to act (or to use as a starting point for your own character's personality).

They're just pretty bland.

Choco
2010-06-30, 03:07 PM
Personally, my hatred of gnomes comes exclusively from WoW. Gnomes and Night Elves in that game have a HUGELY disproportionate amount of @$$hole players among their ranks. So even though WoW gnomes and D&D gnomes really don't have much to do with each other, I now hate them simply because they share the same name :smalltongue:

Cicciograna
2010-06-30, 03:13 PM
Personally, I'm fond of them. Their dual nature of magic-lovers and alchemists/scientists/engineers makes them versatile (fluffwise); mechanically, they have nice features, with those nifty spell-like abilities, plus they're Small and this is often good.

One of my favourite PCs was a Gnome Illusionist who pissed off all of his comrades with cruel pranks: once I rolled a natural 20 on the Alchemy check (3rd Edition) to craft a "Potion of diarrhea" and managed to pour it on the rations of the ranger of the group. He passed the following 3 days in the wild as "Nature made a particularly urgent call"!

gallagher
2010-06-30, 03:13 PM
well, i always figured that people didnt like them because they are the only race in the PHB that didnt show up in the LOTR movies (i know many a people who only watched the movies cuz the books are "too outdated" in language)

Dragosai
2010-06-30, 03:14 PM
Gnomes are the hobos of fantasy. OK joking aside I think "most" gamers dislike gnomes because they are always played the same way. Now I know what I just wrote will spew forth several dozen posts about wait I played my gnome like this or like this, I don't care. 99% of the time any given gnome in an RPG is role played in one of the same half dozen ways, it's just been done to death. It's like the character who becomes a hero do to his/her/its beloved peasant village being destroyed, let it go, move on, find another shtick.

Salbazier
2010-06-30, 03:14 PM
BTW, anybody knows why they made gnome race anyway? All other race are classics.

Pronounceable
2010-06-30, 03:14 PM
Dunno. I hate them because they're gnomes. Being a DnDish gnome, or even having the name gnome (like the guys with pointy red hats) is grounds enough to be loathed, despised, hated, ridiculed and exterminated far as I care.

I stand by my right to hate and refuse to stoop to meaningless rationalizations,

a Gnome Illusionist who pissed off all of his comrades with cruel pranks: once I rolled a natural 20 on the Alchemy check (3rd Edition) to craft a "Potion of diarrhea" and managed to pour it on the rations of the ranger of the group. He passed the following 3 days in the wild as "Nature made a particularly urgent call"!


I think "most" gamers dislike gnomes because they are always played the same way.
...even when they could be considered valid.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-30, 03:16 PM
Personally, I like the Pathfinder gnome fluff a lot, what with their connection to all things fae.
I also want to play a gnome in greasepaint, three fingered white gloves and wielding a large wooden mallet.
Th-Th-Th-Th-Th-... That's all, folks!

Chaelos
2010-06-30, 03:23 PM
This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_MpZWzXQFU)

This is why I hate gnomes.

JeenLeen
2010-06-30, 03:29 PM
A friend of mine printed out what looked like a common saying "Friends don't let friends play gnomes." I don't know where it got it and I haven't heard it elsewhere, so I assume it never became a popular meme, but I've also heard of this dislike of gnomes.

I don't get it. -2 Str, +2 Con is a good deal, and some SLAs are nice even if they're not often useful. Sure, dwarves have +2 to saves against magic, but gnomes still seem a decent spellcasting race.

Teron
2010-06-30, 03:39 PM
Gnomes don't really have a distinct racial identity. They're a middle ground between two or three PHB races, and there's not really any existing material to draw from in terms of figuring out how to act (or to use as a starting point for your own character's personality).

They're just pretty bland.
And when they do have a distinct identity, it's usually a goofy, one-note prankster or mad scientist one, which tends to get grating.

As usual when this topic comes up, though, I'll say that Eberron (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a) are pretty cool.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-30, 03:41 PM
The reason the gnome haters I know said they hate gnomes is basically because they aren't in one of the primary D&D source books, Lord of the Rings. It had half orcs in the form of Uruk-Hai, or possibly others, halflings are basically hobbits, or at least the sneaky, stealthy parts, elves and dwarves are obvious.
But no gnomes.

Salbazier
2010-06-30, 03:43 PM
And when they do have a distinct identity, it's usually a goofy, one-note prankster or mad scientist one, which tends to get grating.

As usual when this topic comes up, though, I'll say that Eberron (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041129a) gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041206a) are pretty cool.

Everything in Eberron is made of cool and win :smallbiggrin: (yes, this is hyperbole)

Bayar
2010-06-30, 03:48 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.

Bharg
2010-06-30, 03:50 PM
The thing is gnomes are somewhere between halflings and dwarfs.
Of course halflings and dwarfs are hated, too, but gnomes...
They're just too big to be considered cute (halflings) anymore and not strong enough to defend themselves (dwarfs).

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-30, 03:58 PM
Alright, yes I have a strong dislike for gnomes. It all stems from 2nd edition, when they were mostly illusionists. Every time I played an elf, the DM would have some irritating gnome play pranks on my uptight and self-righteous character.

I generally plotted on ways to wipe gnomes from existence. It safe to say that I never got the chance. And even though my animosity towards the little buggers has lessened, I still reserve some contempt for the little ones.

With that said, I have seen some really great gnome characters played. I just can't seem to wrap my brain around actually playing one.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-30, 03:59 PM
The reason the gnome haters I know said they hate gnomes is basically because they aren't in one of the primary D&D source books, Lord of the Rings. It had half orcs in the form of Uruk-Hai, or possibly others, halflings are basically hobbits, or at least the sneaky, stealthy parts, elves and dwarves are obvious.
But no gnomes.

Read "Three Hearts and Three Lions" by Poul Anderson. Hugi is called a dwarf, but he's much closer to the conception of a gnome.

Early on, the gnomes did suffer somewhat from a lack of identity, but I think they'd found a pretty good one by the end of 2e (especially as Dragonlance faded from prominence as a game world). They were pranksters, yes, but also nature-loving, curious, and social, with the added dimension of not having goddesses and not being quite sure why (in fact, it was something their deities refused to talk about). 3e shoved them harder towards the fey, somewhat blurred the lines between forest and rock gnomes, and diluted a lot of what made them interesting the first place.

chiasaur11
2010-06-30, 04:08 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?


Agreed.

Kobolds are totally justified in pursuit of that particular genocide.

Also, they mindwipe criminals, if I remember right, which is messed up.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-30, 04:13 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?

By your logic Drow should be good and surface Elves evil because Loith's story of her fall differs from the one Corellon tells. Why do you believe the Kobold's version of the tale? If someone burned down an orphanage and told you "Those orphans attacked me" would you believe him? No you wouldn't so why trust the tale told from the point of view from the Kobolds?

There are a few other versions of that tale, in one Kurtulmak intended to play a great joke. He invited all other racial deities for a great feast where he would tell them a tale, at the end he would pull out a ornate stone trigger and bury the assembled deities alive.

Garl came upon the cavern and pulled out the stone burying the kobold in his own trap. Either to see if it actually work or simply to laugh in Kurtulmak's face.

So which tale is more likely the one told my gnomes or the one told my kobolds. Based only on the races typical reputation and alignment.

Another version of the tale has Garl collapsing the cave while Kurtulmak was hosting Asemodeus. The archdevil was not pleased.

Really why believe the legend told by an evil race?

Shademan
2010-06-30, 04:22 PM
gnomes are always somewhat of a joke in my campaigns. yets I couldn't imagine NOT having them around.

FMArthur
2010-06-30, 04:27 PM
When you encounter a gnome, you know some tricks are about to be pulled, or already have been. Gnomes are illusionists in the worst case scenario and sneaky pickpockets in the best. They might even be your friends, but that only means their shenanigans are not intended to kill you; they'll still be annoying.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-30, 04:33 PM
"The reason people hate us gnomes is because most of us keep telling stupid stories about their families, turnips and exploding inventions. Like my Uncle Vlab who burned off his eye brows when his turnip cannon exploded. He's always telling people stories about our family members"
—Morten Shadowrock a gnome complaining about his own race.

Nero24200
2010-06-30, 04:49 PM
In my experience, gnomes are the least versatile. I mean that in a specific way.

I've only ever seen a handful of gnomes in game, and they were all light-hearted, curious, and overly-cheerful.

Though to be honest, standard D'n'D gnomes aren't that great to begin with. In terms of fluff, there is very little difference from dwarves...in terms of mechanics they're not too special either (not saying Overpowered or Underpowerd....just not special, most of their traits are replicated by drawves and the rest is some illusion bonuses). Ebberron kinda sorted this one out a little by giving them the "back-stabbing politician" and "gadget tinker" niche firmly, but thats still not alot. PF and 4th give them some fey-related fluff, but that doesn't change much either.

As much as I don't particularly like gnomes (not hating them either, I'm neutral), it annoys me though that it's likely alot of people don't like them because they aren't Tolken. Elves, Dwarves and Halflings are going to be in every edition of D'n'D because they're in lord of the rings.

erikun
2010-06-30, 04:55 PM
One big reason for the hate is that, as late as 3.5e, there wasn't that much of an obvious identity for the gnomes. They were dwarf-like elves, elf-like halflings, and halfling-like dwarves. You could sum up the orcs, dwarves, elves and halflings as "strong people, tough people, agile magical naturey people, and small people." Gnomes ended up being small, tough, magically naturey people, which always seemed a bit too close to the others.

Also, the gnome being described as "chaotic" and "trickster" attracted all the worst Chaotic Stupid spellcasters. Also, there tends to be a lot of small-race hate in general; not all of it is gnome specific.

I personally like the gnome race. I enjoy their curiousity, their innovation, and their relaxed nature. It fits me well when playing a scholar, a tinkerer, or a rogue. I even liked them back in 2nd edition, when they suffered from a wisdom penality from being far too curious for their own good. :smallbiggrin:


BTW, anybody knows why they made gnome race anyway? All other race are classics.
I hope by "classic" you mean "Tolkien".

As for why they were made? Probably because D&D did not have an inately magical race before that. Elves were supposed to be "magic" but beyond keen eyesight, didn't really have anything magic about them. Gnomes were based a lot more on the mythical fey, and so get magically illusionary abilities and the tricky attitudes.

Lord Loss
2010-06-30, 04:59 PM
Gnome Hate? I love gnomes and was unaware of this tendency. i enjoy the natural curiosity of gnomes, their dedication towards both arcane magic and science.

Salbazier
2010-06-30, 05:09 PM
I hope by "classic" you mean "Tolkien".



Tolkien-era will be more correct. Please Pardon that. I'm not quite aware of classic fantasy literature with Gnomes. Beyond DnD, it seems most of the fantasy stuff out there is just dwarf, elves, orcs or something smiliar. Otherwise it is some new exotic race altogehter. That may be just my lack of reading.

erikun
2010-06-30, 05:25 PM
The only one off the top of my head is Fang the Gnome (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/michael-g-coney/fang-gnome.htm), which is an Arthurian tale of a Merlin-esque sorceress who employs the help of the gnomes to set right an otherwise cataclysmic series of events. (I haven't sat down to read it yet, so don't press me for too many details.)

There isn't much literature about gnomes, and the ones that aren't influenced by Tolkien/D&D tend to treat them as european folklore - fairies or spirits which hid in the earth, talked to animals and generally used their magic to keep out of sight. Most children's literature images them like garden gnomes, with pointy hats, large noses, and jolly attitudes. Then again, most fantasy creatures in children's literature tend to have comical appearances and positive personalities. :smalltongue:

Conan didn't have dwarves or elves. The Odyessy did not, either. I can't think of many before Tolkien that did, honestly, and the few elves that I remember we more like Santa's elves than Legolas. Lord of the Rings was very, very big at the time, and D&D is basically LotR the RPG. Almost the entire genre of fantasy afterward has been influenced heavily by either Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons, and it really shows. Even computer RPGs tend to place elves as humans with magic and pointy ears, and dwarves as humans with high stamina and little magical ability.

grarrrg
2010-06-30, 05:47 PM
I think gnomes are great!


You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 05:48 PM
I think gnomes are great!


You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...

Don't forget punting!

Q: How many gnomes can you fit in a stewpot?
A: None, because it's already full of Kender

Salbazier
2010-06-30, 05:49 PM
I think gnomes are great!


You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...

Now, I'm hungry..

Masaioh
2010-06-30, 06:14 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.

Reading RotD now. In my campaigns, Gnomes are Usually Neutral Evil, so this should provide plenty of ideas.

Skeppio
2010-06-30, 06:17 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?

This pretty much sums my views up. And remember kids, Garl never had to pay for his crimes.

Eldan
2010-06-30, 06:20 PM
The only one off the top of my head is Fang the Gnome (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/c/michael-g-coney/fang-gnome.htm), which is an Arthurian tale of a Merlin-esque sorceress who employs the help of the gnomes to set right an otherwise cataclysmic series of events. (I haven't sat down to read it yet, so don't press me for too many details.)

There isn't much literature about gnomes, and the ones that aren't influenced by Tolkien/D&D tend to treat them as european folklore - fairies or spirits which hid in the earth, talked to animals and generally used their magic to keep out of sight. Most children's literature images them like garden gnomes, with pointy hats, large noses, and jolly attitudes. Then again, most fantasy creatures in children's literature tend to have comical appearances and positive personalities. :smalltongue:

Conan didn't have dwarves or elves. The Odyessy did not, either. I can't think of many before Tolkien that did, honestly, and the few elves that I remember we more like Santa's elves than Legolas. Lord of the Rings was very, very big at the time, and D&D is basically LotR the RPG. Almost the entire genre of fantasy afterward has been influenced heavily by either Lord of the Rings or Dungeons and Dragons, and it really shows. Even computer RPGs tend to place elves as humans with magic and pointy ears, and dwarves as humans with high stamina and little magical ability.

Another problem being that the lines are very blurred, especially where naming is concerned. A lot of folklore didn't really differentiate between gnome and kobold, or dwarf and gnome.
Example? The little guys with the pointy red hats standing around as small statues in gardens are called "garden dwarves" in german.
So at least in swiss legends, dwarves are tiny people living in the mountains and forests in caves under trees, helping people out in exchange for payment, as well as skilled miners.

erikun
2010-06-30, 06:29 PM
Very true. I could point out The Elves and the Shoemaker as another example. The "elves" in the tale are short, little people who sneak into the house at night unseen, cobble together shoes (or whatever the tale says), and then sneak away to the forest in the morning. They are said to be incredibly destructive when mistreated, or industrious and even singing when treated properly.

This kind of tale looks to be what the designers had in mind for the gnomes when they were introduced to D&D - a small, unseen people with a flair for magic, craft, and trickery in vengence. They certainly don't sound anything like the elves in D&D, which are largely a Tolkien construct. (Tolkien elves have more in common with the Irish Sidhe, complete with their unearthly beauty and their dark cousins.)

Siosilvar
2010-06-30, 06:40 PM
I think gnomes are great!


You can boil 'em, mash 'em, or put 'em in a stew...

What's taters?

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 06:42 PM
Re: Kurtulmak: He's evil because he let his desire for revenge rule him. Rather than take up the Gods' offer of setting right what Glittergold did, fixing the great hall he had made and bringing back all of the kobolds to life out of the weyrgild owed him, he instead elected to take the suffering of his dead kobolds and his rage and hate in order to gain godhood in order to pursue revenge against Garl Glittergold and the gnomes (who were not connected to the collapse anyway) for all eternity.

So, yeah...

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 06:46 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?


Agreed.

Kobolds are totally justified in pursuit of that particular genocide.


This pretty much sums my views up. And remember kids, Garl never had to pay for his crimes.

Uhh... You guys do realize Kurtulmak himself wrote that story, right?

Do you believe Grummsh and Zarus too? :smallconfused:

Skeppio
2010-06-30, 06:51 PM
Re: Kurtulmak: He's evil because he let his desire for revenge rule him. Rather than take up the Gods' offer of setting right what Glittergold did, fixing the great hall he had made and bringing back all of the kobolds to life out of the weyrgild owed him, he instead elected to take the suffering of his dead kobolds and his rage and hate in order to gain godhood in order to pursue revenge against Garl Glittergold and the gnomes (who were not connected to the collapse anyway) for all eternity.

So, yeah...

Become a god and leave your collapsed mine, or have the mine rebuilt and let your brethren go abandoned by the gods forever more. Gee, what a selfish sod Kurtulmak is. How dare he take Io's offer to become the only divine beacon his kind will ever have.

d13
2010-06-30, 07:18 PM
(...) I think "most" gamers dislike gnomes because they are always played the same way.

Like... Every elf is an egomaniac arse, and every dwarf is a drunken heavy hitter?

I don't see them getting this much hate xD

Morph Bark
2010-06-30, 07:33 PM
Whisper Gnomes are one of the best non LA races for 3.5, and a Gnome is used for the Infinite Shadow Dragons build. Svinfeblin (Deep Gnomes) are a decent LA race which get SR and some other nice abilities.

I think I like them. The only one I don't like is Jan Jansen and his turnip jokes :smallwink:

There actually is a gnome named Jan Jansen?


Uhh... You guys do realize Kurtulmak himself wrote that story, right?

Do you believe Grummsh and Zarus too? :smallconfused:

Do we believe any gods who wrote auto-biographies?

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 09:07 PM
^: There've been Scandinavians with the name, so... quite plausibly.
Become a god and leave your collapsed mine, or have the mine rebuilt and let your brethren go abandoned by the gods forever more. Gee, what a selfish sod Kurtulmak is. How dare he take Io's offer to become the only divine beacon his kind will ever have.

And the overwhelming majority worship Tiamat instead and are largely in thrall to dragons as opposed to living for themselves.

He's such a good divine beacon for the kobolds, really looks out for his people.

Frankly, from what we can glean from his life and what state kobolds of the current era are in, koboldkind would have been better off with some example surviving of a nation of kobold who were not slaves and had something impressive to go to their names rather than hovels to lay more eggs in.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 09:20 PM
Do we believe any gods who wrote auto-biographies?

The ones we saw as mortals, yes (e.g. Kelemvor and Midnight.) All the rest... no.

Especially not the evil ones, who use their sob stories as a crutch to justify leading their people down a path of racism and wickedness. Boohoo, Corellon poked my eye out. Let's rape/pillage!

chiasaur11
2010-06-30, 09:34 PM
Uhh... You guys do realize Kurtulmak himself wrote that story, right?

Do you believe Grummsh and Zarus too? :smallconfused:

But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

Stupid gnomes.

erikun
2010-06-30, 09:49 PM
But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

Stupid gnomes.
Odd. I think you would be hard pressed to find a PC of any alignment that doesn't laugh when the BBEG walks into his own booby trap and kills himself.

Good doesn't mean nice, and it especially doesn't mean sympathy for an enemy that was planning on assassinating you. And he mostly admired the mechanical aspects of the trap, not it's intended use. It was quite effective at trapping an evil deity (or demideity at the time), after all.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 09:53 PM
But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

Where? Races of the Dragon? I can't find anything on the Gnome's perspective there.

chiasaur11
2010-06-30, 10:08 PM
Where? Races of the Dragon? I can't find anything on the Gnome's perspective there.

Oh, no, the older story.

Sorry. Still looks bad for Garl. Just less actively being evil.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-30, 10:13 PM
But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

Stupid gnomes.

No they don't they tell a very different story, Kurtulmak was planning to collapse it the whole time. He just didn't intend to be a victim it self.
Optimystik, the gnome side of the story is in other books, I posted the gnome version earlier in the thread if you'd like to read it. I think one of the versions was in dragon magazine.

Coidzor
2010-06-30, 10:27 PM
But the gnomes tell the same damn story!

I mean, yeah, Kurtulmak ain't a good guy at all, sure, but criminey Christmas, even assuming that the whole "Yeah, big K was setting the thing up to be a jerk" bit is the accurate story, with the most gnome positive slant, Garl still admired it and thought the whole jackass pit trap was the best idea ever. And yet he's labeled good.

Stupid gnomes.

Yeah, I just don't see them as being capable of anything other than CN even at the deity level.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 10:34 PM
No they don't they tell a very different story, Kurtulmak was planning to collapse it the whole time. He just didn't intend to be a victim it self.
Optimystik, the gnome side of the story is in other books, I posted the gnome version earlier in the thread if you'd like to read it. I think one of the versions was in dragon magazine.

I read that - catching the kobold in his own trap seems fine to me.


Oh, no, the older story.

Sorry. Still looks bad for Garl. Just less actively being evil.

Hoisting Kurtulmak on his own petard isn't evil at all, active or not. Sorry, but with no way to independently verify whose story is true, I'll just respond with [citation needed].

deuxhero
2010-06-30, 10:35 PM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.


!

Summary, nao!

Caphi
2010-06-30, 10:39 PM
I hate gnomes because Pathfinder just released a bunch of neat magic feats that are gnome-only for some idiotic reason. Fortunately my GM let me take Effortless Trickery anyway...

Zaq
2010-06-30, 10:56 PM
I've never had a problem with gnomes. They share a little bit of common ground with dwarves, but not enough to step on their toes. In my mind, they're very tied to the land, but they're very welcoming about it. It'd be easy to be part of a gnome burrow, if you had some interest in the stone and the area around it. This is in contrast to dwarves, who would let you sit at their halls, but wouldn't let you be WITH them.

Oh, and I find the "propensity for long and multi-part names" to be hilarious. It's also a great way to make acronyms.

I hate what they did to them in 4e, though. They're much too cool to be lumped in with the elves and eladrin and other pricks from the Plane of Sue. Gnomes can be plenty magical without needing the little [fey] tag.

Fri
2010-06-30, 10:59 PM
One of my favourite PCs was a Gnome Illusionist who pissed off all of his comrades with cruel pranks: once I rolled a natural 20 on the Alchemy check (3rd Edition) to craft a "Potion of diarrhea" and managed to pour it on the rations of the ranger of the group. He passed the following 3 days in the wild as "Nature made a particularly urgent call"!

This is why.

And as the others have said, they're simply redundant. You already have dwarves, and you already have halffings. What niche do gnomes take? Why do you need so many short races in your campaign anyway?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-30, 11:09 PM
This is why.

And as the others have said, they're simply redundant. You already have dwarves, and you already have halffings. What niche do gnomes take? Why do you need so many short races in your campaign anyway?

Gnomes are a merchant and trader race, dwarves are craftsmen, halflings are nomadic gypsies.

They all have a nitch.

Thiyr
2010-06-30, 11:11 PM
Personally, I find gnomes amusing and good to keep around if lacking noteworthiness outside of their illusionistry. I've seen gnomes of differing personalities and characterizations, though they all tend to be chipper and in some sense lacking a "normal" mindset.

I reserve my racial hatreds for kobolds.

JGoldenberg
2010-06-30, 11:13 PM
In my Campaign world I basically made made Smurfs Gnomes illusionist trap makers who constantly out think Gargamel and his Baba Yaga and her legion of Hags who want to harvest them to make gold to eat them.

I myself love Gnomes but find it hard to do much with them because if I differentiate them too much so they have their own feel, I piss off players who are too used to them being tricky illusionists or crazy inventors.


Edit: I'd like to go on record for pledging my allegiance to Kobolds by the way, name ONE Gnome who is better than Deekin.

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 11:16 PM
Unwritten rule: You gotta hate Elves or Gnomes. I love Elves. Do the math.

JGoldenberg
2010-06-30, 11:18 PM
Unwritten rule: You gotta hate Elves or Gnomes. I love Elves. Do the math.

I actually hate elves. Too many players play them as prissy better-than-thou mary sues. I solved that by making Elves tribal savage lion riding badasses. Let's see my players pull that crappy superiority complex now when they're using spears.

Eldariel
2010-06-30, 11:25 PM
I actually hate elves.

That's unfortunately common.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-30, 11:26 PM
Gnomes are cool. -2 STR, +2 Con with Small size is great for several classes. They get 4 spell-like abilities which improve their versatility a lot at low levels along with +1 DC to Illusion spells.


Gnomes also have lots of different variants that improve their versatility.

The Whisper Gnome is a very popular favorite, although they sacrifice some of their spellcasting boosts.

Chaos Gnomes are a great +1 LA race that get a lot of nice benefits if you're in a campaign with an LA buy-off. +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 Caster level on Chaos Spells, a reroll 1/day, and 5 spell like abilities are great.

Forest Gnomes get Pass without a Trace at-will, +4 to hide and another +4 in forest areas

Lesser Deep Gnomes are amazing too. They keep all the gnome's advantages (except trading +2 Con for +2 Dex) and get a bunch of new bonus traits.

arguskos
2010-06-30, 11:28 PM
Unwritten rule: You gotta hate Elves or Gnomes. I love Elves. Do the math.
Eldariel, if you were interested and didn't live in Finland, I would marry you in a HEARTBEAT. :smallbiggrin:

So much truth in that statement. I was gonna actually say something unique, only to find that the Eld sorta said everything I could ever say instead. :smallbiggrin:

Thiyr
2010-06-30, 11:32 PM
Edit: I'd like to go on record for pledging my allegiance to Kobolds by the way, name ONE Gnome who is better than Deekin.

Gnome Chompski (http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/Gnome_Chompski)

Kobolds tend to bore me, as I always see them done the same way, highly organized and huge on elaborate and/or layered traps everywhere. The lack of variation on this, coupled with good chunks of my playgroup going "There are kobolds there? Nope, not touching that" like kobolds are inherently a dangerous opponent get me...tired of them without dealing with them at all.

If nothing else, gnomes can make me giggle.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-30, 11:47 PM
Ah, gnomes. In 1e, they were unique amongst the demi-humans for two things: First, they had no racial modifiers. Secondly, they could be illusionists. They also had the ability to speak to burrowing mammals, giving them a great utility for someone willing to work at that. Gary described them thusly:

"Gnomes are most lively and full of humor -- often on the black side or practical jokes. They enjoy eating and can drink as much as dwarves do. They are sly and furtive with those they do not know or trust, and even somewhat reserved with most bigger folk such as elves or humans. Gnomes love all sorts of precious stones, and they are masters of gem polishing and cutting. In most other respects they are not unlike dwarves, but they enjoy the open world of growing things almost as much as their mines and burrows."

From this, we get an interesting picture of gnomes, but one I think was disrupted by Unearthed Arcana; with the introduction of Hill Dwarves, the aspect of "dwarves who are about in the world" was somewhat lost.

In many ways, I like the introduction of cantrips to all gnomes (so much I did it before WotC released 3e (http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/indep/newdd/Gnomes.htm)); it gives them clearer differentiation from dwarves, and while I'm not sure I like the "fey" aspect that has been given to them, they work well as characters who have seen the world, but not necessarily become jaded to it.

Serpentine
2010-07-01, 12:16 AM
I'm fine with gnomes. One of the longest-lasting and well-made characters I've played with (not mine, mind) is a gnome. She was somewhat smurfy for a while... (small and very blond, and got turned blue)

People complaining about how samey they are might be interested in my (and my ex-co-DM's) world. There are three main groups of gnomes:
1. The gnomes of the Goblin Isles. According to legend the islands were originally occupied by goblins, but then the gnomes wiped them out. Other people think it was just a case of mistaken identity or a nickname for the gnomes. Anyway. the Goblin Isles are more or less based on the Caribbean, and the gnomes themselves are based on the Caribbean pirates (or pirates of the Caribbean, if you will), if those pirates all had medieval European-style city-states on the islands that had constantly shifting alleigances and wars. These gnomes are technologically advanced, because they're constantly in an arms race with each other. Warforged are set to be developed sometime soon, but mostly as plantation workers, to keep the economy going at home while the populace is at war. One city of theirs my party's visited is made up of huge spires towering into the air, and plunging deep underground, possibly as far.
2. Continental gnomes, on the mainland, who are like the Jews of medieval times. They are the moneylenders and businesspeople, known to be untrustworthy, devious and tricksy, but still the people to whom everyone goes for their moneychanging needs.
3. The Clifftown gnomes are the more typical, silly, prankster, tinkering, illusionist types. They're sort of a colony of gnomes far, far inland, in the Highlands, who have sort a life of peace and experimentation, away from the troubles of the Goblin Isles.

Bayar
2010-07-01, 12:23 AM
^: There've been Scandinavians with the name, so... quite plausibly.

And the overwhelming majority worship Tiamat instead and are largely in thrall to dragons as opposed to living for themselves.

He's such a good divine beacon for the kobolds, really looks out for his people.

Frankly, from what we can glean from his life and what state kobolds of the current era are in, koboldkind would have been better off with some example surviving of a nation of kobold who were not slaves and had something impressive to go to their names rather than hovels to lay more eggs in.

Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?

JGoldenberg
2010-07-01, 12:32 AM
Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?


Not that I didn't enjoy reading this and agree, but you would make an awesome propagandist for Kobolds.

Serpentine
2010-07-01, 12:36 AM
Y'know, with the way I have the metaphysics of my game world, Garl and Kurtulmak would probably be opposing aspects of the same over-deity...

Skeppio
2010-07-01, 01:06 AM
Not that I didn't enjoy reading this and agree, but you would make an awesome propagandist for Kobolds.

And as a bonus, Bayer's completely right.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-01, 01:21 AM
I like gnomes a lot. This is because fantasy racism is HILARIOUS (which, itself, is for the same reason that most jokes told in America are racist or sexist in some way).

So I hate gnomes a lot.

Thiyr
2010-07-01, 01:22 AM
Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?

Well, there was this one time that he collapsed this guy's throne room on him and the arch-devil he was entertaining at the time.

Yep, apparently Kurtulmak wasn't quite so innocent at the time. Garl moreso had issue with the whole "consorting with evil outsiders" than the fact that gnomes were, yknow, being gnomes instead of getting money like the kobolds. The joke Garl ultimately pulled with this is kinda reminiscent of panel seven of this. (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/2p32)

Poor, poor kobolds, getting their mines collapsed for consorting with evil outsiders, how COULD that meanie Garl do such a thing? [/sarcasm]

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-01, 01:31 AM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.

This is also why I hate gnomes.

Bayar
2010-07-01, 01:32 AM
Well, there was this one time that he collapsed this guy's throne room on him and the arch-devil he was entertaining at the time.

Yep, apparently Kurtulmak wasn't quite so innocent at the time. Garl moreso had issue with the whole "consorting with evil outsiders" than the fact that gnomes were, yknow, being gnomes instead of getting money like the kobolds. The joke Garl ultimately pulled with this is kinda reminiscent of panel seven of this. (http://drmcninja.com/archives/comic/2p32)

Poor, poor kobolds, getting their mines collapsed for consorting with evil outsiders, how COULD that meanie Garl do such a thing? [/sarcasm]

Lesse, was Kurtulmak a god back then ? Did any other kobold get crushed at that time ? Also, kobolds dont horde money for their own gain. They usually offer it to the dragons. And last I checked, metallic dragons horded shinies too, without being killed by bored dieties for it.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 01:47 AM
Given that the only source we have of Kurtulmak's massive injustice is... well, Kurtulmak, history has taught us (or at least me) to assume such accounts are just a tad bit biased and take them with a large grain of salt.

But even if we take Kurtulmak, Grummsh, Lloth, Zarus, Laduguer, Deep Duerra, Maglubiyet, Urdlen, The Dark One etc. all at their word... if we assume that every god that offers the Good domain was a complete bastard to them during their formative years, and that each one reluctantly assumed the mantle of divinity to shepherd their poor disadvantaged peoples to a brighter future of intolerance... In what way does that excuse the atmosphere of racism, infighting and consorting with fiends/chromatics that every single one of them has carefully cultivated within their churches over a period of centuries, and show no signs of wanting to stop?

Coidzor
2010-07-01, 02:03 AM
^: Wait, Zarus consorts with fiends? I thought he was one of those rare evil dudes who refused to engage with them.

Bayer: Never said revering the dragons made 'em evil. It does, however mean that they don't live for themselves and are essentially worthless as a coherent people as a result. Or maybe I just have something against races of slaves. Don't really do anything for me.

Now, worshiping the goddess of adventurers on the other hand...
And as a bonus, Bayer's completely right.

The one I read they gave the guy a choice, either use the collective anguish and souls of his dead people to fully ascend to godhood or die and give them up and have them be given back their lives and home and freedom in complete reparations for what occurred.

Maybe I'm misremembering something here, but, in any case, Gods of Revenge(tm) generally are not Good. Heck, St. Cuthbert was knocked down from Good to Neutral due to being a God of Retribution.

CubeB
2010-07-01, 02:14 AM
Go read about Kurtulmak's ascension in the Races of the Dragon. Garl Glittergold and his no good trope of lazy ass bastards who think that "I just made a joke by commiting genocide over your whole race LOL" is ok and good.

Kobolds are considered evil but Gnomes are ok ?!? WHAT THE **** IS THAT PILE OF FETID HERESY ?!?



Eberron gnomes and whisper gnomes are ok though.

Yeah. Kobolds get a bad rap, but Gnomes are okay?

They should trade places and have Kobolds be a player race while Gnomes live in sewers and serve as low level cannon fodder, but nooooo...

Agrippa
2010-07-01, 02:14 AM
Maybe I'm misremembering something here, but, in any case, Gods of Revenge(tm) generally are not Good. Heck, St. Cuthbert was knocked down from Good to Neutral due to being a God of Retribution.

Only in core. Otherwise he's Lawful Neutral (Good) instead of just Lawful Neutral. Hell, Oerth has Chaotic Good god of retribution and he's the Chaotic equivalent of Heironeus.

Thiyr
2010-07-01, 02:28 AM
Lesse, was Kurtulmak a god back then ?

According to this story, yes.

Or going with the other story where Kurtulmak was trying to kill all the other racial gods by collapsing his hall on them, and Garl showed up while it was being built due to the noise of construction, was impressed by the trap, and after figuring out how it worked, in attempting to see if it worked, sprung the trap before anyone else showed up on Kurtulmak. Either way, the events got Kurtulmak pissed at Garl and all of the gnomes, causing the racial feud...except that Garl really doesn't care about Kurtulmak and mostly just does it because the kobolds started being a threat more than anything.

Note: none of these stories mention anything about Garl caring at all about Kurtulmak's wealth. And, in both of these stories, Kurtulmak -lives through it-. In the arch-devil story, the devil thought it was an assassination attempt and took Kartulmak and hung him by his tail over a volcano for 6 weeks. In the "Kurtulmak wishes to mass-murder the gods" story, he survives it in order to be pissed off at Garl for ruining his plan. So yes, dragons do get to hoard gold and shinies without being killed off by bored deities. So do kobolds.

Edit:


Also, kobolds dont horde money for their own gain. They usually offer it to the dragons.

Not quite. Races of the Dragon has this to say


Kobolds love jewelry, and individuals can be exceedingly particular in their tastes. Such jewelry is often crafted from an exotic array of colored metals, either mined from veins of rare ore or using different minerals smelted together to create new and unique amalgams. Kobolds are more than a little materialistic when it comes to accumulating baubles and trinkets, not unlike dragons and their hoards.

CubeB
2010-07-01, 02:49 AM
See, this is why I prefer Eberron's way of doing things, by having the Deities be abstract rather than "Oh hey guys, I've got STATS!"

If you think about it, in a real life paradigm, it's entirely possible that the legend of Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak's was born from land disputes rather than an actual conflict between deities.

The Gnomes and the Kobolds are both cave dwelling races, and probably competed for resources. The story of Garl and Kurtulmak was probably born from the early conflicts between the two races, with each race demonizing the other's deity in the same way people in reality demonize the religions of their political enemies.

This is also why my DM, (and I, myself, when I run games) upgrade all racial deities like Kurtulmak to the neutral end of the racial scale if a Good Deity of that race doesn't exist. Because that argument makes more sense if the actual dogma of a racial deity isn't always evil...

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-01, 02:55 AM
So, you're going to take the word of a guy who is a self described Trickster God over the word of the guy even he admits he buried in a mine? Okay.

Just thought I'd check. Carry on.

Optimator
2010-07-01, 04:31 AM
I've never hated gnomes. I figure they're hated because of garden gnomes.

wick
2010-07-01, 05:06 AM
I always thought the Gnomish science/inventions were too steam punkish and welll stupid.

There was one Forgotten Realms story (One of the books featuring Harpers) that had a Harper agent working with Gnomes. One of the Gnomes wore Gnomish Badger armor, which was very spikey armor used for you guess what. This was one of the few stories that I hvae read that did not have Jan Jansen-esque, exploding, alchemical gnomes.

Gnomes are not viewed as being serious. You could play them dark and somber but it would seem weird.

When Dming I might have the human lands, the Elvish forest, Dwarvish mountain homes...etc..but I often forget to put the Gnomes anywhere. Interesting enough their presence is not missed.

Orzel
2010-07-01, 05:11 AM
Gnome fill a niche no one care about.
Few hate gnomes. They just have enough hoots to give them after the elves and dwarves get.

Calmar
2010-07-01, 09:43 AM
When I need a short technicus-type character, I play a dwarf who specializes in mechanical skills, or alchemy, and maybe even crafts automatons (and that's heavily setting-dependent).
When I need a short roguish character, I play a halfling.

As a friend of mine put it: "What are gnomes at all??"

hamishspence
2010-07-01, 09:50 AM
D&D gnomes are a bit on the large side. Maybe gnomes as pixies without wings, might tap into the folklore image of gnomes better.

Terry Pratchett did this a couple of times, with "nomes" in the Bromeliad trilogy, and the "pictsies" AKA Nac Mac Feegle, in Discworld.


By your logic Drow should be good and surface Elves evil because Loith's story of her fall differs from the one Corellon tells.

In Faerun, the fall of the drow is not tied to the fall of Lolth- but took place long after.

And the Crown Wars (which had the banishment of the drow part-way through) involved appalling behaviour by both the drow and the sun elves- but it's the dark elves that end up banished, even though it wasn't them who began the war. Even perfectly innocent dark elves were transformed. The sun elves do get some comeuppance, but not nearly as much.

Calintares
2010-07-01, 10:31 AM
I despise gnomes because most of my experience with them are from Arcanum, and there they are bastards.

I also like the way the Giant planned them here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/Y2BEzifZZgrsSdReVf4.html). (as an asside, I'd love to see some progress on that project) but even there, the core aspect of them still are that they exploit others.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-01, 10:50 AM
Wow, being loyal to their dragon ancestors is such an evil trait. So, when all the dragons cut themselves to make a mate and kobolds were born from their blood, did it matter what color the dragon was ? No. Kobolds served the dragons loyally, finding pride in working for them and offered the riches of the earth to them selflessly. For his acts, Kurtulmak, as a mortal, was rewarded with leadership by his dragon parent, to lead his people. He built his own mine, one that had a nearly limitless resources, being happy to work for themselves. Then Garl Glittergold, being the patron god of jerks and fantasy life mini-trolls, got jeleaus on the kobolds growing wealth and their diligence, partially because his race was happy being lazy and pulling pranks on everyone, collapsed the mine over the kobolds killing all but one of them. And do you know what the other gods did ? They said 'That wasn't very nice Garl,but since you said it was a joke, we can forgive you. Oh, and we should just let the kobold corpses rot there and not bother fixing your evil unjustified genocide.'. Not exactly fair to the kobolds, right ? Sure, Io tried to get the other gods to fix it, but they ignored him. So he went to the collapsed mine and found Kurtulmak barely alive. Io's offer was either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

Now, what good deeds did Garl do while leading his race to justify gnomes being good and kobolds evil ?


Thus speaks the twisted hate of kobold apologists. If kobolds lived such selfless lives where, may I ask, are those that descended from, and live to serve, the good dragons? Where is the race of kind kobolds, toiling in the name of Bahamut? They do not exist, because they never have. Kobolds are twisted creatures, convinced of their own innocence, while lashing out all who "oppress" them. They are born of evil, and prostrate themselves before it whenever given the opportunity. That evil can take the form of dragons, dragon-gods, or any profane deity willing to spill its filth upon them.

Those limitless resources that Bayar speaks of... did he mention what they were? Of course not. He does not want you to know that these were the souls of gnomes yet unborn, that his kind stole from Garl Glittergold. The kobolds were aware of this, yet were pleased to steal souls for their dragon overlords. They present Garl's collapse of their tunnels as an assault, but leave out that they struck first, and more grievously, attempting to steal not only the present of the gnomish race, but its very future. Kurtulmak is no "freedom fighter", looking over the oppressed koboldish race... he is a terrorist, a murderer, and a willing rent-boy for any evil deity who shakes a fist... whether it be gloved in steel or dripping a few measly coppers.

Traveler
2010-07-01, 10:52 AM
I'm a kobold fan so... yeah. Gnomes arn't high on my list of races, unless it is on the list of races to sucker punch.

Bayar
2010-07-01, 12:51 PM
Thus speaks the twisted hate of kobold apologists. If kobolds lived such selfless lives where, may I ask, are those that descended from, and live to serve, the good dragons? Where is the race of kind kobolds, toiling in the name of Bahamut? They do not exist, because they never have. Kobolds are twisted creatures, convinced of their own innocence, while lashing out all who "oppress" them. They are born of evil, and prostrate themselves before it whenever given the opportunity. That evil can take the form of dragons, dragon-gods, or any profane deity willing to spill its filth upon them.

Those limitless resources that Bayar speaks of... did he mention what they were? Of course not. He does not want you to know that these were the souls of gnomes yet unborn, that his kind stole from Garl Glittergold. The kobolds were aware of this, yet were pleased to steal souls for their dragon overlords. They present Garl's collapse of their tunnels as an assault, but leave out that they struck first, and more grievously, attempting to steal not only the present of the gnomish race, but its very future. Kurtulmak is no "freedom fighter", looking over the oppressed koboldish race... he is a terrorist, a murderer, and a willing rent-boy for any evil deity who shakes a fist... whether it be gloved in steel or dripping a few measly coppers.

Not that I dont trust you or anything, but care to give an oficial source for this ? Deities and Demigods, Races of Stone, Complete Divine, Monster Manual, Players Handbook...checked these books and couldn't find it.

Oh, and those resources ? Those were metal ores and precious stones. Much more useful and valuable than gnome souls. And those good kobolds ? You forgot, Kurtulmak led all kobolds who joined them, not because he asked, because they wanted to. Garl crushed every kobold inside the mine, regardless of alignment. And kobolds can worship any other draconic god, Bahamut included - I really dont see where this issue came from.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-01, 01:10 PM
Mark Hall; Lol. Just lol. :smallsmile:

On a more serious note, yeah, gnomes main problem always used to be how completely they failed to fill any real place in the world. Solutions that occured to me included leaving them out altogether, or rationalising them as simply what happens when halfling casanova's manage to seduce Mrs Dwarf.

The new edition came along though, demoted them from phb1, and tied them far more in with the fey side of things. It helped quite a bit, for my mind. I don't really mind them so much these days.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-01, 01:31 PM
Not that I dont trust you or anything, but care to give an oficial source for this ? Deities and Demigods, Races of Stone, Complete Divine, Monster Manual, Players Handbook...checked these books and couldn't find it.

Grand History of the Realms.


Oh, and those resources ? Those were metal ores and precious stones. Much more useful and valuable than gnome souls.

Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.


And those good kobolds ? You forgot, Kurtulmak led all kobolds who joined them, not because he asked, because they wanted to.

There were no good kobolds; all thirsted for gnomish souls.


Garl crushed every kobold inside the mine, regardless of alignment. And kobolds can worship any other draconic god, Bahamut included - I really dont see where this issue came from.

Kobolds perhaps CAN, but name a group that DOES.

Once kobolds stop stealing souls, eating babies, and worshiping gods of evil, even the gnomes whom they have so wronged will welcome them. But kobolds will not, because they are steeped in evil.

Telonius
2010-07-01, 01:39 PM
I am a little bit puzzled at the idea that Dwarves fill the master inventor niche. I never really saw Dwarves as much of the inventive type. Master craftsmen, sure. But inventing something totally new? I'm just not seeing it. To me, a dwarf would look at some gnomish contraption and think to himself, "Too complicated, too many things that could go wrong, look at that weak point in the construction! Just give me a good axe, it's proved itself effective over hundreds of years. Leave that newfangled thing to those silly beardless folk."

Yora
2010-07-01, 01:41 PM
I'm just curious. Why it seems that there are many people who dislike them (consider them annoying, ect)? I've read it has something to do with kender (and I even don't what kender is except that they are from Dragonlance)
There is elf-hate, halfling-hate, dwarf-hate... So yeah.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 01:51 PM
the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.


That is... immensely creepy.

Yora
2010-07-01, 01:53 PM
Not more than other creation myths.

Definately NOT more than some other creatin myths! :smalleek:

LibraryOgre
2010-07-01, 01:55 PM
That is... immensely creepy.

Why do you think Raise Dead requires diamond dust? You have to get a soul in there SOMEHOW, and the rest of the races didn't have deities practical enough to make souls into physical objects.

I'll provide citations when I get home; I've got a PF game tonight, though.

Bayar
2010-07-01, 02:06 PM
Grand History of the Realms.

You are bringing setting specific material into a general discussion. In Forgotten Realms, kobolds drew first blood. In Eberron, there is no racial hatered between gnomes and kobolds. Which should people use in an argument ? The middle ground for such things is usually the generic setting.


Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

Should I remind you that humans, dwarves and other races that go mining for riches of the earth probably do the same thing ?

CubeB
2010-07-01, 02:11 PM
Grand History of the Realms.

Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

There were no good kobolds; all thirsted for gnomish souls.

Kobolds perhaps CAN, but name a group that DOES.

Once kobolds stop stealing souls, eating babies, and worshiping gods of evil, even the gnomes whom they have so wronged will welcome them. But kobolds will not, because they are steeped in evil.

Wow... I'm not sure if you're trolling, or if you had a very bad experience with Tucker's Kobolds once.

In any case, there are Kobolds who worship Good and Neutral Gods. The DM In Question just needs to point them out.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 02:13 PM
Personally, I like the Pathfinder gnome fluff a lot, what with their connection to all things fae.
I also want to play a gnome in greasepaint, three fingered white gloves and wielding a large wooden mallet.
Th-Th-Th-Th-Th-... That's all, folks!

Technically Golarion, the world itself, hates gnomes. They have a pathological need to entertain themselves lest they risk a Michael Jackson syndrome.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 02:16 PM
You are bringing setting specific material into a general discussion. In Forgotten Realms, kobolds drew first blood. In Eberron, there is no racial hatered between gnomes and kobolds. Which should people use in an argument ? The middle ground for such things is usually the generic setting.

While that is true, the fact remains that the only account you have that Garl Shot First in Greyhawk is Kurtulmak's own story. Given (a) the track record of evil racial deities, and (b) Kurtulmak's ongoing dogma and associations with fiends, I am inclined to disbelieve his perspective.


In any case, there are Kobolds who worship Good and Neutral Gods. The DM In Question just needs to point them out.

Somehow, I doubt Kurtulmak or his followers would be very tolerant of such Kobolds.

Myatar_Panwar
2010-07-01, 02:22 PM
I've just always viewed gnomes as unnecessary.

I don't hate them per-say, but really the only time I have ever seen someone play a gnome was when they rolled randomly.

Bayar
2010-07-01, 02:30 PM
Somehow, I doubt Kurtulmak or his followers would be very tolerant of such Kobolds.

Races of the Dragon page 48: Kobolds worship Kurtulmak, but individual tribes and kobolds might venerate other draconic deities. See page 149. Among the list, there are 3 good draconic deities, 3 evil and 5 neutral on the good-evil alignment axis. And despite what you might think, kobolds are not all that religiously fanatic. In fact, there is no evidence of religious intolerance whatsoever.


Why do you think Raise Dead requires diamond dust? You have to get a soul in there SOMEHOW, and the rest of the races didn't have deities practical enough to make souls into physical objects.

Yeah, I'm sure that gnome souls are the key ingredient for Symbol of Insanity/Fear/Death/whatever too.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-01, 02:35 PM
You are bringing setting specific material into a general discussion. In Forgotten Realms, kobolds drew first blood. In Eberron, there is no racial hatered between gnomes and kobolds. Which should people use in an argument ? The middle ground for such things is usually the generic setting.

Gods are not confined to one setting; is the Kurtulmak of the "generic" setting a different being from that of the Realms? Even the generic setting material, when not being written from a kobold points of view, puts much of the onus for the problems that the feat of Kurtulmak, due to his jealousy of Garl (q.v. Deities and Demigods).


Should I remind you that humans, dwarves and other races that go mining for riches of the earth probably do the same thing ?

They don't do so out of a lust for gnomish souls, however.

AmberVael
2010-07-01, 02:36 PM
I hate gnomes because they are short, chubby, and puntable.
It should be noted that I hate halflings for the same reason (except maybe not chubby.)
Dwarves teeter in the same category (they're also hairy, which I dislike), but sometimes manage to escape, when they're not drink loving, scottish accented, or humor characters.

Kobolds, however, are weird little reptile dog things. Long live kobolds.


Yeah, I'm sure that gnome souls are the key ingredient for Symbol of Insanity/Fear/Death/whatever too.
This would explain so much.
Driving you insane? Sounds gnomish to me.
Making you freak out when they activate that deadly trap just for the hell of it? Also gnomish.
Managing to kill you with that explosion? Yeah.

Bayar
2010-07-01, 02:47 PM
Gods are not confined to one setting; is the Kurtulmak of the "generic" setting a different being from that of the Realms? Even the generic setting material, when not being written from a kobold points of view, puts much of the onus for the problems that the feat of Kurtulmak, due to his jealousy of Garl (q.v. Deities and Demigods).

Actually, it was more of a pride thing. You know, for being crushed by a collapsed ceiling on the pretext of a joke...

Not from the point of view of a kobold: Player's handbook describing Garl collapsing the cavern of Kurtulmak as a joke; Deities and Demigods: same thing; Races of Stone: see Player's handbook. None of these say "It was for a just cause", more akin to "It was for the lolz". I'd be pissed off too if someone would collapse a wall over me just so he can say it was a joke, dont care about your broken shoulder.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-01, 02:50 PM
Races of the Dragon page 48: Kobolds worship Kurtulmak, but individual tribes and kobolds might venerate other draconic deities. See page 149. Among the list, there are 3 good draconic deities, 3 evil and 5 neutral on the good-evil alignment axis. And despite what you might think, kobolds are not all that religiously fanatic. In fact, there is no evidence of religious intolerance whatsoever.

Deities and Demigods page 80 summarizes much of this... such as "No kobold community is complete without a shrine to Kurtulmak." And, while Races of the Dragon talks about the unending hatred between gnome and kobold... the gnome entry in Races of Stone barely mentions kobolds, even when talking about war... I found one in a quick scan, and it was about battling kobold raiders as a duty of Garl's priesthood. Deities and Demigods, incidentally, makes it clear that raiding gnomes is the duty of a priest of Kurtulmak.

The evidence is fairly strong that Kurtulmak and Garl's relationship has more to do with "SWF (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105414/)" than a mutual hatred.

Kylarra
2010-07-01, 02:50 PM
^: Wait, Zarus consorts with fiends? I thought he was one of those rare evil dudes who refused to engage with them.
Only from a position of superiority. ALL HAIL LORD ZARUS

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 02:54 PM
Races of the Dragon page 48: Kobolds worship Kurtulmak, but individual tribes and kobolds might venerate other draconic deities. See page 149. Among the list, there are 3 good draconic deities, 3 evil and 5 neutral on the good-evil alignment axis.

The fact that there are good dragon deities in the draconic pantheon does not mean that Kobolds worship any of them.

In fact, the three good dragon deities you mention (I assume you mean Bahamut, Hlal and Tamara?) only count Dragons among their faithful, NOT dragonbloods as some of the others do.

So you're going to need a little more evidence than that.


And despite what you might think, kobolds are not all that religiously fanatic. In fact, there is no evidence of religious intolerance whatsoever.

From page 40:

"While gnomes and halflings often integrate into other races’ societies, kobolds turn inward. The kobold deity Kurtulmak (see page 48) doesn’t allow such fraternization."

Also, from page 49:

"Kurtulmak’s herald is a fiendish kobold 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorcerer/10th-level mystic theurge. His allies are horned devils, pit fiends, and salamanders."

That last reminds me of a certain trope, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking) too.

LibraryOgre
2010-07-01, 03:00 PM
Oh, and kobolds? Usually LE. Gnomes? Usually NG.

Agrippa
2010-07-01, 03:03 PM
"Kurtulmak’s herald is a fiendish kobold 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorcerer/10th-level mystic theurge. His allies are horned devils, pit fiends, and salamanders."

That last reminds me of a certain trope, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking) too.

You mean these salamanders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/salamander.htm)?

Knaight
2010-07-01, 03:07 PM
I've just always viewed gnomes as unnecessary.

I don't hate them per-say, but really the only time I have ever seen someone play a gnome was when they rolled randomly.

I feel that way about every race that isn't a human.

Thiyr
2010-07-01, 03:08 PM
Actually, it was more of a pride thing. You know, for being crushed by a collapsed ceiling on the pretext of a joke...

Not from the point of view of a kobold: Player's handbook describing Garl collapsing the cavern of Kurtulmak as a joke; Deities and Demigods: same thing; Races of Stone: see Player's handbook. None of these say "It was for a just cause", more akin to "It was for the lolz". I'd be pissed off too if someone would collapse a wall over me just so he can say it was a joke, dont care about your broken shoulder.

Also, the two stories I quoted, from Dragon 61 and 332 respectively, don't have the colapse as a joke. First one is as a just reward for that whole "evil outsiders" bit. The second one is a joke...that Kurtulmak was trying to pull, which backfired. It very well likely is a pride thing, agreed there. But not because it was a joke. Kurtulmak seems more to have that Scooby-Doo "If it weren't for that meddling Garl, and those GNOMES." If anything, having Kurtulmak react like that is the joke.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 03:09 PM
I feel that way about every race that isn't a human.

Speciecist :p

Coidzor
2010-07-01, 03:12 PM
Again, your ignorance... the souls of gnomes are gemstones. Svirfneblin are diamonds. Rock gnomes are sapphires. Forest gnomes are emeralds.

So... That's where all that thinuan stuff originated from...

Eldariel
2010-07-01, 03:16 PM
I feel that way about every race that isn't a human.

Why do you consider Humans necessary? I never liked their presence in fantasy worlds.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 03:20 PM
You mean these salamanders (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/salamander.htm)?

It's a long step from creatures that are usually evil (salamanders) to the ones that are made of evil (devils.)

I just found it funny because they were tacked on almost as an afterthought.


Why do you consider Humans necessary? I never liked their presence in fantasy worlds.

Funny, I say the same thing about elves. :smallwink:

Bayar
2010-07-01, 03:22 PM
The fact that there are good dragon deities in the draconic pantheon does not mean that Kobolds worship any of them.

In fact, the three good dragon deities you mention (I assume you mean Bahamut, Hlal and Tamara?) only count Dragons among their faithful, NOT dragonbloods as some of the others do.

So you're going to need a little more evidence than that.

Please read the introductory paragraph of that appendix. Carefully this time. And that paragraph on page 48



From page 40:

"While gnomes and halflings often integrate into other races’ societies, kobolds turn inward. The kobold deity Kurtulmak (see page 48) doesn’t allow such fraternization."

Also, from page 49:

"Kurtulmak’s herald is a fiendish kobold 5th-level cleric/5th-level sorcerer/10th-level mystic theurge. His allies are horned devils, pit fiends, and salamanders."

That last reminds me of a certain trope, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking) too.

The first part does not forbid an individual kobold or a tribe of kobolds to worship any other draconic deity. When the rest of society shows goodness towards kobolds, call me. Until then, I dont see a problem in contracting devils.


Oh, and kobolds? Usually LE. Gnomes? Usually NG.

Yes, and having humans as allies and big brothers might help you there. By the way, notice how most of the races at look simmilar to humans are tending towards the good scale, while those that look less as a human towards the evi scale ? (the humanoid ones at least).

Knaight
2010-07-01, 03:24 PM
Why do you consider Humans necessary? I never liked their presence in fantasy worlds.

Because they kind of have to show up in some genres. They certainly aren't always necessary.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 03:25 PM
Because they kind of have to show up in some genres. They certainly aren't always necessary.

They don't have to. As long as the viewers can identify with the setting, it is good. Humans are just the easiest for that.

Eldariel
2010-07-01, 03:29 PM
Funny, I say the same thing about elves. :smallwink:

Psh, everything is better with Elves! What's not to like about a race of pseudo-immortal mystical fey?


Because they kind of have to show up in some genres. They certainly aren't always necessary.

I find worlds feel much more...fantastic without Humans. As such, when playing fantasy in particular, I feel Humans detract more from the experience than they add. What genres did you have in mind?

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 03:31 PM
Please read the introductory paragraph of that appendix. Carefully this time. And that paragraph on page 48.

Please reread the "Worshipers" bar under each of the three good draconic deities. And there's really no need to be snarky.


The first part does not forbid an individual kobold or a tribe of kobolds to worship any other draconic deity. When the rest of society shows goodness towards kobolds, call me. Until then, I dont see a problem in contracting devils.

If you don't see a problem with working with devils (really?), then our definitions of morality differ far too heavily for any meaningful discussion.


Yes, and having humans as allies and big brothers might help you there. By the way, notice how most of the races at look simmilar to humans are tending towards the good scale, while those that look less as a human towards the evi scale ? (the humanoid ones at least).

Zarus is more humanlike than all the rest combined - by your logic then, he shouldn't be Evil. (And he isn't, according to him.)

okpokalypse
2010-07-01, 03:32 PM
Gnomes are the hobos of fantasy. OK joking aside I think "most" gamers dislike gnomes because they are always played the same way. Now I know what I just wrote will spew forth several dozen posts about wait I played my gnome like this or like this, I don't care. 99% of the time any given gnome in an RPG is role played in one of the same half dozen ways, it's just been done to death. It's like the character who becomes a hero do to his/her/its beloved peasant village being destroyed, let it go, move on, find another shtick.

Anti-Gnomite!

Coidzor
2010-07-01, 03:32 PM
I hate gnomes because they are short, chubby, and puntable.
It should be noted that I hate halflings for the same reason (except maybe not chubby.)
Dwarves teeter in the same category (they're also hairy, which I dislike), but sometimes manage to escape, when they're not drink loving, scottish accented, or humor characters.

So... you hate human males and indeed, most mammals? And have some especial hate for the scottish? :smallconfused:


The first part does not forbid an individual kobold or a tribe of kobolds to worship any other draconic deity. When the rest of society shows goodness towards kobolds, call me. Until then, I dont see a problem in contracting devils.


So... you fail to see being evil and doing evil things as something that would alienate non-evil factions? Or hell, even evil factions that know that dealing with fiends is a mug's game that just gets you involved in the blood war.

Knaight
2010-07-01, 03:37 PM
I find worlds feel much more...fantastic without Humans. As such, when playing fantasy in particular, I feel Humans detract more from the experience than they add. What genres did you have in mind?
Low Fantasy and Sword and Sorcery come to mind, sticking within the fantasy genre. Space Opera as well.

BlueWizard
2010-07-01, 03:53 PM
I know players who love the gnome.

AmberVael
2010-07-01, 04:12 PM
So... you hate human males and indeed, most mammals? And have some especial hate for the scottish? :smallconfused:
Side tangent!
I don't mind the Scottish, but a Scottish accent is a particular Dwarven gimmick that is really, really annoying (because it is a gimmick, and usually just a gimmick. It doesn't add anything and tends to just grate on my nerves).

Excessive amounts of hair is also something I dislike. A standard human of either gender can be okay, but when they have things like really thick and gigantic beards or long body hair, I get icked out.
As such, as Dwarves feature this practically as a racial trait, which is why I dislike them as a whole. It is not, however, a shared feature by all human men. There is a significant portion who do not fit the category of "overly hairy."

The thing about dwarves is that they are unusually short, hairy, and tend to be surrounded by gimmicks. None of these things fit my preferred style whatsoever, and so I tend to dislike the whole race. By contrast, an old bearded wizard (or just a bearded wizard, I guess- it's just that "old and bearded" seems to be the standard fantasy thing) can get away with his beard without much comment on my part, because it is just one thing. With dwarves, it's one thing on top of many other things, which ends up being too much for me.

And yes, there are lots of mammals that I consider to have excessive amounts of hair. Of course, some have coats of fur, which is an entirely different matter... but I wouldn't necessarily consider it pretty. It's just no longer disgusting. Like, a dog is okay, because it is furry. An ape or monkey is generally not, because they are hairy.


Just to sum up though, and put it in perspective, I don't really care if other people want to play with these things. I know it's all my personal preference. And heck, even that has been broken a few times. I liked the hobbits in LotR. I've played a few dwarves myself, and seen others that I liked. There've even been some pretty nifty gnomes.

Generally though, I'd just as soon punt them all out the window and play with something else.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-01, 04:19 PM
In Faerun, the fall of the drow is not tied to the fall of Lolth- but took place long after.

And the Crown Wars (which had the banishment of the drow part-way through) involved appalling behaviour by both the drow and the sun elves- but it's the dark elves that end up banished, even though it wasn't them who began the war. Even perfectly innocent dark elves were transformed. The sun elves do get some comeuppance, but not nearly as much.

I was pointing out that taking Kurtulmak side of the story as the truth was fool hardy when I referenced Lolth I was speaking of her fall in the 'default' setting. Both she and Kurtulmak appear outside of the Forgotten realms.

Skeppio
2010-07-01, 07:18 PM
By the way, notice how most of the races at look simmilar to humans are tending towards the good scale, while those that look less as a human towards the evi scale ? (the humanoid ones at least).

This is my pet peeve with pretty much all fiction. All the "good" races are just humans with some minor changes. As in, elves are thin humans with pointy ears, dwarves are short bulky humans, gnomes are just tiny humans and so on.

And all the interesting creatures have massive LA and RHD grumble grumble....

Grumman
2010-07-01, 07:33 PM
I have no problems with gnomes. Some gnome players suck, but they're the ones that think gnomes and halflings are kender.


I know players who love the gnome.
Not that there's anything wrong about that.

Eldariel
2010-07-01, 07:54 PM
This is my pet peeve with pretty much all fiction. All the "good" races are just humans with some minor changes. As in, elves are thin humans with pointy ears, dwarves are short bulky humans, gnomes are just tiny humans and so on.

I don't really know; I mean, on physical appearance that's true but then, Elves are immortal natural spirits of sorts, Dwarves are basically semi-Earth Elementals and so on. The resemblances in more classical fantasy tends to be limited to looks.

If it really bothers you, give them different looks. I feel there's enough variety in their relation to the world and psyché and outlook to make them feel very distinct from Humans. If anything, I'd be complaining about most Evil humanoids; while not very Human-like in looks (different skin color), they tend to be very (primitive) Human-like in behavior and lifespan and so on.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-01, 08:43 PM
Also, the two stories I quoted, from Dragon 61 and 332 respectively, don't have the colapse as a joke. First one is as a just reward for that whole "evil outsiders" bit. The second one is a joke...that Kurtulmak was trying to pull, which backfired. It very well likely is a pride thing, agreed there. But not because it was a joke. Kurtulmak seems more to have that Scooby-Doo "If it weren't for that meddling Garl, and those GNOMES." If anything, having Kurtulmak react like that is the joke.

Yeah, but Dragon isn't really all that prominent in D&D. It's on the edge of being 3rd party, whereas the PHB said that it was a joke by Garl. Plus, Kurtulmak has no sense of humor, so he wouldn't pull a joke himself.

Garl should surely have an evil point. Probably a chaotic evil point. xD

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-01, 09:15 PM
Re: Kurtulmak telling jokes...
Yeah, I mean he's explicitely not got a sense of humour even.

Another one that amuses me is the idea that Asmodeus would (even if he could) turn up to say hi (in person, no less) to some old Kobold, ascended or otherwise.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-01, 09:21 PM
Re: Kurtulmak telling jokes...
Yeah, I mean he's explicitely not got a sense of humour even.

Another one that amuses me is the idea that Asmodeus would (even if he could) turn up to say hi (in person, no less) to some old Kobold, ascended or otherwise.
I'm sure Asmodeus is invited to all the best evil parties, besides if it was for Kurtulmak to tell Asmodeus of his plans to collapse the cavern ontop of the other racial deities he might show up.
Which also handily ties two versions of the story together.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 09:22 PM
Yeah, but Dragon isn't really all that prominent in D&D. It's on the edge of being 3rd party, whereas the PHB said that it was a joke by Garl. Plus, Kurtulmak has no sense of humor, so he wouldn't pull a joke himself.

Garl should surely have an evil point. Probably a chaotic evil point. xD

This might be jumping the gun a bit.

"Garl once collapsed the cavern of Kurtulmak, the god of the kobolds. Since then, the two deities have been sworn enemies."

The passage before that mentions he plays pranks on other deities, but nowhere does it actually say that collapsing the cavern on Kurtulmak was one of those pranks. In fact, it doesn't go into his motives for doing so at all.

Serpentine
2010-07-01, 10:28 PM
I am a little bit puzzled at the idea that Dwarves fill the master inventor niche. I never really saw Dwarves as much of the inventive type. Master craftsmen, sure. But inventing something totally new? I'm just not seeing it. To me, a dwarf would look at some gnomish contraption and think to himself, "Too complicated, too many things that could go wrong, look at that weak point in the construction! Just give me a good axe, it's proved itself effective over hundreds of years. Leave that newfangled thing to those silly beardless folk."Real-world myth. Particularly/specifically Viking, I believe. They were the inventers and artisans of the world. Linkisourcey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_Dwarves#Magic_and_technology).

I like gnomes and kobolds... Even had kobolds kidnap the party's gnome for a solo adventure (when the player couldn't come to the actual game) once. It went pretty well, though would've gone better if I'd thought to check how many of her spells required material components.
But... Well, I suppose in my world I'm a lot more flexible with my racial alignments, and individual myths aren't usually very important.

Oh yeah, and I hate that Good is Beautiful and Evil is Ugly almost always (see: D&D3.5 nagas, real-life angel myth).

Lhurgyof
2010-07-01, 11:18 PM
This might be jumping the gun a bit.

"Garl once collapsed the cavern of Kurtulmak, the god of the kobolds. Since then, the two deities have been sworn enemies."

The passage before that mentions he plays pranks on other deities, but nowhere does it actually say that collapsing the cavern on Kurtulmak was one of those pranks. In fact, it doesn't go into his motives for doing so at all.

Ah, someone said something about it being in the PHB.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 11:20 PM
Ah, someone said something about it being in the PHB.

Yes, that's where the quote in my post came from.

It's possible the description of him playing pranks on the gods might be connected to what he did to Kurtulmak, but I read it more as a way of bringing up why Kobolds and Gnomes hate each other so much in core. It doesn't provide any perspective into Garl's motives for causing the collapse.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-07-01, 11:21 PM
I personally think gnomes are pretty cool. Especially gnome rogues. I had a friend who, in her campaign world, halflings didn't exist because she felt the gnomes had the "short person" niche filled perfectly. However, she did change them a bit. You had "angry gnomes" and "crazy gnomes." The angry ones were ill-tempered and scrappy, while the crazy ones were just wierd, some flipping their lips constantly or being obsessed with eating socks.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-01, 11:30 PM
Gnomes are cool. -2 STR, +2 Con with Small size is great for several classes. They get 4 spell-like abilities which improve their versatility a lot at low levels along with +1 DC to Illusion spells.


Gnomes also have lots of different variants that improve their versatility.

The Whisper Gnome is a very popular favorite, although they sacrifice some of their spellcasting boosts.

Chaos Gnomes are a great +1 LA race that get a lot of nice benefits if you're in a campaign with an LA buy-off. +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +1 Caster level on Chaos Spells, a reroll 1/day, and 5 spell like abilities are great.

Forest Gnomes get Pass without a Trace at-will, +4 to hide and another +4 in forest areas

Lesser Deep Gnomes are amazing too. They keep all the gnome's advantages (except trading +2 Con for +2 Dex) and get a bunch of new bonus traits.

My favorite gnomish subrace are the Arcane Gnomes from Dragon Magazine 291 (pg 34).

They have the same features as the standard gnome, except:

+2 Int, -2 Wis (in addition to -2 Str, +2 Con)
Use Magic Device is always a class skill
they lose the Speak with Animals ability
have Wizard as their favored class


...except they were written for 3.0 gnomes.

...and thankfully they aren't as annoying as Tinker Gnomes from Dragonlance.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-02, 01:43 AM
Do you know why whisper gnomes are considered one of the best non-la races? because they should have an LA.

hamishspence
2010-07-02, 02:47 AM
Oh, and kobolds? Usually LE. Gnomes? Usually NG.

Ironically, Races of Stone's community tables show that significantly less than 50% of Gnome communities are dominated by a NG power centre.

Unlike most Usually X races.

Races of the Dragon's community tables, show that while a large proportion of kobold community power centres are LE, some are Neutral or Good.

Shatteredtower
2010-07-03, 01:50 AM
A disfavourable view of gnomes often comes from the same place as a common reaction to online April Fool's Day events. Both tend to wind up in the hands of people ill-prepared for the antics they unleash on that group of people who resent what they see as disruptive behavior -- and whose usual response to that reaction is to redouble their efforts without improving on them. It sometimes carries lots of desperation in its wake, especially if no one else signed on for constant pranking.

On another note, thanks to the kobold apologists, I keep imagining Kurtulmak in the role Michael Douglas played in "Fallig Down".

Prodan
2010-07-03, 01:57 AM
It's really no wonder that people look down on gnomes; the race is forever coming up short and this inability to rise to player's expectations really leaves them behind compared to other, better races.

I don't mean to belittle them, but the shortcomings really do prevent me from ranking them higher; perhaps I'm just small minded, but they seem to be rather underwhelming.

jguy
2010-07-03, 02:02 AM
Hail Zarus!

Alex Knight
2010-07-03, 04:19 AM
I hate gnomes because they are evil and behind all the conspiracies that run the world! Have you not ever heard of the GNOMES of Zurich? :smallwink:

Besides, Gnomes should be reserved for Gnomeball, which is like Football, except you use a gnome instead.

Eldan
2010-07-03, 06:14 AM
What? Why Zurich? There are no gnomes here, there have never been any gnomes here, and they are certainly not running the swiss, english and american banking system from the underground fortresses they bought from the swiss army after the cold war ended.

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-03, 06:47 AM
A disfavourable view of gnomes often comes from the same place as a common reaction to online April Fool's Day events. Both tend to wind up in the hands of people ill-prepared for the antics they unleash on that group of people who resent what they see as disruptive behavior -- and whose usual response to that reaction is to redouble their efforts without improving on them. It sometimes carries lots of desperation in its wake, especially if no one else signed on for constant pranking.

On another note, thanks to the kobold apologists, I keep imagining Kurtulmak in the role Michael Douglas played in "Fallig Down".

I don't remember the film well, but from what I do remember, I approve of and am amused by the idea. :smallsmile:

Serpentine
2010-07-03, 08:35 AM
It's really no wonder that people look down on gnomes; the race is forever coming up short and this inability to rise to player's expectations really leaves them behind compared to other, better races.

I don't mean to belittle them, but the shortcomings really do prevent me from ranking them higher; perhaps I'm just small minded, but they seem to be rather underwhelming.Is that some kind of short joke?!

senrath
2010-07-03, 08:41 AM
Is that some kind of short joke?!

Nah, the joke was a pretty good length.

Serpentine
2010-07-03, 08:48 AM
Oh, yeah. Missed a little bit.

Zeful
2010-07-03, 11:13 PM
As a world-builder, their race has no defined niche with which to give them any thought over other races. If I include them they live in a Hobbit like society conquered by either Dwarves or humans.

Malificus
2010-07-04, 12:00 AM
As a world-builder, their race has no defined niche with which to give them any thought over other races. If I include them they live in a Hobbit like society conquered by either Dwarves or humans.

I ended up making mine Illuminati. Almost all 200 or so of them live in, and control, the capital of one of the countries from behind the scenes. I say there's almost as many halflings as there are humans, but I keep forgetting to throw any in. So my gnomes have a strong niche, but I keep forgetting about halflings.

Roderick_BR
2010-07-04, 01:41 AM
I don't mind gnomes now as they are in 4E, where they were made into Fey to differentiate them from dwarves. But before, they were basically "dwarves lite," except that they were more adept at magic, drank a bit less and were more greedy.

Kender are a whole other ball of wax. Kender are thieving little magpies whose habit of "borrowing" other peoples' stuff is justified because their great curiousity. It's not that kender's fault he took your magic ring — he's just being curious!
On the other hand, you can convince him to trade back the magic ring for a spoon, if the spoon look real shinny and cool.

Superglucose
2010-07-04, 01:46 AM
I'm just curious. Why it seems that there are many people who dislike them (consider them annoying, ect)? I've read it has something to do with kender (and I even don't what kender is except that they are from Dragonlance)
I do like gnomes myself, and I haven't a clue what you're talking about. At first I thought maybe you were talking about them being a subop race, but since they're the keystone of the shadowcraft build, that can't be. Plus I see nothing mechanically wrong with them... maybe their abilities aren't as nice as a feat and a skill point of a human, but they're pretty close imo.

Then maybe about fluff? But I dunno... gnomes have always been tinkerers in the games I've played. And since I (and my friends) are exceptionally nerdy when it comes to engineering, the "tech advanced" race was always the cool race... and always gnomes. Always the gnomes with their stupidly ingenious alchemy launching tubes, or their cannons with wheels on them (I had to carry mine around!) or their clanks.

So I guess I have to say, I haven't a clue what you're talking about

Lord Raziere
2010-07-04, 01:49 AM
I love gnomes! They're cool making good cunning bards and resourceful warlords and being all around the tricksters, I almost feel as if I have a deep, personal connection to them, as if on the inside I am a gnome!

and yes none of that was ironic, and yes I realize I just walked into this thread saying all that, completely bright and sunny about it while everyone else is saying about how much they suck.

and I'm proud of it.

Alex Knight
2010-07-04, 03:58 AM
What? Why Zurich? There are no gnomes here, there have never been any gnomes here, and they are certainly not running the swiss, english and american banking system from the underground fortresses they bought from the swiss army after the cold war ended.

That's just what I'd expect a Gnome to say. I'll just have to bring out my gnomicidal fumigants!

Eldan
2010-07-04, 05:50 AM
I ended up making mine Illuminati. Almost all 200 or so of them live in, and control, the capital of one of the countries from behind the scenes. I say there's almost as many halflings as there are humans, but I keep forgetting to throw any in. So my gnomes have a strong niche, but I keep forgetting about halflings.

Mine are called the Faceless. No one knows where they live, exactly. They have mastered illusion magic to a degree that they veil their faces constantly when in open contact with the other races. However, most of the time, they are disguised and hidden, and it is suspected that they control a lot of the world's governments and manipulate them.

Otogi
2010-07-04, 06:11 AM
Awh, they just be hatin', G...nomes.

Bayar
2010-07-04, 06:47 AM
Awh, they just be hatin', G...nomes.

This inspired my next Eberron gnome artificier concept. A gnome who wants to manipulate the genomes.

FelixG
2010-07-04, 02:43 PM
I would just like to ask, where is it said that their history of events was passed down directly from Kurtulmak?

I just read through the entry again and it says this:

"Io gave Kurtulmak a choice. He would either empower
Kurtulmak with the strength to rebuild the mine, or he
would make the mighty kobold a champion of his people
for all eternity. In this latter case, the loss of Darastrixhurthi
would remain, but the memory of what happened would
endure in the minds of kobolds forever, ensuring that atrocities
of this magnitude would never be overlooked again."

Races of dragon page 51

From this i would gather that it is IO himself that placed the memory in the minds of kobolds, not having it passed down from Kurtulmak

I would believe the word of an overgod rather than a trickster god any day :P

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 03:11 PM
Where is it said its passed down from Io? no where. The story is listed under LEGENDS not history and is said to be recorded by Kobolds. *Kobolds record their histories in writing* Kurtulmak being a mortal who ascended to be a deity is also listed under mythic origins.

So by reading the previous page you can see why most of us think the story is handed down by Kurtulmak.

I'll take the story handed down by Gnomes over the one told by the lawful evil race anyday. Also Io the ninefold dragon is an Intermediate Deity, Your thinking of Ao the overfather from the Forgotten Realms. World of difference.

hamishspence
2010-07-04, 03:20 PM
Grand History of the Realms.

There were no good kobolds; all thirsted for gnomish souls.



Its worth remembering, that even in the Grand History of the Realms account, while the gems were gnome souls, the kobolds "neither knew nor cared"

So they did not know that those particular gems were actually souls.

The Grand History of the Realms extract was from Myth Drannor- so it may be elven history recordings, rather than mythology- and it has Kurtulmak as a mortal ascended to deity, and all the details are similar, except Garl's reason for collapsing the cave (it also has the first Rage of Dragons occur at the same time.)

Biggest difference is that rather than Io, it's the primordial Asgorath the World-Shaper, that raises up Kurtulmak.

erikun
2010-07-04, 03:30 PM
From this i would gather that it is IO himself that placed the memory in the minds of kobolds, not having it passed down from Kurtulmak
Well, first, this is history as written by Kurtulmak himself. It is about as believable that Io supports the kobolds and that Garl collapsed the tunnel out of malevolence - that is, not supported outside of how Kurtulmak himself tells the tales.

Second, even if it is true, only the memory of the loss of Darastrixhurthi remained with the kobolds. None of the actions leading up to it do. I don't think anyone was wondering if Darastrixhurthi collapsed or not; the question is how any why. And for that, we are relying only on Kurtulmak's version of the story.

And as mentioned before, Io is not Ao the Overdeity.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 03:53 PM
Here's how I see the history and it nicely ties all three versions of the story together into one, as they may all be true in there own way. Everything written below is taken from the three stories and tied together into a single myth.

Kurtulmak had a wicked plan for a grand prank, he built his mighty mine with the intention of inviting all the racial deities to a big party where he'd collapse it on their heads. So he rigged it with a keystone designed to do just that when pulled.

Though he did not ask for any help other Kobolds joined him in his construction not knowing what Kurtulmak intended. When finally finished he found Garl snooping around. The gnome god was curious as to what Kurtulmak was up to. Kurtulmak ambushed Garl and bound him, but the god of gnomes simply let himself be captured to see what Kurtulmak was up to.

Kurtulmak invited Asmodeus to a feast to tell the lord of the ninth of his grand plan. It was during this that Garl slipped free and found the keystone. Garl curious to see if this feat of Kobold engineering would work pulled the stone collapsing the entire cavern on the heads of Kurtulmak and Asmodeus.

Garl left quickly forgetting anything about the incident

The furious Lord of Hell believed Kurtulmak had intended that all along and suspended the kobold deity by the tail over a volcano for a week. Io the Ninefold dragon took pity on more Kurtulmak and offered him a choice.
He could restore his grand mine or make him a champion, a god for his people.

Kurtulmak chose to ascend, his grand plan was ruined, their was no salvaging it. But as the god of his kind he could carry on his feud with Garl forever.

This unoffical 4th version of the story uses elements of three versions of the story of Kurtulmak's mine. First it shows that Kurtulmak's plan was after all a prank. If he survived the mine collapsing on his head obviously the racial deities would to. It shows that Garl really didn't care he just pulled the stone to see if it would work.

Most importantly the story makes it possible for Garl to be good and Kurtulmak to be the evil one. Now from Kurtulmak's point of view Garl ruined a prank he worked for years and years on, got him suspended over a volcano for a week. The fact Kurtulmak never asked for help in building his great work can show he didn't care about his fellow kobolds until he was given the chance to be their god.

Then again the entire story of the mine could myth. Kurtulmak was always a deity and his an Garl's rivalry has been forgotten by both parties. One side made up the story as justification, and the other side not wanting to look stupid for forgetting what started it made up their own side of the story.

Which given Garl and Kurtulmak's respective personalities. Might actually be the true story.

GreatWyrmGold
2010-08-09, 07:35 AM
Kenders = short, annoying, kleptomaniacs.

Kenders=halflings. Tas meets gnomes; kender are not gnomes.

I think it's well covered here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/9hktFVfS2ZaHiPsj21F.html)