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Protecar
2010-06-30, 10:43 PM
Title says it all--I'm running a Psion 13//Factotum 8/Cloistered Cleric 1/Chameleon 4 in a gestalt campaign and I'm looking for a way to bump my ML. More specifically, I want to boost the save DCs of my powers. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

All 3.5 books are available. No Magazine, 3rd party, or homebrew.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 10:47 PM
Due to psionics-magic transparency, anything that boosts caster level (e.g. orange ioun stones) will work with ML.

Overchannel will also work - with the Talented feat, you won't take damage for overchanneling powers below 3rd level.

Please note, however, that only augmentation will increase the save DCs of your powers - Overchanneling and using +CL items will only raise the cap, you will have to spend the extra PP to get the DC raised.

Protecar
2010-06-30, 10:52 PM
I have to spend the PP to boost the DC? How does that work? Sorry, I'm not too familiar with psionics: this is my first try making one.

lsfreak
2010-06-30, 10:56 PM
I have to spend the PP to boost the DC? How does that work? Sorry, I'm not too familiar with psionics: this is my first try making one.

Higher CL/ML never increase save DC's. Save DC's are 10 + level of the spell/power (not CL) + primary stat bonus. With psionics, you can also boost the save DC by spending additional PP on the power, if that's one of the listed augments.

Orange ioun stone and the spell Create Magic Tattoo (2nd level, SpC) both increase CL by one. Ring of Arcane Might *might* increase your psionics CL, but probably not. Beads of Karma would, though it's of limited durations. For directly boosting the DC, you've got Int-increasing items.

Optimystik
2010-06-30, 10:58 PM
I have to spend the PP to boost the DC? How does that work? Sorry, I'm not too familiar with psionics: this is my first try making one.

It's not that different from magic. Just as with spells, the save DC of a power is 10 + power level (1 through 9 usually) + your key ability modifier.

Where psionics differs is augmentation: many powers that can be augmented (e.g. Energy Burst or Crisis of Breath) carry an additional line as follows:

"For every X power points you spend, the save DC of this power increases by 1." (X is usually 2, because that would function like an increase in the power level - e.g. a first-level power would cost 1 PP, adding 2 PP to that makes it cost 3, which is the equivalent of a second-level power.)

Your ML thus does not actually factor into the save DC of a power, any more than your CL factors into the save DC of a spell if you were a caster. But increasing your ML benefits the save DC of your powers indirectly, because it allows you to spend more power points on each manifestation; for certain powers, this will add to the save DC.

Protecar
2010-06-30, 11:03 PM
Ah okay. Thanks guys, I dropped that ball. I was looking at dispel checks and got confused as to how a normal save would work. Haha. :smallredface:

Any further advice for my character? I've gotten a decent amount of powers chosen now but I could probably use a few more item choices/power choices.

Zaq
2010-06-30, 11:10 PM
You're a full caster (manifester, whatever), so you want to go first. Initiative boosting items are great.

When choosing powers, ask yourself, "will I use this every day?" If the answer is no, think really hard before taking it. You are your powers, so make them count.

Just as a general rule: just because you can augment to full power does not automatically mean you should. There's a lot of ground between "base manifestation" and "FULL AUGMENT GO GO GO!"

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-30, 11:19 PM
This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level) is a good place to start. Anything that increases caster level without specifying arcane or divine/a school of magic/certain other spell-only characteristics will work for ML too. Make sure to look into the entries on that list; some have restrictions that aren't apparent by their descriptions in that thread.

Protecar
2010-06-30, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the help all!

Are there any offensive powers with PR: no and no saves? (I would like at least one spell like this because I suspect my DM will throw a psion killer at us at some point)

Keld Denar
2010-06-30, 11:57 PM
How would a Torc of Power Preservation work? If my ML was 5, and I have a Torc, can I manifest a power for 6, which the Torc reduces to 5, and thus is equal to or less than my ML? Or can I still only manifest a power for 5, which the Torc then reduces to 4, saving me an extra PP to use late?

I'm inclined to believe its the later, but the former would be really nice.


Are there any offensive powers with PR: no and no saves? (I would like at least one spell like this because I suspect my DM will throw a psion killer at us at some point)

Check out the Metacreativity powers. Any of the "Crystal X" spells are PR:No, and most don't have saves, IIRC.

Such powers include crystal shard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm) (EPH89), hail of crystals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hailofCrystals.htm), (EPH 111), swarm of crystals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) (EPH 134), burrowing bonds (CPsi 79), and crystalstorm (CPsi 81).


These are all

Zaq
2010-07-01, 12:00 AM
Thanks for the help all!

Are there any offensive powers with PR: no and no saves? (I would like at least one spell like this because I suspect my DM will throw a psion killer at us at some point)

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm) That's as useful at level 20 as it is as level 1. It's subject to DR, but oh well, cry me a river. (Also, psion killers can't do much against this, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm) which you also need to have one way or another, by Expanded Knowledge if necessary.)

olentu
2010-07-01, 12:07 AM
Due to psionics-magic transparency, anything that boosts caster level (e.g. orange ioun stones) will work with ML.

This is actually so far as I can tell just making things up based on common sense or at least despite repeated requests nothing has been given that shows that +CL items must work in exactly this way and not in some other way that is equally unsupported. So ask the DM.

Edit: due to transparency.

Zaq
2010-07-01, 12:13 AM
This is actually so far as I can tell just making things up based on common sense or at least despite repeated requests nothing has been given that shows that +CL items must work in exactly this way and not in some other way that is equally unsupported. So ask the DM.


Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

Bold added for emphasis.

I fail to see any way in which this is unclear or unsupported.

olentu
2010-07-01, 12:15 AM
Bold added for emphasis.

I fail to see any way in which this is unclear or unsupported.

It does not specify the way in which they could effect psionics. They could do anything if we are allowing them to do stuff that is not listed in the rules due to transparency.

Edit: So saying that transparency says that this one particular way must be the only way is not supported.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-01, 12:18 AM
How would a Torc of Power Preservation work? If my ML was 5, and I have a Torc, can I manifest a power for 6, which the Torc reduces to 5, and thus is equal to or less than my ML? Or can I still only manifest a power for 5, which the Torc then reduces to 4, saving me an extra PP to use late?

I'm inclined to believe its the later, but the former would be really nice.

At ML 5, you declare augmenting it to 6 pp, then you pay only 5, thus staying within the limitation. The same goes for the feat Earth Power (RoS), which combined will effectively allow you to augment any power by two points beyond your ML. Combined with Overchannel your powers can become quite potent, though don't go running yourself out of powerpoints. You can wear sandals made from stone slabs so Earth Power is always active.

Protecar
2010-07-01, 12:20 AM
Very nice ideas guys! I knew I could count on some great thoughts. :smallbiggrin:

I've got Crystal Shard added and I'll see about getting Astral Construct. Where is this torc item from?

Keld Denar
2010-07-01, 12:21 AM
Huh, it was the former. Thats pretty good. Thats really nice if you are really close to an augement threshold...like a PsyWar6 who is just shy of the ML7 he needs to get HUGE Expansion.

Neat.

Torc is in the MIC, but it was reprinted from a previous source, probable XPH (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#torcofPowerPreservation).

The difference is the one in the MIC costs 4000g, but can only be used 5 times a day. The one in the XPH costs 36,000g but has unlimited usage.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 02:43 AM
It does not specify the way in which they could effect psionics.

It doesn't have to - just treat it the same way you would if it was used on magic. That's the point behind transparency, as Zaq pointed out.

Also, WotC themselves have said: "Manifester Level is the psionic equivalent of caster level." (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060606a)

olentu
2010-07-01, 03:44 AM
It doesn't have to - just treat it the same way you would if it was used on magic. That's the point behind transparency, as Zaq pointed out.

Also, WotC themselves have said: "Manifester Level is the psionic equivalent of caster level." (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060606a)

First of all that is not the transparency rules and so my statement is correct regardless.

Second I was not aware that in all cases ever equivalent means directly substitutable word for word in a sentence. Seeing as one definition is "corresponding in position, function, etc." that easily satisfies the sentence without allowing for direct substitution. For example ten copper pieces are not a silver piece even though the rules say "Ten copper pieces are equivalent to 1 silver piece."



Edit: Though let me try to be clear on what you mean. Your argument is that anywhere that the word equivalent is used the two things being equated can be directly substituted one for the other in all cases where the other is referred to.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 08:34 AM
First of all that is not the transparency rules and so my statement is correct regardless.

As is mine - they don't need to specify, because the interaction should be obvious.

"Any magic items that could potentially affect psioncs do affect psionics."

An Orange Ioun Stone is a magic item that only does one thing. So let me ask you then - in your games, what effect would it have on a psion?

olentu
2010-07-01, 02:25 PM
As is mine - they don't need to specify, because the interaction should be obvious.

"Any magic items that could potentially affect psioncs do affect psionics."

An Orange Ioun Stone is a magic item that only does one thing. So let me ask you then - in your games, what effect would it have on a psion?

-1 manefester level at the moment due to destructive interference between the magic boosting field and psionic field but that is also just DM fiat since nothing is specified and so I must make up something outside the RAW when it comes up.

Really the direction that I might choose to arbitrarily decide how the interaction goes for any particular game has nothing to do with what the rules do or do not say, and in this case as with most magic items they do not say what the interaction is. Alternatively if they do I have not seen where they do.


Edit: Just to be clear even if I had said +1 manifester level because I wanted a different game world then currently it would not change my position on what is and is not correct.