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woodenbandman
2010-07-01, 12:06 AM
So i found the PDF online and I like it so much that I'm going to buy the book (easier to read, don't ya know). I'm just wondering if anyone had any anecdotes/advice about the system.

Aroka
2010-07-01, 12:21 AM
The archetypes suck. Only solos are worth playing, because their special ability (Combat Sense) is superlative. (Solo variants from other books, like Power Armor Jockeys etc., are also playable.) Netrunners would be good, but netrunning is too cumbersome (and stupidly designed; 2013 had a better system for it)) to run concurrently with regular gaming. I suggest removing all the archetypes' special abilities - most (Rocker, Cop, Corp) can be replaced with regular social skills, Combat Sense is just overpowered, and some (Netrunner, MedTech, Techie) can be turned into a skill everyone can learn equally.

Basically, any time a netrunner wants to do something online, if you're using the actual system, you can just go tell your other players to go out for fast food for an hour, because they won't be doing anything.

Watch out for overspecialization. A solo with REF 10, BOD 10, a bunch of mods, Combat Sense +10, Martial Arts +10, and SMG/Rifle/Pistol +10 is just boring. Give caps (+6 is good) for starting skills; it forces a realistically diverse skillset on PCs.

Similarly, watch out for mod-stacking. You can get +4 BOD with just the basic book, and regular Skinweave (SP 12) literally makes you impervious to 9mm and smaller rounds (2D6+1), which makes combat a drag.

Combat is supposedly lethal - except its not when you're wearing armor, especially stacked armor. If the PCs have any sense, they'll have over 20 SP on most locations (26-28 easily, in completely unnoticeable and unobtrusive armor, if you get the Chromebooks). This leads to ridiculous escalation, because the enemies will need to have 7.62mm assault rifles (at least) to pose a threat to the PCs, and that's just ridiculous. This isn't even metagaming - what sort of professional criminal or hitman isn't going to wear the best unobtrusive, unencumbering armor, pack the best cyber- and bioware, and carry the best weapon?

If you can find the sourcebook Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!, it's got a million tons of practical, real advice on running the game, and a combat system that fixes all the combat problems - suddenly, even armored PCs can be stabbed and shot to deadly effect, and can no longer wade with impunity through hails of gunfire. It's wonderful.

Edit:
Also, the sourcebooks are all amazing, pretty much. They're REALLY hard to find, though. The Chromebooks add a ton of great equipment. There's slight power creep, especially with the armored clothing creation rules from 3 or 4 (I forget, I have them as a single book) but anything the PCs get the enemy can get more of. If you get the UK Sourcebook, though, never allow Reaper Rounds into the game. (They're just not even funny. Ignore all soft armor, halve and damage hard armor, deal double damage after penetration, and each shot is 1-3 hits. The writer was on crack.)

comicshorse
2010-07-01, 07:53 AM
Armour can indeed be a pain but the 'Listen up you primitive screwheads" source-book has good rules for layering armour that makes it less powerful. ( You might also consider removing or cutting down how good Skinweave is)
Netrunners can be a problem ( as they can in any game of this type, Shadowrun suffers from exactly the same problem) probably best to just have them as NPC's
I'd pretty much agree with everything Aroka said with the exception that Solo's aren't overpowered IMHO provided you use their special ability as presented in the later editions.

Aroka
2010-07-01, 08:51 AM
If not using LUYPS!, a quick fix for Skinweave is to make it a flat increase of 1 or 2 to BTM rather than treating it as armor; it's a slight benefit, but at least it doesn't make anyone impervious to the most common handgun calibers (and reduce other handguns and even 5.56mm to a mild threat). If using LUYPS!, it's a-okay; no PC is going to get more than a 2-3 levels of protection even with stacked armor. Having to constantly convert SPs to protection levels is a bit of a pain, but it's not that bad, especially when firefights will be quick and lethal. Players should always want to avoid combat in cyberpunk, and when it's unavoidable, stack the odds so far in their favor they're practically shooting fish in a barrel. (Of course, the enemy should be trying to do the same.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "later editions", re: Combat Sense. It's always a bonus to Initiative and to Awareness in combat situations, right? That makes it easily the best special ability.

Netrunners (and MedTechs, and Techies for the most part) as support characters is a good idea, too. Just figure out what the netrunner can and can't accomplish on any specific run (both pre-gig intelligence and on-the-gig assistance on request), and make the players pay through the nose for the assistance.

comicshorse
2010-07-01, 09:03 AM
Posted by Aroka

I'm not sure what you mean by "later editions", re: Combat Sense. It's always a bonus to Initiative and to Awareness in combat situations, right? That makes it easily the best special abilit

Ah you are refering to later editions. I though you meant the original Solo special ability that made them almost literally unhittable by anybody but another Solo.
I'd say the Solo special ability may be the best but not overpoweringly so. It works best in combat but Media,Cops and Fixers special abilities are great for more subtle tasks( gathering info., making deals, making contacts, etc)

P.S.
While we're on the subject of Special Abilities let me adress a pet peeve. The Nomad's Family ability seems to suggest that it is basically is used to whistle up extra muscle when needed This is a terrible idea as no Nomad respected enough to have a decent score in Family is going to get his friends ionvolved in the kind of situations that Street Ronin get themselves into. Where they are almost certainly gonna be chopped into tiny bits.
IMHO Family should be used as a small spy network, with the number of Nomads indicated by the level of the Family skill able to provide info. and technical skills when the P.C. asks for it

Aroka
2010-07-01, 10:24 AM
IMO the Corp, Media, Nomad, Cop, and Rocker abilities are (or should) all be replicable with RP and regular skills. It makes absolutely no sense to measure a corporate CEO's standing as a SKILL - they have what resources their position and their personal skills, like Intimidation, Persuasion & Fast Talk, and so on grant them. Cops make arrests with Intimidation and Streetwise. Nomads get their buddies to help with Leadership or Persuasion. Media convince people with Persuasion & Fast Talk. And all depend on RP to establish both their credentials, position, and context of skill use.

Essentially, if a Solo has good social skills and is, say, trying to rile up a crowd using Leadership, a GM would seem pretty arbitrary and unfair if he declared that nope, you need the Rocker's Charismatic Leadership for that, because, you know, swaying crowds is a rare and special gift.

The Cop's Authority and the Corp's Resources are way worse, because they're so poorly defined - they're just "a social skill you use in these situations." But a pile of other skills should also work in those situations.

The Big Dice
2010-07-01, 10:56 AM
Years of playing Cyberpunk makes me think that the above posters are overstating the case.

Yes, Solos are powerful. In a fight. But the only problem is, the other Special Abilities are a bit vague on what they do. The main thing to bear in mind is the Stability Number of NPCs. That is, their Cool x 2.5. That's the DC for social and interpersonal skills to work. That and the fact that Special Abilities can go way beyond what regular skills can do. A Corporate can get high end gear and manpower with Resources, a Cop can make people miss a turn or even surrender outright, a Media can make or break reputations and a Rockerboy can incite literally thousnds of people to riot.

The difference between Skills and Special Abilities is scale. Leadership can round up a few guys to go rumble. Charismatic Leadership can round up a few hundred people.

The real thing to bear in mind with Cyberpunk is, it's not what the book says it is. The game is in fact the RPG of 80s action movies. This is borne out by the Chrome books, which are loaded with weapons, gadgets and gizmos that are directly taken from Paul Verhoefen, Ahnuld, Stallone and so many other action flicks of the 80s.

Another_Poet
2010-07-01, 11:14 AM
So i found the PDF online and I like it so much that I'm going to buy the book (easier to read, don't ya know). I'm just wondering if anyone had any anecdotes/advice about the system.

I've read largely negative things in reviews of the system, so I would love to hear how an actual session goes. Let us know!!

Aroka
2010-07-01, 11:31 AM
Years of playing Cyberpunk makes me think that the above posters are overstating the case.

Fifteen years of playing Cyberpunk 2020 should be plenty, and my experiences aren't unique.

At my table, I'm the only one who has ever played anyone but a Solo (one netrunner, once; never did netrunning because it would have eaten everyone else's time), because all the other archetypes suck so bad.

Similarly, combat with stacked armor is bad, and with overspecialization it really is a nightmare. I have had lone PC Solos loaded up with nothing but core book cyberware, an armored trenchcoat, and basic SMGs waltz into rooms full of security troops, and drop them all with 3-round bursts to the head while taking less than an average of 1 point of damage from their 5.56mm rounds. (Incidentally, both AP and hollowpoint rounds only increase final damage at very specific narrow SP intervals. Gah!)

It doesn't have to be that way - LUYPS! really fixes combat entirely, and you can do fine without it, but in my experience you need to be aware of these problems so that you can head them off or recognize them, and fix them.


Yes, Solos are powerful. In a fight. But the only problem is, the other Special Abilities are a bit vague on what they do. The main thing to bear in mind is the Stability Number of NPCs. That is, their Cool x 2.5. That's the DC for social and interpersonal skills to work. That and the fact that Special Abilities can go way beyond what regular skills can do. A Corporate can get high end gear and manpower with Resources, a Cop can make people miss a turn or even surrender outright, a Media can make or break reputations and a Rockerboy can incite literally thousnds of people to riot.

The difference between Skills and Special Abilities is scale. Leadership can round up a few guys to go rumble. Charismatic Leadership can round up a few hundred people.

The thing is, these differences aren't quantified. Why can't Leadership be used with hundreds of people? Why can't Intimidation be used to make a perp surrender? "Because" isn't an answer. Why can't you have both Combat Sense and Charismatic Leadership, or Combat Sense and Authority?

The problem is partly that CP2020 is a bastard between class-based and classless systems. Sure, it's superficially skill-based, but your class gives you unreplicable super-abilities (at least if you play it as you describe, and as - indeed - the writers may have intended), which makes no sense at all.


Oh, a protip for new Refs (something all the groups I've played with originally failed to notice, for some reason): when firing bursts or automatic fire, damage is calculated separately for each shot.



I've read largely negative things in reviews of the system, so I would love to hear how an actual session goes. Let us know!!

For all its faults, the game works great. It's not so rules-heavy that the problems (like the fact there's no mention of what you roll to throw a grenade, just a scatter chart!) really affect anything. Rolls tend to supplement RP rather than solve challenges by themselves, and the deadly combat emphasizes player cleverness over PC skills.

The typical scenario is your standard Gibson Sprawl trilogy cyberpunk operation: someone powerful hires the group to do a job. They get intelligence, they prepare, and they hit the site.

The PCs play it cunning and sneaky, using stealth and infiltration first. Eventually, something goes sideways, and they get into a big gunfight. Either they wipe out the opposition or beat a retreat. Hopefully they got the job done.

Either way, the employer will probably doublecross them in the end (most experienced parties are ridiculously paranoid about accepting jobs and can spend an entire session investigating their employer - I've done it, and it was great fun to do), and they'll barely survive, broke and hunted.

It's classic cyberpunk.

woodenbandman
2010-07-02, 11:00 AM
Can i get a little insight as to how LIYPS solves all these problems? I've managed to find it on amazon for a non-exorbitant price, but it'd be nice to know before I buy.

So far it sounds like i need the core book (which I have found new for 25 bucks), and LIYPS (used for 10).

Aroka
2010-07-02, 11:43 AM
Can i get a little insight as to how LIYPS solves all these problems? I've managed to find it on amazon for a non-exorbitant price, but it'd be nice to know before I buy.

So far it sounds like i need the core book (which I have found new for 25 bucks), and LIYPS (used for 10).

$25 for a new LUYPS! is amazing. The books are decades old and getting rare. I paid something like double that for mine at a bookstore years ago.

It's mostly full of advice for running the game - real advice that makes sense. They acknowledge the problem classes (MedTech, Netrunner, etc.) and suggest ways to make the game work with them. There's combat advice (including basic tactics), and a pile of other stuff. It's worth it just by that.


As for the combat system specifically...

The core book's combat system has two main problems:
1. An overspecialized Solo with all the cyberware a Solo needs can, especially indoors, take out multiple opponents with 3-round bursts to the head before they can react. This is mostly mitigated by restricting overspecialization.
2. Armor. SP 12 Skinweave and a SP 18 armored jacket means SP 12 on your head and SP 22 (or 21, I forget) all over. That means you can't be harmed by knives, fists, clubs, pipes, chains, or almos any pistol or submachinegun, and are incredibly resistant to rifle rounds and super-high handgun calibers.

LUYPS! has a variant combat system where, instead of the old "roll damage, roll location, deduct armor, deduct Body Type Modifier, apply damage" system, you roll a d10 and check a table on a row depending on your weapon's damage (with bonuses dropped; 2D6+1 and 2D6+3 both use the 2D6 row). This gets you a number. Then you deduct your location's Protection Value (determined by checking your SP against a table) from that. You double what remains, and deduct your Body Type Modifier.

Now, because of the way the two tables work, and also because of how applying divisors to SP (which blades and armor piercing bullets do) affects Protection Value, knives and even fists will deal damage through pretty much any concealable armor. PCs in MetalGear or with some of the military armor from Home of the Brave can still ignore small arms fire, but that's how it's supposed to work.

The rules also introduce blunt trauma from shots that don't penetrate your armor; basically, if you keep getting hit, even if the rounds don't penetrate, you're going to get bruised. If you take 20 rounds to the chest from a SMG and none penetrate your armor, you'll probably be knocked out by stun from the sheer blunt force.

It doesn't really slow or complicate combat much at all, IMO, and you get your lethality back. PCs will no longer be able to blithely ignore a thug with a knife, much less wade through dozens of security guards armed with mere pistols. They'll want to use stealth, keep their heads down, and minimize the amount of shots fired at them - just like they should, when the aim is gritty lethal cyberpunk combat.


Digging out the book and some old files to illustrate in an example...

Let's say you've got the Skinweave (SP 12) and the SP 18 armored jacket (a mere -1 to REF, IIRC, since basic Skinweave doesn't encumber). You're at SP 12 for your head, SP 22 for everything else. You've got a modest -2 BTM. Someone comes at you with a 9mm pistol, 2D6+1 damage. Their maximum is 13 damage. That won't penetrate your armor. If you get hit in the head for maximum damage, 1 point will get through, get doubled to 2, and reduced by BTM to 1 (BTM cannot lower damage past 1). And that's going to be 1 in 36 shots (or all shots at ranges under 10 feet or so; point-blank is maximum damage). You can literally stop 9mm rounds - supposed to be among the most common handgun and SMG rounds even in 2020 - with your face. You can take a clipfull of 9mm rounds to the face and not flinch.

Before LUYPS!, I worked around this in various annoying ways; security guards would have very high-caliber weapons with special rounds (not regular AP, which halves SP and penetrating damage, but really special rounds that reduced SP without reducing and sometimes increasing penetrating damage). But anything you give to the opposition, your PCs will get their hands on, especially if it can hurt them.

But let's bring in LUYPS!. That SP 12 is Armor Protection 1 (same as SP 4 would be). That SP 22 is AP 6 (respectable!). The 2D6 row of the table gives us 2-7 base damage. Even the lowest damage will penetrate your face AP by 1, doubled to 2, doubled to 4, reduced by BTM 2. So at a minimum, the face hits from 9mm will be dealing 2 damage - that's enough to take you halfway down one wound level each time (Light to Severe to Critical to Mortal!). The average is 4.5 damage, so a shot to the face will do, on average, 12 damage - that's straight to the end of Critical.

So with LUYPS!, a 9mm round headshot is actually likely to kill you with Skinweave. That's realistic and dangerous. A simple, undetectable, ubiquituous mod no longer makes everyone immune to the most common handguns. Meanwhile, the other handgun calibers deal very similar, but still higher, damages: 3D6 handguns (.357 IIRC) average 5.5 before doubling, and 4D6 (12mm) average 6.5.

Note that only the higher ones actually start to penetrate the layered Skinweave and armored jacket, making it good and worthwhile protection that doesn't make you invulnerable. You're best off layering armor AND avoiding being shot, especially since higher calibers deal the blunt trauma despite armor (4D6 and above guns can even deal blunt trauma through hard armors like Metal Gear, and 7.62mm will do it 90% of the time).


... and yeah, I actually run the numbers for game systems. I am a statistics/probability math geek.

Psyx
2010-07-02, 11:56 AM
The game has a great feel to it, but it does need a GM who can say 'no' to players. The system also has... problems. There's no point going into details, but suffice to say that character gen results in anyone who can do maths playing a character with a bunch of skills maxxed at 10 and who rounds out things later.

Basically; it needs a good GM and players who can be trusted not to be munchkins. Or just kill the munchkins until they stop doing it, or stop playing.

As regarding the poster above who thinks that everything other than solos suck, I suspect that you may be playing 'CP2020 the dungeoncrawl'. Many of the other class abilities aren't fantastic, but a corporate with a high level of influence and a mobile phone is far deadlier than any solo.


As a side-note, I found a great way to help balance things slightly was to reduce all high velocity (rifle) damage by a third, but make it half all armour. That's what rifle bullets do really well: Over-penetrate stuff. It makes rifles less auto-kill to characters who have been sensible about their armour, and a threat to those that haven't (who you should be giving huge problems to all the while as a decent GM anyhow).

Aroka
2010-07-02, 12:03 PM
As regarding the poster above who thinks that everything other than solos suck, I suspect that you may be playing 'CP2020 the dungeoncrawl'. Many of the other class abilities aren't fantastic, but a corporate with a high level of influence and a mobile phone is far deadlier than any solo.

We played regular Cyberpunk; it was one-third sneaking, one-third snooping, and one-third action (not always firefights). Maybe you should have read why I think Solos are the only useful archetype.

Like I've said repeatedly, all the non-combat stuff is either stupid to limit to an archetype (like MedTech; seriously?) or is perfectly replicable with social skills (unless the GM is an arbitrary loon). Acting first in combat is such a huge advantage that Combat Sense is necessary, and everything else - all the social stuff, etc. - can be done with normal skills.

A Solo with corporate connections (no Resource skill) and a high Persuasion and a cell phone is just as deadly as the Corp. Why wouldn't he be? Where's the rule that you can't tap resources available to you without the Resources skill? Why is a Cop's Authority better than the Solo's Intimidation and Streetwise? The Techie's Jury-Rig (I think that's the English skill name?) is the second-best Special Ability by a huge difference, and it's incredibly situational.

Choco
2010-07-02, 12:07 PM
You can literally stop 9mm rounds - supposed to be among the most common handgun and SMG rounds even in 2020 - with your face. You can take a clipfull of 9mm rounds to the face and not flinch.

Yeah, that made me laugh, hard, at work... Maybe this is how Superman did it :smalltongue:

I have had a few of the books for a while but no one ever wanted to play. However, I recently showed Ghost in the Shell to my regular D&D group and now suddenly they all want to do a cyberpunk game. As that was the desired effect, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! :smallamused:

From what I have read though, what types of classes are the best depends entirely on what kind of game you want to play. You can do a game where everyone is a non-combatant (corporates, hackers, etc.) and "combat" is just them running from the occasional baddies that catch on to them, or the corporate picking up his phone and calling in backup. For this group however, it will likely be all about the combat and stealth, so I was thinking about making everyone solos but giving them 1 extra special ability from one of the other roles in addition to combat sense. How do y'all more experience types think that would work out?

Aroka
2010-07-02, 12:12 PM
Just forget Special Abilities altogether, really. Make MedTech a regular TECH skill, make the Netrunner specialty a regular skill, and you're done. Social relationships don't need to be represented with skills. (Why would a Corp's access to resources go up with experiences anyway?)

If you want combat specialists to have an Initiative advantage, make EVERYONE'S Initiative REF + REF + 1D10 (instead of REF + Combat Sense + 1D10). That way, a REF 10 operator will almost always act before a REF 5 mook (open-ended 1D10, after all).

Choco
2010-07-02, 12:17 PM
So basically remove classes altogether and make it a 100% skill based game? That would be a nice change of pace actually.

Aroka
2010-07-02, 12:22 PM
So basically remove classes altogether and make it a 100% skill based game? That would be a nice change of pace actually.

I really recommend it. The archetypes are nothing but a list of skills and a single silly special ability as is. And you can change up the skill lists to fit a specific concept, too; the sourcebooks are full of alternative archetypes built around the same special abilities, like the Politician version of Rocker.

The Big Dice
2010-07-02, 12:27 PM
Similarly, combat with stacked armor is bad, and with overspecialization it really is a nightmare. I have had lone PC Solos loaded up with nothing but core book cyberware, an armored trenchcoat, and basic SMGs waltz into rooms full of security troops, and drop them all with 3-round bursts to the head
Nowhere in the book does it say that you can target a burst. In fact, the autofire rules imply pretty strongly that you can't target locations unless you use single shot mode. That's the GM not thinking logically about how guns work, not the system falling apart.

Besides, at a cumulative -3 penalty for each action, combined with a -4 for the called shot, you're looking at even the best Solo abusing the fact that the rules don't specifically state the obvious about the physics of recoil being at a hefty -10 penalty on his third attempt to pull that particular move off. -13 for the fourth, -17 for the fifth... Pretty soon you're going to miss and Cyberpunk specifically states that the Referee should play dirty. That miss is what cues the NPC guards that were patrolling the facility to go grab the nerve gas grenades and the respirators. Or to switch the ammo in their FN-RAL for Armour Piercing.

And I know all too well how hard it is to armour your head in CP2020.

Unless you want to look like an idiot in a motorbike helmet, of course. And if you want that look, you're probably playing the wrong game.


The thing is, these differences aren't quantified. Why can't Leadership be used with hundreds of people? Why can't Intimidation be used to make a perp surrender? "Because" isn't an answer. Why can't you have both Combat Sense and Charismatic Leadership, or Combat Sense and Authority?
Actually, the core rulebook does give numbers for how many people Charismatic Leadership and Family can influence. I don't have access to my books at the moment, but they are in there. Just buried away in obscure places.

As for why you can't have multiple Special Abilities, there are Interface magazine articles still floating around (if you can track them down) that discuss "multiclassing" in CP 2020. Personally, I never found it worth the effort, but it can be done.


The problem is partly that CP2020 is a bastard between class-based and classless systems. Sure, it's superficially skill-based, but your class gives you unreplicable super-abilities (at least if you play it as you describe, and as - indeed - the writers may have intended), which makes no sense at all.
That's a misunderstanding. Your ROLE is what gives you a particular special ability. Which is a completely different implication from a CLASS giving you an ability. The character role is more about it's function in the story, not just what it can do in mechanical terms. That's why the Roles give unique abilities. THe fiction and sidebar quotes in the core rulebook do a very good job of setting the tone, and it's all about story if you go by the writer's intent.

For an examination of some other Special Abilities, check out Wildside, the Fixer sourcebook. The ideas given for Streetdeal in there can also be applied to a Corporate's Resources skill, allowing for much more detail and potential from the ivory towers angle.

Also Rockerboy, which is kind of obvious what it's about, is worth reading. Especially the article called "Hitler was a Rockerboy."


Oh, a protip for new Refs (something all the groups I've played with originally failed to notice, for some reason): when firing bursts or automatic fire, damage is calculated separately for each shot.
Some other protips:
Remember recoil. Each round in a burst hits a separate location. I know the book doesn't explicitly say that, but it should, otherwise there's too many ways to abuse autofire.
Armour only degrades for each attack that penetrates it, according to the rules.
Be ready to houserule. Unarmed combat in particular is extremely vague. In fact, there are huge holes in the rules all over the place.

Also, netrunning needs a radical overhaul. It shows it's roots in the 80s very clearly. Perhaps that's a topic for a houserules thread.

For all its faults, the game works great. It's not so rules-heavy that the problems (like the fact there's no mention of what you roll to throw a grenade, just a scatter chart!) really affect anything. Rolls tend to supplement RP rather than solve challenges by themselves, and the deadly combat emphasizes player cleverness over PC skills.
Cyberpunk 2020 was a storytelling game before there were storytelling games. Sadly, the whole Cyberpunk Revolution was killed off by players who played professional sellouts rather than free spirits who wanted to break the system and make the world a better place.


The typical scenario is your standard Gibson Sprawl trilogy cyberpunk operation: someone powerful hires the group to do a job. They get intelligence, they prepare, and they hit the site.
That's the typical scenario. But I'd say it's worth tracking down some of the Ianus Games material, for a very different take on things. Grimm's Cybertales in particular opens up a very macarbre world. And the Necrology trilogy of modules are some of the best I've ever seen for any system.

Also, this site (http://datafortress2020.110mb.com/index.html) has a ton of useful support material, collected from fansites across the net and compiled for your gaming pleasure.

Psyx
2010-07-05, 06:13 AM
I still don't agree that solos are the be-all-and-end-all. The resources, streetdeal, family and similar skills are all about the contacts that a character have. The clue with solo is the name: You don't have those three million contacts and allies unless you build them up in game.

Sure: You could do it with persuasion, but then the GM is missing the point. Cyberpunk is all about double-dealing and betrayal - shades of grey. Those contacts you fast-talked or bribed are the scorpions giving you a lift across the river - betrayal is inevitable. Whereas Family... well, that's Family, and you can actually trust your Nomad pack not to screw you over, because that's the point of the ability.

Some of the class abilities are worth a fiddle with though: Allow med-tech to add to first aid and -say- biology rolls and jury-rig to add to all non-medical tech rolls, streetdeal to add to streetwise and other applicable skills and you have 'number-wise' more worthwhile skills. Authority is still a pain though. I don't allow PC netrunners now, because they're a pain in the behind to run for.

No: It doesn't make sense that a network of contacts is represented with XP until you take a look around you at expert networkers who do spend a lot of time and effort cultivating those networks instead of -say- practising karate 12 hours a day. but then it doesn't make sense that Kickboxing is four times harder to learn than boxing, either.

Also...replacing the 1d10 for skill checks with 2d6 gives a better bell-curve and is a good idea.

Bharg
2010-07-05, 10:03 AM
I always thought the frog was giving the scorpion a lift... but, yes, I agree.

Tengu_temp
2010-07-05, 10:54 AM
Is there a good fix for the skill issue? With the way they work in the main book, you need to heavily specialize in order to be effective at anything, and save DC scaling is really bad: if you have 60% chance to succeed at an average task, then your chance to succeed at a hard task is 10%, and at a very hard task 0%. And, with both stats and skills scaling from 1-10 and each point giving you a 10% higher chance at succeeding, this means that the skill disparacy between characters is huge, even if two of them are supposed to specialize at the same thing.

Aroka
2010-07-05, 03:27 PM
Use 2D6 for the bell curve instead of straight 10% 20% 30%... -progression. Make 1-2 and 11-12 open-ended (or exploding; reroll and deduct on 1-2, reroll and add on 11-12).

Mess with the target numbers some, too. If 7 is the average on 2D6, and an average schmoe has ability 4-5 and skill 1-3, we get something like...

10 - Anyone can do it
15 - Easy
20 - Challenging
25 - Legendary performance

You'll need to switch out the combat target numbers for something like, say, 10 - 12 - 15 - 18 - 20 - 22 (instead of 5-10-15-20-25-30). It gets slightly less intuitive since they're not divisible by 5, but it's not that big a deal.

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World (which uses Fuzion as the "engine") uses the following difficulty ratings (with d10):
Characteristic test: Easy 8, Average 10, Hard 12, Really Hard 14, Heroic 18, Legendary 22, Mythic 26
Skill test: Easy 10, Average 12, Hard 14, Really Hard 18, Heroic 22, Legendary 26, Mythic 30
However, "average" skill in Artesia is a mere 2-4, so the skill test target numbers are a bit low; meanwhile, the high-end is very high, because both characteristics and skills will go over 10. Adjust as necessary. (Also, A:AKW puts a giant focus on opposed rolls rather than rolling against a static target, to the point that I can't see having my players make many unopposed rolls at all. Very different from Cyberpunk.)

Alternatively, let them be, just use DCs around 15-25 for most things, along with the 2D6 roll.


Other alternative: you roll 2D10, trying to go BELOW a target number determined by Skill + Attribute, with modifiers (so for an attack, Weapon Accuracy increases the target number). Task difficulty would become a modifier to the target number. I've considered this for the next time I run Cyberpunk. Seems like the best option, even if it will change a lot.


Edit: I haven't really run the numbers for these options, and it's late here. Maybe I will do it tomorrow and post my results - it's quite fun.

The Big Dice
2010-07-05, 05:46 PM
I never had a problem with the skill system for 2020. That said, I've seen things like character sheets with a 3d6 rather than 1d10 method for determining hit location.

With the default d10 method, you're looking at someone with a skill and stat at 10 having a 10% chance of succeeding at a Nearly Impossible feat, with anyone of lower ability needing to get good results on an exploding 10 to succeed. And that's without using Luck to boost the roll. Which is something that often gets forgotten about.

Still, I'd be interested to see the mat (and difficulty spread) for adapting things to a 2d6 system. I'm looking for a way to sell my players on 2020. With a couple of them complaining about the game system, a tweak might help get their interest.