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taltamir
2010-07-01, 12:14 AM
I have long held that min/maxing isn't really reprehensible, but sensible in character behavior.
I have done it IRL, you make decisions about your education that (hopefully) capitalize on your strengths.

To quote myself from another thread:

I find it to be terrible unrealistic to play any class that is int based and take skill focus basket weaving...

it would be like going to college for 8 years and getting a PHD in basket-weaving instead of a MD or a law degree. Every time you make a decision about your education or your career you are attempting to min/max yourself IRL.
And if you go to the army they will help you min/max for combat.

This got me thinking... what kind of min/maxing can you expect to receive in character if you join a fictional army in DnD world?

The trick is that it has to be in character... that is, you need:
1. Testing phase: determine the capabilities and strengths of the individual.
2. Training phase: provide a predetermined training regime, with study under teachers who specialize in certain skill sets.

Lets avoid overt modifications, such as creating an army of were-creatures (especially because being a were-wolf doesn't preclude you from also being a were-tiger, and were-bear, and were-shark, etc. so they get really powerful really fast)

Basically, class builds and choices... the builds should be useful at every level. should hopefully work well in teams. And should either be battle oriented, or task oriented (aka, infiltration squad is legitimate).
Designing "balanced squads" works out well actually, especially if they are given winning tactics.

So... any ideas?

Eldariel
2010-07-01, 07:24 AM
Basically, class builds and choices... the builds should be useful at every level. should hopefully work well in teams. And should either be battle oriented, or task oriented (aka, infiltration squad is legitimate).
Designing "balanced squads" works out well actually, especially if they are given winning tactics.

So... any ideas?

Army is about general specialization. Mass production of certain archetypes, if you will. D&D adds quite a bit to the selection of archetypes simply due to magic. First though, we'll have to determine the face of warfare we'll be using; are we going to incorporate fantastic creatures and magic in the core of the system?

This has a few huge implications:
1) You have an air force, units capable of moving underground and some units can even have the capability to teleport. This changes the face of warfare and thus, the needs of units.
2) Teleportation changes the way supply lines function tremendously. Also, the capability to create supplies on the spot means that distance from supplies isn't nearly as big a factor as it is even now, and that it's trivial to supply isolated units. Of course, it's also trivial to save isolated units from the field as long as you can locate them.
3) Mass effect spells like Cloudkills, Fireballs and company mean there's effectively artillery on the battlefield. This places most traditional infantry tactics into question.
4) Communication has been one of the huge reasons for tactics being as simple as they were in the medieval era. Magic makes that a complete non-issue.


So, what would armies do? Well, first would be to isolate every candidate with any degree of magical talent (high enough Int, Wis or Cha to cast spells in a spellcasting class) and have those individuals train exclusively in those arts, as magics are important without equal to military.

Now, what I perceive your question as is what the line men would look like. Given we'd probably be looking at combat resembling modern warfare more than medieval. As such, we're probably going to look at bunch of teams, lots of crouching and so on. I'd expect weapon of choice to be Crossbow (ranged weapon that can be used while Prone) and men to need at least Evasion.

Mettle wouldn't hurt either but chances are they won't be high enough level to survive Cloudkills anyways so open formations are the best protection there anyways. Also, they'll definitely want at least Spot and Listen; other skills depend on their role.


Martial Rogue is probably a good starting point; Martial Rogue 2 gives you two feats, Evasion and most of the key skills. Monk 2 is the other alternative. Both lack a bit in terms of HP and proficiencies but c'est la vie. Monk would offer Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat, which may be very useful; being Prone (and plated, of course) gives you nice AC so as long as you can block that one arrow, you're golden. Rogue would have Use Magic Device which, depending on the material resources available, can be absolutely vital.

This could be combined with Crusader or Warblade for improvements on durability and proficiencies. This would also give you some martial prowess, which is good. Crusader has Tower Shield proficiency which is rather key; Tower Shield seems like the only way not to get turned into pincushion the second you stop crouching.

Something like that would make for good "troop". Then you want some commando units (most definitely Factotums or Rogues), shock troopers (some manner of charger, probably; Wild Cohorted Warblades?) to take down opponent's heavy hitters (giants, trolls, whatever) and to recover lost positions. Every unit needs training in melee, of course, for trench warfare (trenches granting total cover from most attacks seems rather key, though suspectible to Cloudkill).


Oh, and you definitely want leader-types with the following:
Bard 3/Marshal 1/Crusader X

In armies, even +1 Inspire Competence is huge, let alone Inspirational Boost + Song of the Heart. Indeed, specialists with levels in Marshal would probably be rather important all-around.

Following specialists would probably be around:
- Marshal with Over The Top and another one with Master of Tactics in Shock Troops
- Determined Caster in battlemage formations
- Force of Will or Watchful Eye in line units; indeed, it may be optimal to have a couple of leader types each unit boosting the saves across the board.

Critical
2010-07-01, 07:29 AM
Well, I'd expect something like Crusaders with Phalanx Fighting and a Marshal as a commander, maybe a Bard or two for inspirations.

EDIT: Ow, and a Wizard with them.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 07:44 AM
The first thing to consider is the actual availability of extranormal resources like magic and flying rides. A kingdom that can pay an army to have a third-level caster for every 50-soldiers host just doesn't need adventurers to solve stuff the PCs are hired to do on the earlier levels.


That said, try to stack bonuses and practical magic. Hosts' commanders should be marshals or white raven artists and similar group buffers, and casters should maximize their effectiveness with their relatively limited resources (a hundred level 10+ casters don't even really need an army, so be careful on how you balance magic here), relying primarily on terrain modification, information relay(here probably you won't be able to keep good comm except for a few selected commanders, item creation is a good idea here. Go radio!) and keeping other casters in check.


OH! Also, don't bother fighting with traditional d&d rules. A round with 4 players and 6 npcs can already take 5 to 15 minutes of real time... See if you can find a practical system somewhere or make up your own. Usually you consider entire hosts a single unit and proper buffers and debuffers apply fully to them if they're massive, but partially if they can't fill all the soldiers from that unit.

Aharon
2010-07-01, 08:08 AM
If we go by the often used assumption that people with class levels are seldom, and people with a high level even more so, I think a lot of the armies strength relies on the availability of buffs. There are some decent buffs with fixed range that can be persisted, so basically army optimization is "optimize some casters on a budget to get a certain result."

Some good spells, the DC needed to persist them, and their widened radius:
Prayer (Cleric 3, Paladin 3) DC 45/54 40 ft./Widened 80 ft.
Blessed aim (Blackguard 1, clr 1, pal 1) DC 39/48 50 ft./Widened 100 ft.
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful clr 5 DC 51/60 30 ft./Widened 60 ft.
Interfaith Blessing (Cleric 2) DC 42/51 20 ft./Widened 40 ft.
Allegro (Bard 3) DC 42/51 20 ft./Widened 40 ft.
Recitation (cleric 4, Purification 3) DC 42/51 60 f./Widened 120 ft.
Elation (Clr 2, BoED), DC 42/51, 80 ft./Widened 160 ft.

for
+2 morale STR
+2 morale DEX
+5 ft. movement
+3 AC
+5 ranged attacks
+2 ranged damage
+6 melee attacks
+6 melee damage
one additonal melee attack per round when making full attack
30 feet movement
in a 40 ft. radius
You can fit about 200 people in a 40 ft. radius, and you need at a minimum an Artificer 8, a Cleric 9, a Bard 4, a Wizard 7 and a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 to pull it off.

At higher levels, you could add
Crown of Glory (Glory 8), Lion's Roar (Glory 8) and Sacred Aid (Pal 4) for
+4 morale bonus on attack rolls,
saves, and skill checks, immunity to
fear effects, and temporary hit points
equal to your caster level (maximum
20)
+1 morale bonus
on attack rolls and saves against fear
effects, plus temporary hit points equal
to 1d8 + caster level (to a maximum of
1d8+20 temporary hit points at caster
level 20th).
+2 sacred AC, retain dex bonus to armor while flatfooted/against invisible opponents

If you have a permanent Gate to the Astral Plane or another plane where you fly at will, you can increase the number of effected creatures to around 680, if every creature takes a 5ft. cube. If we allow them to crowd a little, it becomes a lot more.

Of course, even with these improvements, the army would not really pose a great threat, as their power comes from the buffs of the commanders.

Edit:
A more effective way would be just PoAing your army, but I guess this isn't the answer you would want to hear :smalltongue:
Your Land forces would consist of Firbolgs, your sea forces of Sea Hags and your air forces of Abeil queens, then. Unless your people are outsiders.
When I had time, I did the math for the Army of Waterdeep. If I remember correctly, a city created by DMG guidelines would need about 2 years from its casters to convert their whole army via PoA.

Second Edit:
Oh, and the side with a competent Wu Jen wins. With Greater Spirit Binding, you can bind a Spirit of the Land. While already useful for adventuring concerns, it also has Earthquake at will. Not useful for adventurers - very useful against armies.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-01, 08:19 AM
I think it would really depend on the level spread of the armies. If you are fielding an army with a 100 lvl 1 NPCs, 30 lvl 2 NPCs, 10 lvl 5 NPCs and 1 lvl 10 NPC ratio, than combat will be difrent that a more even level spread.

I think in the general midevil setting you would see a huge diference in character levels. The idea would then be to have those level one characters be as useful as posible. I think you would likely have squads of three level one characters with a level two character of the same build.

You would have feat rouges for skermish, maybe scouts (the class, insted of feat rouge). Equiped with crossbows, but they would likely not get close enough to use skermish, so scout be less useful.

Then you would have melee classes. I think this would be 90% warblades and 10% barbarians. Those are just the best two classes at low level. They both get enough hp to survive a melee (maybe) at low levels and still be able to do it again.

Then you would have single bards and clerics running from squad to squad healing and buffing, staying with a squad durring a push. These would likely be level two characters, but you would see level one characters due to reality and trying to field as many as posible, as healing would determine just how many of your army you have left to field tomorow. One cure spell can pick up a droped level one character, and he wouldn't likey be standing after another hit if he healed to full anyway, so they wouldn't likely bother. I suspect the order would be if an ally is droped, apply blessed bandage, signal a bard, keep moveing, and hope for the best.

High level characters would solo the taskes of low level characters. Higher level rouges and scouts would scout and take out targets of opertunity, like a bard or cleric. With some basic magic items he would have a high enough hide to be undetetable by level one characters.

a high level cleric or bard would be able to turn the tide durring a push, boosting all of his allies.

A high level warblade or barbarian would be a serious threat to any low level squad, and would likely be deployed as a hunter killer, taking out any squad he crossed. Cleave, great cleave, and supreame cleave would be the word of the day. You can likely take out a clumped squad before they can even swing a blade.

Finaly you would have the magic. I expect a side to not be able to field a temendous amount of magic due to a low level mage not being worth looseing in the field. High level mages would be all you see in the field, and you wouldn't see them that oftine. They have few spells per day that really mater in group action, and those spells matter to much to waste. Besides, if you show your head, a rouge is going to come looking for it.

High level mages would stay in the back and wait for a push to form. they would then try to beat the push to the point of conflict. Those spells don't do to much damage unless you can get the enimies to clump, so you try to make clumping and focused attacks the only way to hit your line hard.

You would also see them offensivly on the oposing side of a push. Those defenses require a lot less troops to take if they have been fireballed. This would place that mage at a risk though, and you would likely see this only in cases that you knew that you could take the field and wanted to minimise casualties.

Radar
2010-07-01, 10:03 AM
Some random tricks I loosly recall:
1. There was probably a class ability, that substituted everyones attack bonus with the highest in the range, but I can't remember, what sort of a class had it.
2. Favor of the Martyr - you don't die or go unconsious while at negative HP. Even better: the more damage you take, the stronger you get. You just need an Incantatrix to chain and perisist it for you. If you have some Crusaders to constantly heal your troops, your army is undying (well unless dispeled obviously).
3. Chicken Infested Commoners can provide limitless ammount of minions that can be buffed with (1) and/or used by a Dread Necromancers to make exploading undead.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 12:01 PM
great tricks all around. thanks everyone...

Assuming that PC classes ARE available to soldiers in this army (its a really hardcore army :P); but that its mostly lower level guys. What class builds would you go for?
Fight? Barb? a little of both?

Also, in regards to the mentioned spells. Wouldn't consumables be the best investment here?

PS. I just imagined an explosive runes "grenade"

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 12:08 PM
great tricks all around. thanks everyone...

Assuming that PC classes ARE available to soldiers in this army (its a really hardcore army :P); but that its mostly lower level guys. What class builds would you go for?
Fight? Barb? a little of both?

Also, in regards to the mentioned spells. Wouldn't consumables be the best investment here?

PS. I just imagined an explosive runes "grenade"

Well, depends. Consumables tend to be VERY expensive for large-scale combat. Basically anything non-durable that costs more than 1PO is out of the reach of soldiers if magic is low-key. Depending on what the casters are doing, those things don't see much use either.

A fair question on whether or not consumables should be available is asking yourself "How much does it cost me to have the consumables, and how much does it cost me to tell the troops to go there and do what the consumables do?" Standard alchemical fire, for example, would only be useful on the first rounds where the soldiers are advancing. And they wouldn't do anything the crossbowmen wouldn't already.


To keep things on an end where PCs are actually necessary through the campaign, you'll probably want the soldiers to be Warriors, and pc classes strict to about half of the high-ranking combatants. This way you can have an average level between 3 and 5 and still have it making sense for an army (highly trained troops are [i]rare[/b] in a pre-gunpowder era. Elite stuff only).

taltamir
2010-07-01, 12:23 PM
I was mostly interested in this as more of a thought experiment, rather then a campaign to run. But this is actually getting interesting in that regard too.

Alright, now that I am looking at it as a campaign idea... what if the majority of armies are simply low level warriors NPC class. But the elite black ops and honor guard of the emperor are higher level PC classes.
That way the PCs could one of a FEW black ops units of a certain country.

What sort of in game tests would you use to determine capability, and what sort of in game training regime would a bunch of wizards, clerics, etc come up with.

The PCs don't HAVE to follow the training the regime... but MOST of the other black ops teams would have a wizard / geomancer / mage of the arcane order / loremaster / archmage etc. And well built Fighter / Barb / etc or maybe swordsages?

mmm... so, making the wizard a "geomancer" (the guys who use geometry to make spells) is simple enough. just give them training in it... saves a whole lot on copying spells (which the state pays for, for a certain basic set of spells). The mage of the arcane order is for access to spell pool... again, simple enough to do in game. loremaster I am actually not sure how to go about... mabye drop it.
Archmage I am thinking for the arcane reach ability, and for cheap +1 bonuses to caster level. The arcane reach, along with chain spell, allows you to take a single target touch buff and turn into a whole party buff.
Any other ideas here?

What would be the size of a team? I am thinking cleric + wizard + bard + figther (who commands the other fighters) + several lower level fighters?
Or maybe cleric + wizard + bard + several fighters, all the same level?

fighter = martial character, doesn't have to be a fighter.

Morph Bark
2010-07-01, 12:29 PM
Well, I'd expect something like Crusaders with Phalanx Fighting and a Marshal as a commander, maybe a Bard or two for inspirations.

EDIT: Ow, and a Wizard with them.

I've once requested someone well-versed with optimization for an army build he once made and I had forgotten, and this was part of it. Better yet, increase the amount of Bards to your maximum and give them that one horn that gives a 1 (10?) mile range to bardic music (5x Dragonfire Inspiration, 1x normal, other variants, etc). A level 2 Marshal is better than level 1 due to major auras of course, and getting more Marshals or Dragon Shamans is always nice to add more variety in effects. Make sure to have the two front lines be Crusaders, with at least the second line having reach weapons.

If you want spellcasters for buffing, you will likely need some high-level ones though, if you want it to be really effective.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 12:33 PM
Make sure to have the two front lines be Crusaders, with at least the second line having reach weapons.

why would you have ANY martial character withOUT reach weapons?
If it kills thing with a metal stick, it has a reach metal stick :P
#1 rule of martial optimization.

Morph Bark
2010-07-01, 01:00 PM
why would you have ANY martial character withOUT reach weapons?
If it kills thing with a metal stick, it has a reach metal stick :P
#1 rule of martial optimization.

Um, because people make specific builds that aren't all centered around reach weapons, and reach weapons don't generally threaten the immediate area around you?

Plus, most of these "sticks" are made of wood. The metal is the pointy thing at the end. If there even is a pointy thing.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 01:02 PM
Um, because people make specific builds that aren't all centered around reach weapons, and reach weapons don't generally threaten the immediate area around you?

key word is generally. besides... 5 ft step.

Can you show me a serious (that is, a legitimately powerful one made by an expert optimizer) CharOp melee build that doesn't use a reach weapon.

lsfreak
2010-07-01, 01:07 PM
key word is generally. besides... 5 ft step.

Can you show me a serious (that is, a legitimately powerful one made by an expert optimizer) CharOp melee build that doesn't use a reach weapon.

Prototypical ubercharger doesn't require it, though it helps. Total-AC-dump Robilar's Gambit ubercharger probably does with a keen bodyfeeder falchion to counteract his -20AC. Jack B. Quick. Most rogue builds.

EDIT: Snowflake Wardance bard. Shield-based crusader. Stormguard Warrior-based TWF.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 01:13 PM
Prototypical ubercharger doesn't require it, though it helps.

if it helps, then a CharOpper would use it. :)


Total-AC-dump Robilar's Gambit ubercharger probably does with a keen bodyfeeder falchion to counteract his -20AC.
Interesting... why? How does a falchion counteract bad AC?


Jack B. Quick. Most rogue builds.
Stormguard Warrior-based TWF
Oops. I forgot two weapon fighting... yea, those don't use reach. Only because AFAIK there are no reach weapons you can effectively TWF with. But yes, TWF is a valid alternative to reach weapon.


EDIT: Snowflake Wardance bard. Shield-based crusader.
I am not familiar with those, anyone has links to them?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 01:26 PM
key word is generally. besides... 5 ft step.

Can you show me a serious (that is, a legitimately powerful one made by an expert optimizer) CharOp melee build that doesn't use a reach weapon.

5-foot step with an army behind you? Not gonna happen.
Usually the first row dies, the second row has shields and the third reach weapons. Crossbowmen walk ahead, shoot and retreat.

lsfreak
2010-07-01, 01:38 PM
Spoilered for off-topic-ness:
Keen bodyfeeder falchion would have a crit range of 15-20, and on a crit you get half the damage you dealt back as temporary hit points. With Robilar's Gambit, you get a hit on anyone who hits you in melee. By the time you can pull it off, you should be doing a minimum of 60-80 damage a hit, so every fourth hit should give you that many temporary hit points back. Kaorti resin for double your normal (non-crit) hit in temporary hit points. Of course, I could see an argument be made that such a build wants a reach weapon to ensure he can get off attacks on someone with reach, though I'd prefer size-increases myself; depends on whether the DM for the campaign is more humanoid-oriented or monster-oriented.

Snowflake Wardance is generally a bard using Dragonfire Inspiration optimization + Snowflake Wardance, a feat from Frostburn, plus a Crystal Echoblade (MIC), plus Slippers of Battledancing (DMG2). Instead of Str to attack and damage, you end up with double your Cha to your attack roll and your Ch + 1/2 your bard level to your damage roll. Requires a one-handed slashing weapon to work, and is a very common form of bard optimization, since it still nets all of the normal DFI-boosting stuff.

Shield-based crusader is simply a crusader using a shield, standard shieldop (see Person Man's guide to shields), with ToB stuff like the two shield maneuvers and Faith Unswerving.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 02:41 PM
thank you. I concede that my generalization was over reaching and incorrect.
While reach is great, you have shown great builds that drop it in favor of other stuff.

As for army tactic... what about alternating between a guy with reach, and a guy with a shield and sword and ability to shield someone near them.
The reach guys will get AoO vs approaching enemies, once the enemy closed, each would be flaked by the sword and board guys, while he reach guys hit the next wave so to speak that is standing behind the first group.

Although, the idea would be to arm the reach guys with a spiked chain :P