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The Glyphstone
2010-07-01, 09:41 AM
Hypothetical situation: A conventional, low-optimization party encounters an unknown outsider. The fighter wades into melee, the rogue sneak around to flank, the cleric readies a heal - and the sorcerer makes a Knowledge: The Planes check. He has a couple different blasting spells known, of different elemental types, and wants to know which ones won't be a waste of time or actions. So he rolls good, enough for 2-3 pieces of information above the basic outsider traits, and asks the DM what its elemental resistances are (what he would consider 'useful'). The DM, on the other hand, wants the fight to be difficult - maybe the creature was intended to the the BBEG's Dragon, or at least a miniboss. So, he tells the sorcerer the following:
-It can spit acid at range.
-Its claws ooze paralyzing venom.
-It has very thick scales.

These are, technically, useful bits of information, but they're not useful to the sorcerer (except maybe the bit about acid spit), particularly in this particular situation. Is the DM being fair here, or should the PC have the privilege to decide what bits of information he would call to mind most easily, since they're what he views as most relevant?

Britter
2010-07-01, 10:11 AM
If the PC passes a check, I believe that they deserve to have the intent of the check come to pass. So, in this case, I would tell the player what he wanted his character to know.

Dogmantra
2010-07-01, 10:18 AM
I'd have one DC for general information, and one slightly higher DC for specific information. After all, it's a bit harder to remember your friend's favourite colour than it is to remember anything about them. It wouldn't be too much higher a DC though.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-01, 10:20 AM
I'd have one DC for general information, and one slightly higher DC for specific information. After all, it's a bit harder to remember your friend's favourite colour than it is to remember anything about them. It wouldn't be too much higher a DC though.

By those lines, I presume 'beating the dc for useful info by 5 gives you a bit of specific info' should be a fair usage. Otherwise...this is a very tricky situation :/

Eldariel
2010-07-01, 10:20 AM
DM defines "useful", of course, but I find it should be based on the class in question. A sorcerer, of course, cares about the creature's magical capabilities and resistances. That's what he studies first, because that's what affects him.

So if my Sorcerer has spent time studying Planar Lore and rolls high determining he has studied this particular creature to some extent or heard about it, he'll of course have first and foremost memorized the pieces of information relevant to him. In other words, its resistances and magical capabilities.

If a Fighter were rolling the Knowledge-check, he'd on the other hand learn the physical capabilities and resistances, along with any special melee threats it might possess.


Both would, of course, know about some particularly dangerous and unique ability it might have (say, Gorgon's Stone Gaze), since that's probably the very first thing you learn, but after that they'd gain the class specifics (e.g. SR, AC, DR, saves, etc. - not numbers, but weaknesses and strengths in those regards).

Saph
2010-07-01, 10:24 AM
DM defines "useful", of course, but I find it should be based on the class in question. A sorcerer, of course, cares about the creature's magical capabilities and resistances. That's what he studies first, because that's what affects him.

So if my Sorcerer has spent time studying Planar Lore and rolls high determining he has studied this particular creature to some extent or heard about it, he'll of course have first and foremost memorized the pieces of information relevant to him. In other words, its resistances and magical capabilities.

This. I usually try to tailor the Knowledge check results to the character. For instance, in the Test of Spite Monkening game, one of my players was playing a "Jaya Ballard", a burninator-style fire mage. So the first bit of information I'd always give her about any monster was whether it was or wasn't vulnerable to fire. :)

Amphetryon
2010-07-01, 10:26 AM
IMO, the example DM is obfuscating information unfairly. The player asked specifically about resistances, and should have gotten an answer pertinent to that query for having met the set DC.

Knowledge checks of this nature are, to my mind, analogous to recalling information for a surprise quiz your professor springs on you. The sorcerer in question tried to remember the answer to the question of resistances, and by the dice, did so successfully. There's no reason for the student taking the quiz to put "they have thick scales" down in response to that query if they read the question correctly and recalled the information accurately - which the Knowledge check indicates happened.

Cespenar
2010-07-01, 10:28 AM
DM defines "useful", of course, but I find it should be based on the class in question. A sorcerer, of course, cares about the creature's magical capabilities and resistances. That's what he studies first, because that's what affects him.

So if my Sorcerer has spent time studying Planar Lore and rolls high determining he has studied this particular creature to some extent or heard about it, he'll of course have first and foremost memorized the pieces of information relevant to him. In other words, its resistances and magical capabilities.

If a Fighter were rolling the Knowledge-check, he'd on the other hand learn the physical capabilities and resistances, along with any special melee threats it might possess.


Both would, of course, know about some particularly dangerous and unique ability it might have (say, Gorgon's Stone Gaze), since that's probably the very first thing you learn, but after that they'd gain the class specifics (e.g. SR, AC, DR, saves, etc. - not numbers, but weaknesses and strengths in those regards).

This makes the most sense, I think.

Then again, DMs are known to overrule much more critical things, so I wouldn't whine too much if this happened to me.

kamikasei
2010-07-01, 10:28 AM
What Dogmantra and Eldariel said. If someone's making a knowledge check, they're trying to remember the information they're concerned with. Unless that particular bit of information is harder to know than others about the creature (requiring a higher check), they should recall it ahead of other details.

Of course, the better approach would be to break down the relevant information for each creature according to DC and give all the information below the rolled check... but that's a fair bit of work and if done on the fly amounts to deciding whether you want the character to know something or not, back to square one.

Cicciograna
2010-07-01, 10:30 AM
The PC made a very specific question. This reflects into a higher DC than normal: if the PC rolls high enough to beat this DC he deserves to gain the info he requires. It could be bad for the DM, if he regarded the battle as an important one, but the player made the right decisions, is not stretching the rules and asked a perfectly valid question.

Compare to this situation. Imagine that someone was to solve a mathematical problem and the DM of the Universe required a "Knowledge (Math)" check for him to succeed: if the solver's check was high enough to beat the DC he would have the solution to the problem, not other informations regarding the nature of the problem itself.

By the way you, as a DM, can tweak the situation as you wish: for example, the PC gets the info he requires, but the monster is not a canonical member of its race. Perhaps he has slightly different elemental weaknesses, being stronger than the average against a particular element and weaker against another; perhaps he has some spell cast upon him that gives him particular resilience against elemental magic; or he can be a totally different creature in disguise, so the info the PC gets are completely useless.

Darkfire
2010-07-01, 10:30 AM
I picked up on this thread a while back that you may find useful as a way of gauging appropriate information to give depending on how successful the Knowledge check is: Monster Lore Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546370/Monster_Lore_Compendium). It could be worth showing it your DM.

The Big Dice
2010-07-01, 10:32 AM
So he rolls good, enough for 2-3 pieces of information above the basic outsider traits, and asks the DM what its elemental resistances are (what he would consider 'useful').
Knowing the traits of the type of Outsider the thing is tells you a lot about it's elemental resistances. The DM saying "It's a demon" along with thte other bits of info should tell you all you need to know about it's resitances and immunities.

Totally Guy
2010-07-01, 11:22 AM
I'm with Britter on this.

There's something rather odd about the suggestion that a Rogue using a knowledge skill is fundamentally different to a wizard using one. Surely that's something that should be reflected in the number's and not left to DM interpretation.

I'd be a little upset if I'd maxed an unusual knowledge skill just to be told that the DC would be higher because I'm not "wizardy" enough. That's surely a job for skill synergies.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-01, 11:50 AM
There's something rather odd about the suggestion that a Rogue using a knowledge skill is fundamentally different to a wizard using one. Surely that's something that should be reflected in the number's and not left to DM interpretation.

I'd be a little upset if I'd maxed an unusual knowledge skill just to be told that the DC would be higher because I'm not "wizardy" enough. That's surely a job for skill synergies.

It's not that the DCs change or anything, it's that the type of information you'd be interested in is different. Beating the DC by 5 gives you one piece of useful information, so if you're a rogue that piece might be "It has constant true seeing" so you know going invisible won't get you sneak attack, while if you're a blaster wizard that piece might be "It's immune to fire and electricity" so you don't use useless spells. If you beat the DC by enough to know everything, then obviously you'd find out everything.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-01, 11:55 AM
Knowing the traits of the type of Outsider the thing is tells you a lot about it's elemental resistances. The DM saying "It's a demon" along with thte other bits of info should tell you all you need to know about it's resitances and immunities.

That's part of why I just said "outsider" - if the creature isn't a Demon or Devil, its resistances could be anything, and even if it is, there's variation...devils are normally Fire-Immune, Acid/Cold resistant; a Chain Devil is Cold-Immune without any resistances, a Hellcat is only Fire Resistant. And there's dozens of outsiders that don't have a subtype.


It seems like a general agreement that in the given example, the PC asks for beneficial info and the DM who stonewalls him is a jerk. What if, though, the PC doesn't specifically request information? Is the responsibility on the DM to give the character information that is 'useful' specifically to them? Do they need to find info that'd be useful to any character? Can they deliver info that, while useless to the sorcerer, could help another party member (I.e., the Fighter might want to know the creature's scales are exceptionally thick, so he Power Attacks for less than normal - that's useful)?

aeauseth
2010-07-01, 11:59 AM
Reviewing some of the Knowledge Check info in Monster Manual IV and in the Knowing Your Enemy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060905a) post, it appears that the "useful bit of information" has nothing to do with your class.

Looking at the Monster Lore Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546370/Monster_Lore_Compendium?post_id=332152506#33215250 6) link provided above was very interesting.

Totally Guy
2010-07-01, 12:03 PM
It's not that the DCs change or anything, it's that the type of information you'd be interested in is different.

If I wanted a specific piece of information and that was my intent you're effectively saying no then. "Only an arcane practitioner would know that."

I'm simply extrapolating that that's bad practice, so effectively the only compromise is "...Unless you beat the DC by more!"

The Glyphstone
2010-07-01, 12:06 PM
Reviewing some of the Knowledge Check info in Monster Manual IV and in the Knowing Your Enemy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060905a) post, it appears that the "useful bit of information" has nothing to do with your class.

Looking at the Monster Lore Compendium (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546370/Monster_Lore_Compendium?post_id=332152506#33215250 6) link provided above was very interesting.

That first article actually has some good examples of what a 'jerk DM' would call 'useful'.



DC21 = Beholders are highly intelligent creatures, though extremely paranoid and xenophobic. There are numerous subspecies of beholders, each of which consider themselves superior to all others, including other beholders.

Unless you're fighting two beholders at once, how is this in any way helpful?



DC29 = Blink dogs and displacer beasts are natural enemies and attack each other on sight.


Um....if there's a displacer beast den nearby, maybe you can bargain with the dogs for their aid? Otherwise, so what?



DC19 = Bulettes can and do eat anything -- except elves. It dislikes the taste of dwarves and avoids them in favor of other prey. Bulettes can detect the presence of creatures by the subtle vibrations they make on the ground.

If your party is all humans, congratulations. The Tremorsense info is useful though.

The Cloaker is the only one where all the example information is actually useful. The others could all be replaced with something, possibly class-specific.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-01, 12:18 PM
If I wanted a specific piece of information and that was my intent you're effectively saying no then. "Only an arcane practitioner would know that."

I'm simply extrapolating that that's bad practice, so effectively the only compromise is "...Unless you beat the DC by more!"

Ah, I misunderstood. If you actually specify what you're trying to recall (say, "I'm making Knowledge check to see if that thing is immune to fire") and make the DC, then you should find that out if you beat the DC. Otherwise, if you just say "Ooh, scary monster! I make a Knowledge check!" then a good DM would extrapolate the kind of info you want based on your capabilities and give that to you. You'd have to be a jerk DM to actively impede characters' Knowledge checks by raising the DC, giving out useless information first like in the Know Your Enemy article, or otherwise.

Totally Guy
2010-07-01, 12:25 PM
If you actually specify what you're trying to recall (say, "I'm making Knowledge check to see if that thing is immune to fire") and make the DC, then you should find that out if you beat the DC. Otherwise, if you just say "Ooh, scary monster! I make a Knowledge check!" then a good DM would extrapolate the kind of info you want based on your capabilities and give that to you.

Absolutely. Intent is critically important in RPGs and it's often overlooked.:smallsmile:

Susano-wo
2010-07-01, 01:28 PM
I think, RAW, the knowledge is generic, and I would keep it that way, if the PC is asking a general Question, but if someone wants specific info, I don't think its unreasonable to tailor the info to that question.

Also, in relation to the beholder info: who says its only combat info? Beholder psychology could come in very handy for anticipating general behavior, and possibly voiding conflict.

balistafreak
2010-07-01, 02:30 PM
Personally, I would just let them Google it up. You can't rely on them not metagaming anyways by remembering a certain creature's statblock (I mean, how many old salts don't remember the beholder's antimagic ray-thingy?) - if they nail the DC, let them have it all.

Escheton
2010-07-01, 02:47 PM
Personally, I would just let them Google it up. You can't rely on them not metagaming anyways by remembering a certain creature's statblock (I mean, how many old salts don't remember the beholder's antimagic ray-thingy?) - if they nail the DC, let them have it all.

You mean which old salt isnt looking at the pdf on his laptop because the dm confiscated all the books right?