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Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 11:36 AM
I'm building a backup character for the gestalt campaign I'm playing in, and I decided to play around with the monk, and a need a second opinion on my build.


Here's the stich: my group is running a gestalt campaign with a homebrew twist. We're allowed to take any Prc we want, on both sides of the build even, but we must qualify for any Prc using class features from one side of the build (Bab, skills and feats from either side are ok). For instance I could take mystic theurge, but I'd have to be a wizard/cleric//barbarian for example. A Wizard//Cleric wouldn't qualify.

Furthermore, maneuvers from ToB are BANNED. Also it's a pain in the butt to get my DM to approve things (we're playing in a custom setting) from the settings books as well, so I avoided those.

We get +1 LA for free.

Finally most of his games end around level 10 or so, so I'm not too worried about epic levels or even close to 20.

So here's my build:
Race: Feral Mongrelfolk

Side one
Paladin 2/Ranger 2/fist of the forest 1/Gray Guard 10/Fist of the Forest 2/?? 3
o
Cloister Cleric 2/Monk 2/ Sacred First 10/Contemplative 6

Stats: (36 point buy)
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 20
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 6

Feats:
imp unarmed (monk 1), Stunning fist (monk 1), combat reflexes (monk 2), Two Weapon Fighting (Ranger 2), Law Devotion (in exchange for knowledge Domain), Combat casting (1), Greater Fort (1), Power Attack (1), Serenity (3), Weapon Focus (unarmed) (6), Superior Unarmed Strike (9), Freezing the Lifeblood (12), ?? (15), ?? (18)

Flaws:
2 flaws

Domains:
Celerity
Strength
(no deity, Concept: Need to be strong and fast to help people)

Alternative Class Features:
Ranger: Urban Tracker (from cityscape, campaign to take place almost entirely in a city), Arcane hunter (Complete Mage)


A little explanation:
I took the paladin for Wis to Saves, Ranger for Survival as a class skill (For FoF, Barbarian would have been better, but can't as lawful), and both to preserve BAB. This build gives me 1:1 BAB, Con and Wis to AC, 18 levels of cleric casting, several ways to improve my damage and accuracy +6 NA, fast healing 2, 2 claw attacks, and crazy saves.

Mongoose87
2010-07-01, 11:38 AM
If one side is doing Cleric casting, you might as well do your best to get 20 levels of it.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 11:46 AM
If one side is doing Cleric casting, you might as well do your best to get 20 levels of it.
I was thinking about that, well, at least 18 levels anyway, but I need to find an easy to qualify for 6 level 1:1 divine caster Prc. Contemplative maybe?

Telonius
2010-07-01, 11:48 AM
Paladin gets Cha to saves, not Wis. Ditch it unless you really want Grey Guard. Nevermind, didn't see that Serenity item.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 11:50 AM
Paladin gets Cha to saves, not Wis. Ditch it unless you really want Grey Guard.
Not with serenity, that switches all pally abilities to key off Wis instead of Cha. As an added bonus, it switches Cleric Turn attempts to Wis to. :D

Keld Denar
2010-07-01, 11:53 AM
Agreed. In fact, I'd go so far as to keep everything non-clericy on one side, and keep full caster progression on the other.

On the cleric side, I'd either do:

Cleric20
or
Cleric3/ChurchInquisitor6/SacEx1/Contemplative10
or
Cleric5/DivineOracle10/Contemplative5
or
Cleric6/RSoP5/SacEx9

Church Inquisitor, Sacred Exorcist, Contemplative, and Divine Oracle are all in Complete Divine.
All are fine options. The first keeps full progression of Turn Undead, which, with a little investment in gear, is pretty useful for Incorp undead or Evil Outsiders (with the application of the spell Turn Anathema from CChamp). The 2nd gets some really nice goodies from CI, turning you into a Dispel Magic beast and giving you a plot-breaking ability to auto-see through nearly all illusions. The 3rd has some nice defensive bonuses, the capstone of which gives you permanant Foresight at 15th level. Contemplative is a nice filler. The 4th keeps full turning like the first, but also tacks on some nice abilities. Shoe-horns in your domains though, although RSoP gives you a bonus one to make up for it.

On the other side, I wouldn't take more than a couple levels in Monk, although if you did, your cleric casting would make up for your shortcomings. Instead, a useful idea would be to splash in some Psionic (combine with Tashalatora) or get some full BAB classes with some nice features. Pious Templar, for example, gives you some bonus feats, Mettle, and a touch of Paladin casting to augement your Cleric casting. Tashalatora is in the Eberron book Secrets of Sarlona.

I like the Psionics idea though. Tash is strong on its own, and you would really benefit from things like Hustle and Dispelling Buffer. Maybe consider something like Monk2/PsyWar4/Slayer10/PsyWar+4 with Tash keyed off Slayer. Alternatively, Monk2/Ardent18 with Tash is pretty nice. If you did this, you'd have:

Cleric20 casting
Ardent20 manifesting (nearly, due to how Ardents learn powers)
Monk20 UAS, Armor, and Flurry

Thats not bad, is it?

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 12:07 PM
Agreed. In fact, I'd go so far as to keep everything non-clericy on one side, and keep full caster progression on the other.

On the cleric side, I'd either do:

Cleric20
or
Cleric3/ChurchInquisitor6/SacEx1/Contemplative10
or
Cleric5/DivineOracle10/Contemplative5
or
Cleric6/RSoP5/SacEx9

Church Inquisitor, Sacred Exorcist, Contemplative, and Divine Oracle are all in Complete Divine.
All are fine options. The first keeps full progression of Turn Undead, which, with a little investment in gear, is pretty useful for Incorp undead or Evil Outsiders (with the application of the spell Turn Anathema from CChamp). The 2nd gets some really nice goodies from CI, turning you into a Dispel Magic beast and giving you a plot-breaking ability to auto-see through nearly all illusions. The 3rd has some nice defensive bonuses, the capstone of which gives you permanant Foresight at 15th level. Contemplative is a nice filler. The 4th keeps full turning like the first, but also tacks on some nice abilities. Shoe-horns in your domains though, although RSoP gives you a bonus one to make up for it.

On the other side, I wouldn't take more than a couple levels in Monk, although if you did, your cleric casting would make up for your shortcomings. Instead, a useful idea would be to splash in some Psionic (combine with Tashalatora) or get some full BAB classes with some nice features. Pious Templar, for example, gives you some bonus feats, Mettle, and a touch of Paladin casting to augement your Cleric casting. Tashalatora is in the Eberron book Secrets of Sarlona.

I like the Psionics idea though. Tash is strong on its own, and you would really benefit from things like Hustle and Dispelling Buffer. Maybe consider something like Monk2/PsyWar4/Slayer10/PsyWar+4 with Tash keyed off Slayer. Alternatively, Monk2/Ardent18 with Tash is pretty nice. If you did this, you'd have:

Cleric20 casting
Ardent20 manifesting (nearly, due to how Ardents learn powers)
Monk20 UAS, Armor, and Flurry

Thats not bad, is it?
I've never been in a campaign that used psionics, and I don't even know in the exist in the world my DM built, I'll have to ask.

Prime32
2010-07-01, 12:40 PM
I've never been in a campaign that used psionics, and I don't even know in the exist in the world my DM built, I'll have to ask.Just call it magic. Lots of people do.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 12:52 PM
Ok, I took a cursory glance at psionics and my eyes went cross and my brain went fuzzy. I'd rather not learn a whole character type, even if the DM does allow it.

lsfreak
2010-07-01, 12:58 PM
Ok, I took a cursory glance at psionics and my eyes went cross and my brain went fuzzy. I'd rather not learn a whole character type, even if the DM does allow it.

You spend power points instead of spell slots. The PP spent = the level you'd get an equivalent spell as a wizard. A wizard gets a 5th level spell at 9th level, so a 5th level power costs 9 power points.

You can augment some spells a bit. This is basically metamagic, as is should have been. You can spend PP up to your caster level/manifester level.

Basically, it's very similar to Vancian casting that wizards/sorcs have.

2xMachina
2010-07-01, 01:24 PM
Huh, I always found Psionics easy.

In fact, I like it a LOT more than Vancian.

Keld Denar
2010-07-01, 01:26 PM
If you've ever played a video game RPG, you know how Psionics work. Power Points are you "mana", and manifesting powers depletes this pool. When you have no PP left, you can't manifest any more powers.

The only real rule to pay attention to is "YOU CAN'T SPEND MORE PP ON A POWER THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS". That kinda forces a cap that keeps a 1st level psion from blowing all of his PP for a 1/day nova. Otherwise, it works just like the magic system in say...Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy (any), or even WoW.

Augements are kinda a fun little adder to most of psionics. Its kinda like Kicker costs in M:TG. You can pay them, and if you do, you get a little extra bonus. Typical Augements add more damage dice, increased duration, or a stronger effect. Example, Expansion has 3 different augements. One increases the duration from minutes/lvl to 10 minutes/lvl for 2 extra PP, one increases size change from large to huge for 6 PP, and one changes the activation from a standard action to a swift action (like Quicken Spell) for 6 PP. You add each augement seperate, and you don't have to augement. When you finish figuring out what augements you want to apply, add up all the PP costs (base + augement1 + augement2 + etc), and as long as that total is less than your manifester level, you pay the PP and get the effect.

Oh, and just because its kinda really important and sometimes missed, YOU CAN'T SPEND MORE PP ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 01:39 PM
As awesome as the folks on this forum are, I've run into a bit of a sticking point. It seems like every build I try, someone recommends psionics; I get it, psionics are awesome and I promise to look into them at some point when I have like a week to read the multiple books on the system and read all the powers. Then I might build a psionic character for another campaign.

But PLEASE, can I get some advice on how to make THIS build better

gallagher
2010-07-01, 01:43 PM
on your monk side, make it a monk/psychic warrior. the other should be straight cleric

also, be a half-minotaur water orc. the half minotaur negates the penalty to wisdom from water orc, gives you alot of strength bonuses, yada yada.

you are now a punching maniac with the strength to overcome the lack of full BAB who buffs himself with psionic powers (pick stuff like truevenom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/truevenom.htm) on your fist. the other side will allow you to get full BAB and if Righteous Might lets you go up another size category (half minotaur water orc is large) and then you also cast divine strength, your total strength modifyer would be a +32 if you only originally put a 10 in strength. you can also heal yourself. travel domain will make you a furious punching machine


EDIT: ah you said no psionics after i started typing, didnt see it. sorry. even though you dont know psionics, this one is easy since psywarrior requires very little bookkeeping on his powers.

so then is there a feat that allows you to stack your monk and either ninja or scout levels? if you are planning on fighting things, you will need to have some type of way to deal extra damage (psionic warrior was the way i intended, especially cuz you will get pounce from that, but these guys work too)

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 02:01 PM
EDIT:
so then is there a feat that allows you to stack your monk and either ninja or scout levels? if you are planning on fighting things, you will need to have some type of way to deal extra damage (psionic warrior was the way i intended, especially cuz you will get pounce from that, but these guys work too)

Mostly through inflict spells (using the unarmed attack as the delivery mechanism) and combat boosting spells from the cleric. Due to the strength domain I can enlarge myself at level 1. I've also got the smite from the pally and the gray guard if they're evil (or, latter, even if they aren't due to the GG). I've also got feral trance for an extra 2 damage per attack and an extra attack, the sacred flames from the sacred fist, power attack (if I feel like the guy has a low Ac), and 2 secondary claw attacks from the feral template.

gallagher
2010-07-01, 02:24 PM
Mostly through inflict spells (using the unarmed attack as the delivery mechanism) and combat boosting spells from the cleric. Due to the strength domain I can enlarge myself at level 1. I've also got the smite from the pally and the gray guard if they're evil (or, latter, even if they aren't due to the GG). I've also got feral trance for an extra 2 damage per attack and an extra attack, the sacred flames from the sacred fist, power attack (if I feel like the guy has a low Ac), and 2 secondary claw attacks from the feral template.

yes, but those are limited supplies. with your secondary attacks, at higher levels you need pounce or a way to make full attacks every turn. just five foot stepping isnt enough. one way to mitigate not having this is by extra damage (which you have) but you want a way to have the extra damage that doesnt run out in case there is a middle-of-the-night encounter, where you have no spells and are out of your smites (since you dont have a whole lot of those anyway)

that is where SA, SS, and skirmish come into play. there are alot of things that are immune, but there are also alot of ways to get around those immunities

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 02:41 PM
yes, but those are limited supplies. with your secondary attacks, at higher levels you need pounce or a way to make full attacks every turn. just five foot stepping isnt enough. one way to mitigate not having this is by extra damage (which you have) but you want a way to have the extra damage that doesnt run out in case there is a middle-of-the-night encounter, where you have no spells and are out of your smites (since you dont have a whole lot of those anyway)

that is where SA, SS, and skirmish come into play. there are alot of things that are immune, but there are also alot of ways to get around those immunities
So that's why I'd have wands of Inflict, Enlarge and a few scrolls at latter levels, and make my attacks with my feet, head and elbows. Feral doesn't say that the claws have to be on my hands.

gallagher
2010-07-01, 02:42 PM
So that's why I'd have wands of Inflict, Enlarge and a few scrolls at latter levels, and make my attacks with my feet, head and elbows.

that one is up to you i guess. you will need to get wandstrike then

Keld Denar
2010-07-01, 02:47 PM
Doesn't Feral change your type to like, Monsterous Humanoid? If so, you lose the ability to Enlarge yourself, since Enlarge Person only works on vanillia Humanoids.

Honestly, how attached are you to the monk thing? I'd focus on something more full BAB oriented. Since ToB is banned, you could do this on a Dwarf chassis:

Fighter2/Ranger1/Barbarian2/Deepwarden2/ExoticWeaponMaster2/PiousTemplar10/X1

Deepwarden is nice because it swaps your Dex to Con for AC, meaning you don't need a high Dex (which you don't have). Wield a Dwarven Urgrosh in both hands. Its only a double weapon if you use it as such. Normally, you'll use it as a single 2handed weapon. Why the Urgrosh? Check out Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior). The first trick you want is Flurry of Strikes. This functions exactly as a monk's Flurry of Blows, except you can only perform it with a Spiked Chain or double weapon. Urgrosh is a double weapon, regardless of whether or not you use it as one. The other trick to pick up is Uncanny Blow. Uncanny Blow gives you 2x your Str bonus when using a 1handed exotic weapon in both hands. Read Urgrosh. It does count as a 1handed exotic weapon, because it you use it in one hand, you can't attack with both ends as if it were a double weapon. So, when you use your Urgrosh in a 2handed Power Attacky type fasion, you get 2x your Str bonus, instead of 1.5x.

Thats about as martially inclined as you are gonna get without losing the ability to cast cleric spells (due to various forms of Rage).

Hope it helps a bit.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 02:49 PM
that one is up to you i guess. you will need to get wandstrike then

Not for touch spells, you can already deliver a touch spell with an unarmed attack.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 02:51 PM
Doesn't Feral change your type to like, Monsterous Humanoid? If so, you lose the ability to Enlarge yourself, since Enlarge Person only works on vanillia Humanoids.

Really? Damn I missed that. Well back to the drawing board size increase I guess.

Keld Denar
2010-07-01, 02:57 PM
Well, at 9th level and up, you'll be able to cast Righteous Might, one of the strongest personal melee oriented buffs ever printed. It includes a size incease, massive bonuses to Str and Con, and DR. That plus Divine Power and Divine Favor are like, the holy trinity of cleric self buffs.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 03:05 PM
Well, at 9th level and up, you'll be able to cast Righteous Might, one of the strongest personal melee oriented buffs ever printed. It includes a size incease, massive bonuses to Str and Con, and DR. That plus Divine Power and Divine Favor are like, the holy trinity of cleric self buffs.

Yeah but I had planed to usually have enlarge on first so I'd be huge. And a wand of RM is a little pricey for a consumable.

2xMachina
2010-07-01, 03:07 PM
How do you feel about tacking on Half Minotaur for large?

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 03:13 PM
also, be a half-minotaur water orc.
BTW in this game, Half-minotaur is +2 LA, based on the logic that the Half ogre from the same book reappeared latter with the same higher LA. I could possibly get the DM to research a new spell, Enlarge Monstrous Humanoid, and place it on my domain list instead of EP, but then I wouldn't get the wand.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-01, 04:12 PM
at higher levels you need pounce or a way to make full attacks every turn.

How about a necklace of Natural attacks with throwing on it.

Or a wand of Lions Charge, and use that Ranger spell list, but that runs into money again.

Glimbur
2010-07-01, 04:38 PM
You could go cleric on one side, with one of the progressions Keld suggested, and Ranger*4/Sorcerer1/Dragon Disciple 10 on the other side. It's not a great PrC, but it has the advantage of being mostly passive bonuses. As a perk, by my reading of the Bonus Spells ability, you could get more cleric spell slots this way. It's 3/4 BAB, but Divine Power is all about fixing that. You could take a sorc spell like True Strike and some other handy first level spell that isn't CL dependent.

*Ranger because fighter is boring and barbarian rage is not helpful to spellcasting but ranger has skill points. Ranger 1,Barbarian with spirit lion totem from complete champion 1 and fighter 2 is probably a better approach, assuming no XP penalties for multiclassing. In fact, this entire plan kind of hinges on no XP penalties for multiclassing because of the dip in sorcerer to qualify for DD. You could go Duskblade 5 instead, I suppose.

Keld Denar
2010-07-01, 05:50 PM
Yeah but I had planed to usually have enlarge on first so I'd be huge. And a wand of RM is a little pricey for a consumable.

It should also be noted that multiple magical effects that change size never stack. Only the most dramatic is used.

So, you couldn't stack Enlarge Person with Righteous Might to become huge. Righteous Might, being superior, would overwrite Enlarge Person.

Same thing if you tried to Enlarge Person before Polymorphing into something.

gallagher
2010-07-01, 06:20 PM
It should also be noted that multiple magical effects that change size never stack. Only the most dramatic is used.

So, you couldn't stack Enlarge Person with Righteous Might to become huge. Righteous Might, being superior, would overwrite Enlarge Person.

Same thing if you tried to Enlarge Person before Polymorphing into something.
i know he isnt looking at psionics, but if you had, say, righteous might and expand on, but you pumped expand to 2 size increases, would you get the two size increases because it is larger than one, but the strength bonuses from righteous might because it is larger than the other one?

Fidelacchius
2010-07-02, 04:19 AM
You could go cleric on one side, with one of the progressions Keld suggested, and Ranger*4/Sorcerer1/Dragon Disciple 10 on the other side.

The problem with this is unless I find a race with ranger or sorcerer as a favored class (pretty bloody rare), I'm taking an exp penalty.

And besides, I'm kind of attached to the monk. I like the idea of a character who is effective (moderately so at least) even if you take every single piece of his gear away (which my DM is wont to do temporarily at least three times in a given game).

Secondly, I know what I've built here is less optimized than full Caster/Caster, but I'm playing in a pretty suboptimal group. I've got one Fighter//Knight, one Rogue//Fighter, one Rogue//Swashbuckler, and a Warmage//Favored Soul.

I guess I should have mad it clear, I want to play the character above, and I was wondering if there were any suggestions as to alternate feats/Prcs/races that would be better, minor alterations mostly. Keep in mind that builds which optimize after fifth level or so are of limited use, as the majority of game play will happen between 5 and 13th level if I'm lucky and 5 and 7th if we aren't.

I've already incorporated a few of your suggestions; switching from Kensai to contemplative on the off chance that I make it that far, and I'm dropping the Strength domain, but I don't know what other domain to pick up (maybe travel?).

Please help me make the above build better, rather than suggesting radically different builds.

paddyfool
2010-07-02, 04:30 AM
Looks like you'll be your group's powerhouse already... but Urban Ranger doesn't get Survival as a class skill; Gather Information replaces it on their skill list. You may want standard Ranger or some other Ranger variant instead.

Fidelacchius
2010-07-02, 05:11 AM
Looks like you'll be your group's powerhouse already... but Urban Ranger doesn't get Survival as a class skill; Gather Information replaces it on their skill list. You may want standard Ranger or some other Ranger variant instead.

Shoot, thanks for that catch.