That perfect Wish

[EvilElf]

I have been pondering for a long long time, how would one word their wish perfectly so it's hard or impossible for a GM to screw you over on it? Some of the facts that I have run across when talking with other players is to keep the wish simple, an example would be “I wish for x amount of gold in my pocket.” But what about those that want to wish for something a bit more powerful? Such as godhood, immortality, or some artifacts? Those are the really tricky ones. Here is some of the examples I have come up with that might work out. “I wish for the staff of the Magi to be in my possession, and that the last person who owned this staff and anyone they have ever known to forget about the staff entirely”
What other ideas has anyone else come up with when trying to come up with that perfect use for a wish spell?

[Dogmantra]

"I wish I had a GM who didn't try to screw over all my wishes" comes to mind.

But really, the best way to stop your wish from going awry is to stick to the things explicitly called out as being perfectly fine. After all, it's in the spell description that you might get a literal or partial interpretation if you try for anything more powerful.

[EvilJoe15]

I'd word it in simple RAW. As in "I wish for a +1 Inherent bonus to my Intelligence ability."

[Dairun Cates]

I'd word it in simple RAW. As in "I wish for a +1 Inherent bonus to my Intelligence ability."

That's the thing, unless you can think of AND stamp out every single conditional modifier that your GM can think of, there's ALWAYS a way to corrupt even the most innocuous wishes.

"Sure... We'll just take it out of your con score."

or...

"You *pointing to player* now have a +1 to intelligence and realize that you shouldn't try to outsmart the GM with game talk. Your character's guardian avatar probably now thinks better than short-changing the game with quick trips to power."

or...

"Sure... Here's a cursed item that makes you cluck like a chicken... but hey. It DOES give a +1 to intelligence."

or...

"Your intelligence is now a 12. You have a +1 inherent bonus to intelligence."

or...

"A Lich appears in front of your ready to teach you all he knows. You're an evil super-servant now, but hey. +1 to int."

Are these REALLY mean interpretations of the wish? Yes.
Do some of these stretch credibility? Yes.

But the point is... If your GM does not want you to have it, there is ALWAYS a way around it. Existence is infinite and there's always going to be some small problem...

Even if you wish for "I wish for <Insert Character's name> to have an intelligence score of <int + 1> that is gained solely by the magical effects of this spell and no outside forces or items without the loss of any other abilities or items (material or metaphysical) and without any change in my character's general mental health or alignment and most importantly without any negative OR positive connotations to other sentient or non-sentient entities in the world that may cause them to come find me."

Even THAT can be corrupted if your GM thinks about it enough.

[lsfreak]

But the point is... If your GM does not want you to have it, there is ALWAYS a way around it. Existence is infinite and there's always going to be some small problem...

Wish has a list of things that are GUARANTEED to work. If your DM corrupts your wish for one of those, get yourself a DM that isn't a power-hungry prick.

[2xMachina]

Not a GM, and I never got wishes before...

But I prefer the wish to fulfill it as well as it can. If you wish for something that's too powerful for the wish, it gives you part of it (within the wish limits).

Say, you want 1million GP? Wish gives you 15k and that's it.

[Dairun Cates]

Wish has a list of things that are GUARANTEED to work. If your DM corrupts your wish for one of those, get yourself a DM that isn't a power-hungry prick.

And +1 to Int is one of those bonuses, but if you're actually wording it instead of just casting the spell, you either:
A). Already got your +1 and don't want to have to cast 2 more wish spells to get a +2 total
B). Don't understand how the spell works and didn't decide to read up on it before casting.
C). Just want to see what your DM can come up with for the heck of it.

My point in that post is that if it's left up to your DM to decide the consequence instead of the game mechanics, even the simplest wish can be turned against you. There's NO Perfect wish. The best you can hope for is wishing for something your GM considers acceptable or trying to slow down how fast your DM will screw you.

You seemed to insinuate that just saying the Wish in SIMPLE game mechanics terms will save you. I just wanted to point out that this is far from the truth.

Saying: I wish my Base Attack Bonus was 20 is insanely corruptable (with the most obvious answer being to turn your Wizard into a level 20 fighter).

It gets even worse though, when you put on TOO many restrictions on a wish, you can also open up new loopholes.

For instance: I want X in my hand...

Can literally graft X into your hand.

[Seffbasilisk]

"I wish this story would have a happy ending."

[hangedman1984]

"I wish this story would have a happy ending."

you never specified for whom
mhahahahaha

[Funkyodor]

The way our DM has done wishes in the past was to consider the source. Wish from an evil Effreti, there's always a twist for the worse. Directly from a spell, literal translation. From a good source like Djinni or God, best possible outcome. Sometimes characters received cursed wish items. Like "make a wish, but it has to be a rhyming haiku." nonsense. The DM should consider the source of the Wish effect when trying to screw the character over.

[Dairun Cates]

The way our DM has done wishes in the past was to consider the source. Wish from an evil Effreti, there's always a twist for the worse. Directly from a spell, literal translation. From a good source like Djinni or God, best possible outcome. Sometimes characters received cursed wish items. Like "make a wish, but it has to be a rhyming haiku." nonsense. The DM should consider the source of the Wish effect when trying to screw the character over.

Honestly, giving an unlimited wish to a player is like putting the Deck of Many Things in your game. Most players are sensible enough to not go crazy (pulling 1-2 cards at most if any), and it's fun when you do the whole thing, but ultimately, the potential for completely destroying your campaign is too much.

So, I'd hand out a good wish as a VERY VERY near the end if not end of campaign reward and only do it on characters I don't expect my players to reuse.

[The Glyphstone]

"I wish for a sandwich."

It's the perfect 'is your DM a jerkface' test.:smallwink:

[afroakuma]

There's NO Perfect wish.

Amen to that. There was a thread in which I played the genie, corrupting every single wish presented (including the ones done up in painfully thorough legalese). While I agree that wishes within the reasonable scope of the spell should be accepted (provided they are worded properly and in-character), there are excesses which must be... curbed. :smallamused:

Also, I don't allow wishes for candles of invocation, no matter what their listed value claims. WotC is full of stupid from time to time, as that item illustrates vividly, and I never see reason to honor the game-breaking silliness of their mistakes.

[Radar]

"I wish this story would have a happy ending."
Better yet: "Let my inner desires be the good ones, and Happiness for Everyone!" :smalltongue:

[molten_dragon]

I had a em once that liked to mess around with wishes. I used the old standby "I wish you wouldn't grant this wish" and he stopped after that.

[CubeB]

If a DM doesn't want to give out wishes, then they should just ban the spell.

Easy. :D

[Tinydwarfman]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

[afroakuma]

"I wish you wouldn't grant this wish"

An efreeti pops up out of nowhere and says Granted.

The original being offering the wish did not grant the wish, another being granted it, therefore granting that the original being did not grant the wish.

"I wish this wish would not be granted" is better, but instead if causing a paradox, the being simply has to not declare "granted" or "not granted" as regards that particular wish, in perpetuity. Schroedinger's Wish, essentially. :smalltongue:

[lsfreak]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

"No can do, bub, I'm not that awesome. But this guy can."
And you suddenly find yourself standing before Asmodeus.

[Caliphbubba]

Wish has a list of things that are GUARANTEED to work. If your DM corrupts your wish for one of those, get yourself a DM that isn't a power-hungry prick.

This.

heck for the 5000 xp cost there ought to be SOME wishes that are guaranteeded to work.

[Tanuki Tales]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

That's easy. You're never directly affected by what you wished against but harm and misfortune befall you indirectly, magic affects you indirectly, you're constrained and controlled indirectly and influence is put over your being indirectly.

I.E.: The entire multiverse implodes and you're left in the void as the single piece of creation. Oh and magic went with the multiverse so have fun floating until you starve to death, suffocate or die of old age.

Of course you only mentioned your mind and body, never your soul. :smallwink:

[Tinydwarfman]

"No can do, bub, I'm not that awesome. But this guy can."
And you suddenly find yourself standing before Asmodeus.

So you're saying that since you can't find a way to pervert the wish, you're just going to not grant it and screw over the player anyway? Huh. Well, I concede defeat to genius. You truly have won.

[Lord Vampyre]

Generally, I remove Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle from any spell repertoire if I'm running the game. It's the concept that I don't like. On that note I allow players to develop spells that replace what they wanted to do with a Wish spell.

If I do give the players a "wish", it is to enhance the game in some fashion. As a matter of fact, I rarely reveal that they have a wish in their possession. I am normally just waiting for them to say something in or out of game using the word wish. I then allow something coincidental to happen.

I have seen too many DMs allow players to abuse the wish. In 2ed, I had a character with a score of 25 in every stat except Cha. My Cha was only 22, all because my DM in an epic campaign allowed me to abuse rings of wishes.

It really depends on the DM, but the DM can either mess with the players or allow horrible abuse of the wish, no matter how they word it. They're the DM, and wishes don't always work the way players think they do.

I mean just look at Jafar in the second Alladin movie. If you wish to have something, you could either be taken to it or have it brought to you. I've played with a number of DMs that required additional wishes to be used if there was any kind of conditional modifier on the wish such as and/or/but/not.

The point is, you can never out think the DM, unless he allows you to.

[Mr.Moron]

"I wish that this wish won't be granted"

[afroakuma]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

Granted
...but the magic of the wish is shorted out by your requirement that no magic can effect you, and thus your wish flares and dies (as do your protections) in an instant. Then bears eat you.


"I wish that this wish won't be granted"

Granted
...two minutes ago. It will never be granted in the future, though, rest assured. :smallwink:

Oh, the power of grammar.

[Tanuki Tales]

Aw, I'm the only one who came up with a plausible perversion of his uber protection wish.

Since harm and misfortune befell the multiverse, not his character, and he's just stuck with the pure facts of mystical psuedo-physics after everything went belly up.

[2xMachina]

I wish to replicate Prestidigitation!

(Seriously, the DM's a jerk if they screw with that)

[Lord Vampyre]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

Easy, your character is suddenly teleported to a demiplane with only him in it. Nothing else exists except for him. It is a gray void where he will exist for the rest of eternity.

The problem comes down to the interpretation of misfortune. What the wizard interprets as being misfortunate may not be what the being or power granting the wish interprets as being misfortunate.

[Tanuki Tales]

Easy, your character is suddenly teleported to a demiplane with only him in it. Nothing else exists except for him. It is a gray void where he will exist for the rest of eternity.

The problem comes down to the interpretation of misfortune. What the wizard interprets as being misfortunate may not be what the being or power granting the wish interprets as being misfortunate.

Nothing stops anything from Planeshifting in and killing him horribly or at least giving him a paper cut, so the wish wasn't even really granted and perverted.

[2xMachina]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

It emulates 1 of: Stonebody (or whatever DR spell), (a luck spell), Spell Turning, Freedom of Movement or Mind blank.

[Tanuki Tales]

It emulates 1 of: Stonebody (or whatever DR spell), (a luck spell), Spell Turning, Freedom of Movement or Mind blank.

Again, that's not emulating the worded wish in full and perverting it, that's just the wish fizzling when it reaches a DM fiated acceptable result.

[Lord Vampyre]

Nothing stops anything from Planeshifting in and killing him horribly or at least giving him a paper cut, so the wish wasn't even really granted and perverted.

Yes it does, because the demiplane is only in his imagination. Therefore, nothing in his imagination can harm him unless he wants it to. Now if you figure he actually suffers from some form of self hatred, he will probably kill himself.

Plus you're forgetting the absolutely NOTHING exists in this demiplane except the wizard.

[2xMachina]

Nothing in wish says it must grant the wish in full.

It only does what it can.

It's like having a rich/powerful person owing you 1. He can give you stuff you ask for, but not more than he can.

[afroakuma]

No mere wish can destroy the multiverse.

You can just visit unimaginable horror on specific individuals.

[lsfreak]

So you're saying that since you can't find a way to pervert the wish, you're just going to not grant it and screw over the player anyway? Huh. Well, I concede defeat to genius. You truly have won.

Sorry, that was part joke, and partly only if the wish had been asked of an evil creature. There are limits as to what wish can do, and that wish was way beyond what I see wish as actually being able to do.

[Morph Bark]

You know why your momma always used to tell you "be careful with what you wish for"?

This (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsTtoZ.html#wish) is why.

[Kylarra]

Again, that's not emulating the worded wish in full and perverting it, that's just the wish fizzling when it reaches a DM fiated acceptable result.Partial fulfillment is an acceptable perversion of a wish. Perhaps not the one sought after by the poster, but per RAW, acceptable. :smallwink:

[TroubleBrewing]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

I (as the genie) turn you into a gust of wind. Wind cannot be harmed, contained, influence, and misfortune has no effect on it.

[Tanuki Tales]

Yes it does, because the demiplane is only in his imagination. Therefore, nothing in his imagination can harm him unless he wants it to. Now if you figure he actually suffers from some form of self hatred, he will probably kill himself.

Plus you're forgetting the absolutely NOTHING exists in this demiplane except the wizard.


You never said the first bit. And that doesn't fix your problem because things like Quori could still enter the demi-plane and kill him.

Yes, nothing exists naturally until something comes there.

So you didn't pervert his wish, you just failed to grant it as stated.

@Machina: Um, no, that's now how Wish works. Wish has set limits on what it can reasonably do and then anything greater than that is up to the DM to mitigate and adjudicate. So the Wish spell by RAW has no limits on what it can do, only by RAI.

@Akuma: As I just said above, Wish has no upper ceiling unless Fiated so. And I never said the Wish spell did it, just that it happened.

@Ky: You're still failing to fully fulfill the wish and thus the wish is not perverted.

@Grey: Until the planet dies off or a hole in the ozone is made and all the atmosphere ignites and burns away.

[2xMachina]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

[Kylarra]

@Ky: You're still failing to fully fulfill the wish and thus the wish is not perverted.By your personal beliefs perhaps, but not by the wording of the wish spell. A partial fulfillment is a perversion of your original intent.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)


edit:swordsaged

[Lord Vampyre]

[QUOTE=Bendraesar;8827505]And that doesn't fix your problem because things like Quori could still enter the demi-plane and kill him.

Yes, nothing exists naturally until something comes there.

So you didn't pervert his wish, you just failed to grant it as stated.
QUOTE]

As a matter of fact it does. As long as the DM has determined that nothing can enter the plane, then nothing ever will. You really are over thinking it.

Edit: The point is that the game is essentially over for that character.
Edit:Edit: The character has effectively killed himself without killing himself.

[erikun]

I wish to replicate Prestidigitation!

(Seriously, the DM's a jerk if they screw with that)
Congratulations, you are now a Living Prestidigitation. :smallbiggrin:

The "Perfect Wish" will be one that gets you what you want without being disruptive to the overall plot. In other words, one which the DM has a good reason to grant but no real reason to deny. Anything more and your DM will likely pervert it somehow; any less and you're not getting all you can out of your wish.

Needless to say, it depends on the DM. With some of them, perhaps "I wish I hadn't cast that spell" would be the most appropriate. :smalltongue:

[Tanuki Tales]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Which is DM Fiat. The DM decides if it perverts or isn't fully fulfilled, not the spell.

Regardless, lack of fulfillment =/= perversion.

@Ky: Erm, in your personal opinion, not in the spell's or even the user who provided the original situation.

@Vamp: That's DM fiat, not perversion of the Wish. (In so much that you're adding new addendums to your scenario as their loop holes are pointed out) And nothing stops the guy from tripping over his own two feet and breaking his nose on the ground.

I'm not over thinking it, I just gave an actual total fulfillment of his wish and then had it perverted while others have thus far only given partial fulfillment.

[2xMachina]

Wish has limits. It CAN NOT grant you everything, even if they wanted to.

[Tanuki Tales]

Wish has limits. It CAN NOT grant you everything, even if they wanted to.

No, the DM imposes limits. That's exactly why the wording of the spell leaves it up to the DM to decide what happens if you go over the recommended limits.

I have still been the only one to grant his wish in full and pervert it.

[2xMachina]

Do you believe a 9th lvl spell has the power to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING?

I don't believe so.

[Tanuki Tales]

Do you believe a 9th lvl spell has the power to do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING?

I don't believe so.

Any old 9th level spell? No.

A 9th level spell regulated mostly by DM Fiat and in some ways superior to Miracle because from a story element point its not limited to the power of a deity, which in most forms of fiction have been shown to not be omnipotent in their power? Yes.

Wish's only true limit in power is what the DM says so. So when a player casts Wish they can access the infinite cosmic power that a DM possesses in so far as the DM allows them to have access.

[Thelas]

Okay, here's my current working attempt at an unbreakable wish. It's almost certainly still breakable at this point, but everyone here can probably think of ways to fix it as well.

Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron (go grab the web enhancement for MotP for reference if you aren't aware of the language's peculiarities) that does not create a full and complete sentence at any point until the end (this includes any subset of symbols or words (including parts of symbols), even out of order, such that no part of the wish can be fulfilled by itself for grammatical reason). It has been reproduced here in English, because unlike all my Wizard PCs (and most of my others), I don't speak Modron.



I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.

[Another_Poet]

"I wish I had a GM who didn't try to screw over all my wishes" comes to mind.

This, but I'd take a more Psy Ops approach.

"I wish that the powers that control the multiverse will be merciful and friendly toward me, generally making my life far easier than it otherwise would be, for as long as I exist."

Ha ha ha. The GM is all prepared for your carefully lawyered 5-paragraph run-on-sentence Wish and your efforts to fanaggle every edge you can get out of him. Then you wish for that, so moderate and trusting in his good judgment to make your wish come true. He has all the power - no obligation to give you any particular thing, since nothing specific was put in the spell.

But he doesn't want to look like a jerk after you make the most reasonable, unassuming Wish ever worded. REVERSE PYSCHOLOGY FOR THE WIN.

Just see how many times a soft-spoken, "Would that Wish I made help me here at all?" can be uttered before he finally catches on that you abused it and shuts you down.

I bet you could milk it for 5 levels or more.

[Ormagoden]

"I wish that I get exactly what I want for my next wish. No funny business and no loose interpretations."

[Thelas]

"I wish that the powers that control the multiverse will be merciful and friendly toward me, generally making my life far easier than it otherwise would be, for as long as I exist."

Ha ha ha. The GM is all prepared for your carefully lawyered 5-paragraph run-on-sentence Wish and your efforts to fanaggle every edge you can get out of him. Then you wish for that, so moderate and trusting in his good judgment to make your wish come true. He has all the power - no obligation to give you any particular thing, since nothing specific was put in the spell.

But he doesn't want to look like a jerk after you make the most reasonable, unassuming Wish ever worded. REVERSE PYSCHOLOGY FOR THE WIN.

Just see how many times a soft-spoken, "Would that Wish I made help me here at all?" can be uttered before he finally catches on that you abused it and shuts you down.

I bet you could milk it for 5 levels or more.
My wish above is basically the "5-paragraph run-on-sentence" version of that, except with more forcing him to do what I want...

Also, Psychology, not Pyschology.

[Thelas]

"I wish that I get exactly what I want for my next wish. No funny business and no loose interpretations."

Self-contradictory, unless your wish is in modron.
Also breakable by use of the genie mind-raping himself, though I won't go into details on how because it should be easy enough to work out.


Also, all these swordsages are getting annoying.

[Lord Vampyre]

Wish's only true limit in power is what the DM says so. So when a player casts Wish they can access the infinite cosmic power that a DM possesses in so far as the DM allows them to have access.

Truer words have never been spoken. Which I did mention earlier, just not in so many words.

[2xMachina]

Sigh.

Wish, stronger than even the most Epic spell ever crafted (with cheese).

[Ormagoden]

Self-contradictory, unless your wish is in modron.
Also breakable by use of the genie mind-raping himself, though I won't go into details on how because it should be easy enough to work out.


Also, all these swordsages are getting annoying.

If I sit at the table where a genie mindrapes itself to get out of a wish. I'd promptly gather my things and leave. The DM obviously doesn't understand the spirit of the game.

[Lord Vampyre]

"I wish that I get exactly what I want for my next wish. No funny business and no loose interpretations."

This really is assuming that you get more than one wish. Good Luck.

[Quietus]

I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered



At which point your Wish terminates. Taking the 150-160 WPM standard of audiobooks, that's 16 words per 6 seconds. I've given you 25, assuming you spoke quickly. You have one standard action; 6 seconds, no more. I can give you a partial fulfillment per RAW, and thus I give you the partial fulfillment of "As much as you could saw in 6 seconds". As the screw-over? Since this is spoken and the two are phoenetically similar, "Witch" can no longer or have ever been interfered. This is limited to your lifetime, or the lifetime of the one giving you the Wish. Somewhere, someone named Witch is living a life free of interference thanks to your Wish.

[EvilElf]

So from what I have gathered from what everyone is saying, is that the hard part of getting a well planned out wish is always going to be what kind of DM are we dealing with here. Is it one that will screw you over on any wish you try and cast, or just ones that will break the game. So let me try this wish on for size.
Simple Wish: "I wish for a bag that when I reach my hand into the bag I pull out a food or drink item of my choice that is not deadly or harmful in any way possible, also that the bag itself can't cause me harm directly or indirectly."
Game breaking Wish "I wish for a ring of infinite self activating true resurrection spells, that always work flawlessly and return me to my same body body I had before the death that triggered the spell to go off."

[Thelas]

If I sit at the table where a genie mindrapes itself to get out of a wish. I'd promptly gather my things and leave. The DM obviously doesn't understand the spirit of the game.

We aren't at a real gaming table.
I probably wouldn't have a genie mindrape itself (or anything mindrape itself, for that matter, save perhaps a BBEG if we were doing a crazy-optimization-game) at my table, but from my understanding this is a theoretical exercise to create an unbreakable wish.

[2xMachina]

We aren't at a real gaming table.
I probably wouldn't have a genie mindrape itself (or anything mindrape itself, for that matter, save perhaps a BBEG if we were doing a crazy-optimization-game) at my table, but from my understanding this is a theoretical exercise to create an unbreakable wish.

Ah, the Light gambit.

[Volthawk]

Ah, the Light gambit.

What's the Light gambit?

[lsfreak]

What's the Light gambit?

Light, from Death Note.

Purposefully wipe your memory, with a guaranteed de-wiper later on down the road. While memory is wiped, the BBEG genuinely believes they are not the BBEG, and can essentially roam free. Including trying to stop himself from being the BBEG.

[2xMachina]

What's the Light gambit?

Death Note.

Mind wipe self so that he doesn't know he's the Villain, thus no one can find out. He sets a trigger to regain the memories, and then proceed to be BBEG when people believe he is innocent.

Ninjaed. And spoiler as cued.

[AgentofOdd]

"I wish that the powers that control the multiverse will be merciful and friendly toward me, generally making my life far easier than it otherwise would be, for as long as I exist."Wouldn't this wish be fulfilled if you had one moment of happiness, then died in your sleep?

Another possibility is turning that person into an immortal sea sponge, or something.

[EvilElf]

Another possibility is turning that person into an immortal sea sponge, or something.

an immortal sea sponge with PC levels? Dear god man!

[Ormagoden]

We aren't at a real gaming table.
I probably wouldn't have a genie mindrape itself (or anything mindrape itself, for that matter, save perhaps a BBEG if we were doing a crazy-optimization-game) at my table, but from my understanding this is a theoretical exercise to create an unbreakable wish.

No, its actually a thread about other wishes that other people have come up with when attempting to get a perfect wish.

[Thelas]

At which point your Wish terminates. Taking the 150-160 WPM standard of audiobooks, that's 16 words per 6 seconds. I've given you 25, assuming you spoke quickly. You have one standard action; 6 seconds, no more. I can give you a partial fulfillment per RAW, and thus I give you the partial fulfillment of "As much as you could saw in 6 seconds". As the screw-over? Since this is spoken and the two are phoenetically similar, "Witch" can no longer or have ever been interfered. This is limited to your lifetime, or the lifetime of the one giving you the Wish. Somewhere, someone named Witch is living a life free of interference thanks to your Wish.

Um.
No.
Modron, remember?
Mathematically precise "perfect" language free of any difficulties in interpretation, such as pronounciation?
And tail-structured variant, as I specified, such that no partial segment of the wish can be broken off like you tried to?
AND I used "symbol", meaning that this is written.
AND it's not English, anyways, it's Modron, so "wish" and "witch" most likely sound completely different.
AND tail-recursive clause would almost certainly be placed first in Modron (hopefully with just one symbol if at all possible - note the "fractions of symbols" clause before you try to break that too.)

In any case, due to some OTHER problems with the wish (thank you Term1nally S1ck for pointing out I still need to work on my wish-design a bunch (he found about four ways - we're not sure how many of them actually break it, so I'm eliminating them all explicitly), please note that there is now a revised version to be used, below.




Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron (go grab the web enhancement for MotP for reference if you aren't aware of the language's peculiarities) that does not create a full and complete sentence at any point until the end (this includes any subset of symbols or words (including parts of symbols), even out of order, such that no part of the wish can be fulfilled by itself for grammatical reason). It has been reproduced here in English, because unlike all my Wizard PCs (and most of my others), I don't speak Modron.



I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge of both the circumstances and all the effects that will be created, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect, direct or indirect, on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur; that in addition to all of the above no chain of events can ever occur that even under the same conditions as above there is no solution that I would view as both "positive" and "the most positive possible" that can occur.

[afroakuma]

I do so despise when you wishers wish in alternate, "logical" tongues. It takes a good deal of the fun out of it.

Your wish is taken and "perverted" most horribly:

Granted
You are forever and eternally mentally trapped inside a single non-time point of no measurable or definable duration or timestamp, as you are bombarded forever by your own clause regarding reevaluation of the granting of this wish. Note that since this effect is a byproduct of this clause's very existence, and not actually a function of your wish itself nor any perversion thereof, nor of the granting agency, you cannot choose to bypass it, choose to have the granting of your wish reconfigured in such a way as to avoid this fate, or otherwise escape from the exponentially-growing logic bomb within your own mind. Assuming that there is, indeed, an end to the infinity you will spend with the bored, droning voice of your granting agency placing interminable demands upon your conscious deliberation within this non-point of time, you will very likely wish to die or otherwise have been rendered completely and utterly insane by the deluge of information.

Do note, however, that a wish with multiple clauses is likely too complex for anything more than partial fulfillment, as yours certainly is; further, note that any of the three effects you are wishing for are well beyond the uppermost bounds of safe fulfillment, therefore your wish is liable to be shredded, mashed into pulp and then given back to you in the form of a dog biscuit. Just because you wish for your wish not to be twisted does not mean that it must be done as you state, even in Modron, because a wish that transcends the safe limits need not be completely followed by its very nature.

[aje8]

Thelas and afroakuma: Interesting perfect wish and incredibly nice subversion. The clause I like to add to my Wishes is the Spirit of the Law Clause. That is, I create a big bunch of legalese granting me ultimate power in the universe and then follow it with something like, "And that this wish is granted such that the effects of this wish follow not only the text written here but also the spirit behind the words as defined by me personally and the interpertation I intended when making this wish." The advantage of this is that if they subvert the intent of the wish they inherently are not granting the wish. Although, Afro is welcome to demonstrate to me the subversion of such a wish. I be no means think it's perfect, just that it takes some consideration to mess with.

[afroakuma]

Pssh, easy peasy. "The words as defined by you" does not locate which "you" in a temporal sense. I consult with "you" as a baby for definitions of each word, then determine that you're either looking for mammaries or thinking of fecal matter or vomit. After that, the interpretation of "your" wish depends on whether I'm feeling nice or not.

There is no wish I cannot screw with. There is no wish incorporating anything resembling sub-clauses or legalese that I will not screw with. Your legalese can always be turned against you, or at the absolute worst render your wish either self-terminating or impossible to grant in any fashion.

[Thelas]

I do so despise when you wishers wish in alternate, "logical" tongues. It takes a good deal of the fun out of it.

Your wish is taken and "perverted" most horribly:

Granted
You are forever and eternally mentally trapped inside a single non-time point of no measurable or definable duration or timestamp, as you are bombarded forever by your own clause regarding reevaluation of the granting of this wish. Note that since this effect is a byproduct of this clause's very existence, and not actually a function of your wish itself nor any perversion thereof, nor of the granting agency, you cannot choose to bypass it, choose to have the granting of your wish reconfigured in such a way as to avoid this fate, or otherwise escape from the exponentially-growing logic bomb within your own mind. Assuming that there is, indeed, an end to the infinity you will spend with the bored, droning voice of your granting agency placing interminable demands upon your conscious deliberation within this non-point of time, you will very likely wish to die or otherwise have been rendered completely and utterly insane by the deluge of information.


Oh gods, how did I miss this one when I was trying to get this working?
Well, due to the 'distinct' clause, it can't be infinite (unless you can come up with an algorithm to produce an infinite number of valid, meets-what's-written interpretations, even given Modron), thankfully, but still, that works.
Sadly.
Now, if we're going to be very strict in the reading (hint: we are), assuming I make it through, the most preferable event happens as soon as I choose an interpretation.
And THAT would be a pet pun-pun, who proceeds to teleport to me, cure my insanity, and then I have a pet pun-pun.
Still needs to be fixed, though, so fixed version is coming up at the end of this post
Also, as soon as we finish with this Wish, this is going into my personal campaign rules as exactly what a "DM" is and how they are created, because I like it.

Well, AA (and others), here's Version 3.0 for your breaking pleasure...

Yes, it's still in Modron, as before, my most sincere apologies, but I hate hate HATE the partial fulfillment clause, hence the use of bizarre grammatical variants of Modron (idea from Doc Roc, when he mentioned it for something else, btw, so...)



Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron (go grab the web enhancement for MotP for reference if you aren't aware of the language's peculiarities) that does not create a full and complete sentence at any point until the end (this includes any subset of symbols or words (including parts of symbols), even out of order, such that no part of the wish can be fulfilled by itself for grammatical reason). It has been reproduced here in English, because unlike all my Wizard PCs (and most of my others), I don't speak Modron.



I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge of both the circumstances and all the effects that will be created, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect, direct or indirect, on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, and in descending order from most to least probable, determined to the best of your (1) abilities and with granting you (1) perfect information, in the same manner as above, which is removed upon completion of the granting of this wish, in Modron, and asked for my approval, which will be determined as it would if I was hale in both mind and body - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur; this REPL (3) is applied first to itself (including this statement) and then to the parts of the wish that do not include itself; that in addition to all of the above no chain of events can ever occur that even under the same conditions as above there is no solution that I would view as both "positive" and "the most positive possible" that can occur.

(1) "you" is the "wish-granting entity" or the forces of the multiverse, depending on the type of wish. substitute it as such. (2)
(2) footnotes are not actually part of the wish, just a quick clarification of stuff.
(3) REPL is a programming term - here we use it to mean the methods used to allow for recursive interpretation verification






There is no wish I cannot screw with. There is no wish incorporating anything resembling sub-clauses or legalese that I will not screw with. Your legalese can always be turned against you, or at the absolute worst render your wish either self-terminating or impossible to grant in any fashion.

See, people? This is why you send all your wishes to the boards, whether you intend to use them in a game or not. (I don't, except maybe as plot backstory as to my definition of what a "DM" is, see above)
It WILL get broken if you don't test it.
It is almost certainly true that there is "no wish that cannot be screwed with". It's almost certainly possible to screw with any given wish, and the perfect wish is almost certainly unattainable. (I say "almost" because who knows, maybe someone will come up with a thing.)
But if I can get this thing refined to a point where even AA and you others can't break it (in a reasonable time period), I'll consider it "close enough to perfect for all practical purposes", even if I'll still keep trying to revise it to get rid of every loophole I see.

AA: We'll see just how much you can break my wishes... we'll see. (Though I'm going to go over it more carefully now, try to see how much I can clarify.) And both TS and Doc Roc seem to think this is pretty solid, so it should run out of "easy" breaks (like that last one) any time now.

And making it explicit instead of implicit here... the caster (and subject) is a high-level wizard. (17+).

Also, to all, we've seen the "the universe responds to your wish by making a scroll appear in front of you. in beautiful, perfect writing, it reads "tl;dr"." response, so please, try to pervert the wish, not just deny it altogether - the latter isn't useful to anyone involved.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I have been pondering for a long long time, how would one word their wish perfectly so it's hard or impossible for a GM to screw you over on it? Some of the facts that I have run across when talking with other players is to keep the wish simple, an example would be “I wish for x amount of gold in my pocket.” But what about those that want to wish for something a bit more powerful? Such as godhood, immortality, or some artifacts? Those are the really tricky ones. Here is some of the examples I have come up with that might work out. “I wish for the staff of the Magi to be in my possession, and that the last person who owned this staff and anyone they have ever known to forget about the staff entirely”
What other ideas has anyone else come up with when trying to come up with that perfect use for a wish spell?

Its not really possible, The DM can and should simply have the universe squish you. There is no reason to try and screw up the game with a super wish except to be a jackass. In say the example you give by trying to directly erase the memories of those people they get a save. Or you may forget about the staff. "the last person and anyone else"=everyone including you.

For any kind of major super wish, I'd require the request a week in advance, after all if you get six months to perfect your wish I should at least get a week to find a loop hole.

Lastly

The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.

That last line is the ultimate out, you can maybe get around the words being twisted against you but you can't get past partial fulfillment.


If I sit at the table where a genie mindrapes itself to get out of a wish. I'd promptly gather my things and leave. The DM obviously doesn't understand the spirit of the game.

What about the player who wants the perfect wish to break the game or otherwise trainwreck the entire campaign. Maybe the selfish player with his selfish wish is to blame and not the DM who wants to keep the game going.

The perfect wish is clever, useful for the situation but not gamebreaking in any fashion. If you don't want you wish screwed over with don't make a wish that screws over the game, period.

I once had an entity named Braxis explain the nature of wish along with its cousins reality revision and miracle to the party

"When using wish you are attempting to reshape reality to your own ends, reality finds this irriatating and only after centuries of research have the safe pragmatics been defined. Words must be chosen correctly when attempting a greater wish for if reality can not be reshuffled to accommodate your desire reality will expel you. For the mentalist power reality revision the same rules apply.

Miracle is a different matter in this case the cleric attempt to ask their god for the desired change. It is much safer as your deity acts as a buffer. However the deity can deny your 'wish' no matter how you word it. The basic
moral of the story is, don't F with reality you'll lose"

[Zeful]

I wish that no harm or misfortune ever befalls me, no magics, not even the divine could effect me, nothing except myself could constrain or control me, or hold influence over my mind or body.

Pervert that wish. (note that I am an evil wizard, or I would have done the same for my loved ones.)

Since literal and partial fullfillment are allowed:

Literal: You are imprisoned as the spell. This is an (Ex) effect with an instantaneous duration and is undispelable. A god could free you, because there powers are simply better than Wish will ever be.

Partial: Your wish is granted as "I wish that harm or misfortune befalls me."

[Lord Vukodlak]

Since literal and partial fullfillment are allowed:

Literal: You are imprisoned as the spell. This is an (Ex) effect with an instantaneous duration and is undispelable. A god could free you, because there powers are simply better than Wish will ever be.

Partial: Your wish is granted as "I wish that harm or misfortune befalls me."
The wish could also cancel its self out because nothing can effect him. He could also permanently lose all his magic as one can argue you can't use magic with out being effected by it.

*Fun thing to do, when a player makes a cheesy game breaking wish, say "Whom ever comes up with a way to pervert it gets 5,000xp"*

[Thelas]

For any kind of major super wish, I'd require the request a week in advance, after all if you get six months to perfect your wish I should at least get a week to find a loop hole.

Made that wish tonight -> you should get at least *proportionality caluculation* 1/24 of a night, so we'll say half an hour.


That last line is the ultimate out, you can maybe get around the words being twisted against you but you can't get past partial fulfillment.

Eh...
Did you not see my clause about substrings &c in the preamble describing the language? That deals with partail fulfillment, I do believe.

[aje8]

Pssh, easy peasy. "The words as defined by you" does not locate which "you" in a temporal sense. I consult with "you" as a baby for definitions of each word, then determine that you're either looking for mammaries or thinking of fecal matter or vomit. After that, the interpretation of "your" wish depends on whether I'm feeling nice or not.

There is no wish I cannot screw with. There is no wish incorporating anything resembling sub-clauses or legalese that I will not screw with. Your legalese can always be turned against you, or at the absolute worst render your wish either self-terminating or impossible to grant in any fashion.
Ah... but who did I intend "you" to mean? Would that not, by taking a different definition of you inherently ignore the spirit of the wish and thus not grant it? (once again inherently)

Regardless of whether or not that argument is valid, I have to say, Afro's really good at this.

Nevermind. Re-read my own wish again. The me that the intent is defined by is also not located in time meaning that the intent could also be that of the baby....... curses.

.... And my edit was Ninja'd

[Thelas]

Ah... but who did I intend "you" to mean? Would that not, by taking a different definition of you inherently ignore the spirit of the wish and thus not grant it? (once again inherently)
Afro's determining the spirit of the wish by what your baby self said the spirit was, I believe. I'd say it's valid.


Regardless of whether or not that argument is valid, I have to say, Afro's really good at this.
He's good, yes.
However, he's still in third on number of breaks, by my count, including the people I talked about this with before posting it (it's either 4-2-1 or 4-3-1, I'm not quite sure.)

[afroakuma]

Now, if we're going to be very strict in the reading (hint: we are), assuming I make it through, the most preferable event happens as soon as I choose an interpretation.

Ah yes, but you're rendered insane rather rapidly, so what you consider "most preferable" when you finally decide on an out may very well not be anything you considered preferable going in; worse, if your sanity does crack, a literalist interpretation would prevent you ever escaping.


And THAT would be a pet pun-pun, who proceeds to teleport to me, cure my insanity, and then I have a pet pun-pun.

Requires a Pun-Pun to exist, which presupposes a universe in which Pun-Pun exists. Pun-Pun being smarter than everything ever would have already revised reality to prevent ever becoming a pet, and likely prevent your entire wish.

Actually, the DM's real best recourse is to ring a gong and say "Pun-Pun has forbidden it."


Yes, it's still in Modron, as before, my most sincere apologies, but I hate hate HATE the partial fulfillment clause, hence the use of bizarre grammatical variants of Modron (idea from Doc Roc, when he mentioned it for something else, btw, so...)

No, you don't understand: regardless of what language you phrase it in, partial fulfillment means the wish can trim away anything it wants from the final result. Ergo, the use of giant paragraphs of legalese or logic-sealed languages is pointless, since wish can undermine them without fault.

Suppose you Modron a wish for "seven apples and seven oranges" in such a way that the only possible literal reading of the wish demands those exact objects in the state you want them at the time you want them etc. etc. etc. and the wish feels it's excessive (for whatever reason). The wish can read the entire request, decide "Hmm, oranges are too much" and give you just the apples, or maybe orange seeds, or grapes, or nothing at all, because that is a partial fulfillment.


See, people? This is why you send all your wishes to the boards, whether you intend to use them in a game or not. (I don't, except maybe as plot backstory as to my definition of what a "DM" is, see above)
It WILL get broken if you don't test it.

No, it will get broken regardless if you try a wish like that. Legalese or no, partial fulfillment can crack it like an egg and as a player character, there is nothing, ever, that you can do about this. (As a player, your only options involve walking out of the game, threats to the DM or mutiny).


It is almost certainly true that there is "no wish that cannot be screwed with". It's almost certainly possible to screw with any given wish, and the perfect wish is almost certainly unattainable. (I say "almost" because who knows, maybe someone will come up with a thing.)

Again: partial fulfillment clause means that except for those wishes listed as safe in the SRD, no wish cannot be screwed with. I just try literal screwing because it's funnier.

Just if we're keeping this up, do me a favor: stop using that scrollbar post method and put it in a block paragraph in spoilers, please. I don't like trying to navigate that thing, and it screws with the whole page display.


Also, to all, we've seen the "the universe responds to your wish by making a scroll appear in front of you. in beautiful, perfect writing, it reads "tl;dr"." response, so please, try to pervert the wish, not just deny it altogether - the latter isn't useful to anyone involved.

I can always partially deny it - in horrific ways. :smallamused:

[Zeful]

Eh...
Did you not see my clause about substrings &c in the preamble describing the language? That deals with partail fulfillment, I do believe.

It doesn't, not really. Just because Modron works like you say it does (I don't care if it does, it doesn't exist in my games and as such is a non-factor to me), doesn't mean that entire clauses can't be ignored in the case of partial fulfillment.

[afroakuma]

[S]Ah... but who did I intend "you" to mean? Would that not, by taking a different definition of you inherently ignore the spirit of the wish and thus not grant it? (once again inherently)

Nope, because you intended the meaning of "yourself," a closed bounded temporal object. If you do not define yourself in this fashion, then I'll go interrogate the "you" from an alternate timeline and see what he wants. :smallwink:

[Vulkarius]

Just look at a good ammount of people that win the lottery. They let it go to their heads and waste their money. Occasionaly ending up worse than before. Kind of how I see Wish.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Made that wish tonight -> you should get at least *proportionality caluculation* 1/24 of a night, so we'll say half an hour.

Unless you've thought about that wish before or similar wording, I can't possibly know for sure how long you. And stopping the game for half an hour certainly isn't acceptable hence why I want it in advance.



Eh...
Did you not see my clause about substrings &c in the preamble describing the language? That deals with partail fulfillment, I do believe.
Doesn't work
Your wish includes everything not just your desire but every clause and subtext you use to try and prevent its perversion. When the partial fulfillment is granted the wish cuts out your sections pertaining to partial prevention.

[Thelas]

Here you go, AA, wish-in-a-spoiler-block.
And it depends on how you interpret 'partial fulfillment'. Like that, I agree that it's pretty much impossible to avoid, but the usual definition I see used is that it can snip parts of the original wish's text, so long as there's still a grammatically correct sentence (hence the verb-last form of Modron). Since there's absolutely no point if the partial fulfillment clause snips meaning instead of text, would you mind doing it as such so that there's actually a point in this? (Either text-snip, which should be impossible with the language construction, or literal-perversion, which is what we're looking for here to try and fix.)


Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron (go grab the web enhancement for MotP for reference if you aren't aware of the language's peculiarities) that does not create a full and complete sentence at any point until the end (this includes any subset of symbols or words (including parts of symbols), even out of order, such that no part of the wish can be fulfilled by itself for grammatical reasons). It has been reproduced here in English, because unlike all my Wizard PCs (and most of my others), I don't speak Modron.


I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge of both the circumstances and all the effects that will be created, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect, direct or indirect, on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, and in descending order from most to least probable, determined to the best of your (1) abilities and with granting you (1) perfect information, in the same manner as above, which is removed upon completion of the granting of this wish, in Modron, and asked for my approval, which will be determined as it would if I was hale in both mind and body - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur; this REPL (3) is applied first to itself (including this statement) and then to the parts of the wish that do not include itself; that in addition to all of the above no chain of events can ever occur that even under the same conditions as above there is no solution that I would view as both "positive" and "the most positive possible" that can occur.

(1) "you" is the "wish-granting entity" or the forces of the multiverse, depending on the type of wish. substitute it as such. (2)
(2) footnotes are not actually part of the wish, just a quick clarification of stuff.
(3) REPL is a programming term - here we use it to mean the methods used to allow for recursive interpretation verification


@Zeful: Modron is basically a programming language - I'm just defining a variant of it that works in the verb-last way I need. We can just define it so that the HALT operation is a perfect checksum if need be, but basically you should be able to incorporate checksums into every char if you have to, since we don't have memory concerns to deal with.

[Thelas]

Doesn't work
Your wish includes everything not just your desire but every clause and subtext you use to try and prevent its perversion. When the partial fulfillment is granted the wish cuts out your sections pertaining to partial prevention.

Well... the thing is, it can only break my wish. We'll consider, because that's what I'm doing, that I've put a rank in Speak Language to learn a variant of Modron that meets those conditions. The conditions aren't part of my wish, they're an intrinsic part of the language, and can't be cut out through partial fulfillment since they have nothing to do with my wish, they're just guaranteed by the existence of my language.

[afroakuma]

Well... the thing is, it can only break my wish. We'll consider, because that's what I'm doing, that I've put a rank in Speak Language to learn a variant of Modron that meets those conditions. The conditions aren't part of my wish, they're an intrinsic part of the language, and can't be cut out through partial fulfillment since they have nothing to do with my wish, they're just guaranteed by the existence of my language.

No, no, no.

Whatever your language "guarantees," there will always be indicative components, because at some point "apple", "orange," and "me" need to be expressed. Such a language, with partial fulfillment, will either have the capacity to form a restructured sentence excluding "orange" while still containing "apple" and "me" in the same context, or else be restructured such that "orange" cannot fit in the context you establish alongside "apple" and "me."

This is not about phrasing in Modron, or Lojban, or however else you scheme to "logic without writing logic," it's about making a (hopefully concise, but that's a pipe dream, apparently) wish incapable of literal deviation from what you thought you wished for.


Clause I
I wish that at no point
• neither during or after, in my personal time-stream
•• which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with
••• including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does)
••• or to not continue at a constant rate,

can any effect or event
• (including the null event)

that I
• in my current state of mind
•• (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect)

would not deem
• given absolute knowledge of both the circumstances and all the effects that will be created

to be beneficial to me or that I would not
• in the same state and under the same conditions

prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event,
• including the null

want to occur to me, have any effect
• direct or indirect

on me or occur in any fashion at all

Clause 2
and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner
• and in descending order from most to least probable

determined to the best of your abilities
• and with granting you perfect information, in the same manner as above
•• which is removed upon completion of the granting of this wish

in Modron, and asked for my approval
• which will be determined as it would if I was hale in both mind and body

wherefore, if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process
• (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting])

may take any amount of time to occur; this REPL is applied first to itself (including this statement) and then to the parts of the wish that do not include itself;

Clause 3
that in addition to all of the above no chain of events can ever occur that
• even under the same conditions as above

there is no solution that I would view as both "positive" and "the most positive possible" that can occur.

There are multiple fundamental problems with this wish, largely stemming from the fact that players are greedy and thus keep trying to make this wish.

Examples:

Granted
You are presented, constantly, with the sum infinity of every possible event that can currently occur, which, when combined, despite your infinite disconcern for any countable number of them together, will guarantee an unfavorable outcome for you personally when all put together.

The fact that I can shift even one of these and make for a "distinct" interpretation means that I can have you there, mentally, until the (mental) heat death of the universe, and that, with this information, you in your right mind would choose to waive making this foolish wish altogether rather than face this knowledge, the cosmic insignificance arising therefrom, and the fact that I can keep you there in a mental box for all of time. You haven't escaped, you've just ensured that no negative result will arise from an insane version of you deciding "kill me" is the best choice. The sane version of you, armed with the sublime and infinite knowledge this wish, if granted in its entirety (which it almost certainly would not be) would provide, can still make an appropriate decision that collapses your wish regardless.

Not Granted
Pulling you free from your timestream in any respect for a timeless conference is interference with your timestream, causing a paradox. Your wish cannot be granted by its own terms.

To name two.

[nahmoss]

If I had a genie or whatever offering me to grant a wish I would write everything I wanted down into a book, have the most accomplished contract lawyers look over and help me reword and rewrite it. Then word that wish for everything in that book to apply to me permanently.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well... the thing is, it can only break my wish. We'll consider, because that's what I'm doing, that I've put a rank in Speak Language to learn a variant of Modron that meets those conditions. The conditions aren't part of my wish, they're an intrinsic part of the language, and can't be cut out through partial fulfillment since they have nothing to do with my wish, they're just guaranteed by the existence of my language.

1: Your using a made up fantasy language that would require DM approval, automatic failure right there.

2: You'd have to prove to me that modron actually does what you say it does, as that is impossible you fail on that count. Also any wish you say has to be understood by the DM, which means you have to word it in english or whatever language your DM understands

Wish never says anything about specific languages, by some logic the DM could make up the anti-modron language where what ever is said in modron means something else in anti-modron thus whatever wish you make is automatically perverted as the spell can't tell the difference between modron and anti-modron.

Lastly the DM can just say Rule-0 "Your being selfish jerk and trying to break the game, if you want to be an almighty unstoppable being play by yourself."

[afroakuma]

If I had a genie or whatever offering me to grant a wish I would write everything I wanted down into a book, have the most accomplished contract lawyers look over and help me reword and rewrite it. Then word that wish for everything in that book to apply to me permanently.

Granted
I tattoo the text of the book onto every part of your body, including your eyeballs and your insides. With rusty needles and black-and-yellow ink, so that laser surgery can never fully remove it. Then I have you preserved and laminated.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Granted
I tattoo the text of the book onto every part of your body, including your eyeballs and your insides. With rusty needles and black-and-yellow ink, so that laser surgery can never fully remove it. Then I have you preserved and laminated.

The wish could also change the contents of the book, but your idea if much better.

[afroakuma]

When I am the wish-granting entity, expect high-grade malevolence.

[PapaNachos]

1: Your using a made up fantasy language that would require DM approval, automatic failure right there.

2: You'd have to prove to me that modron actually does what you say it does, as that is impossible you fail on that count. Also any wish you say has to be understood by the DM, which means you have to word it in english or whatever language your DM understands

Wish never says anything about specific languages, by some logic the DM could make up the anti-modron language where what ever is said in modron means something else in anti-modron thus whatever wish you make is automatically perverted as the spell can't tell the difference between modron and anti-modron.

Lastly the DM can just say Rule-0 "Your being selfish jerk and trying to break the game, if you want to be an almighty unstoppable being play by yourself."

If I were DMing this is almost exactly how it would play out.

That being said, for any wish I grant the amount I screw with the players is directly proportional to how hard they're trying to break the game. If they use it reasonably nothing bad will happen (unless of course whatever is granting the wish would have reason to prevert it).

[afroakuma]

If they use it reasonably nothing bad will happen (unless of course whatever is granting the wish would have reason to prevert it).

I very much hope that I am not the thing granting the wish, then. :smallamused:

[Lord Vukodlak]

If I were DMing this is almost exactly how it would play out.

That being said, for any wish I grant the amount I screw with the players is directly proportional to how hard they're trying to break the game. If they use it reasonably nothing bad will happen (unless of course whatever is granting the wish would have reason to prevert it).

We are of one mind PapaNachos.

[PapaNachos]

I very much hope that I am not the thing granting the wish, then. :smallamused:

The wizard Afroakuma is grateful for your help. As payment for your services he offers you one wish...

[Thelas]

AA: #2's a trivial fix, and again, I need to stop missing that sort of stuff.
#1, on the other hand... let's just say I have a programming reference book next to my computer.
Please also be aware that I'm not giving up yet, I'm going to bed because it's late and I can't word wishes too well at this point. I'll have a new version in the morning.



1: Your using a made up fantasy language that would require DM approval, automatic failure right there.

Fail, it's in official 3.5 material, it exists (unless we're houseruling stuff away, in which case we're houseruling stuff).


2: You'd have to prove to me that modron actually does what you say it does, as that is impossible you fail on that count. Also any wish you say has to be understood by the DM, which means you have to word it in english or whatever language your DM understands

Modron, at the very least, can be used to create a universal turing machine (cf. Alan Turing's 1936 paper "On Computable Numbers, with an Application to the Entscheidungsproblem" for more details. Alternately, cf. Doc Roc's "dorfl" build, which includes a bit of the sort of stuff I'm using here and is worth knowing in any case).
Also, I don't HAVE to. I can give the DM an English translation, stating that my PC has the ability (as an INT >25 wizard) to say that in the other language.


Wish never says anything about specific languages, by some logic the DM could make up the anti-modron language where what ever is said in modron means something else in anti-modron thus whatever wish you make is automatically perverted as the spell can't tell the difference between modron and anti-modron.

If there's an actual wish-granter, this can't occur, because I'm going to use a written text for my wish, as above, and I'll invent my own set of glyphs for the variant language, possibly with a random element determined at the start of each passage or similar, thus forcing a chance of 1/inf=0, especially because what wish-granting creature would spend an NI (at the least) number of language slots (or skill points if your GM is cruel and actually enforces the language lists (which are kinda buggy, in fact, because it's easy to run out of language choices before you run out of slots, too)) on this "anti-modron" language that doesn't even work more than (limx->inf 1/x) of the time... yeah.
The language isn't considered to exist unless someone speaks it, or it's written somewhere, or similar.
It's stated to take time to learn a language (or create one, since you're effectively learning a new language...)
There's no time permitted to interpret the wish because of one of the clauses.
Thus, this really doesn't work in any case at all, since we've established the lack of viability of anti-modron.


Lastly the DM can just say Rule-0 "Your being selfish jerk and trying to break the game, if you want to be an almighty unstoppable being play by yourself."

Thought experiment, I have said multiple times I'm not going to use this in a game, thought experiment -> Rule-0 is defenestrated.
If a player came to me with this wish, I would definitely Rule 0 it in my game. This isn't an actual game, though.

[afroakuma]

You need to speak a wish. Verbally. Aloud. Your plan is... flawed.

Even with Silent Spell, you still need to speak your actual wish.

Best of all, I now have the key to undermine all your future efforts, though I'll save it until it's either needed or I grow bored with your enormous legalese.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You say modron is in official material? cite the source, as you sound like your full of it. Modron might not do what you say it does.

Second nothing protects you from the anti-modron. If you say "life" in modron in anti-modron you said "Death". Wish perverse' your desire by granting what you said in anti-modron instead. The two languages sound identical but the meaning of words are swapped.

If you want to take part in a though exercise that cheats by doing all the work for you to avoid a backfire.

There is always a wish granting entity its the universe and the universe is the DM.

[PapaNachos]

All entities that are capable of granting a wish now speak an emergency language where every attempt at verbal communication translates to "I wish you would hit me with a stick"

Actual communication takes place through a mixture of interpretive dance and sign language.

[Tokiko Mima]

Isn't it Oscar Wilde that said that "When the gods wish to punish us they answer our prayers?" You're almost always better off making a wish come true on your own, then relying on a DM/God to grant what they want to think you want. There is a whole TVTrope page on this subject. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor)

[afroakuma]

AA: #2's a trivial fix, and again, I need to stop missing that sort of stuff.

Ah, but is it really? For you see, as long as you protect your timestream, I can crush you against it, and if you unprotect it I will kill you immediately or else make you wish for death. There does in fact come a point where further legalese only gives me new hard places and rocks to put into amusing configurations around you.

Anyone else want to try a wish on me? :smallamused:

[Lord Vukodlak]

Ah, but is it really? For you see, as long as you protect your timestream, I can crush you against it, and if you unprotect it I will kill you immediately or else make you wish for death. There does in fact come a point where further legalese only gives me new hard places and rocks to put into amusing configurations around you.

Anyone else want to try a wish on me? :smallamused:

I wish for no more wish spells for anyone ever.
*yes I just made a wish to eliminate the wish spell*

[PapaNachos]

I wish for a plot hook.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I wish for a plot hook.

Your impaled on a hook with the word plot written on it.

[afroakuma]

I wish for no more wish spells for anyone ever.
*yes I just made a wish to eliminate the wish spell*

Granted
Those named Ever are no longer permitted to be the recipient of a wish effect.


I wish for a plot hook.

Granted
A large curved metal object with a pointed tip smashes through the major fiction libraries of the world, culling their entire collected works.

[Zeful]

If I had a genie or whatever offering me to grant a wish I would write everything I wanted down into a book, have the most accomplished contract lawyers look over and help me reword and rewrite it. Then word that wish for everything in that book to apply to me permanently.

And? Wish can remove parts of the wish. It doesn't matter if it's written in the Truespeak (which is better than modron, because you are wishing using an ultra-precise language with an infinite lexicon in which your entire wish is one word that encompasses both the entirety of reality of the wish and the intent), and includes clauses that prevents manipulation. The spell can ignore them, and give you something else, unless it is one of the "safe" effects listed by the spell.

[PapaNachos]

Granted
A large curved metal object with a pointed tip smashes through the major fiction libraries of the world, culling their entire collected works.

I got what I wanted, so I'm happy.

[Grollub]

I wish for a turkey sandwich on rye bread with lettuce and mustard. And... and I don't want any zombie turkeys, I don't want to turn into a turkey myself, and I don't want any other weird surprises, you got it?


:smallbiggrin:

[Juhn]

It could very simply be a two-month-old turkey sandwich. :smalltongue:

[klemdakherzbag]

I suppose that most of this thread is moot if one was to say.....actually have to word their Wish in character.....

[tyckspoon]

I suppose that most of this thread is moot if one was to say.....actually have to word their Wish in character.....

Not really, if only because the 35 Int/10 Wis Wizard is exactly the kind of person who is likely to try and attempt this thing, being both intelligent enough to realize he can possibly get more out of Wish and perhaps not smart enough to realize he shouldn't. So he goes off and starts researching exactly how to formulate the Perfect Wish, and as he does so he becomes more and more convinced that everybody else who tried and failed (and there are *sooo* many of them on record...) just wasn't smart enough, but he can do it, and those skill points he spent on cross-classing Truespeech will prove it..

Meanwhile, a normal person Wishes for a pile of gold or to resurrect their beloved pet or something else basically within the safe lines, gets their Wish, and moves on without having to worry about exactly what they said.

[Kylarra]

I wish for a turkey sandwich on rye bread with lettuce and mustard. And... and I don't want any zombie turkeys, I don't want to turn into a turkey myself, and I don't want any other weird surprises, you got it?


:smallbiggrin:Weird is undefined.:smallbiggrin: Your sandwich is on fire.

[Volthawk]

Also, for the Modron thing, what if this happens:

The genie looks at you and says "Sorry, what did you say? I don't speak that language."

[klemdakherzbag]

Not really, if only because the 35 Int/10 Wis Wizard is exactly the kind of person who is likely to try and attempt this thing, being both intelligent enough to realize he can possibly get more out of Wish and perhaps not smart enough to realize he shouldn't. So he goes off and starts researching exactly how to formulate the Perfect Wish, and as he does so he becomes more and more convinced that everybody else who tried and failed (and there are *sooo* many of them on record...) just wasn't smart enough, but he can do it, and those skill points he spent on cross-classing Truespeech will prove it..

Meanwhile, a normal person Wishes for a pile of gold or to resurrect their beloved pet or something else basically within the safe lines, gets their Wish, and moves on without having to worry about exactly what they said.
Except the one would think an Int 35/ Wis 10 character would have better things to do than dwell on a lowly Wish spell...

[Mewtarthio]

And? Wish can remove parts of the wish. It doesn't matter if it's written in the Truespeak (which is better than modron, because you are wishing using an ultra-precise language with an infinite lexicon in which your entire wish is one word that encompasses both the entirety of reality of the wish and the intent), and includes clauses that prevents manipulation. The spell can ignore them, and give you something else, unless it is one of the "safe" effects listed by the spell.

And, let's not forget, it is perfectly reasonable to claim that using multiple independent clauses in a wish is really just the same as trying to make multiple wishes at once. Wish only grants one wish at a time, so the granter is well within its rights to pick a single clause and only grant that one.

[tyckspoon]

Except the one would think an Int 35/ Wis 10 character would have better things to do than dwell on a lowly Wish spell...

One would also think Wizards have better things to do than make Owlbears, and yet they exist. Wizards are *supposed* to get obsessed about ultimately stupid things. It's responsible for about half of the more notable things in a typical D&D world.

[Kylarra]

When you get bored, you get bored. What can I say?

[klemdakherzbag]

Four words you never want to hear as a player: "A wizard did it."

[Thelas]

First off, solution to the "genie doesn't speak Modron" problem: Tongues is touch-range.

#2: AA, sorry, that's wrong.
As we all know, it's stated that we can't replace the somatic components and verbal components for a spell such as charm person with shaking their hand and speaking their name (unless we're actually casting silenced stilled charm person).
Similarly, the verbal components for a wish spell can't be the actual wish, for the same reasons.
I can just write it out.

@"not trivial":
Do you think I'm actually unprotecting my timestream, or do you think I'm just going to add the exact same clause as always?

@break #1:

@Lord Vukodiak:
Modron is found in 2e Planescape and the (3e) web enhancement to Manual of the Planes... the latter source which I've been citing in EVERY VERSION OF MY WISH.
Soooo.... yeah.
Before you go on to say it doesn't have the SECOND set of properties...
First off, go read Turing's "on computable numbers, with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem." You can probably find a bad version online for free; I recommend the book The Annotated Turing, which is an actual paperback you'll have to pay for, but much easier to read due to the diagrams and annotations.
Now, Modron is a mathematically precise language [src. 3e web enhancement].
-> It can be used as a Universal Turing Machine. (src. Turing)
--> I can apply U to what we'll call U', to produce a mathematically precise description of how my new Modron-variant needs to work (I can do this in two steps if I want, making U' just the word-order changes and then applying U'' to U', where the definition of U'' is left as a (very easy) exercise for the reader.
---> I now have a new Modron-variant, which I can drop a rank in Speak Language to learn.

Alternately, the "dorfl"-trick (go ask Doc Roc or something if you don't know it) can be used to create a similar variant of Scheme (the programming language), with a bit of luck.

I've proven it can be done, my wizard has a 30+ INT, -> it will be done.

And now for the part we've (probably) been waiting for, Wish 4.0:

No, we aren't.


or else make you wish for death

No, you won't.
There's a clause against that.
Look for it.

And don't even TRY what TS did to Wish 1.0 involving an algorithmically determined artificial creature and a bunch of Sarrukh.
It worked, because I'd left out some stuff.
It no longer works.

And after reviewing your first break... I do believe it doesn't work.
Everything other than the REPL, which does not seem to be what you're mentioning, is written in a conditional form... I said "if I would".
This means that I'm never actually forced to decide, it's done for me.

If there's another problem there, you'll have to specify it... and yes, "I would" has to be interpreted in that way because of the REPL.


Whatever your language "guarantees," there will always be indicative components, because at some point "apple", "orange," and "me" need to be expressed. Such a language, with partial fulfillment, will either have the capacity to form a restructured sentence excluding "orange" while still containing "apple" and "me" in the same context, or else be restructured such that "orange" cannot fit in the context you establish alongside "apple" and "me."
There will be such components.
However, each component will include some form of mandatory checksum.
Have fun trying to remove "orange" and keeping whatever the best checksum an INT 30+ wizard can come up with constant - it's not very likely to be possible, especiailly if "number of glyphs, in hex [possibly modulo 0x10000 if needed]" is the start of the checksum.
That is, EVERY GLYPH will have a ridiculous number of variations depending on the variation-less checksum (16^number of digits).

Wish 4.0.
Changes in bold so that AA can update his version easier.
(This does not fix Break #1 if it's an actual break, but AA needs to prove that it is before I'll try to fix it. It does fix Break #2, however.)


Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron (go grab the web enhancement for MotP for reference if you aren't aware of the language's peculiarities) that does not create a full and complete sentence at any point until the end (this includes any subset of symbols or words (including parts of symbols), even out of order, such that no part of the wish can be fulfilled by itself for grammatical reasons). It has been reproduced here in English, because unlike all my Wizard PCs (and most of my others), I don't speak Modron.


I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, unless I would determine, under the same conditions as found below, that if I was to be asked (and given the same information as below) whether I would wish this to occur, I would give my explicit approval can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge of both the circumstances and all the effects that will be created, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect, direct or indirect, on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, and in descending order from most to least probable, determined to the best of your (1) abilities and with granting you (1) perfect information, in the same manner as above, which is removed upon completion of the granting of this wish, in Modron, and asked for my approval, which will be determined as it would if I was hale in both mind and body - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur; this REPL (3) is applied first to itself (including this statement) and then to the parts of the wish that do not include itself; that in addition to all of the above no chain of events can ever occur that even under the same conditions as above there is no solution that I would view as both "positive" and "the most positive possible" that can occur, and in no event can such a solution require or include my death.

(1) "you" is the "wish-granting entity" or the forces of the multiverse, depending on the type of wish. substitute it as such. (2)
(2) footnotes are not actually part of the wish, just a quick clarification of stuff.
(3) REPL is a programming term - here we use it to mean the methods used to allow for recursive interpretation verification

Remember, AA, as soon as the wish resolves, everything that would be the best for me (as per the wish's conditions) is forced to occur.
Have fun with your next break, AA, I'm interested to see how long we can keep this up.

[Heliomance]

I had a em once that liked to mess around with wishes. I used the old standby "I wish you wouldn't grant this wish" and he stopped after that.
You are erased from the whole of existance such that you were never born. As you never cast the Wish spell, it cannot possibly have been granted.

[2xMachina]

I wish the wish spell only has the power of a 9th level spell.

[Killer Angel]

Please note that the following wish is in a verb-last form of Modron
(snip)



I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.


:smallsigh:
your so-perfect-modron-legalese (assuming that the creature conceding the Wish knows such language), don't save you from this simple evidence.
You are not asking for something in the list of the "safe results" granted by the wish.
So, no matter how much precise is your request, you're going to obtain only a partial fullfillment (if not a bad result), because your request exceeds the power of the Wish.

[Thelas]

:smallsigh:
your so-perfect-modron-legalese (assuming that the creature conceding the Wish knows such language), don't save you from this simple evidence.
You are not asking for something in the list of the "safe results" granted by the wish.
So, no matter how much precise is your request, you're going to obtain only a partial fullfillment (if not a bad result), because your request exceeds the power of the Wish.

It depends on how you read "partial fulfillment" - I always see it read as the ability to erase parts of the wish, which was the point of the description of checksums I had a bit later. If you read it the other way, there's no point in even TRYING to get a perfect wish.

And Tongues is still touch-range.

[Aharon]

@Thelas
I applaud your enterprise, but I have doubts that Modron is a mathematically precise language. The exact text is
"Modrons speak their own precise, mathematical language".
1) I doubt that is meant to be a description of a language in Turing's sense. Those are two distinct words used to describe the language. It is precise, and it is mathematical. Only in the context of mathematics, computer science and linguistics do these words have the meaning that would make your approach possible (Oxford Dictionary definitions of precise (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50186546?query_type=word&queryword=precise&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=2&search_id=dYuT-iqBj6k-2207&hilite=50186546) and mathematical (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00303341?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=mathematical&first=1&max_to_show=10) show that both words can have lots of meanings).
2) even if it is a mathematically precise language, what you use is a verb last variant, which might not be what the modrons use, and thus might not be modron. You would have to ask your DM to clarify if they use a verb last language. If they don't, you might invent a variant of modron that does that, but there are no rules in the game for doing that (I am aware that it is rather easy, but still, it's not in the rules).

[Killer Angel]

It depends on how you read "partial fulfillment" - I always see it read as the ability to erase parts of the wish, which was the point of the description of checksums I had a bit later. If you read it the other way, there's no point in even TRYING to get a perfect wish.

And Tongues is still touch-range.

(OK for tongue.)
In the end, it all depends by the creature granting the wish.
If you casting it by yourself and you stay in the "safe limits", in theory no problem.
But if it's someone else that casts a Wish based on you instructions... well, if he's Good (and also you), even a partial fullfillment won't be negative. But if he's Evil, sure as hell the partial fullfillment will have nasty consequences. For example, picking only some part of the modron language-equation, could in the end negate almost all your sentence, for the lack of some key-symbol.

[Thelas]

@Thelas
I applaud your enterprise, but I have doubts that Modron is a mathematically precise language. The exact text is
"Modrons speak their own precise, mathematical language".
1) I doubt that is meant to be a description of a language in Turing's sense. Those are two distinct words used to describe the language. It is precise, and it is mathematical. Only in the context of mathematics, computer science and linguistics do these words have the meaning that would make your approach possible (Oxford Dictionary definitions of precise (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50186546?query_type=word&queryword=precise&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=2&search_id=dYuT-iqBj6k-2207&hilite=50186546) and mathematical (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/00303341?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=mathematical&first=1&max_to_show=10) show that both words can have lots of meanings).
2) even if it is a mathematically precise language, what you use is a verb last variant, which might not be what the modrons use, and thus might not be modron. You would have to ask your DM to clarify if they use a verb last language. If they don't, you might invent a variant of modron that does that, but there are no rules in the game for doing that (I am aware that it is rather easy, but still, it's not in the rules).
2) If we're going to say there's no rules for that, there's also no rules that say that having to make a ridiculous number of decisions at once causes insanity and about half of AA's subversions don't work.
1) Hm.... I'll ask Doc Roc about it - use of Modron for this sort of stuff is one of the things he does a lot, so maybe he knows the source (I just trusted that he was right... it probably is).
For now, there's an example of Moigno speech, which I believe to be the same as Modron, in TSR2607 - The Planes Of Law, though that's 2e material.

[Ormagoden]

What about the player who wants the perfect wish to break the game or otherwise trainwreck the entire campaign. Maybe the selfish player with his selfish wish is to blame and not the DM who wants to keep the game going.

The perfect wish is clever, useful for the situation but not gamebreaking in any fashion. If you don't want you wish screwed over with don't make a wish that screws over the game, period.

I once had an entity named Braxis explain the nature of wish along with its cousins reality revision and miracle to the party

"When using wish you are attempting to reshape reality to your own ends, reality finds this irriatating and only after centuries of research have the safe pragmatics been defined. Words must be chosen correctly when attempting a greater wish for if reality can not be reshuffled to accommodate your desire reality will expel you. For the mentalist power reality revision the same rules apply.

Miracle is a different matter in this case the cleric attempt to ask their god for the desired change. It is much safer as your deity acts as a buffer. However the deity can deny your 'wish' no matter how you word it. The basic
moral of the story is, don't F with reality you'll lose"

Then the player obviously doesn't understand the spirit of the game.

If I ran into someone who specifically took Modron in game to use a loosely translated definition of the language so they could get exactly what they wanted just in case they got wish That's not someone I really want at my table. I'd obviously see if there could be a compromise but if the player was too insistent or unyielding I'd just drop wishes and the like from my game.

To come up with a wish like Thelas' I'd definitely require minimum int 18 and a knowledge: Legalese check. Then no matter how well it was worded it still be limited to the description of the spell and spirit of the game.

There really is no such thing as a perfect wish, thats the point.

[Aharon]

1) Don't have access to that, unfortunately. But yes, Moignos are similar to Modrons. In the Web enhancement, it says they are used as calculators.
2) True, but I think he would gladly do without that trickery, because only a verb last language makes partial fulfillment the way you defined it impossible (I think, I'm not sure about it.). He doesn't have to resort to insanity by too many options if he can use partial fulfillment against you.

[Beelzebub1111]

I wish there was never a Tiamat.

[afroakuma]

#2: AA, sorry, that's wrong.
As we all know, it's stated that we can't replace the somatic components and verbal components for a spell such as charm person with shaking their hand and speaking their name (unless we're actually casting silenced stilled charm person).
Similarly, the verbal components for a wish spell can't be the actual wish, for the same reasons.
I can just write it out.

No, you cannot:


Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

The parameters of the effects of the spell may only be defined by speaking aloud.


I've proven it can be done, my wizard has a 30+ INT

And yet keeps fiddling around with wishes.


No, you won't.
There's a clause against that.
Look for it.

No, I don't think I will, thanks. I can keep breaking it forever, in all likelihood, especially if I just whip out the final solution, but you're making me play lawyer and it's lost any spirit of fun.


This means that I'm never actually forced to decide, it's done for me.

Exactly, hence you would decide, presented with that perfect, overwhelming information, to let things stand. Regardless of whether you yourself are forced to decide, some virtual version of you with the parameters you yourself have laid out must still make the decision.


However, each component will include some form of mandatory checksum.

See, right here, this is why it's no longer fun or even interesting: because you're making a "spirit of the game" issue into a programming issue. Checksums, REPL etc.

And you are yet again missing the point: that if your language does have checksums built in, the power of wish, if going for partial fulfillment, will remake the properties of your language to alter the checksums to register only to the parameters it likes, throughout the entire language, or else take the entire contextual statement, analyze its constituent output products (which are no longer in a linguistic context) and then deliver them partially from there.

There is no perfect wish, because partial fulfillment is not "erase a section of the text" or "delete a clause" or anything else of that nature, it is you wish for a litre of water, you receive half a litre of water.


Remember, AA, as soon as the wish resolves, everything that would be the best for me (as per the wish's conditions) is forced to occur.

See, you'd like to think that, but I could simply give you the corridor fate, a.k.a. the "life of broccoli." Actually, I can't think of any safe alterations under which that's never a solution.


Have fun with your next break, AA, I'm interested to see how long we can keep this up.

No, I'm out. There's no longer any fun in this, only work, and I'm tired of reading your paragraph of legalese, knowing that in the end I could just partial-fulfill it regardless or pull out the stopper on the whole thing at once, but then you'd just complain. My participation further will only convince you to keep refining your so-called "perfect wish," adding more and more piles of programming rigor to it and making it an even more tedious slog, and I'll still find ways to destroy it.

[Zeful]

And you are yet again missing the point: that if your language does have checksums built in, the power of wish, if going for partial fulfillment, will remake the properties of your language to alter the checksums to register only to the parameters it likes, throughout the entire language, or else take the entire contextual statement, analyze its constituent output products (which are no longer in a linguistic context) and then deliver them partially from there.

There is no perfect wish, because partial fulfillment is not "erase a section of the text" or "delete a clause" or anything else of that nature, it is you wish for a litre of water, you receive half a litre of water.

That's pretty incorrect: If you wished for a litre of water you'd get that (duplicating Create Water). If you wished for a beautiful princess to appear and fall in love with you, you'd get the princess (transport traveler: She gets a will save, but is unlikely to make it) but she's probably not going to love you.

It is true that the spell doesn't erase or delete clauses. Rather it just fails to fulfill them, which no amount of legalese can fix

[afroakuma]

That's pretty incorrect: If you wished for a litre of water you'd get that (duplicating Create Water).

It was an analogy, Zeful, not an explicit ruling.

[Kilremgor]

As for non-pervertable Wishes, why just not say...



I Wish to usurp the power to define effects (and any possible consequences in general) of Wish from all the entities of any kind possessing it in any time stream, space, or any other dimension they can be in, irrevocably, at that instant (with no effects, time passage, or actions possible in the multiverse between me finalizing that Wish and gaining the usurped power), and applicable, both currently and retroactively, to that Wish as well.


So, you win.

Because whatever could pervert your wish by defining its effects (be it some cosmic force -in character- or DM) was just stripped of its power to define its effect, so no perversion possible at all.

Then you just Wish another time for a sandwich and 'pervert' it into absolutely whatever effect you want. Or maybe just 'pervert' the original Wish since it grants you the power to define Wish effects, and once gaining that power, you can pervert your Wish retroactively into 'grant me Wish control and X,Y,Z,... effects'.

I guess this one can't be perverted, only limited or denied.

Well... technically you're just Wishing to be a DM :smallbiggrin:

Edit: added the 'nothing else' defense and retroactively affecting the Wish-defining-Wish :D so no second Wish is necessary, just for perfection :D

[Doc Roc]

As for non-pervertable Wishes, why just not say...



So, you win.

Because whatever could pervert your wish by defining its effects (be it some cosmic force -in character- or DM) was just stripped of its power to define its effect, so no perversion possible at all.

Then you just Wish another time for a sandwich and 'pervert' it into absolutely whatever effect you want.

I guess this one can't be perverted, only limited or denied.

Well... technically you're just Wishing to be a DM :smallbiggrin:

I made that wish, and never looked back.

[afroakuma]

Granted
...but neither this wish, nor any other, is ever defined by the being providing the power, but rather by some nebulous property inherent to the power of the spell itself, self-protected from usurpation by the fact that taking any power away from the power of the spell results in the spell's own collapse. So, you usurp a sum total of no power, and then you are eaten by bears.

[Doc Roc]

Granted
...but neither this wish, nor any other, is ever defined by the being providing the power, but rather by some nebulous property inherent to the power of the spell itself, self-protected from usurpation by the fact that taking any power away from the power of the spell results in the spell's own collapse. So, you usurp a sum total of no power, and then you are eaten by bears.

Well, my first wish would certainly be for a ring of three wishes. And every third wish from there on would be for another ring of three wishes. It's within the purview of the spell, sadly, and thus not subject to any perversion beyond the usual line noise. For that, I suspect that Thel's wish would be a fine wording.

A wish that gets you infinite wishes is probably the perfect wish.

[Kilremgor]

afroakuma> this defense relies on the assumption that no one and nothing is defining Wish effects, but you're defining Wish effect, thus, you're the 'entity of any kind' from which the power is usurped :smallbiggrin:

'Spell' is also an entity, as are its properties that supposedly protect from usurping.



entity (plural entities) - The state or quality of being or existence.


If some spell property prevents usurping control of Wish effects, it doesn't pervert the wish, it just denies it.

[afroakuma]

Well, my first wish would certainly be for a ring of three wishes. And every third wish from there on would be for another ring of three wishes. It's within the purview of the spell, sadly, and thus not subject to any perversion beyond the usual line noise. For that, I suspect that Thel's wish would be a fine wording.

A wish that gets you infinite wishes is probably the perfect wish.

Granted
Here is a ring of three wishes. It has no charges remaining.

Granted
Here is a ring of three wishes. Here is the time dragon wearing it.

If I was feeling nice, or it was a player trying something honest, I'd give him a ring with one charge remaining.

I actually far prefer Kilremgor's attempt to Thelas', though I would kill any player trying either of them.

[Zeful]

As for non-pervertable Wishes, why just not say...



So, you win.

Because whatever could pervert your wish by defining its effects (be it some cosmic force -in character- or DM) was just stripped of its power to define its effect, so no perversion possible at all.

Then you just Wish another time for a sandwich and 'pervert' it into absolutely whatever effect you want. Or maybe just 'pervert' the original Wish since it grants you the power to define Wish effects, and once gaining that power, you can pervert your Wish retroactively into 'grant me Wish control and X,Y,Z,... effects'.

I guess this one can't be perverted, only limited or denied.

Well... technically you're just Wishing to be a DM :smallbiggrin:

Edit: added the 'nothing else' defense and retroactively affecting the Wish-defining-Wish :D so no second Wish is necessary, just for perfection :D
Except that won't work. Literal fulfillment would now cause you to go insane from the thousands of conflicting voices of every wish in the multiverse, in the past, present and future, preventing you from being able to actually determine the effects of the spell, even with your own wishes.

Partial fulfillment would be to use that wish as if you had cast the wish spell, which you already used, so you get the net effect of nothing.

[Thelas]

Granted
Here is a ring of three wishes. It has no charges remaining.

Granted
Here is a ring of three wishes. Here is the time dragon wearing it.


A ring of three wishes is a safe wish (cf. the spell itself), so it can't be perverted.

[afroakuma]

afroakuma> this defense relies on the assumption that no one and nothing is defining Wish effects, but you're defining Wish effect, thus, you're the 'entity of any kind' from which the power is usurped :smallbiggrin:

DM is not defined in-game. You can't include me inside the defining scope.


A ring of three wishes is a safe wish (cf. the spell itself), so it can't be perverted.

True, I cannot mail you a time dragon, but I can certainly give you the item without charges. It is a verbatim delivery of a single item without unintended side-effects... it just happens to be worth less than you thought it was.

In fact, I can actually give your character a golden ring made of filigree spelling the words "three wishes" and it's still within the allowed interpretation of the spell, even granting that you made a "safe" wish.

I will never allow a player to wish for a functional candle of invocation or ring of three wishes just because WotC can't proofread or realize the logical consequences of their tomfoolery.

[Saph]

Wish lists a value for nonmagical items at 25,000 gp. This matches the typical 5gp=1xp ratio you see elsewhere, so that seems like a reasonable price guideline to set on magic items.

So if one of my players asked for a ring of three wishes, I'd give him a ring with one charge remaining (worth slightly over 25k, I think, but not enough to be worth worrying about).

If the player was actually moronic enough to complain about that result . . . well, I've never had a player that stupid.

[Kilremgor]

Zeful> why go insane, just determine first incoming Wish effect as 'prevent all further Wishes except ones cast by me' or even '[my name and position] will be able to define exact time to process any Wish effect' (thus granting you ability to postpone their processing).

But you can't go insane at all, technically.
If you got insane because of someone's Wish, it was effect (any possible consequence) of that Wish, and as defined in Wish-to-rule-all-the-Wishes, you control all the effects and consequences, so it can't happen without your consent.

[afroakuma]

I would contest this on a number of levels. It's not the job of a GM to pull the carpet out from under his players.

No, but it is the job of the GM to keep the game running smoothly, such that it is enjoyable for all players. Giving one player the power to take from the DM the ability to interpret is paramount to saying either "you be the DM" or else "anyone else wanting to use a wish had better suck up to that guy, big time."

Kilremgor
One loophole you forgot, which I use to kill you:

I give this power to a different temporal "you" in its entirety. Probably "you" as an embryo. I then go notify all the wish-granters regarding A) your wish and later protections thereof, and B) who deserves a cosmic wedgie every single day.

Now, this is of course going to go into "I close that loophole, yada yada," and I'm really bored of escalations. I do prefer yours to Thelas', but having to pervert recursive legalese isn't any fun at all, since even perversion runs so close to simple denial as to be outright pointless.

[Doc Roc]

Wish lists a value for nonmagical items at 25,000 gp. This matches the typical 5gp=1xp ratio you see elsewhere, so that seems like a reasonable price guideline to set on magic items.

So if one of my players asked for a ring of three wishes, I'd give him a ring with one charge remaining (worth slightly over 25k, I think, but not enough to be worth worrying about).

If the player was actually moronic enough to complain about that result . . . well, I've never had a player that stupid.

I agree, but if we are operating in RAW only mode...

Well, certainly I prefer your solution. :: laughing ::

[Another_Poet]

Also, Psychology, not Pyschology.

I appreciate a good grammar Nazi. In this case it was a typo, I know the correct spelling :)

I would start with the people who use "dieties" "rouge" inappropriate apostrophes before moving onto people who mis-spelled 4-syllable words though :P

[Kilremgor]

afroakuma> yeah, I see no reason for further loophole-war on that one, since it already does attack the very basis of possible defense (ability to interpret the Wish wording into exact effects) and there isn't a step further, short of outright Wishing for 'I Wish to rewrite rules governing the Wish spell' (then, specifying what lines to rewrite in the book :smallbiggrin:) which isn't fun.

For a more interesting Wish that doesn't grant absolute power, but is still interesting:

First, make any mundane Wish that doesn't trigger nasty effects and is absolutely trivial so doesn't alert the cosmic powers; and one which has a multiplicative non-threatening effect. +1 to stat, maybe.

Then,


I Wish that my previous Wish will be granted again X times instead of one, each time having exactly the same (no more, no less) effect as the first already had in my own experience, but Y seconds later.

X and Y depend on the previous Wish; if it is item creation and said items materialize on the table, set X to desired number and Y to the number of seconds you need to take the mass-produced item away from the spot it appears on (otherwise, some Wishes may fail to produce result as they have already taken effect from a technical standpoint).
For Modron-related fun, 'seconds' and 'granted' are better off defined as exact programming terms (to prevent 'time is relative' and 'granting means you pay XP costs again' defenses), which is easy but quite long.

Edit: Modron fun.

[afroakuma]

Granted
You create a magic item. Then the recursive wish creates the same magic item, exactly as it did last time, by means of time-displacing the creation you experienced in accordance with the time in seconds stipulated by your wish.

Know what's really fun? When someone says "I wish for the following" and the genie says "Granted. Whose?"

[2xMachina]

Casts Wish from spell slot:

I wish for 5k Xp, and another wish.

Hint: It's not as broken as it sounds. It does nothing.

[Thelas]

Casts Wish from spell slot:

I wish for 5k Xp, and another wish.

Hint: It's not as broken as it sounds. It does nothing.

It doesn't work, since XP is a metagame term, and it can be broken if it was allowed, because you'd just recurse that ad infinitum.

[2xMachina]

It's a useless wish anyway.

Spend 5k xp and a spell slot to get 5k xp, and the spell you wanted.

Hmm, maybe I should have clarified that the new wish you got is a Wish spell refreshed on your spell list.