PDA

View Full Version : Class: Check. Backstory: Check. Personality: Check. Role... no check. [3.5]



Zaq
2010-07-01, 08:11 PM
So, I'll be blunt. I need help with this character. I've been bringing up aspects of this character here and there for a few days, but I'm just treading water.

I'm making a new level 15 character. I want him to be a LN Dwarf Incarnate, going either pure Incarnate or Ironsoul Forgemaster. I've got a fun backstory and personality for him that I can't wait to play at the table. I love Incarnum (my favorite character ever was primarily an Incarnate, though a lot of other things too), and I'm looking forward to using it again.

...And I'm stuck.

I just can't figure out what I should actually DO. I'm not sure what role a level 15 Incarnate (and/or ISFM) should actually be playing. I know that LN Incarnates can get as high of an attack bonus as you're likely to find on a half BAB class who isn't polymorphing (or who doesn't have "cloistered" in the name... but we all know Clerics have full BAB), but I don't know what they DO with it. (And honestly, standing next to the Duskblade, Warblade, and Crusader in the party, just having a nice + to-hit won't really make me stand out.) I'm comfortable with low-level Incarnates, but I'm totally stuck on how I can contribute in the way a level 15 character should.

Part of the problem is that I'm playing at odds with myself. I make it a point to try to play a fairly mechanically different character every time I need to switch, and it's been a long time since I've played a melee guy. But, I need to find a way to melee that isn't boring, and that doesn't just ape my partymates (for example, we've already got a lockdown spiked chain user... and they'll probably be better at it than I would be). I'll get bored if I'm not doing something out of the ordinary.

I know Incarnates are capable of fun things. I'll be the closest thing to a skillmonkey the party has (for what little that's worth at this level), and I know that I can leave myself some flexibility to change my abilities as the situation warrants. But I still can't figure out what I actually want to DO. By level 15, most of the old tricks just don't work. For example, I could poach a few Totemist soulmelds and grapple things (I don't want to go PURE Totemist, since I don't think that fits the character quite as well... though I am well aware of how awesome Totemists are), but we don't fight anything that I could actually use that effectively against. Everything's just too big and mean (even with Totemist melds on my side), or has some way of getting free. That's just an example, but I think it stands.

I'm running out of ideas, but I don't want to abandon this just yet. Can anyone at least help me find a direction to go in?

Ranos
2010-07-01, 08:35 PM
An incarnate really has no role, they can shift back and forth to do whatever's needed. They're not very strong, with decent optimization, in a party of duskblade, crusader and warblade you'll still be slightly behind. Don't optimize and you will suck ten flavors of ass. If you're a dwarf, how about going for an Ironsoul Forgemaster ?

Also, fellmist robe is a must have. Seriously.

Incarnum feats open some nice options for multiclassing as well. With share soulmelds, get yourself a familiar with a dip, an animal companion with the wild cohort feat, and you've just multiplied your soulmelds by 3.
If you dip into psionics (Assuming you've got decent wis, 1 level of ardent with practiced manifester would get you a few nice third level powers), psycarnum infusion can be very interesting too.

Zaq
2010-07-01, 08:42 PM
An incarnate really has no role, they can shift back and forth to do whatever's needed. They're not very strong, with decent optimization, in a party of duskblade, crusader and warblade you'll still be slightly behind. Don't optimize and you will suck ten flavors of ass. If you're a dwarf, how about going for an Ironsoul Forgemaster ?

Also, fellmist robe is a must have. Seriously.

I've played an Incarnate before, indeed specifically for their versatility. I understand that if I'm building for a single and unchanging role, I have no reason to be an Incarnate. That said, I still need to have some kind of baseline, just so I can arrange my feats properly, you know?

If you see, I did say that I was considering taking ISFM, but I'm not sure what role I'd play then, either. Weapon Bond gets less sexy when you realize that it's a Fort save, and I wouldn't be able to get the DC much higher than 16 + CON (6 essentia: 3 base, +1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature, +1 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat, +1 Incarnum Focus... and that's relying heavily on the "invest as a soulmeld" language in Weapon Bond, which isn't ironclad), which is kind of pitiful at level 15, given that I can't go CON-SAD the way my last character did (DFAs are fun).

I do know how to optimize pretty well. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that I basically built the Warblade's and Crusader's characters, and had a fairly large bit to do with the creation of the Duskblade as well. I just need a goal in mind to START optimizing, and that's where I'm stuck. I'm trying to find a goal that encompasses all of these:

-Stay versatile, as an Incarnate should.
-Hit things in melee.
-Do something more than raw damage.

Once I have the goal in mind, I'll at least be able to work toward it. But for now, I'm spinning my wheels, because I don't know what I want.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-01, 08:44 PM
Not taking Ironsoul Forgemaster, I think, would be a mistake. Just because the class is that cool.

But ultimately, I feel like Incarnum was still in the paradigm of "melee spends the vast majority of its time hitting things" and unlike, say, the Martial Adepts, they don't really have the number of tricks. But unlike the Spiked Chain Tripper, you'll be able to change every day, so you do have that advantage.

On the other hand, I don't think they're weak, at all. Basically, I disagree with Ranos on that one.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-01, 11:07 PM
With a Duskblade, a Warblade, and a Crusader on your team, you have one major aspect of your class built-in that they do not.

Mobility. Acrobat Sandals, Blink Shirt (even if you have to spend a feat on it), Lammasu Cloak, etc. Get soulmelds that make you the Long Arm of the Law. While they can swing damage in unbelievable numbers, you can be hard to catch, harder to hit, and harder still to keep up with than any of your teammates. Get behind enemy lines while your pals Stabby, Smashy, and Leader deal with Bebop and Rocksteady in the front so you can shiv Shredder in the kidneys.

You heard me. You're the team Donatello.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 11:14 PM
As Fax said, your frontline looks pretty much covered, you should build towards harrier/striker.


You heard me. You're the team Donatello.

I always thought Raph was more of the kidney shivver :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2010-07-01, 11:17 PM
I always thought Raph was more of the kidney shivver :smalltongue:

...you can shiv with a quarterstaff. It just has to be a very pointy quarterstaff.

Zaq
2010-07-02, 02:29 AM
With a Duskblade, a Warblade, and a Crusader on your team, you have one major aspect of your class built-in that they do not.

Mobility. Acrobat Sandals, Blink Shirt (even if you have to spend a feat on it), Lammasu Cloak, etc. Get soulmelds that make you the Long Arm of the Law. While they can swing damage in unbelievable numbers, you can be hard to catch, harder to hit, and harder still to keep up with than any of your teammates. Get behind enemy lines while your pals Stabby, Smashy, and Leader deal with Bebop and Rocksteady in the front so you can shiv Shredder in the kidneys.

You heard me. You're the team Donatello.

I like the start of this, but where's the finish? It's very true that an incarnum-user can get very good mobility, but you know who else has a halfway decent mobility? Monks. How do I do this without being monklike? How do I make my enemies WANT to catch me?

Keld Denar
2010-07-02, 02:55 AM
...you can shiv with a quarterstaff.

Its dull you twit, it'll HURT more! Kudos for reference!

Coidzor
2010-07-02, 05:03 AM
Um, ideally the role you should occupy would be support with two thinking man's beatsticks and a magic beatstick as your companions, what with you not being able to quite beatstick it up with 'em.

ProfMoriarty
2010-07-02, 03:41 PM
Hmm, you have some tough restrictions, useful in melee, more interesting than just straight hitting your target but not tripping.

I have a similar issue as yours, I want to play straight incarnate in an upcoming game but I need to play the tank so I want melee options because sitting there tanking is boring.

I think you might try some combat debuffing like using nets - a melee touch attack to entangle, but has size restrictions. Brutal Strike(PHB2) with a bludgeoning weapon, hammers are a dwarvish weapon, can sicken opponents for a round, not the greatest. Three Mountains style feat from Complete Warrior can cause nauseated condition for a round, much better than sickened, but requires a few feats and more importantly 2 succesful hits in melee, which can be hard with wizard BAB without haste or something.

I know its not melee like you asked for, but for a mobile combatant, I might consider using a harpoon with mauling gauntlets soulmeld, harpoons are already awesome - causing restricting movement by lodging in the opponent on a nice DC10+damage reflex save - and with opposed strength checks you can control the movement of harpooned creatures. If an opponent removes the weapon as a full round action he takes damage equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt. Similarly theres the ritiik for melee, which lodges in an opponent for a trip but you don't want that.

Another way to get them after you is the Goad feat, but that's not optimal I don't think.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-02, 03:59 PM
For an alternative idea (and if your DM allows Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might), you could try some of what I'm doing with a character I play in my wife's game: status infliction.

Damocles uses high mobility in conjunction with a couple key feats to make life very difficult for his enemies. Hampering Strike makes any enemy he hits with a weapon attack take a -10' penalty to all forms of movement until the start of his next turn.

Running Circles allows him to not provoke from movement from any enemy whose threat area he starts his turn in.

Martial Stance (Pearl of Black Doubt) in conjunction with some form of concealment gives his normally average AC a very significant boost frequently. Combine this with Counterstrike Bracers and Evasive Reflexes.

Every time an opponent misses, Damocles can spend an immediate action to either strike back as an AoO or to take a 5' step. If he hits, his opponent takes a 10' speed penalty and doesn't threaten his movement; if he five-foots, he remains out of range of a full attack. In either instance, his AC rises by 2.

Incarnates tend to have good Wisdom due to their soulmelds that have save DCs. You could couple all of the above with Stunning Fist (and, in another 3p book, War of the Burning Sky Player's Guide, the Monk of the East Wind feat, which lets you burn stunning fist uses for a punch-delivered shocking grasp, which can be used in conjunction with regular ol' stunning fist for TASER FISTS) for some pretty interesting control.

Something to consider, anyway.

Zaq
2010-07-02, 09:49 PM
So, let's say that I decide to go Totemist instead. I found a fluff solution to the "Why do you have extra arms and a disturbingly high number of bite attacks?" question that I'm happy with.

What can a Totemist do that the aforementioned partymates aren't already doing? There's always the whole "I can grapple Big T" thing, but that's a pretty one-trick pony, and leaves you terrifyingly open to retribution. Totemists are very good at eating faces, but we've already got three face-smashers in the party, and we don't strictly need another.

(Oh, and I don't want to go breath weapon heavy, since the character this is replacing was a DFA. Any breath weapon a Totemist does, a DFA does better.)

Like I said, I'm thinking grappling... is there any way to do that and make it slightly less one-tricky? Alternatively, what else could I do?

Keld Denar
2010-07-02, 10:14 PM
Use Totemist to get a large number of natural weapons (use Skarn as a race for a spine, or warforged with Jaws of Death for a slam + bite, Bind Giralon Arms to Totem). Once you have many natural attacks, get Pounce (Bind Sphinx Claws to Hands Chakra), and then take Shape Soulmeld: Thunderstride Boots off the Soulborn list. Its the only thing they have thats good, SOMEBODY has to use it. Bind it to your Feet Chakra.

Now, you charge with your massive number of natural weapons, and each hit does +xd4 sonic damage (where x is the amount of essentia in Thunderstride Boots), and each hit forces a fort save vs Stun.

Once you charge, shift all your essentia out of the boots, unless you have another target to ping-pong to.

Ranos
2010-07-02, 10:14 PM
Well, that's pretty much it. Lots of attacks, insane grapple mods, a few other tricks on the side, but you're not gonna create planes of existence with a slash of your claws. If that's not what you're looking for, maybe Incarnum just isn't the book you want ?

woodenbandman
2010-07-02, 10:58 PM
Your party needs a sneaky bastard. Why not try out a build I've been keeping in the wing for a while:

Totemist(Some)/Possibly a bit of monk/Umbral Disciple

You get cool stuff like the manticore belt and free hide in plain sight, as well as other cool stuff, like 5 ranged attacks that deal 4d6+1/2 str mod each. You can quit Umbral Disciple at level 3 if you want, or go the full 10 for the really cool Soulchilling STrike and Kiss of the Shadows abilities.

Escheton
2010-07-02, 11:28 PM
Your party needs a sneaky bastard. Why not try out a build I've been keeping in the wing for a while:

Totemist(Some)/Possibly a bit of monk/Umbral Disciple

You get cool stuff like the manticore belt and free hide in plain sight, as well as other cool stuff, like 5 ranged attacks that deal 4d6+1/2 str mod each. You can quit Umbral Disciple at level 3 if you want, or go the full 10 for the really cool Soulchilling STrike and Kiss of the Shadows abilities.

+1, I was just about to recommend ranged and sneaky but had not started on crunching it out yet.
This is great.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-02, 11:53 PM
+1, I was just about to recommend ranged and sneaky but had not started on crunching it out yet.
This is great.Don't forget about how good dips are for incarnum characters. A rogue 1/totemist X with Craven makes for a great sneak-attacker with those manticore spikes. And you get so many skill points as a 1st level rogue, too.

Speaking of which, would you consider being a quick/sneaky/ranged combatant? With a level of psion (or Wild Talent) and the psionic minor creation power, you could easily afford to hurl poisoned spikes at your foes. Works best as a warforged, though, unless you use poisons that only deal damage through wounds.

You may also consider using your mobility to throw tanglefoot bags and such at your foes. Those things are nasty, even at higher levels. You'll just have to watch out for that pesky freedom of movement spell.

Outside of battle, of course, you could be the sneakster and trapmonkey. That level of rogue I mentioned earlier is good for that.