OOTS #732 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Carduus]

There he is.

[kpenguin]

Is it just me or is 732 a bit larger than the usual strip?

[The Giant]

Is it just me or is 732 a bit larger than the usual strip?

Whoops, I'll fix that.

EDIT: Fixed now.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah, why's it so big?
And yay! That's our Durkon! And our Mr. Scruffy! :smallbiggrin:

[icastflare!]

I liked it as it was. Made it unique in a way. Then again I am crazy so, its probably for the better.

[Scorer]

Wii!!!!! OOTS has gone Full HD :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: at least for a few minutes hehehehe

[Tobimaro]

Yep, the plotlines can run a bit long. :smallbiggrin: And wow, even Durkon can find Belkar to be of use. Will wonders cease to amaze me! :smallsmile:

Nice to see that Durkon can use his wisdom to get the job done. And being lawful does not necessarily mean being stupid. You just have to know how to use the laws to your advantage. :smallwink:

[Kumo]

Is it just me or is 732 a bit larger than the usual strip?

i liked it that way :smallfrown:

[Szilard]

And larger comics would mean less strips for the plotline.:smalltongue:

[chiasaur11]

Well, Durkon again shows he's an asset. I'm pretty sure he's the only guy in the party who'd get authentic papers.

[Kumo]

And larger comics would mean less strips for the plotline.:smalltongue:

I don't see how =/ i mean it was the exact same comic, just about two or three times bigger

[Dr.Epic]

Ah Stone Shape! That can be a fun spell! Also, how'd they get into the city the first time? Also, also, nice touch one the plotline gag!

[Kumo]

Also, how'd they get into the city the first time?

I assume stoneshape.

[omglolnub]

Nice, though I feel bad for the fourth wall, I wonder when they last bothered to repair the damage they did to it...

[dextercorvia]

It's nice to get some face time with the dwarf.

[Tyrrell]

Ah Stone Shape! That can be a fun spell! Also, how'd they get into the city the first time? Also, also, nice touch one the plotline gag!
They got in using Windwalk
Edit: or so I thought, a review of the relevant strips doesn't say this any place that I found. It could have been just my imagination.

Second edit: It's in the middle of 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

[SPoD]

Also, how'd they get into the city the first time?

Almost certainly Wind Walk, since that's what Roy said they would be using to move from city to city. If they Wind Walked right into the center of town, they wouldn't have known they needed papers.

[DSCrankshaw]

Heh, I liked the punchline on this one. And it's a clue to the current plotline's length.

[JonestheSpy]

Hmm, getting papers seems easier than I'd have expected.

[Almaseti]

If getting papers was that easy, why didn't they just do that in the first place?

[SadisticFishing]

I love Durkon. Lawful Good FTW. <3

[Dr.Epic]

Almost certainly Wind Walk, since that's what Roy said they would be using to move from city to city. If they Wind Walked right into the center of town, they wouldn't have known they needed papers.

I think a bunch of people walking in the sky and landing in the city would be noticed by at least one member of the guard.

[Hendel]

I always love a good Durkon strip.

[Kumo]

I think a bunch of people walking in the sky and landing in the city would be noticed by at least one member of the guard.

STONE. SHAPE.

He just used it to leave... seriously...

[Dr.Epic]

I always love a good Durkon strip.

Is there any other kind?

Also, Durkon teaming up with Mr. Scruffy to rescue the Order is the buddy cop drama I've been waiting my whole life to see!:smallbiggrin:

edit:

STONE. SHAPE.

He just used it to leave... seriously...

And they didn't just use the front gate like normal people as opposed to sneaking into the city in a manner that would make they look like criminals if caught?

[durron597]

Always funny to spoof on your own pacing :)

[Expat]

{Scrubbed}

[KoboldRevenge]

This reminds me of the scene in The Bourne Identity where he beats up the cops who were asking for his papers.

[ChowGuy]

Proving once again that Mr. Scruffy is the true brains of the party.

[John Cribati]

Durkon and his subtle awesomeness were missed. I thank you for remedying this.

[onthetown]

{Scrubbed}

Why would somebody join just to say they're leaving? :smallconfused:

Anyway, awesome strip. I loved the joke at the end about the plot lengths. :smallbiggrin:

[derfenrirwolv]

So how long before Durkon needs detect magic or some other cantrip?

[Martok]

If getting papers was that easy, why didn't they just do that in the first place?
Probably because it simply never occurred to them.

From what we've seen thus far, most cities/nations in the OOTS-verse appear to have fairly lax standards when it comes to requiring papers. Given that, it's not unreasonable that the Order wouldn't have thought to investigate the need for papers while visiting the Empire of Blood (who happen to be stricter than most in this regard).

[brionl]

{Scrubbed}


Dude, you're reading too much into it. Sometimes an Evil Empire is just an Evil Empire.

[Raistlin1040]

I think they're called 'Orisons'. Also more Durkon is always appreciated.

[Katana_Geldar]

Durkon sure is Lawful :smallbiggrin:

And cats are LOUD when they want attention and when they scratch at doors.

[Saphy]

squeee yay! :D

Mr. Scruffy and Durkon to the rescue!

[Agi Hammerthief]

damn that place is lawful
poster, bow and dagger still lying around like that.

[Secris]

damn that place is lawful
poster, bow and dagger still lying around like that.

I imagine Durkon picked them up on the way out.

[Bongos]

Och, not again!!!

[veti]

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. I think that these were the last strips for me and I won't be coming back. I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.

Laughed at, more like.

You need a particularly jaded reality filter to see this strip as commenting on anything that could be called "current politics". All countries I've been to (about 30, at last count) have required paperwork on entry for as long as I can remember. That's hardly "current politics". The joke, in this instance, is that this requirement is not usually the case in most D&D worlds. (But the intensely lawful Durkon sees nothing wrong with it.)

[Kranden]

Woo Durkon solo quest

[silvadel]

If it is a jab at anyones laws it would be Mexico's.... The AZ law wouldnt allow for carding everyone who happened to be there.

And at any rate I dont think it had anything to do with anything regardless. As freud said "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

[tomandtish]

Laughed at, more like.

You need a particularly jaded reality filter to see this strip as commenting on anything that could be called "current politics". All countries I've been to (about 30, at last count) have required paperwork on entry for as long as I can remember. That's hardly "current politics". The joke, in this instance, is that this requirement is not usually the case in most D&D worlds. (But the intensely lawful Durkon sees nothing wrong with it.)

Other part of the joke might also be the slight reversal of the procedure. Usually you have to have papers when you get to the new location (passport, etc.). They may then be stamped, but you still had them. Here you are paperless until you get there, then you give the guy at the gate whatever information and they let you in.

“Name?”

“Thronax the Destroyer”

“Race and Age?”

“Demon. 2,476.”

“Reason for entering?”

“Searching for souls to devour”.

“OK Sir. Here’s your papers. Have a nice day.”

I wonder if they would let Durkon in if he told the truth.
“Reason for visit?”

“Well, I was here without papers, but learned I had to have them after my friends were arrested, so I snuck back out so I could come in properly with papers so I can rescue my friends”.

“…. I’ll put ‘business’”.

[Venerable]

Y'know, this comic highlighted something a bit subtle: the evolution of Rich's use of color. Go back and look at the first twenty strips. Everything was bright, high-contrast colors. Now compare to the last twenty twenty strips. Each strip has its own particular color palette, and the colors of each strip are tastefully chosen.

It's a subtle thing, but it elevates the comic from the rest and deserves some recognition. Well done, sir. claps

[HealthKit]

Huh, I wonder how they got into the city without any paper work to begin with...

EDIT: and what's the logic in leaving Scruffy behind? Why not take him with you? :smallconfused:

[Katana_Geldar]

Other part of the joke might also be the slight reversal of the procedure. Usually you have to have papers when you get to the new location (passport, etc.). They may then be stamped, but you still had them. Here you are paperless until you get there, then you give the guy at the gate whatever information and they let you in.

“Name?”

“Thronax the Destroyer”

“Race and Age?”

“Demon. 2,476.”

“Reason for entering?”

“Searching for souls to devour”.

“OK Sir. Here’s your papers. Have a nice day.”

I wonder if they would let Durkon in if he told the truth.
“Reason for visit?”

“Well, I was here without papers, but learned I had to have them after my friends were arrested, so I snuck back out so I could come in properly with papers so I can rescue my friends”.

“…. I’ll put ‘business’”.

Done this sort of thing with my players.

[sol-decentguy]

And so begins the diplomatic journey of our favorite dwarf, episode 1 getting the papers
:durkon:

[Juhn]

Considering how avidly this community avoids discussion of real-world politics of any stripe, I strongly doubt that this is a reference to the law in question.

[Sharoth]

~laughs~ Oh. This one was a good one. ~smiles~ Thank you Rich for brightening my bad day (, week, month, year?).

[SaintRidley]

And Durkon demonstrates his heretofore known resourcefulness and wisdom.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

:durkon: YAYYYYYY!!!! :durkon:
Durkon LIVES!

[jolus]

Hm, did Durkon Stone Shape the right wall here?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Damage control to the 4th Wall are on the way.

They'll need backup.

[Beorn080]

If everyone has paperwork, then there should be a database, since no bureaucrat can resist all that extra filing. Perhaps they will look Girard up?

[Crystalline]

Durkon to the rescue!!

I'm excited!
And now we know the plotline will be 20-30 strips long. WOW THAT'S A LOT! :smallbiggrin:

[Mastikator]

Using a strip to say how many more strips there are left kind of seems like filler to me. But at least it's moderately fast update.

[Ted The Bug]

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. I think that these were the last strips for me and I won't be coming back. I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.

Seems like more than just scorned and yelled at...Rich is simply writing about getting basic papers to enter a city, similar to those used in many borders of peaceful nations. These questions are identical to those I was asked when walking from Upstate NY to Canada, and driving from Belgium to Germany, and different from those I was asked when leaving Mexico. They're not unique, they're not referring to any specific laws other than the basic premise of people going from place to place. That would be like saying that since the cops play a role in the past two strips, Rich is bringing up the Rodney King riots.
These have as much do to with the Arizona law as they do with the situation in Israel: they both involve borders and people moving from one land to another. Linking it to the Arizona law (and the issue of US immigration in general) is adding politics where none are involved. All the strip is saying is that you need to carry papers in this nation if you are arrested (just like in certain European nations without immigration issues). It's not saying that law is good, bad, or indifferent. Long story short: unless Rich *actually* has a comic where Durkon gets deported or Roy can't afford decent healthcare or Belkar is drafted, there is no need to view something as a political statement. When Durkon heals someone, it could be viewed as a party member healing an ally, or as a socialist giveaway. Likewise, when Miko goes ballistic on Belkar, is it subtle propaganda that the police are too zealous, or is it simply Miko being Miko? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, don't say it's a toucan because they're both birds.
/2cents

Oh, right, the strip. Not sure why, but I loved the look of panel 9.

[Katana_Geldar]

Some people just see what they want to see...

[dsavereide]

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader.

Expat, you are reading way more into this then is justified. To start with, there has been nothing negative implied about requiring valid paperwork of all residents. It's just a fact that this country has it. Many countries all over the world have such requirements. It's just that our heroes sidesteped the border and didn't realize it. That doesn't make it evil.

Now to the important question... can someone explain what Stone Shape is?

[DabblerWizard]

Maybe I just like Durkon as a character, but I thoroughly enjoyed this strip.

I think it had to do with the strip showing the story move ahead more than just a few minutes.

[gooddragon1]

Now for the geekery thread to update durkon's age as 55.

[horngeek]

Oh, dear god. The fourth wall would be weeping.

But you MURDERED it, Rich. I hope you're happy. :smalltongue:

[Dziadek]

Now to the important question... can someone explain what Stone Shape is?

It's a spell with which you can modify the shape of any object made of stone. Durkon used it to make a hole in the city wall.

[Katana_Geldar]

Makes sense he has this spell, being a dwarf and all.

[binyamin20]

I don't see how =/ i mean it was the exact same comic, just about two or three times bigger

It's a joke!

[Crod]

This is my first post here. I'm reading OOTS since the very beginning. What's great with OOTS is that it's one of the only place on the internet where you can escape the usual bitter partisanship and shouting matches in other stupid forums. Really, I always enjoyed OOTS and was looking forward to it every evening... until now.

Expat, you are right about the forum being a very nice place. Reading from the forum rules it is clear that Rich does not want politics or other real world topics here. Don't you think it is quite far fetched that Rich, being a man who doesn't want this in the forum, suddenly makes a comic about it?

[Raging Gene Ray]

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. I think that these were the last strips for me and I won't be coming back. I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.

PS: My main argument about all this is that I came here in the 90s through the legal channel, waited in line, paid the fees and did the paperwork for all the various immigration steps and finally became a US citizen in 2005. So, yes. Contrary to a lot of people talking about the issue, I know quite a bit about the topic and I do not appreciate a bit anyone cutting in line who moreover has the nerve to complain about it.

You obviously know a lot about the subject, so it colors how you interpret this strip. It's probably not a reference to the Arizona laws at all.

Requiring papers is typical in many countries, both real and fictional. This is sometimes used as a method by DMs of forcing players to deal with the authorities even when they don't do anything wrong and involve them with the plot in D and D.

Here, Rich just needed a way to get Roy and Belkar to the palace without making them criminals or using something convoluted to get them accused of something.

Don't let this turn you off to the comic.

[binyamin20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Epic
Ah Stone Shape! That can be a fun spell! Also, how'd they get into the city the first time? Also, also, nice touch one the plotline gag!

For the sake of cthulu! Did you read the previous thread!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by binyamin20
They wind walked in. says so in comic 600 something.

[Darthteej]

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. I think that these were the last strips for me and I won't be coming back. I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.


God, if I debated politics here, especially as a mere Pixie, I would get banhammered so fast. MUST...RESIST...!

But seriously, is it wrong to try to read into things(on your own terms)? Would it really be a bad thing for an author to express an opinion through satire? Rich Burlew did make fun of hippie-style-environmentalism in SoD, and has obviously passed plenty of strong opinions on morality. #272 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0272.html) is perhaps the most clear evidence of relevant political satire. I'm not necessarily saying this plot point was meant that way, it could very well have been planned out long beforehand, but it could also be the author noticing something and passing his view, and don't think that the possibility should be dismissed offhand.

Anyway though, that was quite funny, and I'm surprised that updates are coming along relatively quickly! I caught up a few months ago, and it seemed like updates were in a bit of a dry spell then.

[Faltenin]

"What are you trying to tell me, Mr Scruffy? Little Timmy fell down the well?" :smallsmile:

I like how the alignments are really well played out - Durkon doesn't actually tell a lie, he just picks the truth that will get him through with minimal hassle... :smallbiggrin:

[DougTheHead]

Yay! Durkon solo adventure!

I like the implication in the fifth panel that Roy and Belkar have managed to get themselves carted off to jail in nearly every town they've been in so far.

Only thirty strips left? Does it seem to anyone else that this arc has been short compared to the ones before it?

[kerberos]

Oh, dear god. The fourth wall would be weeping.

But you MURDERED it, Rich. I hope you're happy. :smalltongue:

Nah, Rich murdered the Fourth wall in the very first strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html). Now he's just desecrating it's bleeding, broken corpse.

[DrGonzo]

Woohoo! Durkon's back!

[Ancalagon]

I like how Durkon not-lies. ;)

[factotum]

I think Roy would have got the papers as well if he'd been aware of the necessity, but when you drop into the middle of the city using Wind Walk you tend to miss little details like that.

The innkeeper was presumably fined because he let them have a room without checking their papers, I guess?

[The Giant]

This is my first post here. I'm reading OOTS since the very beginning. What's great with OOTS is that it's one of the only place on the internet where you can escape the usual bitter partisanship and shouting matches in other stupid forums. Really, I always enjoyed OOTS and was looking forward to it every evening... until now.

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. I think that these were the last strips for me and I won't be coming back. I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.

PS: My main argument about all this is that I came here in the 90s through the legal channel, waited in line, paid the fees and did the paperwork for all the various immigration steps and finally became a US citizen in 2005. So, yes. Contrary to a lot of people talking about the issue, I know quite a bit about the topic and I do not appreciate a bit anyone cutting in line who moreover has the nerve to complain about it.

As usual, there are no references to current politics beyond those readers invent for themselves. But hey, stop reading if it makes you feel better.

At any rate, the rest of you know that politics is a no-fly zone around here, so let's drop the conversation around it.

[Garwain]

Obviously Durkon will retrieve Haley's bow and dagger. But will he salvage Belkar's drink as well?

Dun Dun duuuuun.....

PS: time for the Durkon development I've been waiting for!

[Barlen]

I was expecting something like this, but thats cool. Awesome punchline. Love Durkon.


With that said I had a conversation with my players back in a 2ed game....I'll spoiler the nitpicking to avoid being a downer.

My players wanted to exit the City of Greyhawk at one point and wanted to use stone shape. I didn't permit it through the city wall on the grounds that the wall was too thick. Typical city walls of that era were on the order of 20' thick. The City of Greyhawk box set specifically stated theirs were 18' thick. The spell (3.5 ed, not going back to look up what it was in 2ed) states that it can affect 10 cu ft + 1 cu ft per level. Durkon is 15ish (or less, I forget and I'm not looking it up atm) so thats 25 cu ft. Since I doubt he can squeeze through a 1 cu ft square, I'll assume a 2'x2' square to crawl through. Thats 4 cu ft for each foot of depth through the wall and he runs out of spell after about 6'.

So.....those are some mighty thin city walls

Or we could just call it rule of funny :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

The last panel is pure comedy gold. Thanks, Giant. :smallsmile:


God, if I debated politics here, especially as a mere Pixie, I would get banhammered so fast. MUST...RESIST...!


Politic is off topic here, you're right, but the titles are used for fun: post counts mean nothing, and Mods won't treat you more harshly because of your low post count. :smallwink:

[Darthteej]

At any rate, the rest of you know that politics is a no-fly zone around here, so let's drop the conversation around it.

:confused: :annoyed: :mad: :furious: :sigh: :smile:

[Phishfood]

Well, that made my morning. Do you get the feeling that durkon isn't a cat person?


Y'know, this comic highlighted something a bit subtle: the evolution of Rich's use of color. Go back and look at the first twenty strips. Everything was bright, high-contrast colors. Now compare to the last twenty twenty strips. Each strip has its own particular color palette, and the colors of each strip are tastefully chosen.

It's a subtle thing, but it elevates the comic from the rest and deserves some recognition. Well done, sir. claps

I do believe its partly because the original colours showed up terribly in print. There were a couple comments in DCF, one directly in the text and another comment in a bonus panel (or was that in SOD?) about resolution.

[Ashram]

I think they're called 'Orisons'. Also more Durkon is always appreciated.

I'm really surprised you're the only one who caught this. Since when did Durkon take an arcane spellcaster level? 0 level spells for divine casters are always orisons.

Of course, it's pretty obvious he only mentioned cantrips so that Mr. Scruffy would confuse it with "catnip".

[ss49]

I don't think Mr. Scruffy had any problem recognizing the word "cantrip"; Durkon was the one not understanding correctly.

Nice lampshade hanging at the end, there.

[abbott.e]

We see Haley's bow and dagger, and the wanted poster, but where's Roy's sword, (and Belkar's knives)?It seems odd that the Guards would confiscate their personal weapons, but would leave their friends weapons behind.

[snikrept]

So if it's that easy why didn't they do that the first time ><

[Reptar]

What's fifty five in Dwarf years? The average first level dwarven cleric is 61.
I do love Durkon though, and the spell stone shape, great to see them together.

[warmachine]

I wanna know how Belkar, Durkon and Roy got in without encountering any bureaucratic guards.

[Bedinsis]

I don't play Dungeons and Dragons. What does the spell Stone Shape do? Does it allow you to reformat the form of something made of stone, such as the wall?

My initial thought was that Durkon petrified Mr. Scruffy to make sure he wouldn't leave while he got his papers.

[hamishspence]

I wanna know how Belkar, Durkon and Roy got in without encountering any bureaucratic guards.

Wind walk over the walls at a fairly quiet spot?

EDIT: Stone shape to walk through the wall has been mentioned earlier.

[St Fan]

"What are you trying to tell me, Mr Scruffy? Little Timmy fell down the well?" :smallsmile:



Please note that Timmy never fell down in a well (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimmyInAWell). He fell in a whole lot of things, but never a well.

[St Fan]

I wanna know how Belkar, Durkon and Roy got in without encountering any bureaucratic guards.

What about reading the actual webcomic, where the answer to this question lie plainly?

Or even the beginning of this thread, where the question was already answered once or twice?

[hamishspence]

Is it then a case of Beam Me Up Scotty- a famous phrase which was never actually said in its original form?

Like "Play it again, Sam" (Casablanca) or "Elementary, my dear Watson"?

[The MunchKING]

You need a particularly jaded reality filter to see this strip as commenting on anything that could be called "current politics". All countries I've been to (about 30, at last count) have required paperwork on entry for as long as I can remember. That's hardly "current politics".

Well I've heard the US HAS gotten tighter about paperwork from places you formally didn't have to have them in the post 9-11 days. But that's all I'll say on THAT.

I certainly didn't see any refrence to current politics. In the "getting a entery pass" stage.

[lothos]

So how long before Durkon needs detect magic or some other cantrip?

Just what I was thinking too. Though it might just be rule of funny for a 1 panel joke about catnip, I have a feeling that he will need some cantrip pretty soon :-)

I'm really enjoying the strip, as usual. Though I haven't posted for a while about the strips, I just wanted to emphasise how much I've enjoyed all the strips recently throughout the life of the comic.

[St Fan]

Is it then a case of Beam Me Up Scotty- a famous phrase which was never actually said in its original form?

Like "Play it again, Sam" (Casablanca) or "Elementary, my dear Watson"?

Yes, that's one Beam Me Up Scotty.

Still, that strip is a perfect example of the Timmy in a Well trope... not being parodied, subverted, or even lampshaded. Hey, it happens, even in this comic.

[Helaman]

This is my first post here. I'm reading OOTS since the very beginning. What's great with OOTS is that it's one of the only place on the internet where you can escape the usual bitter partisanship and shouting matches in other stupid forums. Really, I always enjoyed OOTS and was looking forward to it every evening... until now.

The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. I think that these were the last strips for me and I won't be coming back. I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.

This is my first post on the forums - created largely due to this first post. Cant claim I've been reading since day 1, its more around ep 100 or so.

Since then I've seen readers read into the comics anti-gay, anti-[insert country of choice], sexist, anti Christian, anti religon, anti-war etc etc etc sentiments and get all huffy.

With respect I'd ask you to not throw this into the bin because you are reading into this a local/current politican situation - this storyline started waaaaay before the situation and is more a parady of alignment than anything else, and not the first time the author has done that.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar - This is a comic, not a New York Times editioral.

Oh, and so I don't use my first post just for this...

Thank you Rich for the last 3 years of entertainment and laughs you've given me. OoTS has been a life saver for me in someways as I worked overseas and was lost for those little touches of familar humour etc.

Its an excellent comic that, like wine, gets better as it matures.

[Mauve Shirt]

@ ^ Rich, not Rick. :smallwink:

Love the punchline. Good strip, Giant. :smallbiggrin:

[Kareasint]

I don't play Dungeons and Dragons. What does the spell Stone Shape do? Does it allow you to reformat the form of something made of stone, such as the wall?

My initial thought was that Durkon petrified Mr. Scruffy to make sure he wouldn't leave while he got his papers.

Stone Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneShape.htm)

It lets you reshape stone anyway that you desire. In this case, it creates a hole for Durkon to walk through. The City wall does not look that thick since you can see the other side through the hole. Well within the area of effect for the spell.

I did not know that Stone Shape worked on the fourth wall. That could explain how it gets bypassed so easily.

[Roger_Druid]

Hi!

I really, rally, really loved Durkon back! However, cleric and 'cantrips' make me wonder: is it possible or is it Rich's humour?

Roger Druid

[talkamancer]

Whats that skip ? Little Timmys fallen down the well ?

[Monzach]

I love the customs and immigration jokes that the OOTS has had over the stories. :smallbiggrin: And I do think that the Empire of Blood has a surprisingly lax policy for entry into the realm. Also, do they get a whole lot of "religious pilgrims" in the Empire? :smalltongue:

[ScIaDrd]

Nice.to see Durkon again. And he is so Lawful he is awesome. Brilliant use of Stone Shape too.:smallcool:

[Magnema]

Damage control to the 4th Wall are on the way.

They'll need backup.

How do you know it's the fourth wall, not one of the other three? And how do you number walls, anyway?:smallwink:

[Athaniar]

Durkon, Scruffy, Fourth Wall desecration... A good one, and I wonder is the cantrips bit is just accidental, or something else.

Also, Fourth Wall explained (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourthWall).

[Mojique]

Was it the first Durkon-only page since 353?

[Kaytara]

Durkon in the spotlight? About damn time! :D

[Gwynfrid]

I love it how Durkon's Lawful instinct leads him to the only sensible course of action under the circumstances. Had this happened to any other OOTS member, disaster would probably have ensued.

Although... Better hope his casting of Stone Shape had no witness. That spell has an "instantaneous" duration, which means the hole is non-magical and will remain until repaired (by another Stone Shape or by mundane means). Making holes through city walls can't possibly be legal in the Empire of Blood, or anywhere else for that matter.

[centuriancode]

How do you know it's the fourth wall, not one of the other three? And how do you number walls, anyway?:smallwink:

It's a phrase from theatrical productions. There are three walls around the stage (usually curtains, sometimes cardboard, and very occaisionally invisible) which are used to delineate the area of action.

The Fourth Wall is the imaginary wall at the front of the stage which is assumed as the reason why the characters don't know that there's an audience watching them. When the characters interact with the audience, or in any way acknowledge that their existence is ficitonal, that's Breaking The Fourth Wall.

[Phishfood]

I love it how Durkon's Lawful instinct leads him to the only sensible course of action under the circumstances. Had this happened to any other OOTS member, disaster would probably have ensued.

Although... Better hope his casting of Stone Shape had no witness. That spell has an "instantaneous" duration, which means the hole is non-magical and will remain until repaired (by another Stone Shape or by mundane means). Making holes through city walls can't possibly be legal in the Empire of Blood, or anywhere else for that matter.

Surely D will be nice enough to put it back afterwards, being LG and all.

[Protecar]

This made me mucho happy seeing Durkon get his some spotlight! :D

And I agree with everyone who's said that Durkon + Scruffy = win. :smallbiggrin:

[St Fan]

And I do think that the Empire of Blood has a surprisingly lax policy for entry into the realm.

Well, that's the entrance of the city, not the Empire border. So it's more of a like lax policy for entering in the main town, since it is probably assumed you already legally entered the country.

[St Fan]

Rereading the strip had me pondering about something.

I got the gyst of the "Och, not AGAIN!" joke, though I'm not too sure what Durkon is reffering to exactly.

- The party has been split, again.
- The party ended up in prison, again. (Unlikely, since he doesn't know what happened yet.)
- Some party members have disappeared, again.
- Or: Durkon has been separated from the rest of the party, again. (Call back all the way to the Dungeon of Dorukan.)

Of course, it could be "all of the above".

[Onyavar]

On an unrelated speculation, wouldn't it be funny, when the officer ask in the next strip
Officer: Class and profession?
Durkon: Cleric, Adventurer
Officer: Uh-huh. What level?
Durkon: Fourteen.
Officer: Adventurers above 8th level are considered as danger to the empire by the Revolution Prevention Act from 1184, paragraph 4. You're arrested.
Durkon: Whuuut??



The last 2 strips puts current politics in this entertaining comics and this is just sad. I happened to be supportive of the recently signed law in that other desert state and this truly turns me off as a reader. [...] I'll probably be scorned and yelled at in this forum, so be it.


I still don't get it. What has your approval of Iran riot control (or whatever you mean by "desert state" :smallconfused:) to do with this comic? I consider myself quite informed on world politics, reading and listening about it every day, but I honestly couldn't find any "obvious link" to any recent political decisions in the last strips. I think (as others also pointed out) that your're reading way too much into this. This strip and this forum have never seriously delved into politics.



At any rate, the rest of you know that politics is a no-fly zone around here, so let's drop the conversation around it.

Edit: Sorry, missed your post there. Note to self: Always read all posts before replying.

[Barstro]

Proving once again that Mr. Scruffy is the true brains of the party.

Has it all been a triple bluff? Was Mr. Scruffy really the power behind Azure City? Was Shojo pretending to be a competent ruler pretending to be crazy so that Mr. Scruffy could rule?

Is Mr. Scruffy actually;
Fizban?

[LuPuWei]

Great Strip!


If everyone has paperwork, then there should be a database, since no bureaucrat can resist all that extra filing. Perhaps they will look Girard up?

You might be on to something there....

[factotum]

My players wanted to exit the City of Greyhawk at one point and wanted to use stone shape. I didn't permit it through the city wall on the grounds that the wall was too thick. Typical city walls of that era were on the order of 20' thick. The City of Greyhawk box set specifically stated theirs were 18' thick. The spell (3.5 ed, not going back to look up what it was in 2ed) states that it can affect 10 cu ft + 1 cu ft per level. Durkon is 15ish (or less, I forget and I'm not looking it up atm) so thats 25 cu ft. Since I doubt he can squeeze through a 1 cu ft square, I'll assume a 2'x2' square to crawl through. Thats 4 cu ft for each foot of depth through the wall and he runs out of spell after about 6'.

So.....those are some mighty thin city walls


I don't see that as necessarily being an issue. We don't know this city has been here long--the Empire of Blood itself certainly isn't more than a couple of years old, so the wall doesn't necessarily need to be the sort of thickness you're assigning to it. As a sort of example, the first castles to go up in England after William conquered it in 1066 were basically earth mounds with wooden palisades round the top, it wasn't for a good few decades that the first stone buildings started to go up! (Since they're in a desert territory it's probably easier for them to get stone than wood, but it doesn't mean they've made the wall very thick or sturdy).

[TerrickTerran]

A funny comic with Durkon.....that's very cool.

[sihnfahl]

So if it's that easy why didn't they do that the first time ><
1) They didn't know about the need for papers.

2) They're adventurers. They're a little too used to just arriving in a plot location without having to deal with things like 'borders'.

[Svella]

Gee, I hope Durkon picked up Hailey's items (the bow and the dagger in panel 5) because I don't want to see the mental breakdown when she learns that her +5 weapons are gone :smallbiggrin:

[Larkspur]

Re. wall thickness: Medieval walls tended to be thick because they were what kept besiegers out of a city and you didn't want the enemy to be able to knock them down with catapults. In a world where any serious invading force would have enough air power at least to drop someone inside the city to unlock the gate, this is probably much less of a concern, and there's no incentive to make them so expensively thick.

Plus, if my head of state were a giant catapult-setting-on-fire dragon, I'd be a lot less worried about the catapult issue. A serious army like Redcloak's is going to be unstoppable even with real walls- we saw what happened to Azure City's much thicker ones- and a dinky army with one or two catapults would never make it within firing range because the Empress could firebomb the crap out of them. Having an airforce makes a HUGE difference to military strategy.

[Blaznak]

Wow, this strip has a dwarf in it? (Just kidding) Its been a long time since we saw Durkon. Good to see him again.

[Lkctgo]

Hmm, is Rich trying to tell us the length of the storyline? haha.

[Mercenary Pen]

Slight nitpick here, surely Durkon- being a divine caster- should have been preparing Orisons and not Cantrips... Won't say that the cantrip/catnip mix-up wasn't funny, but technically cantrips are for arcanists...

[Draxonicar]

It's kinda big... I like it!

[rewinn]

@ ^ Rich, not Rick. :smallwink:


But "Everybody Come's to Rick's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everybody_Comes_to_Rick's)" ... on the basis of which desert-city trophe, I predictDurkon tries to buy exit visa and encounters his old dwarven girlfriend!

[BillyJimBoBob]

STONE. SHAPE.

He just used it to leave... seriously...Sure, but why not just land (assuming they used Wind Walk to make the distance go by faster, which makes a lot of sense), and then queue up to enter the gates? They aren't here for any sinister purpose, as far as the EoB is concerned. They just came to get their friends out of trouble, and they know that the bounty notice wasn't for Elan and Haley. And even if they considered that their purpose was sinister as far as the EoB was concerned, getting in under semi-false pretexts would have been trivial, as Durkon just demonstrated.

They seem to have simply missed the requirement to have entry papers, which seems odd unless they flew in and bypassed the queue at the gate. But I agree that they would probably have been challenged by guards had they just landed within sight of one. And there seem to be plenty of them. So it's a bit odd.


Some people just see what they want to see...The Boxer!


You [Xpat] obviously know a lot about the subject, so it colors how you interpret this strip. It's probably not a reference to the Arizona laws at all.Hell, if a person is going to see a reference here, which looks like a stretch to me, I'd think they should be seeing a supporting reference, not one which makes them sign up to say goodbye. Just look how it works in EoB: Don't have papers in this city? Come along, you're under arrest.

I kinda dig it when the NPCs get in on the 4th wall breakage. This gate guard, Tarquin being all happy that Elan was a protagonist, etc. Is it just me?

[bsparrow]

Has it all been a triple bluff? Was Mr. Scruffy really the power behind Azure City? Was Shojo pretending to be a competent ruler pretending to be crazy so that Mr. Scruffy could rule?

Is Mr. Scruffy actually;
Fizban?

Nah, those trees aren't epileptic enough. Obviously Mr. Scruffy is

Roy's dad, Zz'dri, or a heretofore unknown cat-based deity.

Obviously.

[Optimystik]

Yay, a Durkon strip!

[Kumo]

Sure, but why not just land (assuming they used Wind Walk to make the distance go by faster, which makes a lot of sense), and then queue up to enter the gates? They aren't here for any sinister purpose, as far as the EoB is concerned. They just came to get their friends out of trouble, and they know that the bounty notice wasn't for Elan and Haley. And even if they considered that their purpose was sinister as far as the EoB was concerned, getting in under semi-false pretexts would have been trivial, as Durkon just demonstrated.

They seem to have simply missed the requirement to have entry papers, which seems odd unless they flew in and bypassed the queue at the gate. But I agree that they would probably have been challenged by guards had they just landed within sight of one. And there seem to be plenty of them. So it's a bit odd.

Not really. their friends are in trouble so expediency is extremely important.

Even if that were not the case, i cite the FAQ that i'm too lazy to link to: the characters are woefully inefficient on a regular basis to make things tougher for them and to make situations funnier.

[B.I.T.T.]

Checklist:

Durkon rocks!

The cat rocks!

The fourth wall is a small pile of rocks.


Great strip.

[the_tick_rules]

Doesn't stone shape only have an effect on rock that hasn't been worked upon? Or is this just gonna be one of those it's a comic deal with it.

[Shale]

Doesn't stone shape only have an effect on rock that hasn't been worked upon? Or is this just gonna be one of those it's a comic deal with it.

"You can form an existing piece of stone into any shape that suits your purpose. While it’s possible to make crude coffers, doors, and so forth with stone shape, fine detail isn’t possible. There is a 30% chance that any shape including moving parts simply doesn’t work."

Looks good to me.

[Boci]

Doesn't stone shape only have an effect on rock that hasn't been worked upon? Or is this just gonna be one of those it's a comic deal with it.

That's stone to mud. Ruined my idea for a siege.

[Sengoku]

The last 2 panels were amazing, this is like:' True Giant 100% Breaking the 4th Wall :P'

[Big Hungry Joe]

I enjoyed this one, particularly Durkon's resourcefulness. He is definitely the rock of the group. Ugh, sorry

[Excalibur]

Wow. 55? That's amazingly young for a dwarf! And a high level Cleric, no less!

[Neopolis]

A Durkon arc? I hope so!

[pendell]

Stupid joke cleared as stupid.


Other matters ... In any case, glad to see Durkon Thundershield may FINALLY get some character development. Who knows? Maybe in awhile we'll be able to differentiate him from every other dwarven PC.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[tomandtish]

I love this comic as it appears to tell us a few things:

1) Roy, Belkar and Durkon did enter without going through a gate, but presumably not with a deliberate intent to avoid documentation (since Roy seems surprised by the need for papers).

2) They haven’t been there too long, or the papers issue would probably have come up already. It’s a reasonable assumption that they probably went straight there to get a room.

3) You’d better have your papers (Citizenship or entry) on you at all times.

4) Since the tavern owner got fined for lodging Roy and Belkar when they didn’t have their papers, at least some businesses are required to ask for papers before providing goods or services. I wonder if it is all businesses or just some. If all, that strengthens the “just got there” theory.

5) Looking at panel 7, you also have to show papers to leave? That’s what it looks like the guy with the camel is doing as far as I can tell.

In short, tough place to be. I’ll be curious to see if the who “Elan’s Dad” issue makes things easier or harder for them.

[Darthteej]

Stupid joke cleared as stupid.


Other matters ... In any case, glad to see Durkon Thundershield may FINALLY get some character development. Who knows? Maybe in awhile we'll be able to differentiate him from every other dwarven PC.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Durkon has both character development, and a distinguishing personality. The "same as every dwarf" joke was for the sake of a joke, not to mention the fact that Haley and Durkon don't talk much.

[eplmania]

I like the subtle Idiocracy reference.

[rewinn]

Not really. their friends are in trouble so expediency is extremely important.

Even if that were not the case, i cite the FAQ that i'm too lazy to link to: the characters are woefully inefficient on a regular basis to make things tougher for them and to make situations funnier.

PLUS: it's never really been an issue before.

They've been to several large cities, e.g. teleported into Cliffport, and didn't have a "papers please" problem even after they met the local cops.

It's just a screw-up, which makes it funnY!

[MonkeyBusiness]

:durkon: "... Och, not AGAIN!"

Yay! Again!

I laughed at Mr. Scruffy clawing at the door. I know how distracting that can be: I have a dog who moos when she needs to go outside! She walks up to me, stares right into my eyes and Moooooooaahns like a humpback singing during the mating season. Wow. It's hard to ignore a pet that is determined to get your attention!

Good thing, too, because as someone else pointed out earlier in this thread Mr. Scruffy is pretty clearly the brains of the outfit. :smallwink:

One thing I like about OOTS is the way it incorporates real life: standing in line, and having to fill out paperwork that doesn't really mean that much (unless you don't have it) are the sorts of irritating things we do all the time. It's nice to be able to laugh about it.

MBiz

.

[Kareasint]

Checklist:

Durkon rocks!

The cat rocks!

The fourth wall is a small pile of rocks.


Great strip.

Nah, the fourth wall just has a dwarf sized hole in it. Unless Durkon cast Stone Shape again to seal the hole (which would be a very good idea).

[MReav]

Wait... how did they get into the city without the proper papers? Did Haley sneak them in or something?

[Shale]

How did Durkon get out of the city without proper papers? Magic.

[Knaight]

Politic is off topic here, you're right, but the titles are used for fun: post counts mean nothing, and Mods won't treat you more harshly because of your low post count. :smallwink:

And if you don't bump into the topic too hard, you should be fine. I've accidentally crossed the acceptable religion line...twice now, but because it was never blatant, and always related to gaming, I'm still at 0 points (I think you can accumulate 300 before banning, but can get insta-banned for what basically boils down to being cruel to people.), the rules of this forum are fairly forgiving. If anything, a low post count is just an indication you haven't had time to rack up the minor offenses yet.

[B.I.T.T.]

Nah, the fourth wall just has a dwarf sized hole in it. Unless Durkon cast Stone Shape again to seal the hole (which would be a very good idea).

Eh...why bother repairing the whole in the fourth wall, someone else will doubtlessly need to use the hole sometime in the future.

[Kumo]

And if you don't bump into the topic too hard, you should be fine. I've accidentally crossed the acceptable religion line...twice now, but because it was never blatant, and always related to gaming, I'm still at 0 points (I think you can accumulate 300 before banning, but can get insta-banned for what basically boils down to being cruel to people.), the rules of this forum are fairly forgiving. If anything, a low post count is just an indication you haven't had time to rack up the minor offenses yet.
Yeah, at three hundred the account is submitted for review for banning.

On topic:It looks like you might have to present your papers on your way out, too, though with the camel facing towards the city i could be wrong :smallconfused:

[Darcy]

Durkon, he gets it in!

Glad to see him again :smallbiggrin:

[Teleporker]

First it was the "mechanical defect" in Azure city's prison, and now the "I was sent into human lands" line.

Durkon should do more of these truth manipulation lines more often. It totally rocks when he does it!

[dps]

I think they're called 'Orisons'. Also more Durkon is always appreciated.

Nay, the family name of the Roy in the comic is Greenhilt. Roy Orbison is a totally different guy.












:smallbiggrin:

[dps]

Oh, 2 things are really getting on my nerves:

First, next person who askes "how did they get in without papers", I'm going to find out you RL identity, and come to your house and eat all your food. Read the dang thread before you post in it! That question has been asked and answered at least 4 times in this thread, and several times in the discussion thread for the previous strip.

Second, there's NO BREAKING OF THE 4TH WALL IN STRIP #732! Breaking the 4th wall occurs when a character directly addresses the audience or readers. In this strip, when Durkon speaks, he's either talking to the cat, himself, the innkeeper, or the guard---not the readers.

[Darcy]

it's kind of meta, but theoretically, the rules of D&D are a part of their universe and do exist on "their" side of the wall as well as ours.

[Lateral]

Hah... metahumor. Suck on it, all-those-people-who-said-the-strip-was-getting-boring! :smalltongue:

[Agi Hammerthief]

Second, there's NO BREAKING OF THE 4TH WALL IN STRIP #732! Breaking the 4th wall occurs when a character directly addresses the audience or readers. In this strip, when Durkon speaks, he's either talking to the cat, himself, the innkeeper, or the guard---not the readers.
so its not broken, only slightly scratched? :smalltongue:

[sihnfahl]

Second, there's NO BREAKING OF THE 4TH WALL IN STRIP #732!
So Durkon saying that he'll be in the city until the end of the current plotline, and informing the guard that that'll be about 30 strips, not 20, isn't indirectly breaking the fourth wall?

[Niveus Candidus]

My players wanted to exit the City of Greyhawk at one point and wanted to use stone shape. I didn't permit it through the city wall on the grounds that the wall was too thick. Typical city walls of that era were on the order of 20' thick. The City of Greyhawk box set specifically stated theirs were 18' thick. The spell (3.5 ed, not going back to look up what it was in 2ed) states that it can affect 10 cu ft + 1 cu ft per level. Durkon is 15ish (or less, I forget and I'm not looking it up atm) so thats 25 cu ft. Since I doubt he can squeeze through a 1 cu ft square, I'll assume a 2'x2' square to crawl through. Thats 4 cu ft for each foot of depth through the wall and he runs out of spell after about 6'.

So.....those are some mighty thin city walls

I believe your math is wrong. A cubic foot contains 1728 cubic inches. We’ll use an assumed level of 15 for Dwarfy McBearded Face here for the 25 cubic feet with the spell. That’s 43200 cubic inches of spell to play with. A hole 36” wide, 36” tall and a whopping 24” deep would be large enough for a dwarf (And most humans) to move through and require the melding of 31104 cubic inches of stone; 18 cubic feet. Shorty McRoundfur has spell to spare.

Did I miss a math class?

[Boci]

So Durkon saying that he'll be in the city until the end of the current plotline, and informing the guard that that'll be about 30 strips, not 20, isn't indirectly breaking the fourth wall?

I believe dps is saying that that is just Durkon using metaknowledge. If he turned to the audience and said "Sorry folks, you won't see the others for 20 strips" that would be breaking the 4th wall (and using metaknowledge).

[Doug Lampert]

If everyone has paperwork, then there should be a database, since no bureaucrat can resist all that extra filing. Perhaps they will look Girard up?

"Database? What's that? There's 48 file cabinets, one for each month for the last 2 years (all the time this empire has existed) + 236 holding the records issued at the time of the takeover."

"What order are they in? The order the clerks submitted them to be filed in of course? That's assuming that no one has taken them out to look at them and been careless about putting them back. What other order would we use?"

"How do you find an entry? Well, you know what month it was given in, so search the cabinet for that month. For paperwork at the founding of the current order it's supposed to be organized by area of residence, but a lot are out of order because people move and a lot of people actually registered at work rather than at home."

It is difficult for many nowadays to imagine just how BAD the filing could get without computers. Go back before things like the Dewey decimal system and they could be far far worse than that. Go back to prior to spellings being standardized and even alphebetization is impractical.

[LuPuWei]

Nah, those trees aren't epileptic enough. Obviously Mr. Scruffy is

Roy's dad, Zz'dri, or a heretofore unknown cat-based deity.

Obviously.

No, Mr Scruffy is

The MitD's father!

[Niveus Candidus]

"How do you find an entry?

Magic? Have we considered magic?

[Doug Lampert]

Re. wall thickness: Medieval walls tended to be thick because they were what kept besiegers out of a city and you didn't want the enemy to be able to knock them down with catapults. In a world where any serious invading force would have enough air power at least to drop someone inside the city to unlock the gate, this is probably much less of a concern, and there's no incentive to make them so expensively thick.

Close but not quite IMAO. Pre-cannon seige engines other than those used in contact with the walls were VERY poor at actual destruction of walls. The target for such things was the great mass of wooden topworks that almost all walls had providing cover for those on them. (And that most moderns don't know about since even where the walls have survived the wood has been gone for centuries.)

Additionally, as was the case once canon came in, any missile based attack on the walls themselves would have been countered with lower, more gently sloped walls. Vertical stone walls are EXTREMELY vulnerable to bombardment once you get a decent bombardement weapon.

What killed walls pre-canon was undermining, which thickness is pretty well the only defense against. And undermining takes a LONG time, it isn't going to happen very often in D&D land unless the attackers have a tunneling monster on their side, in which case the wall is pointless. So either way, no reason to build it thick.

[Zea mays]

Obviously Durkon will retrieve Haley's bow and dagger. But will he salvage Belkar's drink as well?

Dun Dun duuuuun.....

PS: time for the Durkon development I've been waiting for!
Sadly, it is evident in panel 5 that Belkar's delicious cup of orange juice has been spilled on the floor. :smallsigh:

[Siosilvar]

I believe your math is wrong. A cubic foot contains 1728 cubic inches. We’ll use an assumed level of 15 for Dwarfy McBearded Face here for the 25 cubic feet with the spell. That’s 43200 cubic inches of spell to play with. A hole 36” wide, 36” tall and a whopping 24” deep would be large enough for a dwarf (And most humans) to move through and require the melding of 31104 cubic inches of stone; 18 cubic feet. Shorty McRoundfur has spell to spare.

Did I miss a math class?

You missed a historical 18-foot-wide wall. Potentially; we don't know how wide this wall is (though it's probably around 4 feet thick or less if drawn to scale).

[ekedolphin]

Y'know, if Durkon had done this well of a job explaining his mission in On the Origin of PC's, perhaps the several years before he met Roy would've turned out a lot differently.

[Doug Lampert]

You missed a historical 18-foot-wide wall. Potentially; we don't know how wide this wall is (though it's probably around 4 feet thick or less if drawn to scale).

Any serious fortification outer wall is thick enough AT THE TOP to have multiple ranks stand in formation. You may need to use it as a road to move men in action, and you need to be able to form up to hold off attackers when they bring up a tower or whatever.

The major actual defense for the fighters is the topworks and parapet, but the main thickness of the top of the wall is almost sure to be 10' thick or more at the top. That's not for structural strength, it's just to do the basic job of holding defenders.

Consider how thick the great wall of china is, and they weren't really worried about siege engines or anything when they built that. It's simply that 10' or more is needed to be a functional fortification wall.

Adding to that, even allegedly vertical stone fortifications have walls with some batter (backward slope), and are likely to be substantially thicker at the base than at the top.

18' at the base strikes me as on the thin side for a real city wall. But as was mentioned in earlier posts D&D walls MAY be much thinner (you can use much cheaper wooden scafolding to hold the fighters when the wall isn't a really serious military barrier anyway).

That said, the Azure city wall appeared to be about 10' across at the top based on the combat scenes. That would not be atypical in our world, and the EoB wall doesn't show any real signs of the sort of wooden works that would be needed for an 24" wall to work.

[dps]

I believe dps is saying that that is just Durkon using metaknowledge. If he turned to the audience and said "Sorry folks, you won't see the others for 20 strips" that would be breaking the 4th wall (and using metaknowledge).

Yes, that's correct.

[tomandtish]

Oh, 2 things are really getting on my nerves:


Second, there's NO BREAKING OF THE 4TH WALL IN STRIP #732! Breaking the 4th wall occurs when a character directly addresses the audience or readers. In this strip, when Durkon speaks, he's either talking to the cat, himself, the innkeeper, or the guard---not the readers.

From WordIQ.com: The term breaking the fourth wall is used in film, theater, television, and literary works; it refers to a character directly addressing an audience, or actively acknowledging (through breaking character or through dialogue) that the characters and action going on is not real.

Definitions vary. I have found definitions that state it is directly addressing the audience (and only this). But I have also found plenty of definitions (like the one above) that indicate it is an acknowledgement that this is not reality. In this case, Durkon and the guard are acknowledging they are in a comic (by referring to plotline and strips). They are therefore breaking the 4th wall.

Of course, your mileage may vary. TV Tropes sticks more closely to your definition, and calls what they are doing in this particular strip Medium Awareness (they acknowledge that they are in a comic without directly addressing the audience). However, many of the OOTS examples they have in their 4th wall examples would be like this as well, so…

Anyway, I tend to use the broad definition. If the characters acknowledge (directly or indirectly) that they are not real, they have broken the 4th wall.

[ChowGuy]

So Durkon saying that he'll be in the city until the end of the current plotline, and informing the guard that that'll be about 30 strips, not 20, isn't indirectly breaking the fourth wall?

Nope, that's merely Durkon acknowleginging his awareness of the nature of his world (ie, that he's a a comic strip) That's hardly a new development, nor is it the most blatant example.

Or to put it another way: What is the "fourth wall" of which you speak? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html)

[Niveus Candidus]

18 FEET thick! Wow, now that's interesting. That would mean High Priest Dworf l'Doorf, the Dwarf of the Bearded Chapterhouse Dawfinsons United would either need to cast the spell 3 times, or be caster level 62!

[AratanAenor]

My players wanted to exit the City of Greyhawk at one point and wanted to use stone shape. I didn't permit it through the city wall on the grounds that the wall was too thick. Typical city walls of that era were on the order of 20' thick. The City of Greyhawk box set specifically stated theirs were 18' thick. The spell (3.5 ed, not going back to look up what it was in 2ed) states that it can affect 10 cu ft + 1 cu ft per level. Durkon is 15ish (or less, I forget and I'm not looking it up atm) so thats 25 cu ft. Since I doubt he can squeeze through a 1 cu ft square, I'll assume a 2'x2' square to crawl through. Thats 4 cu ft for each foot of depth through the wall and he runs out of spell after about 6'.

So.....those are some mighty thin city walls

Well, the hole he created looks rather small, he would have needed to cast additional stone shapes to make it wider. It only shows the first casting.

[Lukraak]

I wonder what would cause your entry to be denied?

Reason for entering "Starting a revolution for freedom and and goodness"

[Defiant]

Oh my god...

Rich broke both the third and the fourth walls!

:smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Well, the hole he created looks rather small, he would have needed to cast additional stone shapes to make it wider. It only shows the first casting.

Why would he have prepared multiple copies of Stone Shape? He had already got all his spells for the day when he found out the problem, remember.

The wall definitely doesn't look to be very thick--when Durkon casts Stone Shape on it you can see a differently-coloured area that looks like it might be the other side of the wall; if it IS, then that wall is about two feet thick at the base!

[Beanie]

"I be done 'cept fer tha cantrips anyway."

Who wants to bet he's going to end up in a situation where he needs a cantrip?

[Ave]

STONE. SHAPE.

He just used it to leave... seriously...

If they used stone shape to get in, they should have known there are papers needed at the gate and they wanted to avoid the trouble.

[Agi Hammerthief]

"I be done 'cept fer tha cantrips anyway."

Who wants to bet he's going to end up in a situation where he needs a cantrip?

chances are 50/50 it's a thowaway gag with the catnips or a Chekows Gnu

[LuPuWei]

I wonder what would cause your entry to be denied?

Reason for entering "Starting a revolution for freedom and and goodness"

:nale: - "Actually, the Empire of Blood welcomes Immigrant Revolutionaries. We even have a special program for them. If you step this way and hand over your weapons to the goblin over there (they will be returned to you to you shortly after completion of formalities) and we will show you to your 'special accomodations'."

Next Morning: Free XPs everyone, at the KilliitYourself Good Revolutionary Emporium! Hurry while the body parts last!

[St Fan]

chances are 50/50 it's a thowaway gag with the catnips or a Chekows Gnu

A Chekows Gnu? That's a ruminant, right? :smalltongue:

[DogChan]

I found it to be quite an interesting stip. The story was good and a nice gag at the end, made be laugh a little.

This is a good way to start a saturday of work xD

[The-Mage-King]

You know what the cantrips part makes me think?

Durkon's multiclassed to Wizard. Only Arcane casters get Cantrips. For Clerics and Druids, those are called Orisons.

[silas the monk]

You know what the cantrips part makes me think?

Durkon's multiclassed to Wizard. Only Arcane casters get Cantrips. For Clerics and Druids, those are called Orisons.

Dwarvish dialect? Too much time spent with Varsuvius? Perhaps his head never recovered from the fight with the tree and so he cannot even remember his age. Anyway the joke would not have worked and JOKES RULE!

[Niveus Candidus]

Why would he have prepared multiple copies of Stone Shape? He had already got all his spells for the day when he found out the problem, remember.

The wall definitely doesn't look to be very thick--when Durkon casts Stone Shape on it you can see a differently-coloured area that looks like it might be the other side of the wall; if it IS, then that wall is about two feet thick at the base!

We're chatting about how many castings of stone shape would be required to walk through a stone wall of an old module. For all we know, the wall could be two dimensional.

Waitaminute ... it is two dimensional!

:elan: BUM BUM BUM!

[silas the monk]

Second edit: It's in the middle of 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)

Hmm I don't think I had paid much attention to the place names before:#
Empire of Blood
Empire of sweat
Empire of tears.
Free city of Doom
Peoples democratic dictatorship
........

[Agi Hammerthief]

A Chekows Gnu? That's a ruminant, right? :smalltongue:
it's a referrence to Pterry's Truckers/Diggers/Wings

[Swordpriest]

You know what the cantrips part makes me think?

Durkon's multiclassed to Wizard. Only Arcane casters get Cantrips. For Clerics and Druids, those are called Orisons.

Alternatively, it could be that "cantrip" was used because it sounds like "catnip" and "orison" doesn't. :smallsigh:

The epileptic trees or whatever they are get a bit tiresome after a while .... :smallannoyed:

[Faramir]

It is difficult for many nowadays to imagine just how BAD the filing could get without computers. Go back before things like the Dewey decimal system and they could be far far worse than that. Go back to prior to spellings being standardized and even alphebetization is impractical.

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021220

[Bongos]

http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021220

Whoa, hey, when did they start coloring those early strips?

[Gift Jeraff]

For picky people, here's a nice solution to the cantrip/orison problem:

According to the Secret Lore of the Crimson Mantle, [the idea for] arcane magic (at least wizardry) came before divine magic, thus it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say orisons are cantrips, but not vice versa.

Or cantrips is a term for all 0th-level spell in OOTSworld and there are no orisons. Or Durkon is aware of his role in a comedy story and thus slipped up on purpose. I don't know. Use your imagination!

[ChowGuy]

A Chekows Gnu? That's a ruminant, right? :smalltongue:
Maybe it's a spell for curing open sores.:smalleek:

[Dilvish]

For picky people, here's a nice solution to the cantrip/orison problem:

According to the Secret Lore of the Crimson Mantle, [the idea for] arcane magic (at least wizardry) came before divine magic, thus it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say orisons are cantrips, but not vice versa.

Or cantrips is a term for all 0th-level spell in OOTSworld and there are no orisons. Or Durkon is aware of his role in a comedy story and thus slipped up on purpose. I don't know. Use your imagination!

Isn't using your imagination against some sort of rule? Or appreciating a joke as a joke?

Maybe saying cantrips is one of Durkin's personality traits. Does TVTropes have an entry for that kind of thing?

dilvish

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe dwarven clerics can never admit sharing something with druids.

[Roderick_BR]

"Och, not again!"
Gotta love when a situation gets so cliche, the characters themselves start getting angry at the fact it happens so much instead of the fact itself.

Also, amazing how both Durkon and Roy missed the paper entry rules of the city, what with Roy always trying to keep track of everything.

[Dvandemon]

If getting papers was that easy, why didn't they just do that in the first place?

They both didn't know and were hurrying to get intel i think

[Hithros]

Hm, I didn't think it would have been that simple to get into the city...but it makes sense, if they want people to come over and do jobs and whatnot.

[sihnfahl]

Hm, I didn't think it would have been that simple to get into the city...but it makes sense, if they want people to come over and do jobs and whatnot.
Of course. It's hardly good for the economy if you scare folks away and actively 'dry up' trade opportunities through harsh travel requirements.

[cc_kizz]

For picky people, here's a nice solution to the cantrip/orison problem:[*snip*]

Or maybe Durkon has just been hanging around Vaarsuvius a lot (V. does arcane magic, so gets cantrips, right?). If V. used that term a lot (and appears to enjoy long speeches), perhaps Durkon just got into the habit of saying "cantrip" instead of "orison".

[Raging Gene Ray]

Or maybe Durkon has just been hanging around Vaarsuvius a lot.

I'm a bigger fan of "even Rich, who has actually written D and D sourcebooks doesn't care enough to remember that obscure term 'orison'." Maybe it's just me and my group and the sourcebooks I read, but I've heard the term cantrip a lot and have never heard "orison" outside of the 3.5 Player's Handbook.

So why not use the same term for all 0 level spells? Cantrip evokes the image of a cheap parlor trick...a can with a magical explodey spring that tickles your brain and perception of reality...nothing powerful.

Orison...sounds a little like "Horizon" and implies a new level of expanding consciousness...a little much for a 0th level spell.

[rewinn]

"...have never heard "orison" outside of the 3.5 Player's Handbook...."

One of the sweetest lines in Shakespeare:

"The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered"

... not terribly applicable to Durkon tho.

[Knaight]

Eh. Hamlet wasn't bad by any means, but it isn't Shakespeare's best work.