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Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 10:59 PM
Bards...hands down nothing trumps the awesomeness that are bards.

herrhauptmann
2010-07-01, 11:02 PM
Cleric. It's a full caster.
What is the best warrior class? Cleric. With the right buffs, he's a better fighter than the fighter, even before you factor in full casting.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:05 PM
the best no-warrior?
warrior is an NPC class, like a fighter, only weaker.

So basically you are asking, what is the best class, period.

That would be wizard.

read the links in this post:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7667912&postcount=2

Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 11:05 PM
Clerics are cool, but bards can almost literally do everything, the only thing i can think of that they can't really do is the roguish stuff like opening locks and disabling devices

Raistlin1040
2010-07-01, 11:05 PM
Best Non-Warrior Class? Any, probably, except Commoner.

If you mean non Melee class, Wizard or Druid.

Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 11:07 PM
Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:09 PM
Clerics are cool, but bards can almost literally do everything, the only thing i can think of that they can't really do is the roguish stuff like opening locks and disabling devices

clerics are better in every way shape and form than bards.
Bards are cool, they are a very respectively tier 3 character. a whole 2 tiers above fighter and 3 tiers above warrior. But they are still well below tier 1 classes.


Tier 1: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer.

Tier 2: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (Without access to Summon Monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner, Divine Mind (before Mind's Eye updates)

Also


Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

magic missile is one of the wizard's weakest spells. a properly played wizard will never cast it. Most can't because they ban evocation. Read some charOp

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-01, 11:09 PM
Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

Check the link given unless you're just Bard Trolling. :smalleek:

Raistlin1040
2010-07-01, 11:10 PM
Um. Wish? Destroy the Multiverse spell? Time Stop? Polymorph? Polymorph Any Object? The Power Word spells? Gate? All of that ontop of their Mailman Blaster Spells that scale as they level up?

Believe me, I'm not fan of Wizards, or even Arcane Casters in general, but it's hard to overrate possibly the best core class, and among the best base classes.

aivanther
2010-07-01, 11:12 PM
Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

Try reading what some of those cool spells can do. Making reality your b**** pretty much means they CAN do whatever all the other classes can do.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:13 PM
look OP, its fine to have opinions, and its fine to be new to things. I once was as blissfully unaware of the intricacies of 3.5.

Luckily there are websites, mostly on brillian gameologists, where people who are aware explain it all, in detail.

I really suggest you follow the links I posted originally, here I will give them out again:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256.0

Raistlin1040
2010-07-01, 11:14 PM
And look, as an alternative, I generally ignore the tier system. There is Nearly Unplayable (NPC classes other than Adept, CW Samurai, Monk) and Playable (Everything else). I'd even argue that a well-thought out Bard is Tier 2 (With DFI and Sublime Chord), so a cut above a lot of those "Tier 3" classes. But the Wizard is just absurd amounts of power, especially once you get enough hit points to survive a hit or two.

Winter87
2010-07-01, 11:14 PM
I wish that best class discussions didn't always come down to who can break the game best. This is called a role playing game after all and steamrolling everything gets boring.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:16 PM
I wish that best class disscusions didn't always come down to who can break the game best. This is called a role playing game after all and steamrolling everything gets boring.

the tier 1 classes don't NEED to break the game to be flat out better.
Do away with every one of the game breaking mechanics, and they are still better.

Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 11:16 PM
I agree and thats why i like bards they are very versatile and can participate at least basically in almost every aspect of the game

Raistlin1040
2010-07-01, 11:16 PM
Well, if it's about Role Playing, the best classes are Paladin, Bard, Druid, and Sorcerer. Those are my favorite classes to play from a backstory-writing and Role Playing standpoint.

Winter87
2010-07-01, 11:17 PM
the tier 1 classes don't NEED to break the game to be flat out better.
Do away with every one of the game breaking mechanics, and they are still better.

Thus completly missing my point. I will agree that 3.5 is unbalanced though.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:17 PM
I agree and thats why i like bards they are very versatile and can participate at least basically in almost every aspect of the game

I quoteth what the tier system has to say a about a bard's tier.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

So yes, you seem to have gotten the bard pegged.


Thus completly missing my point. I will agree that 3.5 is unbalanced though.

um, as I read it your point was "people only say wizards are better because they can break the game".
If not, then what was your point?

Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 11:18 PM
Balance really comes down to whether or not the players want to have a balanced game

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:20 PM
Balance really comes down to whether or not the players want to have a balanced game

Not really. as long as you play with multiple people, who have a different grasp of char op, and who are optimizing for different power levels (ex: I intentionally deoptimize certain classes to not outshine the party) then you will have imbalance... in other words, as long as you are not playing by yourself, but playing with other human beings, then you will have imbalance in an inherently unbalanced game like DnD 3.5

Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 11:20 PM
[QUOTE=taltamir;8830910]I quoteth what the tier system has to say a about a bard's tier./quote]


Tiers is a really lame way to break down the game and write off every class you see as pointless. Everything plays an essential role and you cannot deny the value of any aspect of the game

herrhauptmann
2010-07-01, 11:21 PM
Clerics are cool, but bards can almost literally do everything, the only thing i can think of that they can't really do is the roguish stuff like opening locks and disabling devices

If you like a bard because it's flavorful and fun to play in your group, that's fine. But you gotta be willing to actually read the links people give you.
"Best" here generally means 'most powerful or broken'. That's generally wizard, cleric or druid.
If you really like the 'do anything' of a bard, try a factotum.

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:22 PM
I quoteth what the tier system has to say a about a bard's tier.


Tiers is a really lame way to break down the game and write off every class you see as pointless. Everything plays an essential role and you cannot deny the value of any aspect of the game

tiers does not write classes as pointless, it extremely accurately analyzes their strengths and weeknesses, and allows you to play more fairly by ensuring each person plays a character from the same or near tiers. Actually, the tier system flat out recommends that most people play tier 3, because tier 2 and 1 are too ridiculously overpowered.

From the way you speak, you have clearly not read it, and you continue to refuse to read it while spouting off defamation about it which are clearly wrong. Until you actually bother reading what you are bashing we have nothing more to say to each other.

Optimystik
2010-07-01, 11:22 PM
"Best" for a class in D&D actually means "can overcome the widest variety of obstacles."

Come up with a scenario, any scenario - a straight Wizard can overcome it.

A straight Bard will be stymied at some point, and perhaps several points.

As you add splat books, the Bard's chances of being effective improve - but so do the Wizard's. The Bard can narrow the gap but never close it.

Raistlin1040
2010-07-01, 11:23 PM
I agree and thats why i like bards they are very versatile and can participate at least basically in almost every aspect of the game
A good character should be able to do that. It's not the Bard class, it's anyone who is good at making a well-rounded character. Wizard can open locked doors with Knock, contribute to stealth missions with Invisibility, do well in combat with Fireball and Lightning Bolt, etc. The four main casters in Core (Sorcerer a bit less than others) CAN do anything, especially when you bring in books like the Spell Compendium.

Are you implying players don't want to be balanced? Do the players of the Two-Weapon Fighter Ranger and the Tank Paladin WANT to suck? Should we punish them for not being the best? Of course not. If someone wants to play their character, it's up to the DM to find better abilities for them, make some houserules, to try and even the game a little bit. But just looking at the abse PHB abilities, Wizards and Clerics don't NEED those boosts of DM fiat.

Draz74
2010-07-01, 11:23 PM
Wizards ... other than some cool spells they cant do jack.

Yes, and other than the parts with water, Earth's surface is far too dry to sustain life. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!

herrhauptmann
2010-07-01, 11:26 PM
Tiers is a really lame way to break down the game and write off every class you see as pointless. Everything plays an essential role and you cannot deny the value of any aspect of the game

There are people here who are excellent at char op, yet love to play low tier classes, say the fighter.

Now, are you going to actually have a conversation with us, or ignore any opinion we make that runs counter to your own.

edit:

Yes, and other than the parts with water, Earth's surface is far too dry to sustain life. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!
Bwahahaha....
I'm gonna leave this thing until the morning. Getting ninja'd way too fast, and I'd have better luck talking to wall than flynn here.

second edit: fixed a bad quote.

Flynn Cass
2010-07-01, 11:28 PM
You are all right i am very sorry for my lack of DnD culture, i will attempt to read up on the surrounding culture, before i again attempt to venture into the realms containing such as you. Once again i apologize for my unserious attitude in such a 'serious' situation. I am serious about most of this, mainly the un studied part

taltamir
2010-07-01, 11:30 PM
@herrhauptmann: he posted a broken quote code, as a resulting, quoting it makes it seem as if I said what he said. could you correct your post to make it have the right quotes?

@Flynn Cass: please add [/quote] at the end of what I said. the text between it and the [quote=taltamir] part will then show up as a proper quote, and not cause further misattributions.

mikej
2010-07-01, 11:32 PM
Wizards are so overrated, sure they can cast magic missile and what not but other than some cool spells they cant do jack. Druids are pretty cool though

wait, wait!. I cast magic missile at the darkness

Aside from the following Polymorph, Gate, Time Stop, Forcecage, Solid Fog, Enervation, Wish, Shapechange, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Telekinesis, Disintegrate, Astral Projection, Haste, Polymorph Any Object, Stinking Cloud, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhuastion. Just to name a few "Core" spells.

Not taking in account the casting power. Druids are pretty good melee "non-warrior" class. Heck, you get one as a Cohort at 1st level.

Umael
2010-07-01, 11:33 PM
To be fair, if "best" means which class you like to play the most, then your reply is perfectly valid, as you are only stating an opinion.

Draz74
2010-07-01, 11:39 PM
True. Bards certainly do have a charm about them. (Though I personally don't know if I would ever want to play one in Core-Only.)

The Shadowmind
2010-07-02, 12:10 AM
I'm going to say the artificer is one of the best of the non-warrior classes. They have to go thought less loopholes to get everything, and they have class features that aren't just feats/spells casting. Mundane warriors when compared to most casters and even fake casters(warlock/factotum/binder) are quite weak.

Eldariel
2010-07-02, 12:14 AM
As has been basically covered, when looking at pure ability, spellcasters gaining access to 9th level spells with the widest coverage come out on the top because over the years, the 9 levels of spells have grown to accommodate a spell for every possible situation you can imagine, including being stuck in dead magic zones or similars.

Not only that, but the game contains very little that compares to 9th level spells in terms of power and versatility. A simple Shapechange can, for 10 min/level (~4 hours by level 20; Extend with Metamagic Rod for 8 hours):
- Give you AC in the neighborhood of 70s easily.
- Give you the ability to use 9 attacks resembling spells as rays each round, with HD-based save DC.
- Give you an extra Standard Action each round, or a Full-Round Action.
- Provide you with any movement mode including Etherealness and Astral Projection.
- Give you just about any attack type you can imagine including Breath Weapons, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, various special grapple-techniques, swallowing whole, et cetera.
- Make you immune to most attack forms.

All this with one spell, and you can pick whatever is the most useful each round it's in effect. And that's only a small piece of what this particular spell is capable of.


Or another example, take Time Stop. What does it do? Well:
- You gain 1d4+1 rounds of actions to do with one standard action. This averages to 3.5 turns. This means 7 spells casting one quickened and one standard action spell each round. You can also move pretty much anywhere you want.
- Your opponents are utterly unable to react to your actions during this period. Not only do you get a bunch of actions with one action, but they're all safe. You don't even need to bother with defensive casting or Mage Slayers or whatever.

Now, you are limited in what you can do. You cannot kill all your enemies under Time Stop directly. You can, however:
- Leave under them a set of damaging area effect spells that will all take effect once the Time Stop ends. This can easily result in ~400+ points of damage without trying.
- Use control effects like Walls of Force, Solid Fogs, Forcecages, Resilient Spheres, Walls of Force, Walls of Stone, Dimensional Locks and so on to make certain (group) of enemies completely unable to take actions. This can be combined with some on-going damage effect to have someone die a slow, agonizing death being completely unable to do anything about it.
- Call a bunch of primordial abominations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) and teleport out leaving them to wipe out your opposition.

Any of these is like to solve most encounters you might run into on level 17+. And you did it with one standard action.


Now, someone might fault me for talking about such high levels. And it is true, while 9th level spells are the bee's knees as far as power goes, they come into play late (and thank god for that). So why is spellcasting considered so powerful if the most insane stuff comes only on level 17? Well, 'cause you get insane stuff from level 1!

Quick jaunt through the levels, taking some arcane spells as an example:

1st level
Color Spray: Allows you to stun multiple enemies for long enough to kill the others and Coup de Grace these. Effectively, anyone failing save against this dies. This enables e.g. "killing" multiple Ogres on level 1.
Sleep: Other variant of this; longer range, longer casting time. The casting time sucks but when you need to act at range, it's a fine choice.
Grease: Well, if they fail the save, they're prone. It's a Move Action and AoO to get up. If they don't get up, their speed is effectively 5' and each movement provokes AoO. So they're pretty ****ed. Also, they need a Balance-check to move. Not many things have ranks in Balance. Tarrasque, notably, has about a 30% chance of being utterly unable to move due to a 1st level spell regardless of the save.
Ray of Enfeeblement: Make a warrior fall under the weight of his armor, make those hits not hurt, etc. The selling point is that it doesn't even have a save. Make a ranged touch attack and watch them go down.
Enlarge Person: This spell is a giant beating. Make your beater into large guy, watch him trip all enemies before they get a hit in and turn them into powder. +5 to Trip-checks and doubled reach is a lot.


That's only off the top of my head in Core; there's Nerveskitter [SC], True Strike, Benign Transposition [SC], etc. Lots of awesomeness. And that's 1st level. Lesser Orb of X [SC] is also a respectable damage spell seed and never underestimate the no-save no-sr no-roll Hail of Stone [SC] metamagicked. 200 points of unavoidable damage can be big even on level 20. And since it's 1st level, there's lots of room to add metamagic.

2nd level comes with Web (people stuck regardless of save with insane checks needed to move), Glitterdust (lolblinduall + reveals invisibles; also, Will-save but not mind affecting - hits Undead!), Pyrotechnics (lolblinduall with a secondary mode), Fog Cloud (can easily disable a group of enemies), Alter Self (+6 Natural Armor in Trogdolyte form, Burrow/Flight modes, etc. let alone if you're an Outsider and can become e.g. Ravid for +15 Natural Armor), Invisibility (way too obvious), Mirror Image (loltrytohitme), Rope Trick (I'm in ur dungeon prepping mah spellz), etc. Ray of Stupidity [SC] one-shots any animals with no save, Combust is a 10d8 base damage spell with no save or attack roll, Baleful Transposition [SC] is like Benign except can be used on opponents too, etc.

3rd has Haste (one of the best damage spells in the game), Slow (again, will-save but not mind-affecting; people affected by it are pretty screwed as they can't move and do stuff nor full attack at all or such), Stinking Cloud (area-effect everyone-is-disabled-unless-Fort), Greater Magic Weapon (making weapon enhancements obsolete since '98), Phantom Steed (240' fly-speed?), Dispel Magic (Seeing all this crap magic does? Your #1 tool against it), Charm Monster (need someone's help? Well, he's willing) etc. Anticipate Teleport [SC] is huge in shaping the face of the game and the only real counter to the game's strongest movement mode.

4th gets Polymorph, Enervation, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Resilient Sphere, etc. This level is mental. Completely bonkers boosts, lots of "no save you're pretty ****ed" effects, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image [PHBII], Assay Spell Resistance [SC] (aka "Spell Resistance b-gone"), Celerity [PHBII] (aka. "I take my turn whenever the hell I want to and am immune to Daze thanks to Quick Recovery [LoM] or Favor of the Martyr [SC] or whatever), etc.

5th has Teleport (hai, let's rewrait this campaign!), Scrying (hai BBEG, I'm in ur house lookin' at you shower! Uhh, teleport in, kill u, bye-bye), Dominate Person (lolsocialsituations), Overland Flight (All day! Take before Phantom Steed kicks off), Feeblemind (well, as you see, casters are fairly good; screw 'em with this), Baleful Polymorph (effectively kills someone, except it doesn't really matter if they're immortal 'cause they're no longer immortal as Toads), Lesser Planar Binding (ok, ok, this spell is totally unfair but I gotta mention it anyways; bind a Nightmare and get Etherealness and Astral Projection on level 9...or just bind a Succubus and have fun), Greater Blink [SC] (yeah, you're almost impossible to hit, can be on either plane at will, go through walls, etc.) and so on. You can rewrite campaigns by now. Contact Other Plane means you can know whatever the hell you want to know.

6th...Contingency (immortality), Disintegrate (rebuild dungeons! Or kill undead), Greater Dispel, Acid Fog, True Seeing, Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability [SC], Streamers [ShS], etc. etc. etc. Oh yeah, and Planar Binding; get a Glabrezu tank on level 11!

7th comes with Simulacrum (make some spell-like user monsters or copies of creatures with casting or whatever; it's really academic at this point), Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying, Greater Arcane Sight, Reverse Gravity, Bite of the Werebear [SC] (aka. ultimate non-shapechanging buff), Stun Ray (stuns someone for 1d4+1 rounds, no save obv), whatever the hell, I don't even care anymore.

8th has Polymorph Any Object which can permanently turn you into just about anything, and qualify for Beholder Mage and I don't even wanna think about it. And then it has Greater Planar Binding which allows you to bind Pit Fiend on level 15. And Moment of Prescience which ensures you'll never fail the Charisma-check no matter what kind of an offer you make. Maze is a save-or-lose without the save, Irresistible Dance too, Avascular Mass [SC] is absolutely hilarious, Spell Engine [SC] to repick your spells, etc.


And now we're at 9th level spells. So the reason full casters rock is because the higher you get, the more ridiculous spells you get. And the faster you get higher level spells, the stronger you are. Not only that, but getting access to a wide variety of them and being able to prepare what you need each day is very key. And having the tools to figure out what you need also helps.

Basically, Bard has other nice abilities, but they simply pale in comparison to what full spellcasting does. Nice social skills, but full casters can do just fine socially and more importantly, have all those insane, game-changing abilities. And from level 1, casters have the most "firepower" in that one Standard Action from a Wizard can knock out multiple enemies. Bard isn't bad; it's just that Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Archivist/Artificer/StP Erudite are better (and Sorcerer et co. too, though Sublime Chord Bard is securely Tier 2). It doesn't hurt that Druid and Cleric double as one-two warriors on top of their spellcasting. And all of them have huge boosts enhancing the party's capabilities and survivability greatly, just like a Bard except more-so.

cupkeyk
2010-07-02, 12:39 AM
Didn't the It's-a-Trap alarm sound for anyone else when they read the OP?

PapaNachos
2010-07-02, 02:04 AM
Didn't the It's-a-Trap alarm sound for anyone else when they read the OP?

Yeah, the thing that first tipped me off was "What is the best non-warrior class?" being the title implying that the best class is a fighter-type class.

herrhauptmann
2010-07-02, 04:05 PM
Yeah, the thing that first tipped me off was "What is the best non-warrior class?" being the title implying that the best class is a fighter-type class.

Didn't think it was so much a trap, as a new poster in the forums. Something about 'join date, july 2010' might've had an effect too.
But I think it's a moot point, we've probably scared him off.

Zovc
2010-07-02, 04:33 PM
Didn't think it was so much a trap, as a new poster in the forums. Something about 'join date, july 2010' might've had an effect too.
But I think it's a moot point, we've probably scared him off.

Right, someone about to make a troll post wouldn't make a new account or anything. To be honest, I'm probably the only troll who doesn't have a recent join date. XP

You're right, maybe OP was genuinely green, but I think it was a troll post. I'm just convinced that someone who actually cares about learning would offer more than a sentence of questioning. Also, there wasn't very much 'question' around the assertions of 'Warriors' and/or Bards being the best classes in the game.

Boci
2010-07-02, 04:44 PM
You are all right i am very sorry for my lack of DnD culture, i will attempt to read up on the surrounding culture, before i again attempt to venture into the realms containing such as you. Once again i apologize for my unserious attitude in such a 'serious' situation. I am serious about most of this, mainly the un studied part

Its not about being serious, its about not writing off something you know nothing about on the grounds that "its sucks" (the Twilight movies an acknowledged exeption) and not making absolute claims that are questionable at best without a shred of evidence to back it up.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-02, 04:48 PM
*munches popcorn*

Zovc
2010-07-02, 04:57 PM
Its not about being serious, its about not writing off something you know nothing about on the grounds that "its sucks" (the Twilight movies an acknowledged exeption) and not making absolute claims that are questionable at best without a shred of evidence to back it up.

That post in particular is what convinced me that OP is a troll. That post wasn't constructive, and neither was yours, really. The first time I read your post, I couldn't even tell what you were getting at.

Boci
2010-07-02, 05:01 PM
That post in particular is what convinced me that OP is a troll. That post wasn't constructive, and neither was yours, really.

I said that on the off chance the OP wasn't a troll but just wasn't used to game forumes and the expected posting content and styles for such threads.


The first time I read your post, I couldn't even tell what you were getting at.

Meh, I thought I was being pretty clear.

Dr.Epic
2010-07-02, 05:03 PM
Cleric. It's a full caster.
What is the best warrior class? Cleric. With the right buffs, he's a better fighter than the fighter, even before you factor in full casting.

Druid. It's like cleric except you get to turn into animals and have a sidekick.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-02, 05:10 PM
And have better PrC options. Planar Shepherd FTW!

Rothen
2010-07-02, 05:13 PM
Am I the only person who thinks that you guys all got baited into another Tier discussion by the OP?

A professional job of trolling if I ever saw one...

Edit: Reading earlier posts, apparently I wasn't.

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-02, 05:40 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Locked for review. If you were trolling, or, if you called another poster a troll, you should review the Forum Rules.