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Eleven
2010-07-01, 11:35 PM
Lads and Ladies,
A friend of mine wants to play a militant druid who relies on combat to destroy nature's foes. I just picked up Tome of Battle, and realized a pretty simple solution would be to replace the Druid's spellcasting with the ability to use maneuvers. Do you think this is alright balance-wise? Would it weaken or strengthen the charaacter? Should we use Swordsage or Warblade or something completely different?

Thanks

PId6
2010-07-01, 11:53 PM
It would severely weaken the class since in 3.5, spellcasting is king, but that just balances druid in line with most other classes. I'd suggest giving it warblade progression and recovery, with Iron Heart, Tiger claw, Setting Sun, and Diamond Mind.

Morph Bark
2010-07-02, 04:00 AM
with Iron Heart, Tiger claw, Setting Sun, and Diamond Mind.

I get Tiger Claw and Setting Sun, but Iron Heart and Diamond Mind? The Druid seems more of a type for Desert Wind and maybe Devoted Spirit. Stone Dragon obviously too.

PId6
2010-07-02, 05:32 AM
I get Tiger Claw and Setting Sun, but Iron Heart and Diamond Mind? The Druid seems more of a type for Desert Wind and maybe Devoted Spirit. Stone Dragon obviously too.
Diamond Mind is for more of the "wise sage" type of druid. They are Wis-based, after all, and Diamond Mind matches that wise meditating elder persona fairly well.

Iron Heart is more of a stretch, but its focus on inner strength and ferocity can fit in with savage warrior druids. Desert Wind and Stone Dragon probably work better though.

Saph
2010-07-02, 05:36 AM
Yeah, Iron Heart is more the sword mastery form.

I'd say Tiger Claw, Stone Dragon, Desert Wind, and Diamond Mind. Tiger Claw is obvious. Stone Dragon and Desert Wind fit too, since fire attacks and stone manipulation are a big thing for druids. Diamond Mind doesn't fit so well, but it'd do. That's four schools - should be enough. (Crusaders get three, Warblades get four, Swordsages get six, so four sounds like a good number.)

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-02, 05:42 AM
I'll echo the idea that this makes the Druid less powerful and that doing so isn't a bad thing. I think Devoted Spirit and Setting Sun make more sense than Diamond Mind or Iron Heart.

PId6
2010-07-02, 05:43 AM
Warblades get four
They get five, actually. Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven.

Saph
2010-07-02, 05:51 AM
They get five, actually. Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven.

Good catch. I'd say four disciplines sounds about right, then.

paddyfool
2010-07-02, 06:01 AM
At low levels (prior to when he would get 3rd level spells or so), this character will be uber; significantly more dangerous in combat than a normal druid, and far from useless out of it. But it would even out at mid-levels, and be weaker at high levels. Overall... high Tier 3.

A lower-powered (low Tier 3) alternative might be to go Wildshape Ranger. A slightly higher-powered alternative (Tier 2ish) would be Wildshape Mystic Ranger. A Tier 1 alternative (albeit lower Tier 1 than standard Druid, particularly at low levels) would be the Druidic Avenger.

Fruchtkracher
2010-07-02, 01:06 PM
wait a minute - what about the use during wildshape? would that need a feat as well or not be possible at all?

i mean, imagine a bear that just throws you severel dozens of feet away, or a rabit that leaves a burning trail wherever it runs Oo

Ranos
2010-07-02, 01:11 PM
wait a minute - what about the use during wildshape? would that need a feat as well or not be possible at all?

i mean, imagine a bear that just throws you severel dozens of feet away, or a rabit that leaves a burning trail wherever it runs Oo
It'd lose out. Animals typically have a lot of natural attacks, so their strength comes mostly from their full attack routine. A maneuver using druid in wild shape wouldn't be that much more powerful.

kjones
2010-07-02, 01:13 PM
It'd lose out. Animals typically have a lot of natural attacks, so their strength comes mostly from their full attack routine. A maneuver using druid in wild shape wouldn't be that much more powerful.

Not all maneuvers are standard actions - boosts and counters, naturally.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-02, 01:17 PM
It'd lose out. Animals typically have a lot of natural attacks, so their strength comes mostly from their full attack routine. A maneuver using druid in wild shape wouldn't be that much more powerful.

Well there are some boost that would be extremely nasty when used by an animal with many natural attacks.

The desert wind boost that adds xd6+IL fire damage is quite nasty when you have three or more natural attacks, or the _____ moongoose manoubers,m which doubles the numbeer of attacks in the routine

And as a matter of fact IIRC Tiger Claw has as favored weapon claws, so you have an argument for using the moongose manoubers with natural attacks

Ranos
2010-07-02, 01:20 PM
True. Doesn't come close to what a buffed, wildshaped druid can dish out though.

Then again...Some of those ARE pretty good. Well, I'm not one to complain when melee gets nice things.

Gametime
2010-07-02, 01:28 PM
Depending on whether you envision this druid as the bear-beatdown type or the reclusive natural sage type, there are also ways to trade away your animal companion and wild shape for various martial abilities in Unearthed Arcana; generally, you gain some combination of rage, fast movement, wisdom-to-AC, and favored enemy.

Theodoxus
2010-07-02, 01:36 PM
So you take all three of these ACFs and get a raging, fast moving, unarmored, maneuver using monk that calls himself a druid that has no companion, spells or wild shape... yeah, thats... um...

A raging Swordsage, is all I got. Yup. Oh, and crappier hit points.

Why do you want that again?

Susano-wo
2010-07-02, 01:46 PM
Nasty Wildshape form+Dancing/Raging Mongoose+extra damage stance+Full Attack on Charge maneuver=me being sick...:smallfrown:

Gametime
2010-07-02, 01:47 PM
So you take all three of these ACFs and get a raging, fast moving, unarmored, maneuver using monk that calls himself a druid that has no companion, spells or wild shape... yeah, thats... um...

A raging Swordsage, is all I got. Yup. Oh, and crappier hit points.

Why do you want that again?

Why would you have less hit points? Druids and swordsages both have a d8 hit die.

Also, a raging, fast moving, favored enemy having swordsage is hardly terrible. Rage is a very good ability.

Also, you can take one or the other of the ACFs to give up Wild Shape (for fast movement, favored enemy, and wisdom-to-AC), or animal companion (for rage and barbarian fast movement). You don't have to take both - I was just offering options.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-02, 01:47 PM
So you take all three of these ACFs and get a raging, fast moving, unarmored, maneuver using monk that calls himself a druid that has no companion, spells or wild shape... yeah, thats... um...

A raging Swordsage, is all I got. Yup. Oh, and crappier hit points.

Why do you want that again?

Don't druid and swordsage have the same HD d8 (also rage increases HP)

Theodoxus
2010-07-02, 02:00 PM
Sorry - didn't explain. Yes, they'd have the same hit die at d8, however, the wildshape druid will concentrate on Wis, then Con. This amalgum of 'why don't I just go Swordsage in the first place' will also need to concentrate on str and dex - at least dex. Thereby cutting into both Wis and Con - cuz really, at that point, you're only fueling AC with Wis anyway... so I guess you could boost Con still, but it's still quite MAD vs a generic druid, and I don't see where, optimally speaking, that's viable.

However, as a character concept, I'd be the last to poo-poo it, I made an avenging hunter druid once and Loved It! But I still had spell boosts... mostly for self buffs, but being able to SNA in replacement of my companion was helpful too.

With only maneuvers... idk, bleh.

Wild shaping with maneuvers though - awesomesweetsauce of DOOM!

molten_dragon
2010-07-02, 02:00 PM
Nasty Wildshape form+Dancing/Raging Mongoose+extra damage stance+Full Attack on Charge maneuver=me being sick...:smallfrown:

And the sad part is it's still not as good as having spells.

Theodoxus
2010-07-02, 02:06 PM
Well, to steal from WoW (I know)... If he's a balance druid, then yes, spells would be better - the maneuvers don't compare to all the utility and blastiness that spells would allow. But for a feral druid, I don't think the self buffs (thorns, brambles, shillelagh, etc) will be as good as stances/boosts and strikes would be, in an ongoing battle, where you can recover spent maneuvers easily. One advantage of giving the Warblade recovering mechanism over the basic SS one.

Math_Mage
2010-07-02, 02:09 PM
A few variants plus spell selection and you have a druid with a club/staff. Trades wildshaping and the animal companion. Plays something like a cleric; the buffs aren't as good without DMM: Persist, and there's no turning, but you can have slots left over for battlefield control when you're off the front lines.

Akal Saris
2010-07-02, 02:10 PM
I'd suggest giving Devoted Spirit as well, if you want the druid to be able to heal at all.

Gametime
2010-07-02, 05:00 PM
Sorry - didn't explain. Yes, they'd have the same hit die at d8, however, the wildshape druid will concentrate on Wis, then Con. This amalgum of 'why don't I just go Swordsage in the first place' will also need to concentrate on str and dex - at least dex. Thereby cutting into both Wis and Con - cuz really, at that point, you're only fueling AC with Wis anyway... so I guess you could boost Con still, but it's still quite MAD vs a generic druid, and I don't see where, optimally speaking, that's viable.


...Why would the druid focus on wisdom first when he's no longer a spellcaster? This hypothetical martial druid gains nothing from wisdom except AC and the occasional higher DC on his maneuvers. He's no more (or less) MAD than a swordsage, but thanks to rage he has the built-in ability to boost two of his more important ability scores frequently.