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Kaiser Omnik
2010-07-02, 12:05 AM
Calling all DMs with experience of paragon and epic campaigns in D&D 4th edition. How do they feel in play? How do the powers gained in the paragon stage and the epic stage change the gameplay? Are there any traps or problems to watch for when DMing such campaigns? What about players; can the number of options be overwhelming for less experienced players?

cupkeyk
2010-07-02, 12:36 AM
Calling all DMs with experience of paragon and epic campaigns in D&D 4th edition.
We currently play level 12

How do they feel in play?
The same. In fact, it sometimes feels unglamourous because by level 12, a 3.5 wizard can pretty much pwn but not in 4.0.

How do the powers gained in the paragon stage and the epic stage change the gameplay?
Not very. The monsters scale quite well. Reflavor monsters of the same level if the monsters you want don't have higher level versions instead of leveling up monsters. The latter makes for very easy encounters

Are there any traps or problems to watch for when DMing such campaigns?
Super combos become viable at these tiers, like the eladrin wizard / phiarlan phantasmist /winter sovereign orbizard; lasting frost cheese but they've been mitigated by WOTC's vigilant erratas.

What about players; can the number of options be overwhelming for less experienced players?
It's the same, after the fourth round they will be back to using at-wills. The onl;y build that may be overwhelming will be tome-izard with improved tome of readiness and refocus and prophetic preparation

NecroRebel
2010-07-02, 01:09 AM
I've played games in both paragon and epic and DMed epic, and my opinion on things is this:

The feel of games for players is much the same across the board. You can do some cooler stuff at higher levels, and, as cupkeyk mentioned, there are some neat combos that become available, particularly the first half of paragon tier, and even more particularly when you get the utility power and third feature from your paragon path, both of which tend to open a lot of options that weren't present before. Level 21 is another major power break, due to getting the first epic destiny feature(s) and access to epic feats, which is where most of the really good "enabler" feats are that let you do more cool stuff.

For DMs, though, the game is much, much more of a pain to design encounters for, but more fun to play them, too. Monsters get a lot more options as level increases; where at level 1-5, enemies typically have a single at-will attack and maybe an always-on feature or encounter power, at paragon and epic tiers pretty much everything has at least an encounter power, often a recharge power, and sometimes multiple movement modes (teleport speeds add lots of tactical considerations!) The problem is that once you're above level 6 or so, you've got the whole range of level-5 to level+5 monsters to choose from for making "fair" encounters if you want wimpy stuff or really strong stuff, and with leveling up or down monsters that can cover most of the Monster Manuals by level 11. The fact that players have a lot more options to make non-combat encounters trivial, or at least easy, means that you've got to spend more effort taking those into account, too.

The powers gained at higher levels complicate things, as described above, but the unified mechanics of 4E means that it isn't as bad as it might be. It just takes more thought on everyone's part. Speaking from experience, though... My RL group from a few years back had one player who was always indecisive about every action he had, and pretty much never considered what he might want to do before it was his turn. When we played 4E at level 1, he took 5 minutes for each of his turns. When we bumped up to level 11, it took him more like 15 to look through all of his abilities and see what he could do. While he is an extreme case IME, note that people need to be thinking tactics all the time if they're going to play higher-level games.

Traps or problems... Not really, beyond things that are just a bit too good for comfort. The power floor in 4E is much closer to the average power level than it was in 3.x, as is the power ceiling. The weakest character you can make will probably still be effective, no matter what.

The options available at level 1 can be overwhelming for inexperienced players. Higher tiers exacerbate the issue, but not terribly so. Learn by doing.

Kaun
2010-07-02, 01:18 AM
Calling all DMs with experience of paragon and epic campaigns in D&D 4th edition. How do they feel in play? How do the powers gained in the paragon stage and the epic stage change the gameplay? Are there any traps or problems to watch for when DMing such campaigns? What about players; can the number of options be overwhelming for less experienced players?

I cant help with epic but i have a decent amount of exp DMing Paragon.

I think 4e becomes slower and more borring after Heroic tear. Well built PCs will tear through an even matched encounter (by the book) like it wasn't even there.

You have to find ways of stoping you players from extended resting between fights to really make the game a challenge.

I all so find that the pre made monsters dont seem to do much more damage in Paragon teir they just have high def and HP. This slows the game down a lot and i find it better to cut monsters HP in half and double their damage, it seems to make for a much more fun and fast paced game.

The extra class powers slot in with out to much drama but if you are dealing with players who havn't played much 4e it might be over whelming.

Personally i think skipping heroic teir is a shame as it seems to be much more fun then later on.

Thajocoth
2010-07-02, 01:23 AM
In Heroic Tier, you do most of your stuff on your turn. In Epic Tier, you do a lot on everyone else's turns. Paragon Tier bridges that. I'm level 22 right now. This campaign started at 11, like, 2 years ago. There's also a lot more focus on status effects. Will seems to be targeted more often. Many fights now seem to have some way of dominating PCs, but we've got ways of dominating the enemies too, and huge bonuses to save.

The DM has to give us stuff that's beyond what the DMG suggests... As we plow through anything close to our level too easily.

We've got a Fighter, who's got more self healing than he could ever need, stances that deal damage to adjacent enemies on their turns, and powers that pull enemies to be close to him, A Ranger who seems to be able to shove a lot of bolts into his crossbow at once, who doesn't have too much trouble hitting enemies 5 levels above him while blinded, and who's attacks tend to take off about 3/4 of an elite's health (I think enemies average 5 levels above us.), A Warlord who gives most of his attacks to the Ranger, and gives us all a lot of bonuses, turning many misses into hits, granting saves whenever he heals, ect..., A Psion who Dominates enemies, and next level will trade out an At-Will power that causes an enemy to move to and attack another enemy for an At-Will power that, with an augmentation, can Dominate enemies, and me, a Large sized Swarm Druid that gives allies +2 to all saves, resists a ton of damage, keeps enemies from escaping, and is basically the party's off-tank. (Pic of Druid is in my avatar.) Half of us have a fly speed, the others can occasionally fly and take no damage on a fall.

Is any of what I'm saying helpful to you?

I'm debating retiring my Druid, actually. He's got all sorts of special cases to watch for. Like, I need to constantly remind my DM that enemies don't get any attack bonus for combat advantage on him... And he's got a trait that conflicts with working together with the Psion. (Extremely anti-madness (anti-Far Realm, mostly). Psion worships goddess of madness (who has a hand in the Far Realm.)) If I retire him, I'll play Grizz, the Bugbear Barbearian.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Grizz, level 30
Bugbear, Barbarian, Kensei, Eternal Defender
Build: Whirling Barbarian
Feral Might: Whirling Slayer
Kensei Focus: Kensei Focus Rapier
Background: Wandering Duelist (Wandering Duelist Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 30, Con 13, Dex 24, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 11, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.


AC: 48 Fort: 54 Reflex: 52 Will: 43
HP: 237 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 59

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +26, Endurance +20, Athletics +29, Intimidate +26

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +15, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Dungeoneering +16, Heal +16, History +15, Insight +16, Nature +16, Perception +16, Religion +15, Stealth +23, Streetwise +16, Thievery +21

FEATS
Level 1: Cyclone Warrior
Level 2: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 4: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 6: Encouraging Shield
Level 8: Stout Shield
Level 10: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 11: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 12: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 14: Nimble Blade (retrained to Light Blade Mastery at Level 23)
Level 16: Toughness
Level 18: Durable (retrained to Robust Defenses at Level 22)
Level 20: Two-Weapon Threat (retrained to Epic Will at Level 21)
Level 21: Epic Fortitude
Level 22: Epic Reflexes
Level 24: Mobile Warrior
Level 26: Swift Slayer
Level 28: Long Step
Level 30: Primal Resurgence
Feat User Choice: Nimble Blade

POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Howl of Fury
Barbarian at-will 1: Whirling Rend
Barbarian encounter 1: Whirling Frenzy
Barbarian daily 1: Macetail's Rage
Barbarian utility 2: Savage Growl
Barbarian encounter 3: Whirling Step
Barbarian daily 5: Tiger's Claw Rage
Barbarian utility 6: Try the Stick
Barbarian encounter 7: Slash and Slash Again
Barbarian daily 9: Black Dragon Rage
Barbarian utility 10: Barbaric Instinct
Barbarian encounter 13: Rolling Boulder (replaces Whirling Frenzy)
Barbarian daily 15: Iron Hammer Rage (replaces Macetail's Rage)
Barbarian utility 16: Spur the Cycle
Barbarian encounter 17: Whirling Skirmish (replaces Whirling Step)
Barbarian daily 19: Desert Wind Rage (replaces Tiger's Claw Rage)
Barbarian utility 22: Unexpected Clarity
Barbarian encounter 23: Berserker's Flurry (replaces Slash and Slash Again)
Barbarian daily 25: Blue Dragon Rage (replaces Black Dragon Rage)
Barbarian encounter 27: Frenzied Scramble (replaces Rolling Boulder)
Barbarian daily 29: Rage of Retribution (replaces Iron Hammer Rage)

ITEMS
Magic Elderhide Armor +6, Circlet of Indomitability (epic tier), Brooch of Vitality +6, Diamond Cincture (epic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Nullifying Ring (epic tier), Ring of Flight (paragon tier), Handy Haversack (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Crowbar, Footpads, Camouflaged Clothing, Khyber Shard of Life Drinking (epic tier), Withering Rapier (Huge) +6, Distance Dagger (Huge) +1, Rhythm Blade Rapier (Huge) +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Eorran
2010-07-02, 01:38 AM
Compared to earlier editions, there's very little mechanical differences between Heroic and Epic play. My first attempt at an Epic campaign failed for that reason - it didn't feel epic at all.

However, if the DM puts the right backstory in, it can feel pretty awesome. Our current campaign involves the PCs travelling across the multiverse to get ritual components needed to create a new world, because their world is beginnning to disintegrate. So far, we've been to Sigil, the Astral Sea, and the Feywild, and the next step will be the Elemental Chaos.

Our small group (3) has no problem handling some pretty tough encounters as long as they don't have to deal with too many in a row.

The biggest difference happens in ritual magic - epic rituals allow a lot more freedom than before.

EDIT: I'll second lowering HP and defenses and increasing damage, especially from MM1 monsters, elites, and solos. I also tend to declare the fight over and PC's the winner if the fight's a foregone conclusion.

Crow
2010-07-02, 02:01 AM
I think Heroic tier is where this game shines. Paragon and Epic just feel like more of the same, where really the only difference is that combat takes longer.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-02, 03:52 AM
I find that by early paragon, you get a lot of "enabler" feats (and paragon paths) that set up several combos. This is a huge power bump for PCs, and the net result is that the CR system breaks down, and equal-leveled combats become very easy. In home campaigns, a good DM can compensate by using more and/or higher-level monsters, but in RPGA this is a problem.

Then, about halfway past paragon, I find the game runs out of steam: you should have most of the good non-epic feats already by then, and most of the powers you can pick are simply variations of things you could already do. The game doesn't really feel different to players than it feels at heroic tier.

Ironically, this means that the "sweet spot" for 4E is about level 5-10, just like it was for 3E.

Angelmaker
2010-07-02, 05:10 AM
I all so find that the pre made monsters dont seem to do much more damage in Paragon teir they just have high def and HP. This slows the game down a lot and i find it better to cut monsters HP in half and double their damage, it seems to make for a much more fun and fast paced game.

But you need to be very careful doing this. When you double the damage, you can take down even defender types within a single round of combat, when initiative letīs your monsters go all at the same time. But this is usually something I do too. Reduce their HP by somewhat and add some damage here, and there. Really puts my group leaders under pressure and keeps combat length manageable. :smallamused:

Regarding combat length: I use paizos pathfinder initiative tracker and several other tools to manage stuff like saving throws and hit points efficiently. It helpīs only taking me 2 seconds to note something down ( for example "slowed, save ends" I write down as "slow se" - "slowed until und of next turn of the invoker" becomes "slow eot invoker" or i simply lay down one of my paper marks ) while saying "check the tracker for whoīs next. Start to make your move."

Sometimes itīs a bit of a hassle when the slowest player insists on finishing his turn, but most of the time the next players at least starts to think what action he might want to take. Cuts down the time needed massively.

Knowing your monsters ( at least the basics ) helps as well. Writing down their defenses instead of looking them up every time from the monsters manual helps. Rolling damage the same moment when you roll for to hit helps also, I will try to use that next time more often.

All in all i find thereīs not much change between heroic and paragon when it comes to combat, at least in game wise. Before the encounter though you have to prepare a little more, this goes for players as well as the GM.

Master_Rahl22
2010-07-02, 12:33 PM
I like Paragon tier, since by the end of it you have all of the powers you're going to have minus a few Utilities, since the rest are just swapping, and Paragon Paths are great for adding onto a character's personality or story. Epic tier is fun because you start getting enough gold to have something in every item slot and everybody will have at least one really nifty combo of powers, feats, and items that lets them feel Epic.

For my current level 25 Druid focusing on Beast Form, that combo is various feats and items that let me shift 2 squares as a move action and my charge gives me +1 to attack (over the normal +1), +2 to speed, +3 to AC, and 3d6+3 extra damage, as well as ignoring Opportunity Attacks from moving while charging. This means I can charge something, even the same enemy, every turn if I want to and never worry about OAs that might stop me. If I slide an enemy adjacent to me, I gain CA on them, and I deal an extra 1d10 damage when I have CA. This means that with nothing but Savage Rend and a wall, I can prevent anything without a teleport or a 3+ square shift from ever moving away from me.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-02, 12:47 PM
ignoring Opportunity Attacks from moving while charging.

There is a very cheap heroic item that lets you do that at low level, too.

Thajocoth
2010-07-02, 01:54 PM
There is a very cheap heroic item that lets you do that at low level, too.

Badge of the Berserker. Neck slot. I think the +1 is level 2. At most, level 3.

valadil
2010-07-02, 02:04 PM
I haven't gotten to paragon yet in my own game. I was thinking of rushing to it (1 level per session) to cater to a few players who are bored of heroic (they played way too much LFR before any paragon mods got published). This thread is making me rethink that idea.

Crow
2010-07-02, 05:53 PM
I haven't gotten to paragon yet in my own game. I was thinking of rushing to it (1 level per session) to cater to a few players who are bored of heroic (they played way too much LFR before any paragon mods got published). This thread is making me rethink that idea.

If your players are getting bored of Heroic, chances are they will become quickly bored of Paragon as well.

A better solution may be to up the stakes of your campaign, no matter the tier. Find out from the players if it is the system, or rather the scope of their adventures that are making them bored.