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View Full Version : Making a Tome of Battle Paladin



Raistlin1040
2010-07-02, 12:39 AM
So, one of my players is playing a Paladin. She's new and has exactly one session under her belt. I explained to her all the Core Options first, and so she's playing an Elven Paladin. However, a day after our initial session, I remembered Tome of Battle, and facepalmed as I realized that I'd neglected to tell her. I explained the concept, and she liked it, but said she wanted to keep her Paladin style-wise. My familiarity with Tome of Battle is somewhat...weak, I suppose. I own the book, and I've read it once or twice, but I'm not an expert at all. I assume that Crusader, by virtue of the name, is something to look at, but other than that I'm at a loss for how to rebuild her character.

Eldariel
2010-07-02, 12:44 AM
Straight Crusader is a superb Paladin. If he wants the spellcasting angle, multiclass into Cleric and head into Ruby Knight Vindicator; reflavor it as necessary. But really, a straight Crusader should do everything you want out of a Pally. Take Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) if you want a Mount.

SurlySeraph
2010-07-02, 01:04 AM
There's also this (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update), which would probably be simpler for a new player since the Crusader's recovery mechanic can be hard to keep track of.

Shyftir
2010-07-02, 01:05 AM
Seconded!
But... new players might struggle with some of the complexities of the Crusader.

A suggestion: Replace the spellcasting component of Paladin with a Limited Martial Component. (Devoted Spirit, White Raven, Stone Dragon.)

When the paladin would start getting spells, this "Martial Paladin" would gain his first stance and say three maneuvers known one readied. You could extrapolate from there. You won't really break Paladin, compared to a caster unless you go crazy with it.

The delayed damage pool and granted maneuver system, while coo,l takes some getting used to. (I recently played a Ruby Knight Vindicator; great character for an experienced player but a real nightmare for a newbie.)

mabriss lethe
2010-07-02, 01:06 AM
Crusader is an amazing class, but it is a *lot* to keep track of for a new player since you gain variable bonuses based on how much damage is in your overflow and then the random maneuver system is kind of irritating at times.

I'd suggest keeping the paladin roughly as-is and then reveal that her holy symbol "just happens to be" a devoted spirit amulet.

Alternately(or additionally), have her take Martial Study as one of her feats, and later martial stance.

Raistlin1040
2010-07-02, 01:09 AM
Damn, see this is why I'm not good with ToB. I forgot about the ridiculous manuever recovery.

mabriss lethe
2010-07-02, 01:12 AM
what level is the character?

Raistlin1040
2010-07-02, 01:13 AM
They are 12th level.

Shyftir
2010-07-02, 01:19 AM
Yeah, just having your paladin spend their feats on martial study & martial stance would probably be the easiest way to work it in. Most of the time a retinue of Martial Feats will benefit a Paladin more than other feats anyway.
At least with a new player.

Optimator
2010-07-02, 02:16 AM
The Crusader is perfect for emulating a Paladin, to be sure, but the Warblade would be much easier to play for a beginner. A pious, rightious Warblade.

If she's up for playing hardball though, go into the Ruby Knight Windicator prestige class using the Paladin as the Divine spellcasting side and taking the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion to make almost all of your Paladin spells swift-action castings. Couple that with the ability to call down extra swift actions... Now that's a Tome of Battle Paladin.

Access to the Spell Compendium is quite necessary for that build to shine though. BoED doesn't hurt neither.

Raistlin1040
2010-07-02, 02:58 AM
That sounds a bit...well I'm trying to keep them away from too much complexity, until they've all got a bit more experience. At this point, I'll probably end up making her a religious Warblade. So, from there, ideas on manuevers and stances befitting such a persona?

mabriss lethe
2010-07-02, 03:26 AM
You've got a few options for a religious warblade.

1. Out of the box. No modifications, just make the paladin aspect all fluff with no crunch.

2. Porting more Paladin themed maneuvers via feats and objects. This is the exact same advice I gave you about running her as a straight paladin, just better, since you'd be using the warblade's maneuver recovery mechanics.

3. Replacement. Swap out Ironheart discipline for Devoted Spirit on the list of available disciplines for the class. A straight fighting class with access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, and White Raven would be a pretty classy paladin.

-I'm still going to reiterate what I said before: I think just building a paladin with a few maneuvers via feat/item might be the best way to go. Your player is new to the game. In this case, less is more. Don't overwhelm the player with options. One or two neat maneuvers to keep track of. one or two spells, a handful of simple, straightforward magic items and maybe one neat, level appropriate gadget that does something fun and different. Don't worry with feats like Power Attack (yes, it's good, but don't give a new player something that requires additional round-by-round math, let the maneuvers handle the extra damage.)

Zovc
2010-07-02, 03:42 AM
Warblade is probably good. Recovering maneuvers is as easy as making a regular melee attack, or just taking a standard action.

If you want, you could always give her a level of Cleric (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0) to reinforce the religious angle. (Devotion Feats could do a good job of letting her utilize Turn Undead without having to worry about Charisma.)

However, preparing cleric spells can be overwhelming, so perhaps you should have her use the spontaneous variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)?

Keep in mind that, while Cleric is a Medium BAB class, it only loses one point of BAB from a Fighter until level 5. Cleric 4 can cast 2nd level spells with +3 BAB.

As a matter of fact, it's probably easier to play a well-built Spontaneous Cleric 4/Warblade 8 than it is to play a Paladin 12. If she really wants her third level spells, I'm sure there's an acceptable Prestige Class somewhere that you can use. If I'm not mistaken, there's a Divine version of the Abjurant Champion.

Giving your player some sort of visual aid for her abilities will also make things a lot easier for her, I'm sure. Maneuver Cards come to mind, as well as a list of all of her spells and what they do.

Morph Bark
2010-07-02, 03:53 AM
If it hasn't been said yet: have the player make cards of the maneuvers her character knows with everything on it that you need to know about the maneuver. She can keep three piles of cards: one with maneuvers she has currently readied, one with maneuvers she has readied but has already expended this encounter and must recover first, and one with maneuvers she knows but hasn't readied.

Though stances would likely take up a fourth pile, but all those "piles" would be small, you just need enough space for them all.

Vaynor
2010-07-02, 03:58 AM
If it hasn't been said yet: have the player make cards of the maneuvers her character knows with everything on it that you need to know about the maneuver. She can keep three piles of cards: one with maneuvers she has currently readied, one with maneuvers she has readied but has already expended this encounter and must recover first, and one with maneuvers she knows but hasn't readied.

Though stances would likely take up a fourth pile, but all those "piles" would be small, you just need enough space for them all.

This. Don't bother making cards, though. WotC has them online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

Morph Bark
2010-07-02, 04:09 AM
This. Don't bother making cards, though. WotC has them online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a).

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about that ever since I saw it a few days ago. Don't forget to print them out though, instead of keeping a laptop around for it. My group has done that due to lack of dice (and later laziness with writing on paper character sheets) and found it is extremely distracting and it creates a barrier between the members of the group.

Vaynor
2010-07-02, 04:16 AM
Indeed. It is a bit to easy to check on your Facebook page between turns.

Runeclaw
2010-07-03, 10:53 PM
If you go Warblade, consider retaining 2 levels of Paladin. This gives you quite a bit of the Paladin feel.

Terazul
2010-07-03, 11:06 PM
Damn, see this is why I'm not good with ToB. I forgot about the ridiculous manuever recovery.

blargblagrl.

Ok yeah, new player, so I can understand. But really, it's NOT that bad as people make it out to be. :smallsigh:

Step 1: Print Out Maneuver Cards!
Step 2: Put your Readied maneuvers in a pile/deck. Shuffle em!
Step 3: At the start of the encounter, deal yourself (however many you're granted)
Step 4: At then end of each turn, draw one.
Step 5: When you can't draw anymore, shuffle everything back together, and go back to step 3.

It's. Really. Easy. With Maneuver Cards. And just 'tap' expended ones so you know you've used them.

The Cat Goddess
2010-07-04, 02:19 AM
At character level 12....

A Paladin-6/Warblade-6. This gives all the Paladin abilities as well as Improved Uncanny Dodge from Warblade.

Paladin-5/Warblade-7 gives Battle Cunning and another Maneuver Known in place of Cure Disease.

I would also suggest using the Pathfinder Paladin to help equalize the power levels of the two classes.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-04, 05:01 AM
If she goes Crusader I recommend printing her the Maneuver Cards available on the WoTC site. Just make a deck out of her maneuvers and have her shuffles and draw from it as necessary. Makes keeping track of everything MUCH simpler for a Crusader IMO.

Edit: Ninjad by like... the whole ninja clan.

Raistlin1040
2010-07-04, 05:12 AM
That's swordsaged to you, punk.

I'm going to see her Monday, most likely, and I'll talk to her then about what is important, explicitly to her character. Most likely she'll be going full Warblade or Warblade with a few Paladin levels. This idea:

3. Replacement. Swap out Ironheart discipline for Devoted Spirit on the list of available disciplines for the class. A straight fighting class with access to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, and White Raven would be a pretty classy paladin. Will definitely be used, though I still need to figure out stances and manuevers and the like.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-04, 05:19 AM
That's swordsaged to you, punk.

I'm going to see her Monday, most likely, and I'll talk to her then about what is important, explicitly to her character. Most likely she'll be going full Warblade or Warblade with a few Paladin levels. This idea:
Will definitely be used, though I still need to figure out stances and manuevers and the like.

May I suggest this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II?pg=1) and this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=357.msg6909#msg6909) as inspiration for effective advice to give her?

Raistlin1040
2010-07-04, 05:25 AM
That is a...rather large amount of builds, to say the least.

Amphetryon
2010-07-04, 05:26 AM
Elven Warblade with a Paladin-esque feel? Check out the Eternal Blade PrC in ToB.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-04, 05:27 AM
That is a...rather large amount of builds, to say the least.

There's no great need to read all of them. Primarily look through those listed as being maneuver-centric, the builds are less important than displaying various effective maneuver combinations.

Iferus
2010-07-04, 07:00 AM
I've played a crusader for two years, and I feel they are suitable for a beginner. Anything you try (build-wise) will work out well enough at the table, and you can have a great paladinesque experience.

Crusader's don't need to be complex in their recovery mechanic: just use the maneuver cards on the WOTC website. You print out whatever the character knows, lay aside the ones that are not readied and shuffle the rest. Keep drawing cards and reshuffle at the end of the turn the last card is drawn.

2xMachina
2010-07-04, 07:09 AM
Crusaders makes D&D a good card game lol.

I activate my trap cardcounter!

YES! I drew {insert maneuver here}. *Proceeds to throw the card down and calling the move name*

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-04, 08:07 AM
You could also go pure Warblade and spend all of your feats gaining adaptive style and devoted spirit strikes and stances. It actualy works out quite well. Also by twelve you can go Master of the Nine, so you can fill up with Devoted Spirit that way (it can add any stance or strike regardless of class). You gain 7 new known strikes and 5 readied. That is a great for a warblade. It's feat intensive to enter though, though most of the feats are actualy not bad. Consider two levels of cobra strike monk to gain the dodge and unarmed reqs, great saves, and evasion with (good save + dex + Int).

You can enter at 8th level, so at twelth you can be a level 12 warblade with 6 devoted spirit strikes. Tell your player to cherry pick the healing strikes. Those are just unfair for a warblade, pulling them out every other turn all day.

You may have to go through the build together, but it would be easy to play, and let the player get a free pass for some normal weaknesses of classes. (when left without armor and weapon, can still fight, blindfight, Improved Init)

Snake-Aes
2010-07-04, 08:26 AM
You could also go pure Warblade and spend all of your feats gaining adaptive style and devoted spirit strikes and stances. It actualy works out quite well. Also by twelve you can go Master of the Nine, so you can fill up with Devoted Spirit that way (it can add any stance or strike regardless of class). You gain 7 new known strikes and 5 readied. That is a great for a warblade. It's feat intensive to enter though, though most of the feats are actualy not bad. Consider two levels of cobra strike monk to gain the dodge and unarmed reqs, great saves, and evasion with (good save + dex + Int).

You can enter at 8th level, so at twelth you can be a level 12 warblade with 6 devoted spirit strikes. Tell your player to cherry pick the healing strikes. Those are just unfair for a warblade, pulling them out every other turn all day.

You may have to go through the build together, but it would be easy to play, and let the player get a free pass for some normal weaknesses of classes. (when left without armor and weapon, can still fight, blindfight, Improved Init)

At that point it's probably easier to do as it was earlier suggested: substitute one of the warblade disciplines for devoted spirit(they suggested iron heart)