The empire seems well run at least...

[krossbow]

Say what you will about the slavery and its leadership, it doesn't appear that the city's too badly off. While the paperwork seems much, Durkon seems to be progressing easily enough.

Additionally, the police during the raid seemed to be handling the situation fairly well; there were no fatalities or needless killings that occured, and it didn't take them too long to sort out the situation once papers were shown.



Alignment issues aside, the government and beurocracy looks to be doing a decent job for the nation.

[Porthos]

So, you're saying that the trains run on time? :smalltongue:

[Castamir]

Invoking Godwin's law, we can say some evil empires were among the most ordered nations ever.

[TreesOfDeath]

Except the trains DIDN'T run on time in Facist italy.

Dictators tend to be hopelessly inefficent but are able to give the appearance of effincry.

This place does seem well ordered, thoughm but it could just be an appearnce.
Or maybe the real power behind the throne is actually very competent

[Castamir]

Yes, Italy was a mess in all regards, but that's why it was not them whom I used as an example.

[Ancalagon]

Invoking Godwin's law, we can say some evil empires were among the most ordered nations ever.

Just that especially the Godwin's-Law-Dicatorship was an utter mess and chaos and probably would not have lasted another decade (surely not a thousand years as it was planned!) without collapsing on its own...

... and, btw, saying that the "trains ran on time", given the destinations and who was transported, would be very cynical or horribly thoughtless.

Please, oh, please, please just think for a minute WHAT you say when making such analogies/jokes that have something to do with the Third Reich.

It was intended as joke but it really, really was none.

[Kaytara]

Yeah. It took me a week to get my unique ID number for my Ukrainean citizenship. And Durkon is able to get his straight off to go? Clearly the bureaucracy isn't THAT bad. :D

[Castamir]

You do realize that the vast, vast majority of trains DID NOT carry those whom you're thinking about?

[Larkspur]

... and, btw, saying that the "trains ran on time", given the destinations and who was transported, would be very cynical or horribly thoughtless..

Oh, for crissake. "The trains run on time" has been a cliche description of fascist Italy for about seventy years. It's describing a perception, not actual historical events; we don't need to either a) debate its accuracy or b) worry about whether the trains were going to Auschwitz, especially because c) due to a) most of the relevant trains never actually got out of Italy because the Italians rerouted them or forgot to send them or whatever, so the vast majority of Italian Jews survived. You can probably get a more accurate understanding of the Italian Holocaust from Hetalia than that "trains run on time" saying, which makes sense because the saying isn't about that.

And yes, I was very impressed with the efficiency of the EoB customs officer. Serves our heroes right for dodging him the first time round- there's no excuse to break local laws for no reason just because you have Wind Walk.

[sihnfahl]

Serves our heroes right for dodging him the first time round- there's no excuse to break local laws for no reason just because you have Wind Walk.
Other than willful ignorance of the law.

[Morph Bark]

This is what you get when an LE government/society is more L than E. It's quite beneficial, also for the E side no doubt.

[Bongos]

Alignment issues aside, the government and beurocracy looks to be doing a decent job for the nation.
Well as long as you aren't one of those slaves. Or I guess the slavemaster's as they are on strike. Or that poor innkeeper getting fined.

[krossbow]

Well as long as you aren't one of those slaves. Or I guess the slavemaster's as they are on strike. Or that poor innkeeper getting fined.

he should have asked to see their papers when checking them in; it doesn't seem like that would have been too difficult. After all, even today its customary for certain services or products to see a driver's license first.

[tomandtish]

Yeah. It took me a week to get my unique ID number for my Ukrainean citizenship. And Durkon is able to get his straight off to go? Clearly the bureaucracy isn't THAT bad. :D

Except he isn't getting citizenship papers (and there's no indication that this paperwork is to apply for citizenship). All he's getting is paperwork showing he entered the city legitimately as opposed to ... say ... stoneshaping through a wall. :smallsmile: Two totally different things. Think of it as getting your passport stamped, and not anything else.

Edit: In the previous comic, they in fact distinguish between citizenship papers and entry papers.

[Knaight]

You do realize that the vast, vast majority of trains DID NOT carry those whom you're thinking about?

For that matter, the vast, vast majority of trains were shipping cargo first and foremost. The next largest group probably being soldiers. Its not as if all trains were set aside for the sole purpose of shipping people to concentration camps, none of the people in charge were that stupid.

[rewinn]

For that matter, the vast, vast majority of trains were shipping cargo first and foremost...

IIRC the lesson from historical evil empires is that it is more important that the trains be reported to be running on time than that they actually run on time. And therefore ... they will be reported to run on time. Everyone wins!

As long as Durkon's papers are in order, they don't seem to care that he's not Evil.

[Boci]

Other than willful ignorance of the law.

If you climb over a fence you may not know you're tresspassing, but you still are, even if you thought the fence was just for cattle. I can see the advantages of moving in secret if your an adventurer, but they need to acknowledge that in doing so they risk inadvertandly dodging legal requirements.

[derfenrirwolv]

Thats part of the problem with punishing employees harshly for doing something wrong. They have more incentive to try to hide the problem, potentially making it worse in the long run. For example turning in a chainsaw to be repaired at my last job came with the assumption that you were the one who broke it, so guesse how well those things worked in an emergency?

[Gift Jeraff]

So you could say competent, Evil dictatorships* are...

...Godwin's Lawful. :smallcool:

*Fever-induced/Spirit Shojo referred to himself as a "scheming, benevolent dictator", so Good dictatorships can exist in Rich's (or maybe just Belkar's) world, I suppose.

[sihnfahl]

If you climb over a fence you may not know you're tresspassing
If you enter another country's borders without checking what their laws are about travel and movement are...

[Boci]

If you enter another country's borders without checking what their laws are about travel and movement are...

That was kinda my point.

[RndmNumGen]

So you could say competent, Evil dictatorships* are...

...Godwin's Lawful. :smallcool:

*Fever-induced/Spirit Shojo referred to himself as a "scheming, benevolent dictator", so Good dictatorships can exist in Rich's (or maybe just Belkar's) world, I suppose.

Good dictatorships can exist anywhere. Yes, even in the real world. Our world. It is however, extremely unlikely because power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that) but if someone in power was to put the needs of the people over themselves, it would work out very well. No form of government is inherently good or evil; it's the people in charge who determine that.

[Dr.Epic]

Say what you will about the slavery and its leadership, it doesn't appear that the city's too badly off. While the paperwork seems much, Durkon seems to be progressing easily enough.

Additionally, the police during the raid seemed to be handling the situation fairly well; there were no fatalities or needless killings that occured, and it didn't take them too long to sort out the situation once papers were shown.



Alignment issues aside, the government and beurocracy looks to be doing a decent job for the nation.

Dragging people off to jail because they lack proper paper work and keeping tight tabs on people: seems like the Empress of Blood took lessons from Big Brother. Good news is that if anyone rolls two separate dice for damage 2+2 now equals 5.

[Gift Jeraff]

Good dictatorships can exist anywhere. Yes, even in the real world. Our world. It is however, extremely unlikely because power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that) but if someone in power was to put the needs of the people over themselves, it would work out very well. No form of government is inherently good or evil; it's the people in charge who determine that.
I was just trying to avoid anyone saying that there is no such thing as a good dictatorships.

[krossbow]

Dragging people off to jail because they lack proper paper work.


You DO realize that if Roy "lacks the proper paper work" that means he broke the law, and the country is well within its rights to prosocute him for illegally entering a country and then starting a bar room brawl where aggravated assault occured, as well as property damage?

We drag people without proper papers off all the time; its called "deportation".

[JonestheSpy]

You DO realize that if Roy "lacks the proper paper work" that means he broke the law, and the country is well within its rights to prosocute him for illegally entering a country and then starting a bar room brawl where aggravated assault occured, as well as property damage?

We drag people without proper papers off all the time; its called "deportation".

Except for the fact that anyone, citizen or not, will be hauled off to jail for walking down the street without their papers. Yeah, most totalitarian states won't jail people who follow every single dictate of the government.

And Enor started the brawl, not Roy.



Yeah. It took me a week to get my unique ID number for my Ukrainean citizenship. And Durkon is able to get his straight off to go? Clearly the bureaucracy isn't THAT bad. :D

Durkon isn't applying for citizenship, nor do we know for sure that he'll get his papers.

[krossbow]

Except for the fact that anyone, citizen or not, will be hauled off to jail for walking down the street without their papers. Yeah, most totalitarian states won't jail people who follow every single dictate of the government.

And Enor started the brawl, not Roy.




That's really not true. All the individuals who had to show their papers had just engaged in a large brawl; if your being investigated in a crime, being forced to show identification is not uncommon, as the police will almost always check to see if you have warrants out. Hell, if you engage in a fight that requires police intervention and don't have ID, you generally WILL be brought into a station until your ID'd and checked out. This is NOT uncommon.
These were not just "people on the street"; there was a miniature riot that required a police raid.

Secondly, Roy was an armed individual questioning another person in a threatening and aggressive manor, especially given his "Maybe i can find a way to convince you" line. Thats clear self defense, especially since its in regard to another criminal (as the bounty hunters stated, it WAS a bounty related retaliation incident).

[Kish]

Roy did not start the brawl. No one in the comic is under the impression Roy started the brawl. Whether Roy's questioning of Gannji was threatening is very much up for debate and, I would say, without knowing Roy's actual tone of voice, we can't know the answer.

It is true that, as far as we've seen, people are only required to show their papers after they've been involved in a crime. This is not remarkable. We don't have evidence to say one way or another that the police in the Empire of Blood do/don't randomly demand people show their papers, though we have sufficient other evidence (the slaves) of the empire being quite Lawful Evil.

[hamishspence]

Secondly, Roy was an armed individual questioning another person in a threatening and aggressive manor, especially given his "Maybe i can find a way to convince you" line. Thats clear self defense, especially since its in regard to another criminal (as the bounty hunters stated, it WAS a bounty related retaliation incident).

Roy didn't come to retaliate (since he knew it was a case of mistaken identity- and points this out to Gannji when they're being hauled off in chains)

He came to Gannji for information, not to "retaliate against him for kidnapping his friends"

[Larkspur]

Dragging people off to jail because they lack proper paper work and keeping tight tabs on people: seems like the Empress of Blood took lessons from Big Brother. Good news is that if anyone rolls two separate dice for damage 2+2 now equals 5.

It's analogous to getting pulled over and found to be driving without a license- our cops would haul you off to the station for that too. We don't know whether there's going to be sentencing or they're just going to be processed, at this point. I agree that, say, enslaving them for illegal entry would be outrageous, but the cops have no capacity to issue entry papers, so they have to haul them off to process them even if they're just going to tell them they were naughty and issue the proper documents. I think we have to wait and see what they do before we start complaining about crimes against humanity- anything beyond a fine and/or deportation would be excessive, but so far they haven't done anything out of line.


Good dictatorships can exist anywhere. Yes, even in the real world. Our world. It is however, extremely unlikely because power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that) but if someone in power was to put the needs of the people over themselves, it would work out very well. No form of government is inherently good or evil; it's the people in charge who determine that.

Except the moral authority to issue orders derives from the consent of the governed, so even if you are Vetinari and you run the most efficient, benevolent dictatorship in the history of the multiverse, there's still a problem with your regime.

It's not necessarily a problem that outweighs the risk of electing some cretin who will run the city-state into the ground, but it's a stain that ticks off a box in the "Inherently Evil" column no matter how well you govern. You'd always be trapped at Goodness = 98% where a democratically elected perfect leader could get a perfect 100.

[Dr.Epic]

You DO realize that if Roy "lacks the proper paper work" that means he broke the law, and the country is well within its rights to prosocute him for illegally entering a country and then starting a bar room brawl where aggravated assault occured, as well as property damage?

We drag people without proper papers off all the time; its called "deportation".

Yeah except it appears you have to have papers for everything and if you don't have them on you at all times you get thrown in jail. You also fail to realize "we" live in the 21st century where a country needs that sort of information and not a medieval society where it would be difficult keeping track of everyone.

[hamishspence]

It may not in fact be a "medieval society"- it's an Empire- according to DMG2, empires need to be Lawful, and somewhat bureauocratic, to survive, otherwise they fall apart.

Empires, especially in fantasy, may end up with lots of paperwork.

[RndmNumGen]

Except the moral authority to issue orders derives from the consent of the governed, so even if you are Vetinari and you run the most efficient, benevolent dictatorship in the history of the multiverse, there's still a problem with your regime.

It's not necessarily a problem that outweighs the risk of electing some cretin who will run the city-state into the ground, but it's a stain that ticks off a box in the "Inherently Evil" column no matter how well you govern. You'd always be trapped at Goodness = 98% where a democratically elected perfect leader could get a perfect 100.

I would disagree. What if Washington decided to keep his position instead of giving it up after two terms? In essence, he would have been a dictator, yet he would probably have had a 100% approval rating (he was unanimously elected both times). Would George Washington and the USA then been Evil? I wouldn't say so... If the people like their ruler, it doesn't matter if he is a president, a council, a junta, king or despot. They still want to be governed by him. I fear this might be getting too far deep into the "real-world politics" territory that is against the rules on this forum however, so we should probably drop it (or at least take it to PMs).

[hamishspence]

In D&D, the alignment of a regime (Good/Evil axis) isn't dependant on it being democratic or dictatorial- going by DMG2 and Cityscape.

Probably best to avoid real-world parallels though.

DMG2: "In a tyranny, the leader has taken over by force and rules without traditional authority. Any form of government can become a tyrnnay. Tyrants tend to govern by personal fiat, tosing aside the rule of law. Sometimes they are wiser and more just than their legitimate predescessors. More often, they govern by force, enriching a band of loyal thugs who back up their decrees at swordpoint."

So in D&D, a tyrant can be a "more just" ruler than a legitimate one.

[Ancalagon]

It's not necessarily a problem that outweighs the risk of electing some cretin who will run the city-state into the ground, but it's a stain that ticks off a box in the "Inherently Evil" column no matter how well you govern. You'd always be trapped at Goodness = 98% where a democratically elected perfect leader could get a perfect 100.

Actually, I do not follow that theory. I rather think the main reason for democracies is they much harder degrade into a "bad extreme". In regard to a perfection-scale of -100 to +100, democracies can range from -50 to +70 ( ro so) while dictatorship (monarchies, whatever) can work much better, up to a +100. But they also degrate much easier into something much worse, like -100.

So the big point that defines democracies (and make them the only valid choice, imo) is they might need consensus and thus get prevented from working as "good" of efficient as possible, but they also cannot degrade into something really bad.

Also, no one said a "dicatorship" could not have a Constitutional State and a State of Law (with some obvious exception for the leader). In fact, this brings us 2400 years in the past to Aristotle, who claimed the best constitution would be a mix of democracy (be careful, his democracy is not exactly as we might expect), an oligary and a monarchy, lead by a "philosopher king" (educated benevolent dictator).

Democracys never can hit 100. Or even come near, simply because they HAVE to take other opinions into account and cannot do "what has to get done" simply because too many cooks have a word in what gets done (also party-internal). Just look how RL political projects have to struggle, no leader is able to bring it through parliament as it "was planned". Given the leader/giverment has 100% in mind and has "The Clue" what is the right it won't be anymore once the "due process" in the democracy has taken place.
Yet, the same is true for the "Bad things" any (principally democratic) government might want to do.

[hamishspence]

In fact, this brings us 2400 years in the past to Aristotle, who claimed the best constitution would be a mix of democracy (be careful, his democracy is not exactly as we might expect), an oligary and a monarchy, lead by a "philosopher king" (educated benevolent dictator).

Machiavelli argued almost the same thing in The Discourses- saying that any government with only one power center, tended to degrade, so you need all 3.

There are many parallels between the two.

[tomandtish]

Roy did not start the brawl. No one in the comic is under the impression Roy started the brawl. Whether Roy's questioning of Gannji was threatening is very much up for debate and, I would say, without knowing Roy's actual tone of voice, we can't know the answer.

It is true that, as far as we've seen, people are only required to show their papers after they've been involved in a crime. This is not remarkable. We don't have evidence to say one way or another that the police in the Empire of Blood do/don't randomly demand people show their papers, though we have sufficient other evidence (the slaves) of the empire being quite Lawful Evil.

Based on what we’ve seen, the tavern owner was fined for lodging Roy and Belkar (and presumably Durkon had he been caught). Presumably that fine was for lodging them when they didn’t have appropriate papers. Therefore it appears you have to show papers a lot more often than just when the guards ask for them. IE: The owner is fined becuase he didn't ask for papers, and the expectaton is that all visitors will show papers when they rent lodging.

[Ancalagon]

Machiavelli argued almost the same thing in The Discourses- saying that any government with only one power center, tended to degrade, so you need all 3.

There are many parallels between the two.

But the motivation and details are very, very different. Machiavelli was a broke, politically very experienced person who wrote down how he saw it "worked" and hoped to get money for it from his Lord.
He was so experienced that he made sure he wrote the money-part as his first sentences. ;)

Aristotle described what he thought was the perfect Constitution.

While there are paralells I think the two are very different. But the point is (I expressed it before): that we have a dictatorship here does not have to mean it can work very well. Even if the Government is an Lawful Evil one, which makes it a bit more unlikely to work out in a decent way but it's not totally impossible. For example, a Lawful Evil dictator could see his country runs best (economy, safety, stability of the army) if the everyday lilfe of the citizens is ordered and fair, if the everyday quarrels and law-things are resolved as fair as possible.
That creates a stable country with stable tax income and little reason for neighbours to think it's an easy target.

[hamishspence]

But the motivation and details are very, very different. Machiavelli was a broke, politically very experienced person who wrote down how he saw it "worked" and hoped to get money for it from his Lord.
He was so experienced that he made sure he wrote the money-part as his first sentences. ;)

That was more The Prince than The Discourses- which is far more about republics- and how to set them up so that they last as long as possible and can weather crisis as well as possible).

It also mentions that "dictatorial authority" is something republics need in a crisis- and that it should be limited term only.

The Discourses, much more than The Prince, represents his "ideal society"

On Lawful Evil regimes in D&D- Fiendish Codex 2 has much to say on the typical traits of a LE country.

[Joerg]

Based on what we’ve seen, the tavern owner was fined for lodging Roy and Belkar. Presumably that fine was for lodging them when they didn’t have appropriate papers. Therefore it appears you have to show papers a lot more often than just when the guards ask for them. IE: The owner is fined becuase he didn't ask for papers, and the expectaton is that all visitors will show papers when they rent lodging.

That is not unusual either. I've been in several countries already where I had to show an ID when I checked in at a hotel.

[kpenguin]

In fact, this brings us 2400 years in the past to Aristotle, who claimed the best constitution would be a mix of democracy (be careful, his democracy is not exactly as we might expect), an oligary and a monarchy, lead by a "philosopher king" (educated benevolent dictator).

Was that Aristotle? I believe the "Philosopher King" was Plato in his The Republic

[silvadel]

It would have been funny if Haley were the one left out instead and had to go and get papers....

Haley at the gate: Hello I would like to get in... etc... gets papers ... sneaks out...

Haley at the gate (disguised as Roy) : ....

Haley at the gate (disguised as Durkon) : ...

[Ancalagon]

Was that Aristotle? I believe the "Philosopher King" was Plato in his The Republic

Both have the concept of that. Yet, Aristotle propses his mixed constitution.
Aristotle has six types of governments, three good ones and their derailed, evil conterparts.
The leader of the monarchy must, of course, be a wise, educated philospher king. So that he wants one as well for his mixed constitution is no real surprise.

[Swordpriest]

Both have the concept of that. Yet, Aristotle propses his mixed constitution.
Aristotle has six types of governments, three good ones and their derailed, evil conterparts.
The leader of the monarchy must, of course, be a wise, educated philospher king. So that he wants one as well for his mixed constitution is no real surprise.

All your points here are well-said. You don't have to look much further than some of the medieval Italian city-states to see that a basically dictatorial leader can be mostly benevolent, or that a basically democratic government can be evil -- and the reverse.

[Duaneyo1]

The problem with the philosopher king theory, is that no real person is capable and benevolent enough to make it work….

Are a few people on this board actually talking about the empire of blood as an example of well functioning government? I don’t know exactly where everyone lives, but I’ll take a wild guess that we all live in a developed country with representative government. If you really want to live in an actual monarchy, totalitarian or a no government society, there are still places in this world to investigate. But you will probably be far happier where you are.

[Skorj]

Good dictatorships can exist anywhere. Yes, even in the real world. Our world. It is however, extremely unlikely because power corrupts (and absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that) but if someone in power was to put the needs of the people over themselves, it would work out very well. No form of government is inherently good or evil; it's the people in charge who determine that.

Note that, while a "good dictatorship" is a bit impractical in our world (thanks to the whole power corrupts thing), it could be very practical in a D&D world. Given well defined alignments and a Detect Alignment spell, a system to maintain a "good dictatorship" isn't far-fetched at all.

Similarly, in a D&D world you could reasonably expect that a high priest who claimed to be acting is his god(ess)'s name really was (due to the absence of messy public divine smiting). As E E Smith pointed out in his Lensman novels, the problem with corruption in human systems is that we have only humans to police them. Given an uncorruptable source of judgement that could be unambiguously interpreted by the general public, everything we know about human organizations changes.

[ChowGuy]

Based on what we’ve seen, the tavern owner was fined for lodging Roy and Belkar (and presumably Durkon had he been caught). Presumably that fine was for lodging them when they didn’t have appropriate papers. Therefore it appears you have to show papers a lot more often than just when the guards ask for them. IE: The owner is fined becuase he didn't ask for papers, and the expectaton is that all visitors will show papers when they rent lodging.


And this is different from the times in any number of countries I've been required to not only show, but leave my passport at the Hotel Desk on check-in how?

ETA: By the way, if "not having a democraticly elected leader" makes a contry or city/state (in the Stick-verse or elsewhere) "Inherently Evil" then we must conclude that Azure City was also Inherently Evil, and the Paladins who supported the dictatorial Shojo should have fallen immediately.

[Larkspur]

Democracys never can hit 100. Or even come near, simply because they HAVE to take other opinions into account and cannot do "what has to get done" simply because too many cooks have a word in what gets done (also party-internal). Just look how RL political projects have to struggle, no leader is able to bring it through parliament as it "was planned". Given the leader/giverment has 100% in mind and has "The Clue" what is the right it won't be anymore once the "due process" in the democracy has taken place.

If we can postulate a Perfect Benevolent Dictator, I don't see why it's any more implausible to postulate a Perfect Intelligent Citizenry who vote for a Perfect Wise Parliament in which the "right" course of action is always backed by the coalition needed to enact it. Granted, you then need everyone to be right most of the time, but at least you don't need one person to be right all the time.

Obviously in real life neither are going to occur, but they strike me as equally (un)realistic.


Note that, while a "good dictatorship" is a bit impractical in our world (thanks to the whole power corrupts thing), it could be very practical in a D&D world. Given well defined alignments and a Detect Alignment spell, a system to maintain a "good dictatorship" isn't far-fetched at all.

Until they come up with "Detect Well-intentioned but Disastrous Policy" I don't think the detection spells are going to solve the potential problems with dictatorships.


By the way, if "not having a democraticly elected leader" makes a contry or city/state (in the Stick-verse or elsewhere) "Inherently Evil" then we must conclude that Azure City was also Inherently Evil

I think there's a good case against Azure City, to be honest, but I suspect the Empire of Blood == LE crowd are probably basing their assessment less on the electoral system and more on the slaves and the whole Empire of BLOOD thing.

[Bongos]

Well there is a big difference between military usurpation and royal succession. Neither are democratically elected, but they still aren't the same.

[krossbow]

Well there is a big difference between military usurpation and royal succession. Neither are democratically elected, but they still aren't the same.


of course not. I vote we should all demand Britain go back and stomp those rebels into the dust for their armed usurpation of power, and we should all have banded together to get the Tzar back into power.

[RndmNumGen]

And this is different from the times in any number of countries I've been required to not only show, but leave my passport at the Hotel Desk on check-in how?

ETA: By the way, if "not having a democraticly elected leader" makes a contry or city/state (in the Stick-verse or elsewhere) "Inherently Evil" then we must conclude that Azure City was also Inherently Evil, and the Paladins who supported the dictatorial Shojo should have fallen immediately.

That is a good point. If there was a being of pure Law and Good running some nation as a dictator(I can't really see such a being running it as such all the time, but rather advising the mortal ruler; during a crisis or something he might take over though). Especially if that being had powers similar to the Oracle, were he could know the truth about things and react accordingly. Such a nation might indeed be better for the people than a democratic one, since humans screw things up all the time.

As that deva said, "our clerics don't make clerical errors".

[tomandtish]

And this is different from the times in any number of countries I've been required to not only show, but leave my passport at the Hotel Desk on check-in how?

It's not. My comment was in response to kish's comment that they apparently only had to show their papers because they were involved in a crime. I was pointing out that they apparently have to show their papers more often than that.

[Ancalagon]

If we can postulate a Perfect Benevolent Dictator, I don't see why it's any more implausible to postulate a Perfect Intelligent Citizenry who vote for a Perfect Wise Parliament in which the "right" course of action is always backed by the coalition needed to enact it. Granted, you then need everyone to be right most of the time, but at least you don't need one person to be right all the time.

If you have "many people" who are contributing to the mix, you always have many opinions that are reflected in the descision. I find it unlikely that "good idea 1" + "good idea 2" creates "very, very good idea". At least the politics I observe on a daily basis rather indicate that "good idea 1" + "good idea 2" + "screaming from those who disagree to anything" creates "some crappy idea".
If you can just put "good idea 1" or "good idea 2" in action, you do not have that softening. Just look what happend to Obama's attempts to follow his ideas (I'm NOT saying they were good, we simply do not know. We just know there's not much left of what was originally proposed).


Obviously in real life neither are going to occur, but they strike me as equally (un)realistic.

That is not what a discussion about state THEORY is about. It's about potentials. Also note, a "philosopher king" is NOT the "perfect king". He's just "much better than a Tyrant and has a chance" to do the right things while the "Tyrant" (Tyranny is, according to Aristotle, the bad brother of Monarchy) has none.

[Onyavar]

Whoa. When this thread started off with comments like


... Godwin's law ... Auschwitz ... some evil empires ... trains in Facist italy ...

, I would never have thought this thread would ever manage to get to neutral territory again, even less to derail to an interesting, long and still even polite discussion about


... Obama's attempts ... "philosopher king" ... according to Aristotle... Good dictatorship... George Washington ... Britain ... stomp those rebels ... USA then been Evil? ... Machiavelli argued ... perfect Constitution ... get the Tzar back ...

I enjoy the resourcefulness and civility of most of your arguments, while still waiting for Roland seizing this thread.

[silvadel]

That is a good point. If there was a being of pure Law and Good running some nation as a dictator(I can't really see such a being running it as such all the time, but rather advising the mortal ruler; during a crisis or something he might take over though). Especially if that being had powers similar to the Oracle, were he could know the truth about things and react accordingly. Such a nation might indeed be better for the people than a democratic one, since humans screw things up all the time.

As that deva said, "our clerics don't make clerical errors".


The problem is when they actually do make an error the urge to not acknowledge it can torture logic till you end up with evil being done in the name of good.

Not acknowledging that an error CAN happen is a bad thing.

[Larkspur]

If you have "many people" who are contributing to the mix, you always have many opinions that are reflected in the descision. I find it unlikely that "good idea 1" + "good idea 2" creates "very, very good idea". At least the politics I observe on a daily basis rather indicate that "good idea 1" + "good idea 2" + "screaming from those who disagree to anything" creates "some crappy idea"

It kind of depends on whether or not the best idea is the hot, cold or lukewarm idea, and how extreme your parliamentary factions are. I could easily envision a scenario where you have, say, the Communist Party, the Centrist Party and the Libertarian Party, and the need for both Communists and Libertarians to build a coalition with the Centrists before passing anything forces them to implement reasonable economic policy, but if you give either of them free reign by making them Dictator the country would quickly go to hell in a handbasket.

OTOH you could also have a system where you have Socialists, Conservatives and Fascists and the need to build coalitions means the Conservatives team up with the Fascists and destroy the country.

I could come up with RL examples for either, but I won't for fear of Modhammer. The point is, both scenarios are plausible depending on how polarized the electorate is and whether the best policy is at an extreme or in the center.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Locked for review. Please avoid real world politics - regardless of how long ago the events took place.