Something Important.

[Darthteej]

Strip #275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html). The whole business of why there was a planet within the planet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), was because the gods had "created the planet to exist in multiple coterminous dimensions, thus blocking the only vibrations the snarl could have used to escape it's cell."

For reference, according to the Merriam-Webster-Free:

co·ter·mi·nous
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)kō-ˈtər-mə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: alteration of conterminous

1 : having the same or coincident boundaries <a voting district coterminous with the city>
2 : coextensive in scope or duration <an experience of life coterminous with the years of his father — Elizabeth Hardwick>

— co·ter·mi·nous·ly adverb

The planet that can be seen is the same one that the story takes place on, seen from the Snarl's perspective, and "behind it"(likely speaking in at least 4D terms), is the way for the snarl to escape.

It might also be the planet that was destroyed, but I know without looking that there are a million threads proposing that. Speaking of which, I'm sorry if this possibility has already been discussed.

[Ancalagon]

It's a good find but this has been discussed. The consensus (somewhat ;)) seems to be the landmasses and icecaps (if it is ice and not clouds) do not seem to fit what we know about the OotS-World (World 2.0).

This does not mean it CANNOT be the oots-planet, though. Maybe we see it turned or from the backside or so... but it does not seem likely.

[Darthteej]

It's a good find but this has been discussed. The consensus (somewhat ;)) seems to be the landmasses and icecaps (if it is ice and not clouds) do not seem to fit what we know about the OotS-World (World 2.0).

This does not mean it CANNOT be the oots-planet, though. Maybe we see it turned or from the backside or so... but it does not seem likely.

I thought that at first too, but the former world shown in #274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), seems to lack them too, though the landmasses are different. This means that either the art is simplified and/or vauge, or that this planet that was seen is entirely new, and I'd chalk it up to the former.

[Mystic Muse]

Could the ice caps have formed naturally? We don't know how time passes in the Snarl's world and even if it passed normally, it's possible they had an ice age or something in the time the OOTS world has existed.

[Capt Spanner]

My wild guess as to what the planet is:

1. It's the original world the Gods made. The Snarl isn't really in the centre as such, but IS space in a rather metaphysical way.

2. The Snarl grew creative and made its own world with its divine powers.

[Fable Wright]

Maybe the snarl isn't evil; it just unmakes creation, and then remakes it in the other world. Who knows? That's just my idea.

[snafu]

Maybe the snarl isn't evil; it just unmakes creation, and then remakes it in the other world. Who knows? That's just my idea.

Perhaps the Snarl destroys gods, not worlds. The gates lead, not to a prison for a monster, but to a cosmic null-magic zone at a more stable energy state. If not firmly suppressed it would spread, eating the magic from the surrounding cosmos and using the liberated energy to inflate its own spacetime. It's the vacuum metastability catastrophe applied to a fantasy setting.

We know from experience that planets can exist just fine in a magic-free setting. But I fear for any wizard's familiar trying to cross the boundary and explore one!

[sol-decentguy]

My wild guess as to what the planet is:

2. The Snarl grew creative and made its own world with its divine powers.

I agree with that hypothesis. When the gods made order around the snarl, it could not comprehend at the time what was going on, while trapped it had to do something to pass the time, and the world the raven saw was it. Great middle Earth reference too.:smallsmile:

[Ancalagon]

"Old theory stated various times before, but that is still one of the best":

Remember the Snarl consists of Strains of Creation itself. If anything, the Snarl is nothing but "Creation" of the gods, yet in a very chaotic way.
That chaos initially swirled around and "unmade anything it touched", that Thing was called "the Snarl".
But with time (being inside the prison) the Strains of Creation that once were made during creating a world stopped swirling around, stopped being pure chaos, got slower, became... something. They became world. This seems likely as the "Snarl Threads" were interwoven with the remains of World 1.0.

This would ALSO explain why the Snarl does not reach out through the holes in World 2.0 (the rift above Azure City): There simply is no Snarl anymore. Snarl + Remains of World 1.0 became what they actually have been since the beginning: A world.

[hamishspence]

Still raises the question of why there were still Snarl-type tendrils with claws, prior to the sealing of the gates- in the crayon strips.

Maybe the crayon strips are misleading- or maybe the gates had a profound effect on The Snarl- finally turning it into the new world.

It might work some other way.

[Bongos]

I agree with the OP, it's probably the world in a different dimension. There are several ways to explain why the view of the landmasses is different.

[Darthteej]

I agree with the OP, it's probably the world in a different dimension. There are several ways to explain why the view of the landmasses is different.

I'm not quite sure of that anymore, after hearing some of the arguments, but it could certainly still be it. What I mainly base this on is V commenting that this may involve things greater than they are aware of.

The fact is that we don't know much about The Snarl. It is true that Redcloak never tested whether the Snarl reached out or not, and there's nothing saying that what we know is accurate. There could be something that is completely unknown, even by the gods who first created it.

[Devils_Advocate]

My theory on the Snarl is this: It was driven by fury at the gods' discord. The deities twisted the threads of Reality to such a degree that Reality actively resented it. But implicit in condemnation of discord is idealization of harmony. Of longing for a world where countless disparate elements don't conflict with each other, but are arranged in such a way as to reinforce and strengthen each other. Somehow, in some way inconceivable to headstrong zealots who each see all agendas other than their own as competing agendas. A world where thousands of different demands are addressed together through interdependence, not competition. A world rebuilt to be... more coherent. More perfect.

The gods compromised with each other and answered the question "How can these competing ideas all exist together?", and thereby created a new world without the original problem. But there exists a theoretical alternative to this: not a different answer to the same question, but an answer to the alternative question "What does a world need to look like in order for these many different ideas all not to conflict with each other?"

Like, say, maybe trolls make magic weapons in order to use them to harass goats! :smalltongue:

I'm probably wrong, but hey.


Strip #275 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html). The whole business of why there was a planet within the planet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), was because the gods had "created the planet to exist in multiple coterminous dimensions, thus blocking the only vibrations the snarl could have used to escape it's cell."
Hmmm. That sounds like a reference to the way that the Material Plane (and only the Material Plane) is sandwiched between the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow. This is true in every 3.5 cosmology, so far as I know, and presumably holds in OotSworld as well. Then again, it could just be a coincidence.

[snikrept]

What we know about the Snarl is handed down orally by people who never themselves saw it in action. All records of the Snarl were purged from libraries by Soon's people soon after the campaign of the scribble.

So consider what we've been told about what the Snarl did may be just telephone-game hearsay that's become incorrect. Or outright lies. Maybe there were never any tendrils with claws...

[Morgan Wick]

This would ALSO explain why the Snarl does not reach out through the holes in World 2.0 (the rift above Azure City): There simply is no Snarl anymore. Snarl + Remains of World 1.0 became what they actually have been since the beginning: A world.

Much less time has passed since the Snarl "reached out" and (we think) killed Mijung than had passed at that time since the creation of World 2.0, and to our knowledge, the gods have not tampered with the world or the gates since then, nor could they.

[The Extinguisher]

Perhaps the Snarl destroys gods, not worlds. The gates lead, not to a prison for a monster, but to a cosmic null-magic zone at a more stable energy state. If not firmly suppressed it would spread, eating the magic from the surrounding cosmos and using the liberated energy to inflate its own spacetime. It's the vacuum metastability catastrophe applied to a fantasy setting.

We know from experience that planets can exist just fine in a magic-free setting. But I fear for any wizard's familiar trying to cross the boundary and explore one!

The vacuum metastability catastrophe is probably the scariest thing in the entire universe. I like this idea :smallbiggrin:

[One Step Two]

Has it been confirmed that those white masses are ice and/or clouds?

To me, when I first saw the image, I immediately thought of the colours of the worlds being drained, sort of like pulling out the coloured threads of a complex peice of needle-point, or decorative embroidery, leaving behind the canvas on which it was woven upon.

[Darthteej]

Has it been confirmed that those white masses are ice and/or clouds?

To me, when I first saw the image, I immediately thought of the colours of the worlds being drained, sort of like pulling out the coloured threads of a complex peice of needle-point, or decorative embroidery, leaving behind the canvas on which it was woven upon.

You will now be put through the same fate as the Squaresoft Intern. (http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff03)

[denthor]

Zues and company was killed by the snarl.

The gods of the East were left for dead.

The story we know does not account for what happened after the glorified petting zoo and company left for an untold amount of time.

Maybe the other gods told there clerics about them but Rich is the DM and weaving a story.

The gods story must be told in some way maybe prequel book -2?

I think they will play a part before it is all over and who knows maybe this planet in the rift is why the snarl is not reaching out because Zues made it before the other showed back up.

[One Step Two]

You will now be put through the same fate as the Squaresoft Intern. (http://socksmakepeoplesexy.net/index.php?a=ff03)

Wow, thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Edited for more words:

In reference to the statement I made above, we need to remember a few things, which I imagine has come up before:

Firstly, the story Lord Shojo told as he was by Soon Kim is something entirely assumed, the gods were keeping this secret, and deigned not to tell anyone in the current world about the snarl, or the rifts allowing it access. What the Snarl may have done beyond killing the Western(?) Pantheon is an assumption, if he destroyed the world the gods created, or destroyed all life on it isn't something we the readers can confirm as solid fact. (If someone can reference anything to the contrary, please let me know)
Furthermore, We really don't know how the Order of the Snarl came to these conclusions either, leaving more holes in their story. Pun not intended.

Secondly, We're assuming that the gods have only made one world originally, when we know that there are other planes of existence, that the Snarl also breached the domains of the gods, how they had to go to seal the snarl away was to re-weave one particular world to lock it away, but the snarl was a part of the original reality, and whether they needed to seal anything else with the snarl is possible too.

Finally, the experiments Redcloak made were all attempts to try and lure the Snarl out of the rift, untill that point we had no idea of how large that prison was, with our only gague being Soon Kims wife who got killed upon initial discovery (along with some bears belonging to Lirian) as to how active the snarl was. To this point we really didn't have any good idea how long this original rift was opened before the Snarl actually tried to reach through it, or actually find it.

In the end, like V, we simply need more information.

[hamishspence]

It does say that the Order of the scribble were "Able to guess at the rifts' true nature" and that "they learned the gods could fix the rifts, but only by undoing creation"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

So it's possible that Soon, at least, was able to converse with the gods and find this out.

It also gives an exact figure for how long it took The Snarl to undo creation- 27 minutes.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

So- if it's all surmise, it's pretty exact surmise.

[One Step Two]

It does say that the Order of the scribble were "Able to guess at the rifts' true nature" and that "they learned the gods could fix the rifts, but only by undoing creation"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


That word guess seems to be more in my favour, but I get what you're saying, more below.




So it's possible that Soon, at least, was able to converse with the gods and find this out.

It also gives an exact figure for how long it took The Snarl to undo creation- 27 minutes.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

So- if it's all surmise, it's pretty exact surmise.

Communication with the gods is possible given high level divine spell access, but they are known to be somewhat cryptic in most cases. The 27 minutes, and other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) known examples of divine directness aside, the manner in which the Snarl undid creation is open to interpretation, the image the crayon gave us was a simple analogy the world being shattered before a beast beyond comprehension.

It could be possible that the world was unmade in a similar way, hence my interpretation as written above.
At the same time, we don't really know all that much about the snarl, something to point out is as we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html), the snarl is made within the world, it tore free, possibly it did break the world. What this also gives rise to in my mind, is that the world within the world could be the snarl in a dormant state wound up upon itself, or possibly even trying to re-weave itself.

The snarl has been sealed away for a long time, seperate from man and god alike, it may have learned, or begun to learn, how it shapes itself, or how it interacts with it's prison. The Snarl itself is the stuff of creation, who knows what potential it could achieve if it has become aware and decided to re-shape itself.

Edit: Ooh, I'm a dwarf now, awesomesauce.

[Darthteej]

If the destruction of The Snarl involved undoing "creation" itself, I wonder if that means that they simply destroy the threads of reality, ending the universe forever?

If that's the case, then it might be that they could confront The Snarl directly, but there's some even greater consequence.

[One Step Two]

Well, it could be like Exalted, where it's death isn't necessarily it's end. But they don't need to confront the snarl so much as make sure it can't breach its prison.

The following has been spoilered for possible plot assumptions/predictions:

Remember, Lirian and Dorukan's souls are trapped inside a crystal that may or may not be on Xykons' person, (I remain speculative about what magical items or gear he has since none of it was recovered after the red-mountain gate incident). If they can be freed and True Ressurection'd, they could cast the ritual to re-seal the rifts, if Durkon and V are unable to learn it that is.

[Nimrod's Son]

I remain speculative about what magical items or gear he has since none of it was recovered after the red-mountain gate incident
None of it, eh? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

[One Step Two]

None of it, eh? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

Sorry, I should have specified that we did not and were not able to witness any of the items or gear being recovered or transported out of the Dungeon of Durokan, other than the phylactery itself. Of course your link reminded me of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html), so Rich may simply have house-ruled that all his gear popped back up with him, other than the crown which Roy took with him....

As you can see, while I don't mind them, these few wrinkles in the plot makes any speculation on our parts very shaky. But they are just that, speculation.

[Nimrod's Son]

I can't believe Rich would introduce the gem into the online strip - in the same panel as another magic item that we know he still possesses - and not plan to use it in the future. It's pretty much a guarantee we'll see it again, even if only to see the souls of Dorukan and Lirian get released.

There's also the potential for Xykon to use it again, of course.