Regarding Sigil/Lady of Pain

[CirclesAllOver]

My friend and I are writing a level 20 3.5 one-shot to co-DM and we want to set it in Sigil, but we can't figure out a good reason why the Lady of Pain wouldn't stop the BBEG in her tracks. Why it's a big enough problem for the PC's to take care of, but for her to do nothing.

Also, we are planning to use the Joker Bard idea for the BBEG if that helps.

[hamishspence]

The Lady tends to deal with really large issues- like faction wars- and even then, only after they've gone on a while.

[Mystic Muse]

My friend and I are writing a level 20 3.5 one-shot to co-DM and we want to set it in Sigil, but we can't figure out a good reason why the Lady of Pain wouldn't stop the BBEG in her tracks. Why it's a big enough problem for the PC's to take care of, but for her to do nothing.

Also, we are planning to use the Joker Bard idea for the BBEG if that helps.

Fluff is mutable. I know (or at least, I hear) that the lady of Pain is essential to Sigil. you can ask the DM to take her out of the setting, or, and this is probably the better option, give the BBEG a powerful one use artifact that makes him immune to her abilities. Vecna pulled something like this off so there is precedence.

[kamikasei]

Because the Lady doesn't give a damn. Unless the villain's plan affects her, she doesn't care what he does (or doesn't act as if she cares - same difference).

What's the villain actually up to?

[Killer Angel]

You're giving too little details. What is doing the BBEG?
If it don't put at serious risk Sigil's equilibrium / existence, She won't care at all.

Edit: obviously, double ninja'd. Do you ever sleep? :smalltongue:

[HunterOfJello]

There are a few ways you could go about doing this.




According to my quick look up of the Lady of Pain on wikipedia, Vecna almost overthrew her in a 2nd edition module. You could always have the BBEG be a servant of Vecna.


Another option, and one that could be fun is capitalizing on the Lady of Pain's role in Sigil. She interferes in the city to restore it to balance. If you want her to leave the BBEG alone, then have some sort of problem with the balance of power in Sigil with the BBEG working towards restoring balance him/herself. However, the outcome that the BBEG will end up completing, will badly hurt the PCs or their faction.

[CirclesAllOver]

The idea we have so far is that the BBEG is sowing chaos. We're thinking that she has a Deck of Many Things, and has possibly figured a way to stack it, and is forcing people to pull cards. Basically just running around messing things up. Causing factions to think the others are causing problems and the like. Definitely upsetting the balance.

[The Rose Dragon]

Consider ants. They are highly numerous, and to each other and things of their magnitude, they are highly threatening. Due to survival reasons, different colonies might fight with each other and other insects. Unless they decide to eat your food or attack you, however, they are fairly easy to ignore. Even then, getting rid of an individual ant is easy, and you can poison the whole colony if you know where to find it.

This, magnified a few hundred thousand times, is how the Lady of Pain feels about most everything else. To her, we are insignificant. She has enough power to bar gods from Sigil, and Sigil has survived much more powerful beings than a group of your level can reasonably match for millennia. Why should she care about this mortal more than she has cared for any other?

[Fritzelle]

Co-DM here. :smallwink:

The character that the BBEG will be harassing is supremely lawful; he could comfortably vacation in the Clockwork Nirvana. The BBEG will be doing everything in her power to spread chaos with said character in her sights, which will result in mass panic.

The campaign will not be solely devoted to Sigil, but a large portion of it will take place there.

Is it possible that the Lady of Pain would hold off on restoring balance herself if someone else were a significant balancing factor? I've read up on the Lady of Pain, but I haven't actually played anything with her before. The player this is focusing on, however, has.

We just want to make sure the Lady of Pain is behaving cogently with reference to her past actions. :smallwink:

Edit:
The bad mortal threatens to destroy Sigil's entire mortal population, through the aforementioned deck and a pile of other very nasty tricks.
The good mortal could prevent this.

In short, would this scenario pop up on the Lady of Pain's radar?

[blueblade]

hehe, just thought of a good twist. have your PCs trick the BBEG force a Dabus to draw a card. Game over!

Fritzelle, safe to say the Lady of Pain is completely and utterly enigmatic. Your players could be experts in her history and still have no idea what interests or motivates her.

And on the Vecna thing, I thought it was only Vecna that thought she had come anywhere near defeating the LoP?

[Fritzelle]

So in other words, if the Lady of Pain were to act in a way that an avid Planescape fan would find bewildering...nothing is amiss?

That makes our job much easier. :smallwink:

[Aroka]

The Lady of Pain wouldn't act unless the dabuses were attacked, or something actually threatened to physically destroy Sigil. Indeed, wholesale invasion might go unnoticed if it only aimed at a regime change in the actual running of the place (i.e. replacing the factions with some other power group). The Lady is inscrutable.

As far as balance goes - why should the Lady act to "create balance" ? Everything will balance itself out. A villain gets dealt with by heroes, heroes get killed by villains, the demons push here, the angels push there... balance doesn't mean "status quo where nothing happens" - most especially not in Sigil. Balance can mean "a whole mess of things happening in all sorts of interesting and dangerous ways".

The default is always that the Lady doesn't act. It's always strange and notable and significant when she does. (Or just plain random and vicious.) She's an intentional, permanent Deus Ex Machina fixture, and ignoring her is always easy.

[Morph Bark]

The Lady of Pain is Pun-pun in Sigil, but having changed her race from kobold to... something else. She has no time for any silly un-Punny trivialities, and certainly none who do not stand at her level of power could understand her motivations.

And her having no time for trivialities says a lot for a being who might* be able to cast time stop at will.

In other news, it could be made into a plot point that the Lady of Pain is gone for some reason and the BBEG is taking advantage of that. The party could work into getting her back, since that would at least keep Sigil from turning into the center of an all-planar war.

*This is pure conjecture. For all you know I am just spreading pro-Lady of Pain propaganda.

[paddyfool]

There are five main ... guidelines... if you like, for using the LoP, if you want to keep Planescape fans happy:


You may not defeat or kill the Lady of Pain
You may not become a god in Sigil, or enter Sigil if you are a god.
You may not destroy Sigil
If you significantly damage Sigil, or mess with the Dabus, expect severe consequences from the LoP
Beyond the above rules, you must keep the Lady of Pain enigmatic.


Anything else goes. However, I'm not sure about "destroying the entire mortal population"; even if the LoP is OK with it, there are quite a number of other powerful figures around who wouldn't be. Put simply, it would upset business as usual, and severely annoy some powerful vested interests, such as, oh, Solars, Pit Fiends, epic level spellcasters etc.

[Zen Master]

Personally, I consider the Lady of Pain to be an enigma. In my book, she is supposed to ignore the things you might consider to be relavant to her - and act against things that would seem irrelevant.

As such, she might completely ignore devils and angels fighting out a war on her turf - then destroy a merchant clan peddling forks and knives made from some exotic material from a distant prime material location.

Or some such. But that's based on the feeling I have of her - and as such might be something completely different from what others feel =)

[hamishspence]

The Lady of Pain is Pun-pun in Sigil, but having changed her race from kobold to... something else. She has no time for any silly un-Punny trivialities, and certainly none who do not stand at her level of power could understand her motivations.

Would that be the Lady Of Pun hypothesis? :smallamused:

[Killer Angel]

[LIST]
You may not defeat or kill the Lady of Pain
You may not become a god in Sigil, or enter Sigil if you are a god.
You may not destroy Sigil
If you significantly damage Sigil, or mess with the Dabus, expect severe consequences from the LoP

Anything else goes. However, I'm not sure about "destroying the entire mortal population"; even if the LoP is OK with it, there are quite a number of other powerful figures around who wouldn't be.

Leaving aside the "other powerful figures", very probably, exterminating all life on Sigil IS a thing that upset the Lady.
But before that point, I suppose the PCs failed horribly in stopping BBEG's plan, and they'll be in the body count, so the question is moot.

[Eldan]

So in other words, if the Lady of Pain were to act in a way that an avid Planescape fan would find bewildering...nothing is amiss?

That makes our job much easier. :smallwink:

If she didn't do bewildering things from time to time, an avid planescape fan would think something is amiss.

Really, the easiest solution is: "For some reason, the Lady didn't care."

[Analytica]

Actually, you have some plot hooks right here. The Lady does not act. Have NPCs discuss, in frightened tones, why she doesn't. The implication would be that the chaos-spreader is in the Lady's favour. Ideally, the PCs should fear stopping her, as they half-expect the Lady to come to the aid of the agent of chaos. They might try to find out why, and only get cryptical remarks out of dabuses or sages.

It turns out that the Lady did not act because she had no need to. The PCs would, eventually, defeat the BBEG, and, being near-omniscient in Sigil, she knew this. Perhaps. The truth might never become clear. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

Would that be the Lady Of Pun hypothesis? :smallamused:

Of course. She is accompanied by an army of Nut-Pain squirrels. Male characters beware. :smallamused:

[Megaduck]

What you could do is that both the BBEG and the PC's have to work under The Lady's edicts while in the city. No laying waste to city blocks, they both have to be subtle.


The character that the BBEG will be harassing is supremely lawful; he could comfortably vacation in the Clockwork Nirvana. The BBEG will be doing everything in her power to spread chaos with said character in her sights, which will result in mass panic.

...

Edit:
The bad mortal threatens to destroy Sigil's entire mortal population, through the aforementioned deck and a pile of other very nasty tricks.
The good mortal could prevent this.

In short, would this scenario pop up on the Lady of Pain's radar?

Yes, yes it would the instant Mass Panic is thrown in there. Sigil was written to be the Neutral center of the universe and it stays that way because everyone knows that the tallest poppy gets its head chopped off.

On the other hand. Your characters are only level 20. I'm not sure how much panic they could cause with such a low level, especially considering the number of other things that make Sigil their home.

[Ossian]

My friend and I are writing a level 20 3.5 one-shot to co-DM and we want to set it in Sigil, but we can't figure out a good reason why the Lady of Pain wouldn't stop the BBEG in her tracks. Why it's a big enough problem for the PC's to take care of, but for her to do nothing.

Also, we are planning to use the Joker Bard idea for the BBEG if that helps.


Go "Bounty Hunter". I explain myself. The template for the clone army was chosen to be Jango Fett after he came out as a winner in bringing a Bando Gora cultist in fetters (well, maybe dead, can't recall exactly right now) to the "employers" (Dooku and Sidious). He was competing with other bounty hunters and they sure killed some a** there and they made their presence felt. In the end, the damage they did was trivial compared to the size of the galaxy they lived in, no big deal for the 2 sith lords in hiding, who had their winner in the end (and the Bando Gora rogue jedi disposed of).

So, if someone who has a short-term plan wants to select the best candidate to carry it out, he might just have set up the BBEG Vs the PCs, and win the best. The damage they can do over such a short amount of time won't be enough to attract the attention of the LoP, especially with the carefully patching-up actions of the secret employers, who closely follow their progress and makes sure they don't screw up and attract unnecessary bladed, flaying and fatal attentions :)

[kjones]

So does anyone have stats for the Lady of Pain?

Deactivating sarcasm mode.

[The Rose Dragon]

So does anyone have stats for the Lady of Pain?

*launches nuclear warhead of scorn on kjones*

SCOOOOOOOOOOOOORN.

[Critical]

Have BBEG Iron Heart Surge the LoP away. :smallbiggrin:

[Fritzelle]

Most helpful darn forum ever. Thanks y'all! :smallsmile:

[mobdrazhar]

what you could do is that the PC's were hired by the Lady to find him as she doesn't have the time to deal with it herself, however it is enough of a distraction that she can't sit by without anyone atleast calling in a "cleaning crew"

[afroakuma]

The scenario you describe would not ping on the Lady's radar at all, since destroying the whole mortal population of Sigil would keep it rather nicely neutral.

However, if the process to do so would severely harm the city, the dabus (as already noted) or Sigil's place in the cosmology, the Lady would maze her without thinking twice. Trying to make the city into a battlefield of any sort (between law/chaos, for instance) would also end badly for her.

Wondering why the bad mortal would take such a risk, though, since from an in-character perspective it would seem enough to get you mazed.

For the record: Vecna was a special case. His followers are no more of a threat to the Lady than an ant is to a Gundam.

[Jergmo]

If we go by Planescape: Torment, the BBEG will be tossed into one of the Lady's Mazes for running around causing havoc and killing/annihilating people's souls. Which could actually be an interesting deal. Perhaps the BBEG finds the exit to the Maze, but then sets up a portal key to access the Maze at will...leaving the challenge of finding the Maze!

Although that might be a bit too intensive for a one shot. :smalltongue:

[Khellendross]

Well if you read into the Lady of Pain there are a few others with her power level and Vecna got help from one of them to gain the ability to get into Sigil and not have the lady of pain smack him out. If it wasn't for a group of adventurers who ran him out he would have gained the power to be the only Diety there was by altering reality to be the only one or something like that so the Lady of Pain isn't all powerful. It could be that this new BBEG also has the help of one of these other powers.

[holywhippet]

what you could do is that the PC's were hired by the Lady to find him as she doesn't have the time to deal with it herself, however it is enough of a distraction that she can't sit by without anyone atleast calling in a "cleaning crew"

Can't happen really. The Lady speaks to nobody, not even her servants. The only way you know if you've attracted her attention is if she either mazes you or annihilates you.

Possibly one of the higher ups in Sigil may have recruited the party though.

[arguskos]

Or one of the Dabus recruits you. That is possible, you know. They speak (well, pictograph anyways).

[afroakuma]

Well if you read into the Lady of Pain there are a few others with her power level

Possibly.


and Vecna got help from one of them to gain the ability to get into Sigil and not have the lady of pain smack him out.

Not entirely accurate; the help he got was in preparing a spell to become a full deity.


If it wasn't for a group of adventurers who ran him out he would have gained the power to be the only Diety there was by altering reality to be the only one or something like that so the Lady of Pain isn't all powerful.

The Lady was noted in that adventure as being able to take him out without effort, save that unleashing her power to do so would rupture the multiverse. So in effect, she is in fact all-powerful, just too all-powerful for her own good. As it is, the second Vecna's grip was weakened even slightly, she chucked him out.

[Protecar]

The Lady was noted in that adventure as being able to take him out without effort, save that unleashing her power to do so would rupture the multiverse. So in effect, she is in fact all-powerful, just too all-powerful for her own good. As it is, the second Vecna's grip was weakened even slightly, she chucked him out.

I just had to quote this due to its awesomeness. Ever since I first hear of this Lady of Pain I have been a big fan. So. Totally. Awesome

LoP = WiN

At the OP: I agree that the Lady would take little interest unless the already mentioned conditions were met(dabus, city, etc.)

[afroakuma]

In the supercampaign I'm running at the moment, the Lady took personal interest only when the Far Realm ruptured into the city, spilling out an uvuudaum with an urgent message to be broadcast across the entire Great Wheel.

So yeah; it sort of needs to be really relevant. :smallcool:

[arguskos]

In the supercampaign I'm running at the moment, the Lady took personal interest only when the Far Realm ruptured into the city, spilling out an uvuudaum with an urgent message to be broadcast across the entire Great Wheel.

So yeah; it sort of needs to be really relevant. :smallcool:
Protip: we're reading this thread, and that wasn't actually that clear. That the uvuudaum was the one with the message wasn't the clearest thing ever. :smallwink:

[Khellendross]

Possibly.



Not entirely accurate; the help he got was in preparing a spell to become a full deity.



The Lady was noted in that adventure as being able to take him out without effort, save that unleashing her power to do so would rupture the multiverse. So in effect, she is in fact all-powerful, just too all-powerful for her own good. As it is, the second Vecna's grip was weakened even slightly, she chucked him out.

It is mentioned that there are others of her power level. So she isn't all-powerful on such a scale no one can match her. I may have been wrong on the tiny details since it's been awhile since I read the Vecna thing but a good way for this BBEG is to have one of these other powers help him get in just like Vecna got help getting in.


Yeah Venca was helped out by an entity called the Serpent. The Serpent, an entity of godlike power believed to be the personification of arcane magic. The Serpent is said to be a member of a group of unfathomably old entities known as the Ancient Brethren, which though similar to gods, are not exactly gods, though some beings honor them as such. The Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, and Jazirian are also sometimes said to belong, or to have once belonged to this group, and supposedly Vecna is a descendant of the Ancient Brethren. There may also be a connection between the Ancient Brethren and the draedens and baernoloths born before the multiverse began.

[afroakuma]

Protip: we're reading this thread, and that wasn't actually that clear.

Protip: I'm aware.

And evidently you didn't notice the runes carved into its flesh,


the bleeding, foreign glyphs lacerating its aberrant form

which, you know, I mentioned, so you're still technically in the dark. Did she read the thing, or speak with it?

And of course, all of the above ignores the fact that I am a legendary deceiver who is also known for taking shortcuts when describing things for the benefit of the local audience.

You've learned/gained nothing. :smallamused: Except some more modrons.


It is mentioned that there are others of her power level.

To be clear, it is mentioned that she may have once been part of a group of similarly (but not necessarily equally) powered beings.


So she isn't all-powerful on such a scale no one can match her.

She can currently unravel the multiverse just by changing hats. The Serpent (the entity you are referring to) needs to work through a wrinkly maimed dead man.


I may have been wrong on the tiny details since it's been awhile since I read the Vecna thing but a good way for this BBEG is to have one of these other powers help him get in just like Vecna got help getting in.

At the end of that adventure the Lady locked that backdoor for good. Unless the BBEG is also a god and can sneak in with a new route, the Lady can chuck her out without a moment's thought.

[Khellendross]

Protip: I'm aware.

And evidently you didn't notice the runes carved into its flesh, which, you know, I mentioned, so you're still technically in the dark. Did she read the thing, or speak with it?



To be clear, it is mentioned that she may have once been part of a group of similarly (but not necessarily equally) powered beings.



She can currently unravel the multiverse just by changing hats. The Serpent (the entity you are referring to) needs to work through a wrinkly maimed dead man.



At the end of that adventure the Lady locked that backdoor for good. Unless the BBEG is also a god and can sneak in with a new route, the Lady can chuck her out without a moment's thought.

Well that is all speculation. There is no saying the Serpent isn't as strong it's just he chose to work through Vecna because some powers like to puppeteer others. No one knows that she could do that for sure since Vecna almost came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims which would have included the lady of pain....maybe. She is def a power house tho and not someone to take likely since it does take another powerhouse just to step on her front door step.

I don't know for sure since I've never read those books or played through it. I'm just going off wiki info which of course can be wrong. Not everything you read off the internet is right but not everyone says on here is right either. I'll just have to get the books sometime so I can have personal first hand knowledge someday.

[FoE]

Here's a thought: maybe the PCs want to stop the BBEG before it gets to the point where the Lady of Pain intervenes.

She can be somewhat non-discriminating in dealing out flayings and sending people into Mazes.

[arguskos]

Protip: I'm aware.

And evidently you didn't notice the runes carved into its flesh, which, you know, I mentioned, so you're still technically in the dark. Did she read the thing, or speak with it?
No, I did notice them. Still, it feels like you're giving away something for free. Such always bugs me, as there's no such thing as a free lunch. :smalltongue:


And of course, all of the above ignores the fact that I am a legendary deceiver who is also known for taking shortcuts when describing things for the benefit of the local audience.

You've learned/gained nothing. :smallamused: Except some more modrons.
"You're a low down dirty deceiving... deceiver!"
"That sound good to you, Zoe?"
"Had a sort of poetry to it, sir."

Also, modrons. :smallsigh: I swear to god, I'm buying a scroll of chaos hammer ASAP.

[afroakuma]

Well that is all speculation.

I've got Die, Vecna, Die! open in front of me right now.


No one knows that she could do that for sure since Vecna almost came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims which would have included the lady of pain....maybe.

It is stipulated in the text of the adventure that she could switch into her true form and take him on with ease, but that to do so would destroy the multiverse.

It is also stipulated that she'll never let him win, because she sends in extra demigods to go kill him rather than let him break the multiverse.

As to the powers of the Serpent involved, the only role the Serpent plays in the adventure is supplying ancient words of magic to Vecna to create the spell he needs to steal Iuz' divinity and break out of Ravenloft.

[olentu]

I've got Die, Vecna, Die! open in front of me right now.



It is stipulated in the text of the adventure that she could switch into her true form and take him on with ease, but that to do so would destroy the multiverse.

It is also stipulated that she'll never let him win, because she sends in extra demigods to go kill him rather than let him break the multiverse.

As to the powers of the Serpent involved, the only role the Serpent plays in the adventure is supplying ancient words of magic to Vecna to create the spell he needs to steal Iuz' divinity and break out of Ravenloft.

Eh I do not recall that the demigods gambit was a sure thing as opposed to just another shot. Though I suppose that you have the book out and if it says that the demigods always kill vecna with no chance of failure that is what it says.

[pingcode20]

Would that be the Lady Of Pun hypothesis? :smallamused:

You know, that would explain so much about her ineffable power to destroy anything up to and including the multiverse. The blades are just a fashion accessory, getting caught in her shadow does nothing.

When she kills you, she just tells you a pun. A pun so horrible, so irredeemably bad, that nothing further is needed to end you - you simply die.

[afroakuma]

Eh I do not recall that the demigods gambit was a sure thing

That it was not, largely because if it had to happen, it was suggested that the players be given the demigods to roleplay. Still, 5-on-1 odds...

[Optimystik]

You know, that would explain so much about her ineffable power to destroy anything up to and including the multiverse. The blades are just a fashion accessory, getting caught in her shadow does nothing.

When she kills you, she just tells you a pun. A pun so horrible, so irredeemably bad, that nothing further is needed to end you - you simply die.

So... she opens a planar breach to Xanth? :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I've always preferred the Lady as not confirmed as all-powerful. I was pretty annoyed whenever I saw someone write a "statblock" for the Lady which mostly consisted of "This stat: infinite, this ability: yes she can".

Why? Because we don't know if the Lady has an infinite jump check. Perhaps she does not have a single rank in Knowledge: local and sometimes gets lost in her own city. Who could tell? Perhaps her land speed is 10 feet. Perhaps she has a dexterity of only 6. Perhaps it's also 38. We just don't know, and I prefer it that way.

[Parra]

I've got Die, Vecna, Die! open in front of me right now.


Bypassing wards set by a power equal to the Serpent, Vecna the Divine arrives in Sigil despite the ban against gods.

Whilst I dislike the idea, it seem plain that the Serpant is equal in power to the Lady

[Morph Bark]

The Lady was noted in that adventure as being able to take him out without effort, save that unleashing her power to do so would rupture the multiverse. So in effect, she is in fact all-powerful, just too all-powerful for her own good. As it is, the second Vecna's grip was weakened even slightly, she chucked him out.

So the Lady of Pain is actually just a big Jerk Sue.

[Tiki Snakes]

So the Lady of Pain is actually just a big Jerk Sue.

Or three levitating squirrels in a cape with a Rod of Flaying, I believe. :smallwink:

I've never caught reference to the idea of The Lady of SuePain having a 'True Form', before, however. This is intruiging.

[Drascin]

So the Lady of Pain is actually just a big Jerk Sue.

A Sue, maybe, though I would disagree. Jerk, heck no :smalltongue:. I mean, anyone in her position, with a city full of squabbling demons and angels and people trying to take her place for good and kidsgods always trying to get into her goddamn lawn, I'm kind of surprised the flayings aren't a lot more frequent :smallbiggrin:.

[afroakuma]

Whilst I dislike the idea, it seem plain that the Serpant is equal in power to the Lady

That relies upon the Serpent even existing, which, as has been noted, may not even be true. It has been suggested (and implied) more than once that the Serpent is just the face Vecna gives his own mad, megalomaniacal urgings.

Or it may be an identity assumed by Asmodeus.

Myself, I don't believe that Mok'slyk the Serpent is the equal of the Lady.

[Parra]

Myself, I don't believe that Mok'slyk the Serpent is the equal of the Lady.

Oh I agree with you.

At the very least IF they are equals, the Lady has the home field advantage and therefore the upperhand