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molten_dragon
2010-07-02, 07:32 AM
I'm wanting to create a nasty recurring villain for my players to face in a campaign I'm running, and I'm considering making him gestalt so he's a little tougher for them. Any idea how that would change his CR?

PId6
2010-07-02, 07:50 AM
It really depends on the classes involved. If the classes are extremely synergetic (Factotum//Wizard, for example), then the CR might go up +2 or +3. If the classes are at odds with each other (Barbarian//Warmage, for example), the CR might not change at all. Context is key.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-02, 07:55 AM
I agree with the analysis of PId6, but not with the CR increase.

Saves are better (say, more likely to have 3 good saves) but not higher (like an higher level NPC).

HP, and exspecially HD, don't increase that much.

I'd go for a +1/+2 increase at max.

Morph Bark
2010-07-02, 08:02 AM
Same as Kaiyan, except in cases of two synergized full casting classes.

Captain Obvious to the rescue!

PId6
2010-07-02, 08:02 AM
I agree with the analysis of PId6, but not with the CR increase.

I'd go for a +1/+2 increase at max.
It depends on if Cunning Surge is gained, but I'd rate extra standard actions plus benefits as worthy of +3. A wizard by himself is scary. A wizard with Int to initiative so as to be guaranteed to go first and at least three standard actions that first round is much much scarier.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-02, 08:15 AM
It depends on if Cunning Surge is gained, but I'd rate extra standard actions plus benefits as worthy of +3. A wizard by himself is scary. A wizard with Int to initiative so as to be guaranteed to go first and at least three standard actions that first round is much much scarier.

Fair enough - we should introduce the level of optimization on the evalutation of CR.

Translation: molten_dragon, do you have specific builds in mind?

molten_dragon
2010-07-02, 12:17 PM
Fair enough - we should introduce the level of optimization on the evalutation of CR.

Translation: molten_dragon, do you have specific builds in mind?

Yes, he's going to be a Druid 6 // Swordsage 2 / Warblade 4.

PId6
2010-07-02, 05:21 PM
Yes, he's going to be a Druid 6 // Swordsage 2 / Warblade 4.
Hmm, I would probably rate that as a CR +1. Swordsage AC bonus is pretty good, while Warblade maneuvers are really strong. Still, the bulk of his power is and will always be from Druid. CR +1 seems about right.

Another_Poet
2010-07-02, 07:35 PM
Fair enough - we should introduce the level of optimization on the evalutation of CR.

Except we don't need to, because in most cases (most, not all) the DM knows his/her PCs and will use a similar level of optimization to that used by the players. In cases where the DM optimizes way more or less than the PCs, that is usually noted in the post (in fact it is usually complained about by the OP).

For example: if a Core wizard/druid Gestalt facing single-classed core characters of level x is CR x+2, then an optimized Cunning Surge/Improved Init wizard/archivist facing optimized characters of level x is... wait for it.... still CR x+2.

Runestar
2010-07-02, 10:55 PM
Except we don't need to, because in most cases (most, not all) the DM knows his/her PCs and will use a similar level of optimization to that used by the players.

I think we need to look at their benefits in the context of the 5 rounds or less they are expected to last against the party.

For example, a wizard//psion likely won't warrant a boost in cr at all, since your limited number of actions is still your bottleneck (nullifying the sheer number of 9th lv spells and powers you get).

A Barb//fighter gestalt likely won't result in a cr increase either. This may sound odd, because bonus feats seem like they would complement a barb's combat prowess very well. Bear in mind however that the barb and fighter's key strengths are fairly front loaded (fighter2 gets 2 bonus feats, barb2 grants pounce, rage and uncanny dodge or improved trip). So a gestalt barb4//fighter4 isn't really any much stronger than a normal barb2/fighter2.

Even in cases like the factotum, you have to compare it with the next best alternative. A choker cleric4 is cr5 (using non-associated class rules), and gets the same dual-action benefit. So a factotum/wizard gestalt may warrant only a +1cr at most, since he doesn't get the benefit of additional racial HD/stat mods. While he has a glut of abilities, these aren't too useful during the 4-5 rounds of combat with the PCs. +2cr implies he is just as good as 2 wizards (which may not be the case, because he doesn't get extra swift actions).

Personally, I don't think gestalt npcs make hardy villians, because they don't get more HD (and hp). You want staying power, select a base creature with a lot of racial HD and good con for its cr, then tack on spellcasting classes in tandem with the non-associated class rules in the MM.

For example, a frost giant wiz15 is cr17 and has 300+ hp, and so can soak up whatever the PCs throw at him. Compare to a wiz15 lich (same cr17) who has just a paltry 120+hp (~1/3). :smallsmile:

The upside is that you have less abilities to keep track of, as giant just gives physical stat boosts, letting you concentrate entirely on your wizard side when planning your tactics.

PId6
2010-07-02, 11:35 PM
For example, a wizard//psion likely won't warrant a boost in cr at all, since your limited number of actions is still your bottleneck (nullifying the sheer number of 9th lv spells and powers you get).
It depends. Schism allows action economy abuse, while Overchannel + Quicken Power lets the psion side nova without reducing the number of highest-level wizard spells you can cast. You can also use one side to prebuff while using the other side for combat abilities.


Even in cases like the factotum, you have to compare it with the next best alternative. A choker cleric4 is cr5 (using non-associated class rules), and gets the same dual-action benefit.
I don't think Choker + non-associated cheese is a good comparison point; they don't even advance by character class by default.


Personally, I don't think gestalt npcs make hardy villians, because they don't get more HD (and hp). You want staying power, select a base creature with a lot of racial HD and good con for its cr, then tack on spellcasting classes in tandem with the non-associated class rules in the MM.
Yes, you can do some ridiculous things with the non-associated rules, because they're poorly thought out and easily breakable. They're also bad comparison points for that very reason. You really shouldn't be cheesing those rules unless your players are extremely high-op and cheesy in their own right.

Runestar
2010-07-03, 12:15 AM
Yes, you can do some ridiculous things with the non-associated rules, because they're poorly thought out and easily breakable. They're also bad comparison points for that very reason. You really shouldn't be cheesing those rules unless your players are extremely high-op and cheesy in their own right.

There is also the oft-neglected reason that classed npcs tend to be woefully weak for their cr. If we agree that a fighter20 is too weak to be cr20 (compared to a tarrasque or appropriately-cr'ed dragon), then it would be even more erroneous to argue that a barb20/fighter20 is cr21, because your base is already inaccurate to start with.

If we go with the assumption that a creature of +2cr is expected to be as challenging as 2 creatures of the unmodified cr, then I feel that aggressive optimization of your enemies (including the aggressive use of non-associated class lvs) is the only way to make them worthy of their cr. The other alternative is to simply re-evaluate their cr independently of established guidelines, but again, you are basically just comparing their stats against existing monsters.

For example, it would be utter rubbish to presume that a lich wiz15 would be comparable to 2 wiz15s. But a frost giant wiz15 would be comparable to 2 wiz15s, IMO. What it lacks in actions, it compensates in terms of fortitude and staying power, ensuring that it lasts long enough to give your players that climatic combat encounter they so deserve. :smallsmile:

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-03, 12:15 PM
Except we don't need to, because in most cases (most, not all) the DM knows his/her PCs and will use a similar level of optimization to that used by the players. In cases where the DM optimizes way more or less than the PCs, that is usually noted in the post (in fact it is usually complained about by the OP).

For example: if a Core wizard/druid Gestalt facing single-classed core characters of level x is CR x+2, then an optimized Cunning Surge/Improved Init wizard/archivist facing optimized characters of level x is... wait for it.... still CR x+2.

I see your point. But.. what you suggest about the increase?

X+2?