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EthanRayne
2010-07-02, 07:24 PM
So in D&D, intentions matter a lot in determining whether one is good or neutral.

What if you're born a sociopath and delight in the suffering of others, love tormenting others, and think killing sprees are totally rad but really want to end up in Celestia or one of the other good afterlives? You're not ambitious enough to work your way up from lemure to archfiend, you just want a nice happy eternity and so you're willing to give up the fun of your mortal lifespan.

If you devote your life to petting puppies, founding orphanages, and tending to the ill, will you be able to sneak into Celestia? Or will your intentions screw you over and land you in the Outlands or in the Abyss?

snoopy13a
2010-07-02, 07:28 PM
A sociopath is just a person without any guilty feelings and a lack of empathy for others. Theorectically, it is quite possible for such a person to lead an upstanding life. Essentially, they have no impulse to do good but make a logically reasoned choice to good.

Morph Bark
2010-07-02, 07:30 PM
Alignment-sneaking is one ability that I haven't ever seen. I could see a sociopath behaving in certain ways ending up as Chaotic Good, but Lawful is highly doubtful.

Frankly, your sociopath can't walk the social path enough to end up on the celestial path and enjoy a heavenly time.

Boci
2010-07-02, 07:31 PM
Pet peeve: AFAIK, sociopath lack empathy, are very manipulative and have little respect for the law. They are not psycotic murders.

Personally, yes, I would rule that someone who supressed their evil urges all their life could go into celestia. They would be seen as a champion of restraint, proving that no one is doomed from birth to commit evil acts.

Crow
2010-07-02, 07:34 PM
A true sociopath would probably be plenty happy in the afterlife to which he's best suited.

In the D&D cosmology, there is no real "bad" afterlife. People go to where they belong, and once there, seem to enjoy it.

Morph Bark
2010-07-02, 07:34 PM
Pet peeve: AFAIK, sociopath lack empathy, are very manipulative and have little respect for the law. They are not psycotic murders.

Which is why I myself first checked with a definition of sociopath. I knew sociopath =/= psychopath, but the two often go hand-in-hand. A psychopath is definitely evil, a sociopath is more likely at least just chaotic.

That is what I gathered at least. "Little respect for the law" and "can't hold on to a steady job" were frequently mentioned. Seems un-Lawful.

Ranos
2010-07-02, 08:00 PM
A true sociopath would probably be plenty happy in the afterlife to which he's best suited.

In the D&D cosmology, there is no real "bad" afterlife. People go to where they belong, and once there, seem to enjoy it.

I don't know which cosmology you've been reading, but Baator is NOT a pleasant place for petitionners. All you'll get there is a few centuries of agonizing torture until you are destroyed to create a lesser devil.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-02, 08:03 PM
I don't know which cosmology you've been reading, but Baator is NOT a pleasant place for petitionners. All you'll get there is a few centuries of agonizing torture until you are destroyed to create a lesser devil.

Yeah, people think just because their alignments match their new homes they'd live happy lives. It doesn't work like that. With the evil ones, specifically, one is only happy if one manages to reach the top of the heap. Otherwise one's just fodder.

ZeroNumerous
2010-07-02, 08:07 PM
That is what I gathered at least. "Little respect for the law" and "can't hold on to a steady job" were frequently mentioned. Seems un-Lawful.

Lawful is not just adherence to authority figures.

Chaotic is not just rebellion against authority figures.

Someone who is lawful is dependable, trustworthy and keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it.

Someone who is chaotic is free-spirited, alters his/her decisions based on what is happening now and can only be trusted to act in specific ways(based on his/her Good/Evil alignment) rather than act on a given word.

Lawful/Chaotic individuals can adhere to or break the law dependent on how beneficial it is at the time.

Boci
2010-07-02, 08:12 PM
Someone who is lawful is dependable, trustworthy and keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it.

For a sociopath:

Dependanble: Yes. If you known them well enough and can comprehend their logical thinking style, they are unlikely to do anything that will suprise you too much.

Trustworthy: Yes and no. Certainly not in the "I owe a friend a favour" way, but quite possibly in the "I want you to owe me a favour" way.

Keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it: Not really, especially not if there was little or no chance others would find out they broke their word.

ZeroNumerous
2010-07-02, 08:22 PM
Keeps his or her word even if it would be more convenient to break it: Not really, especially not if there was little or no chance others would find out they broke their word.

I think you're being a bit harsh there, as anyone who discovers that our hypothetical sociopath has broken his hypothetical word will cease to trust him. As such, it is logically better to maintain the illusion of trustworthiness than to have it removed if he desires cooperation from those he wishes to appear trusthworthy to.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-02, 08:28 PM
I think you're being a bit harsh there, as anyone who discovers that our hypothetical sociopath has broken his hypothetical word will cease to trust him. As such, it is logically better to maintain the illusion of trustworthiness than to have it removed if he desires cooperation from those he wishes to appear trusthworthy to.
I do believe that would fit under "convenient to keep"

Crow
2010-07-02, 08:32 PM
Yeah, people think just because their alignments match their new homes they'd live happy lives. It doesn't work like that. With the evil ones, specifically, one is only happy if one manages to reach the top of the heap. Otherwise one's just fodder.

It's the maneuvering to get to the top of that heap that makes those individuals feel at home. Some people relish that struggle, and the opportunity to inflict more pain on others in that struggle grants them fulfillment.

Boci
2010-07-02, 08:35 PM
It's the maneuvering to get to the top of that heap that makes those individuals feel at home. Some people relish that struggle, and the opportunity to inflict more pain on others in that struggle grants them fulfillment.

I think you will find a staggering majority view the couple of centaries of torture and the overwhelping odds of failure to really dent their enjoyment of the proccess however.

HamHam
2010-07-02, 08:35 PM
Someone who acts Lawful Good is Lawful Good, regardless of what may be happening internally, by and large. Especially if they are actively trying to follow a Lawful Good path, and not just following the law and such because they don't want to get in trouble.

Math_Mage
2010-07-02, 08:41 PM
Sociopaths are not generally concerned with such long-term self-control. Clearly someone without empathy may still conduct their affairs according to enlightened self-interest; but in that case, would we describe the person as a sociopath? After all, the typical sociopath is not only less concerned with other people, but less concerned with the consequences of his actions. It is not inconceivable for such a person to lead a 'good' life through inertia; but to actively strive for a good afterlife through responsible behavior in this one?

Boci
2010-07-02, 08:46 PM
Sociopaths are not generally concerned with such long-term self-control. Clearly someone without empathy may still conduct their affairs according to enlightened self-interest; but in that case, would we describe the person as a sociopath? After all, the typical sociopath is not only less concerned with other people, but less concerned with the consequences of his actions. It is not inconceivable for such a person to lead a 'good' life through inertia; but to actively strive for a good afterlife through responsible behavior in this one?

It logical, especially since afterlife last a lot longer than material plane life.

fryplink
2010-07-02, 08:56 PM
I think it wouldn't be "sneaking in" as much as Celestia applauding his entry with fanfare, as he fought his instincts to achieve good, (the fact that the good was for the sole entry into the afterlife doesn't matter, because he was trying to be good)

WinWin
2010-07-02, 09:06 PM
A Judge Dredd style Grey Guard might be considered sociopathic. Especially if they were focused on the greater good and considered individuals an unimportant consideration. Not a strict interpretation of the term sociopathy...But D&D is a game about killing stuff to become more powerful, after all. Real world definitions don't quite fit.

Grumman
2010-07-02, 09:11 PM
The character would definitely be Lawful, as they're going out of their way to follow a set of self-imposed rules instead of just going with whatever comes naturally.

I'd say they would be allowed in. They would never be granted the power to become a Paladin or a Cleric, but they could definitely be given the good ending.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-02, 11:27 PM
Now, how about this one:

A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

Math_Mage
2010-07-02, 11:40 PM
It logical, especially since afterlife last a lot longer than material plane life.

Unfortunately, that sort of logic is what sociopaths seem to be especially weak on. Psychopathy isn't a trade of logical ability for empathy.

(Of course, that could be sampling bias--if someone lacks empathy, but behaves out of rational self-interest, how would we identify them as a sociopath? But then, that's exactly the problem I'm pointing out. Sociopaths are defined not only by a personal quality, but also by a behavior pattern.)

EDIT:

Now, how about this one:

A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

The good afterlife, neh? Consider the attitude expressed in Miko's final moments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). Yes, I know I'm opening a huge can of worms there.

Grumman
2010-07-03, 12:25 AM
A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?
The Helm of Opposite Alignment is an utterly moronic creation, but I'd say he gets no credit for good acts he was magically compelled to perform unless his un-altered personality would have learnt from the experience had the curse been lifted.

Harperfan7
2010-07-03, 03:38 AM
I think you mean psychopath, not sociopath. Psychopaths are literally born evil, they can't change. A sociopath is more environmental, they become sociopaths.

Regardless, I doubt there are psychopaths in D&D worlds, because no one, not even half-fiends, are born evil.

Anyways, can an evil person get into an upper plane solely because they don't want to burn for eternity (by doing good things and/or not doing bad things)?

I would say yes, heaven is supposed to be a reward even if you don't really have the heart of a good person. They probably wouldn't get the full package of heavenly splendor, but they get coach at least (and even coach in the upper planes kicks a lot of ass).

Math_Mage
2010-07-03, 03:48 AM
I think you mean psychopath, not sociopath. Psychopaths are literally born evil, they can't change. A sociopath is more environmental, they become sociopaths.

All the more reason to question how one can be classified as a sociopath while systematically avoiding sociopathic behavior for the sake of a Good afterlife.

Morph Bark
2010-07-03, 04:01 AM
Someone who acts Lawful Good is Lawful Good, regardless of what may be happening internally, by and large. Especially if they are actively trying to follow a Lawful Good path, and not just following the law and such because they don't want to get in trouble.

I think you are contradicting yourself here. First you say it depends on your actions, not your intentions (= "what may be happening internally"). Then you talk about that it matters why they are following the law, so it does depend on something internally?

Yora
2010-07-03, 05:18 AM
Most religions seem to claim, that the dead are judged by their deeds in life. Our current concept of justice may be a bit different, but I don't know about any pre-modern religion where the dead were judged by the purity of their souls.

Rothen
2010-07-03, 05:27 AM
All the more reason to question how one can be classified as a sociopath while systematically avoiding sociopathic behavior for the sake of a Good afterlife.

This.

Sure, you can argue that a sociopath can have enough control to not act like a sociopath. But then again, isn't that guy just a regular person then?

Like all of out discussions, this just breaks down to semantics. Define 'sociopath'.

Ingus
2010-07-03, 07:48 AM
I think it depends on how do you see alignment on D&D.
Providing you're thinking that a sociopath is at least CN, or CE, the difference in the outcome is how do you see alignment in D&D.
If you think it is a mark, like RAW suggests, in the afterlife there would be a divine judge (or a bunch of divinities) picking up souls.
"Epic, Divine, Salient Detect Alignment" and then "CG to Arvandor, LG to Celestia, CE to the Abyss, LN to mechanus..."
"Hey, well... I may be CE, but I always behave as a good boy!"
"Go to Abyss and shut up, evil bastard!"

If you see it more like a final judgement on lives, it would be more complicated. And, although difficult, a sociopath can go to heavens (say, by the enlightned guide of a charismatic paladin)

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 07:56 AM
A Chaotic-Evil drow gets hit with the effects of a Helm of Opposite Alignment (and a Belt of Genre Gender-Changing, but that's beside the point) a few days before he is killed, and did everything he could to atone for his misdeeds in the short time he had left. In fact, he died saving orphans from a burning-puppy farm. Where does his soul go?

Going by FC2, he'd get reborn as a hellbred- if you have a massive taint of evil acts, but for some reason (not necessarily requiring the Helm) you're genuinely repentant and trying to atone when you die- you qualify .

Thus getting to ignore the "a lawful character who dies with a Corruption of 9, goes to Baator no matter how much good he did in life" clause.

If you're not using FC2, it may depend on the DM.

Manual of the Planes has a CE wizard, who Celestia has admitted in, because he genuinely wishes to reform, even though he "retains many of the attitudes of his former lifestyle"

He is, however, still alive at the time- so where his soul will go when he dies depends on how much he's reformed.


I think you mean psychopath, not sociopath. Psychopaths are literally born evil, they can't change. A sociopath is more environmental, they become sociopaths.

Regardless, I doubt there are psychopaths in D&D worlds, because no one, not even half-fiends, are born evil.

Actually, quite a lot of creatures are "born evil" (half fiends, chromatic dragons, etc) since the MM states that Always X Evil creatures are born with the listed alignment.

However, they can change- there are nonevil half-fiends out there, and a few nonevil chromatic dragons.

Morph Bark
2010-07-03, 08:59 AM
Actually, quite a lot of creatures are "born evil" (half fiends, chromatic dragons, etc) since the MM states that Always X Evil creatures are born with the listed alignment.

However, they can change- there are nonevil half-fiends out there, and a few nonevil chromatic dragons.

It can be argued though that these creatures aren't "born evil" (it is never said they are, in fact) but that in the society they grow up in Evil is the standard, and for some there are driving instincts that are inherently Evil. Half-Fiends would find this easy enough to throw off I'd think, since they are only half inherently Evil, but they'd still probably have some of the instincts to do Evil from their fiendish parent (I haven't thoroughly read the Fiendish Codexes or the Book of Vile Deeds, so it might be possible that in those books this is explicitly stated, but otherwise this isn't explicitly stated either).

Psychopaths though, that's something from their very nature, a mental condition. A lot of fiends might actually not qualify as psychopaths (depending on the definition), even though they are Evil. Still though, a psychopath amongst the sapient living of the Material Plane would no doubt qualify as Evil, whether they can help it or not.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 09:08 AM
I'm not sure if "psychopath" and "sociopath" are distinct in modern psychology.

The D&D version of "psychopath" in BoVD certainly qualifies as Evil-

"someone who derives pleasure from- and in fact can become addicted to- killing. Such psychopaths slay for the sheer joy of it and to experience the power-mad rush that accompanies the taking of another's life. Psychopaths who enjoy watching others beg for mercy are often sadists, and this type enjoys inflicting pain before killing a victim. The type of psychopath who simply enjoys the feeling of ending a life is interested only in death, and cries of mercy or pain only annoy him."

Page 305 of the MM explicitly states for Always X alignment:

"The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions"

So a newborn half-fiend, erinyes devil, chromatic dragon, etc will ping as Evil, even though only the devil has the Evil subtype. However- they can change. (FC2 is the source that states that, uniquely, erinyes devils reproduce with each other, producing baby erinyes devils).

Morph Bark
2010-07-03, 09:14 AM
I'm not sure if "psychopath" and "sociopath" are distinct in modern psychology.

They are. Sociopaths may have trouble functioning in society, but they can. Psychopaths are... rather like you just quoted in that description.


So a newborn half-fiend, erinyes devil, chromatic dragon, etc will ping as Evil, even though only the devil has the Evil subtype. However- they can change.

Yes, hence why I explained it through instincts and the like. Humans may sometimes get the instinct to run away or harm someone else, but that isn't always a very good thing to do in modern-day society and it may be more productive to not give in to your instincts -- which may cause an otherwise evil creature to do just that.

I guess the intruiging part is where you have a half-fiend version of an "always good" creature or a half-celestial version of an "always evil" creature.

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 09:21 AM
As written, the templates can't be applied, since it says in the half-fiend template "Can be applied to any nongood creature" and in half-celestial "Can be applied to any nonevil creature"

However- WotC wrote an article emphasing that it was just rules mechanics that prevented it- and that it can be overridden:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060407a

So- if you're prepared to ignore that line, you can have a half-fiend celestial or vice versa.

A person who is addicted to killing- but at the same time has compassion for others, especially innocents, and feeds his addiction by only killing people in battle, who he's certain deserve it, would be odd- but such a person (maybe the D&D equivalent of Dexter in personality?) might be able to avoid committing evil acts-

since the fact that he's getting pleasure from killing does not affect the fact that he, unlike Dexter, has been "authorized to kill" so to speak.

HamHam
2010-07-03, 10:31 AM
I think you are contradicting yourself here. First you say it depends on your actions, not your intentions (= "what may be happening internally"). Then you talk about that it matters why they are following the law, so it does depend on something internally?

Welcome to the wonderful world of DnD alignment.

2xMachina
2010-07-03, 10:42 AM
Half-X does not change the Allignment to auto-X right?

We could have a Half-Fiend and a Half Celestial make a Half-Fiend/Half Celestial.

Lord Raziere
2010-07-03, 11:15 AM
can a sociopath work his way into celestia?

apparently.

lawful good adventurers do it all the time.

Morph Bark
2010-07-03, 11:21 AM
Welcome to the wonderful world of DnD alignment.

Welcome to the wonderful world of not-getting-your-questions-answered. But okay.


can a sociopath work his way into celestia?

apparently.

lawful good adventurers do it all the time.

Do you mean to say all adventurers are sociopaths by default? :smallconfused:

jpreem
2010-07-03, 11:22 AM
can a sociopath work his way into celestia?

apparently.

lawful good adventurers do it all the time.

A ++:smallbiggrin:

Math_Mage
2010-07-03, 11:25 AM
They are. Sociopaths may have trouble functioning in society, but they can. Psychopaths are... rather like you just quoted in that description.


I'm not sure you can make that claim so strongly. Part of the problem trying to put together a coherent distinction between the two terms is that the experts aren't sure what the difference is--or even if they are difference. There's a 'nature vs. nurture' debate, and everyone's hesitant to put your average antisocial personality in a category with Ted Bundy. But the distinction is certainly not between "your uncle who lives alone" and "serial killer". On that point, the BoVD description of psychopathy is rather outrageous, in fact. (But then, the only psychopaths you're likely to encounter in a campaign are the worst ones.)

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 11:27 AM
Half-X does not change the Allignment to auto-X right?

Normally, it does. However, while both half-fiends and half-celestials are Always X alignment, and neither template can (normally) be added to a creature of the opposite respective alignment, if it was possible to add two templates to a creature simultaneously (human in this case), it would work.

Unfortunately, templatess are normally applied in sequence, not simultaneously.

Still, there are always exceptions to Always X alignment.

A nonevil half-fiend, would qualify to have the half-celestial template added to it.

So you could have a human half-fiend half-celestial

(technically 1/2 human, 1/4 fiend, 1/4 celestial, but the rules would call it a "human half-fiend half-celestial")

On "people with a compulsion to kill" in Ed Greenwood's Shadow of the Avatar, one of the Harpers has this problem- that's why he's an adventurer rather than a civilian.

In the book, the character is talking to Storm Silverhand:

Rage burned in Itharr Jathram all the time. Slow and buried deep, but there all the time, like coals glowing under turf for the night. Once in a while- not often, but eventually- that building rage rose and warmed and boiled up . . . and the burly, quiet Harper slew things.
He'd said as much to Storm, that first day at her farm, sitting on two stumps in the forest behind her house.
"Lady," Itharr had told her softly, "you must know this. I'd not be the best citizen in a land at peace. From time to time, I find . . . I must kill."
Storm had merely nodded, sober-eyed, and said as gently, "I can see it in you. Yet know this, Itharr. You are welcome in my house, now and to the end of your days."

Another_Poet
2010-07-03, 01:10 PM
So in D&D, intentions matter a lot in determining whether one is good or neutral.

What if you're born a sociopath and delight in the suffering of others, love tormenting others, and think killing sprees are totally rad but really want to end up in Celestia or one of the other good afterlives? You're not ambitious enough to work your way up from lemure to archfiend, you just want a nice happy eternity and so you're willing to give up the fun of your mortal lifespan.

If you devote your life to petting puppies, founding orphanages, and tending to the ill, will you be able to sneak into Celestia? Or will your intentions screw you over and land you in the Outlands or in the Abyss?

Many sociopaths act completely in line with society's expectations for many years precisely because they become good at impersonating emotions and moral concerns despite not feeling them.

I disagree that intentions matter much for D&D alignment; almost all creatures' alignment reflect their actual behaviour, and not their goals/hopes/culturization.

Thus, by D&D standard a sociopath who spent an entire lifetime imitiating a LG person (by acting LG) can to a LG afterlife.

However most sociopaths commit horrible acts of cruelty when young (torturing animals, etc.) because they don't get that that's "wrong". It's only by learning from others' reactions to this that they learn to imitate normal emotions. So unless the sociopath atoned for these evil deeds at some point during their life, I'd count them as a black mark on their moral behaviour record and send them to the LN afterlife.

Likewise, if the denizens of Celestia (or whoever judges souls at the pearly gates) have reason to believe the sociopath only acted good to get into Celestia, and will pose a threat to the inhabitants of Celestia once admitted, I think they could send him to Limbo instead.

That's my take on it.

ap

hamishspence
2010-07-03, 01:34 PM
There's "acts" and "overall outlook".

The alignment of an act, is partially dependant on intentions.

However the alignment of acts specifically called out as "Evil acts" such as torture, are (going by BoED and FC2) not intention-dependant.

Torturing someone as a punishment to deter other people from committing evil acts, or as a method of getting valuable information to save innocents, doesn't suddenly become Neutral because the character has "good intentions"

BoED does suggest that classically "Good acts" such as helping others, is Neutral rather than good, if the character actually benefits from it, or the good acts don't "cost the character anything"

In effect, it's a "the act must come with some sacrifice- or it's Neutral" perspective.

A sociopathic character who only "helps others" by charitable donations, assisting people in trouble, etc, because they believe they stand to gain by it, is doing Neutral acts rather than Good acts.

As to "overall outlook" a character who has the classic Evil personality traits- no real compassion for others- seeing everyone as tools to their own ends, rather than people in their own right- might qualify as Evil (only just) even though they don't actively commit evil acts. Because their personality is evil. A bit like a newborn chromatic dragon.

This may depend on the DM though- some might insist that no matter how horrible your personality, you can't be actually Evil unless you commit Evil acts.

HamHam
2010-07-03, 04:45 PM
Welcome to the wonderful world of not-getting-your-questions-answered. But okay.

Look, it's not my fault the alignment system appears to contradict itself every other sentence. I just go with it.

afroakuma
2010-07-03, 05:15 PM
My own view on this:

Firstly, Celestia consists of multiple layers. A soul dispatched to Lunia must work its way up to true, pure Lawful Goodness over time, but there is accomodation for a soul with lawful good tendencies to begin at the bottom of the stairs and climb.

However, part of the ideal of Celestia, Elysium or Arborea is the nature and purity of the inhabitants. Therefore, for a sociopath who did good acts and restrained himself for the express purpose of getting to heaven, Celestia may not be the place for him.

Arcadia, however, might be.

But consider: if his self-restraint exists purely to garner what he would feel to be an afterlife of greatest accommodation for him, he may in fact end up in Arborea or even Ysgard: planes of good, owing to the afterlife he aspires to experience and the correlation between the deeds he chooses to get there and the fundamental Upper Planar identification of "Good" (showing that he understands and can appreciate the concept) but also Chaotic, to allow him an afterlife of freedom to be himself in the moral atmosphere he wishes to partake of.

Unless he's from the Realms, in which case he'd better have a god or else WALL'D.