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HMS Invincible
2010-07-03, 02:18 AM
I don't understand why I would want to make someone else attack instead of me doing it. I mean sure, if there is a fighter I want him to spread his mark around and get free combat challenge attacks off of it, but with everyone else, I don't see the point.

I got a party consisting of: Barbarian, Seeker, Druid, and me as a tactical warlord. We also have a npc generic warrior who tanks for us, sorta. Is it the party composition? Who are the best people to give extra attacks?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-07-03, 02:20 AM
I don't understand why I would want to make someone else attack instead of me doing it. I mean sure, if there is a fighter I want him to spread his mark around and get free combat challenge attacks off of it, but with everyone else, I don't see the point.

I got a party consisting of: Barbarian, Seeker, Druid, and me as a tactical warlord. We also have a npc generic warrior who tanks for us, sorta. Is it the party composition? Who are the best people to give extra attacks?

You want to make other people attack for you because they do more damage than you, and you can boost that damage even more. Hitting enemies with strikers can be quite profitable.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-03, 02:33 AM
Commander's Strike is great not only because it can synergize with your teammates' class features (sometimes), but also because it's one of the hardest hitting at-wills around.

Normally, a class's at will is going to do [W] + stat damage.

Commander's Strike adds your int ON TOP OF their melee basic attack, which works out to be

[W] + stat + your Int damage.

If your int modifier was around 4 and you used Commander's Strike to give your barbarian buddy another attack, your Commander's Striker is, on average, going to do 0.5 damage less than his Devastating Strike. Yes, you, a leader, is going to be hitting for only 0.5 damage less on your at-will than him, a striker.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-07-03, 04:24 AM
Don't forget Direct the Strike. Sometimes you just need to finish off someone just out of reach.

I think that (power aside) the neatest part about making others fight for you is that you have the option to stand exactly where you want to while still causing owies to the bad guys. As a leader, I've found that it is really helpful to be able to freely position myself as I let my minions allies do most of my work for me. :smallbiggrin:

Dogmantra
2010-07-03, 05:29 AM
If course, there's also the matter of At-Wills that work as melee basic attacks. There are a few of them, and adding your INT modifier on top of a basic attack is already pretty good. Combined with the effects of an At-Will, it's unarguably better.

Arbitrarity
2010-07-03, 05:31 AM
If course, there's also the matter of At-Wills that work as melee basic attacks. There are a few of them, and adding your INT modifier on top of a basic attack is already pretty good. Combined with the effects of an At-Will, it's unarguably better.

Mmmm, Howling Strike's +1d6. If your barbarian didn't take it, smack him :smallwink:

Also, gives a second shot at bonus damage for strikers like Rogues, if they missed their first attack.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-03, 05:38 AM
Because the barb does way more damage with his attack than you do.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-03, 05:45 AM
Because the barb does way more damage with his attack than you do.

Partially correct.

Actually, it's "Because the barb does way more damage with his attack than you do, and Commander's Strike makes it do more than that."

AB
2010-07-03, 06:11 AM
Also, some classes gain certain positive effects if they hit or kill a target. Rageblood Barbarian, for example, gains CON THP on a kill...

Yuki Akuma
2010-07-03, 06:24 AM
What are you talking about? How are you not attacking?

You're a Warlord. Your teammates may use pieces of metal and wood as weapons, but you use your teammates as weapons.

oxybe
2010-07-03, 07:45 AM
pretty much what yuki said.

the barbarian uses an axe to strike a man dead. a warlord uses a barbarian to strike a man dead.

this is the warlord's mentality. direct the flow of combat and use your allies to their fullest.

you're not just a guy with a sword. you're a guy with the raw destructive axe swings of the barbaric orc. you're a guy with the swift and bloody dagger of the roguish halfling. you're a guy with the graceful and powerful bow of the elven ranger.

by yourself you are but a man. but in a group you're a machine of death. and none of the individual parts are any the wiser.

BobTheDog
2010-07-03, 09:24 AM
This thread reminded me of the halfling warlord in a party with an Avenger, a Barbarian, a Swordmage and a Paladin (plus shooters). He had loads of fun not using his scimitar.

(On top of that, the Avenger was Censure of Unity, so whenever they got to gang up on something, that something got very dead very fast.)

Pyron
2010-07-03, 09:48 AM
You're a Warlord. Your teammates may use pieces of metal and wood as weapons, but you use your teammates as weapons.

This is pretty much it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/04/06/episode-013-the-dramatic-flashback/).

Stompy
2010-07-03, 10:22 AM
I don't understand why I would want to make someone else attack instead of me doing it.

Warlord: Hey barbarian.
Barbarian: grrrr....
Warlord: That kobold in front of you called your mother ugly.
Barbarian: RRARGAHAHAHH! *smashes kobold to death*

Honestly the roleplay from that power makes it very good even without the +INT to damage. :smallsmile:

Susano-wo
2010-07-03, 10:57 AM
Howling strike is only usable as a basic on a charge. Still, yes, my group jokes that Barbarians only get 1 at-will, but they get Howling strike as a class feature :P [and even using Barb's normal melee basic+your INT still isn't *worse* than a striker, which is niice :D)

Coidzor
2010-07-03, 11:09 AM
So you both can fight to an extent just behind defenders by yourself and then with a party you basically use them to fight with.

So you don't necessarily want top initiative, probably just behind the strikers unless they need help positioning then?

Tengu_temp
2010-07-03, 11:13 AM
Do warlords have any powers where their allies attack and not them other than Commander's Strike, anyway? Powers where both attack don't count.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-03, 11:49 AM
Do warlords have any powers where their allies attack and not them other than Commander's Strike, anyway? Powers where both attack don't count.

Yes, several in MP2 and recent Dragon magazines.

Artanis
2010-07-03, 12:38 PM
On a fun little note, Commander's Strike is one of a very, very small number of at-wills that can even pretend to be in the same ballpark as Twin Strike for any real amount of time :smallwink:

HMS Invincible
2010-07-03, 02:31 PM
Hmmm, let me rephrase, who are the best people to grant attacks? I thought making fighters attack is great because of their class features but everyone here says that the idea is to go for maximum damage instead.

So I should ignore my seeker and focus on the barbarian in the party?

huttj509
2010-07-03, 02:39 PM
Hmmm, let me rephrase, who are the best people to grant attacks? I thought making fighters attack is great because of their class features but everyone here says that the idea is to go for maximum damage instead.

So I should ignore my seeker and focus on the barbarian in the party?

Depends on the situation, really. Some fights you may prefer a mark, after all, the fighter gets an attack, and may get another due to a mark. Other fights you just wanna drop the guy, and damage is better. You are the warlord, you know that small scale tactics must be readily adjusted based on current information :-)

Epinephrine
2010-07-03, 02:40 PM
You shouldn't "ignore" anyone, but play it opportunistically. The seeker can have some neat effects tied up with his "basic attacks," the fighter may be well positioned, and the barbarian dishes out damage. If you want everyone to like you, share the love. Might not be optimal, but if the warlord's turn always means the barbarian swings it might get annoying for others - I've encouraged the bard/warlord in our game to include everyone, and it's great for the group feeling.

Darth Stabber
2010-07-03, 02:55 PM
The warlord is the 4e MBA (master of battle administration). As stated before other party members have the capacity to do more damage/get better specials than you, you have the capacity to make them do that more often. You are the leader, lead. You get to tell the ranger that just sword nova'd to hit the enemy again, and they do. The battle is not won by the general's hand-to-hand skill, it is won by the general marshaling his forces with puissance. You inspire and direct, did Patton have a reputation for personally shooting nazis, no he inspired his men to shoot nazis better, and directed them to the best places to shoot nazis from.

Evard
2010-07-03, 02:56 PM
Explain Warlords?

Warlords = Pure Big Bangin Awesomeness

I played in a game where it was pure melee characters... Rogue, Fighter, Warlord. The fighter would rush in and knock down the opponent, next the rogue would flank/attack/sneak attack/(use action point if its a BBEG), then the warlord will tell the rogue to do it again... The great thing about sneak attack is that you roll damage then see if you want to keep that roll :D

OOOO some powers can be used as a melee basic attack :D *high fives*

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-03, 05:09 PM
Hmmm, let me rephrase, who are the best people to grant attacks? I thought making fighters attack is great because of their class features but everyone here says that the idea is to go for maximum damage instead.

So I should ignore my seeker and focus on the barbarian in the party?

You should be leaning towards the classes whose melee basic attacks will actually hit, which is mostly STR based classes, classes with at-wills that count as melee basic attacks, and people who've taken the weapon training feat.

That said, you should also be on the lookout for Strikers who have somehow failed to use their class feature to add damage for the round, especially the Rogue, whose damage is pretty big.

From the looks of your party, 99% of your Commander Strikes are probably going to the Barbarian.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-03, 05:39 PM
Hmmm, let me rephrase, who are the best people to grant attacks?
Usually, strikers and fighters. In practice, keep an eye on the situation because it depends.

Fun tip: normally if you run, you get a penalty to hit; however, if you run and grant an ally an attack, the ally does not get this penalty.

Mando Knight
2010-07-03, 05:46 PM
In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory.

Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little more about fighting than you do, pal... because he INVENTED it! And then he perfected it, so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor!

And then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them on a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one!

And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together it's called a zoo!


....UNLESS IT'S A FARM!

Evard
2010-07-03, 05:50 PM
hahahahahaha *high fives*

Hmmm As a DM would you give a bonus to hit if something like this happened...

Warlord: Runs, does a somersault then flips over the monster. While in mid flip uses commanding strike for an ally to attack.
Fighter: Attacks while monster is looking above it.

Would you give a bonus to hit/damage for the fighter due to the warlord being really really distracting?

HMS Invincible
2010-07-03, 07:29 PM
hahahahahaha *high fives*

Hmmm As a DM would you give a bonus to hit if something like this happened...

Warlord: Runs, does a somersault then flips over the monster. While in mid flip uses commanding strike for an ally to attack.
Fighter: Attacks while monster is looking above it.

Would you give a bonus to hit/damage for the fighter due to the warlord being really really distracting?
If you did it once or twice, sure, but since it's an at-will... The only thing you'll accomplish is a pissed off DM who smacks you down the 5th time you try it.

If he was nice, you'd get an athletics check to do the jump or else get OA'ed and fall horribly.

I got this weird no-attacking build so far, where I have 8 STR and it's sorta working. There are 2 problems, paragon classes for warlords didn't take into account someone trying to go with an all INT/CHA combo with no STR. Therefore, I have to multiclass, which along with the melee training burns more feats that I'd like.
The majority of the "good" nonSTR based powers are all encounter level 1, which means you don't get the higher power goodies the other PCs get.
The other problem is that you're relying very heavily on your allies to be optimized, while you soak up attacks and heal them.
If your allies suck then you won't help any.

Arbane
2010-07-03, 07:46 PM
If you play a Warlord, you get to be this guy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NyCFV27QELk/SaWLMZshd8I/AAAAAAAAAAM/DzOgB8jR4mU/s1600-R/kamina.jpg

You need more reason than that? :smallbiggrin:

Loren
2010-07-03, 08:11 PM
Another point about not focusing only on one character all the time; not only will others not feel loved, you will get bored. If your playing a warlord the challenge for you is figuring out who it in the best position to hurt your opponents both physically (hp) and tactically.
Also look at powers like Wolf Pack Tactics which you can use to set up an ally with flanking. If you combine Knights' Move and Commander's Strike you can essentially give a character another turn.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-07-03, 08:18 PM
If you did it once or twice, sure, but since it's an at-will... The only thing you'll accomplish is a pissed off DM who smacks you down the 5th time you try it.

If he was nice, you'd get an athletics check to do the jump or else get OA'ed and fall horribly.

I got this weird no-attacking build so far, where I have 8 STR and it's sorta working. There are 2 problems, paragon classes for warlords didn't take into account someone trying to go with an all INT/CHA combo with no STR. Therefore, I have to multiclass, which along with the melee training burns more feats that I'd like.
The majority of the "good" nonSTR based powers are all encounter level 1, which means you don't get the higher power goodies the other PCs get.
The other problem is that you're relying very heavily on your allies to be optimized, while you soak up attacks and heal them.
If your allies suck then you won't help any.

I know where you're coming from. I have a Shardmind Taclord based on the same theme. While the multiclass feat tax is rather unpleasant, Bardic Dilettante wed with the Archer Warlord variant allows for interesting possibilities with the Euphonic Bow PP. Wrap up the show with the Legendary General ED, and you wind up with a build that wields allies in a manner that would make Bobby Fischer give an impressed nod of approval.