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Kobold_Punting
2010-07-03, 02:21 PM
I only have two players at most.
I have pretty much banned Tier 1 classes to prevent Campaign breaking.
I prefer to run 3.5e to give my players a feeling of empowerment, without making it too difficult for me to come up with a decent challenge.
Does anyone have any decent ideas for me to get a good hook on them to inspire them keeping their characters?
We have a problem of constantly rolling new chars. every time we run.

hehe, I'd like to have a steady campaign and actually finish one for once. :smallbiggrin:

Baalthazaq
2010-07-03, 02:28 PM
Do what the soaps do.

Cliffhangers.
Give them a mystery to solve that will clearly take several sessions.
Give the players something cool and unique. (Cantrips usually give me good ideas)
(I once gave a rogue, gloves of mending and silent portal. Both cantrips, but at will. Whenever he opened a door or even jumped through a window, it would make no noise. He once cut his way out of prison, mended the bars back together. When guards walked in on him standing outside his cell, they said "Get back in your cage!", to which he responded "Sorry, can't, it's locked").

Introduce an interesting badguy who gets away. Etc.

It all depends on individual players though.

oxybe
2010-07-03, 02:29 PM
ask them strait up what kind of game they want to play and make characters, both for "in it for the long run". works for me every time.

Darth Stabber
2010-07-03, 02:42 PM
Watch some buddy flicks, that should give some inspiration.

I also recommend the gestalt option in Unearthed Arcana (also in the SRD). Your players get to pick 2 classes and get the abilities of both (helps a lot).

Banning tier 1 when you have 2players may not be the best option, since they need some more power, or they will only likely to be able to get through like two encounters per 8 hour rest.

Jorda75
2010-07-03, 02:57 PM
The easiest way I've found to convince people to keep their character is pretty simple, give them an awesome magic item. Nothing game breaking but something that they find really cool or useful early in the game, that way they'll be less inclined to re-roll and give up the item. It's cheap and dirty but hey, it works :)

Kylarra
2010-07-03, 03:01 PM
You'll want them to be invested in their character's relationship to the world, rather than just as a collection of abilities traveling around and doing things.

From a mechanical aspect though, I second the idea of gestalt to give more abilities.

Kobold_Punting
2010-07-03, 03:05 PM
Thanks guys!

I really appreciate all the ideas. I like the magic item idea, the bad guy gets away too.

I'm scrambling atm to get a game going tonight, but I'll keep most of this in mind.

Gestalt is always fun, makes for some flavourful gameplay as well as a heroic feel. And I hope for them to achieve deity status.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-03, 03:09 PM
Considering you only have two players, requiring they be a Tier 1 class is probably better then banning it.

Kobold_Punting
2010-07-03, 03:14 PM
And I was also aiming for a deep plot for once they achieve deity status, basically to make some rivalry between the gods, kind of like the drama that plays out in Greek Mythology. Soaps for Epic. hehe.

Also thinking of making a "Determine The Fate of the Universe/Multiverse"

but thats way down the line, thanks though! You guys gave some really strong ideas, and i will be implementing most of them.

Kobold_Punting
2010-07-03, 03:19 PM
The Tier 1 ban idea came from many games of having one or both of them essentially making me pull my hair out, I was thinking of allowing Tier 1 just no Transmutation School. As fun and destructive it can be, it tends to make my ability to DM very tedious and making encounters last a lot longer. simply cause I have to constantly buff the monsters/npcs to almost deity like status to face off one 12+ Cleric. lol. Which usually leaves my other player sitting there going: "well, I'm glad I could be here, to stand around and look pretty."

I have nothing against Tier 1. Great for soloing or destroying legions of enemies, But not for playing with one VERY experienced player, and one not so.

Veros
2010-07-03, 11:10 PM
:smallwink:

'ight guys, here's the issue we have. I break games. Frequently. I'm also a major CO board reader and have enough D&D books to make some people cry. (Of which I've all read save the new 4.0e books I got 2 nights ago.)

Me being me causes hair pulling because I have knowledge of tedious builds. (DMM Cleric is my favorite then Cheater of Mystra then Twice Betrayer of Shar. [Obviously Clerics.]) In almost every game I play I go Cleric, when I don't I snag Sorcerer usually and really hit up the Transmutation tree. Because buffs are frequently >>>>>>>> straight up attacks.

Right now since we are doing a gestalt with just me in it, I'm doing a Wilder/Warlock. (Head desk!) I'm playing it right now as a screamer. (Energy Ray for Sonic damage when I need a burst and I need it now. While the rest of the time relying on Warlock powers to whittle down mobs and move about.) Right now I'm level 4. (Which sucks cause you don't get Flee the Scene or Fell Flight till level 6!) Right now, other than the heavy meshing of MAD the character isn't optimized.

With it, it and a staff-bashing sorcerer (might as well been a commoner), cleared an entire tomb of 19 mobs at level 1. (Obviously we leveled, he left, went to sleep and woke up 15 years later... Yay race with 50 years from adulthood till middle age!) 3 of them were CR 2+, and we had 1 near party kill. The other 16 where CR 1/2's and such. And knowing what I do about zombies I abused the Single Action Only quality and forced them to move to prevent attacks from them. :smallcool: Admittedly of the lootz we used up ALL of the cure lights in the stash (and my scrolls of it).

So even as gestalt tier 2? (Wilder) tier 3 (Warlock) with the aid of a Tier 2 (5?) (Sorcerer) that did most of it's damage with a staff by smacking undead, encounters per day is lolz worthy usually. We frequently do above and beyond the expected 3 per day that is expected. After the whole place, we were at almost full hp, suffering from a -1 to con (poison), and at half my power points. The sorcerer had used all of it's spells per day on Magic Missile
spam and acid splash.
Invocations are All-Seeing Eye, Spider Walk, and Beguiling Influence. (CM and CA)
Powers are Energy Ray, Force Screen, and Ego Whip. (I always take Ego Whip cause it's funny doing 1d4 Cha damage AND dazing. =3)

For ease of handling, I'm trying to go Warlock and Wilder all the way to 20 without prestige classing out. (Ugh, the horribleness!)

And Kobold Punter, don't lie. Almost? Psh. DMM Cleric's would punt it. Anyspell and Greater Anyspell <3. Use them to get Polymorph as a Cleric. Or a DMM: Persistant Polymorph. With Divine Favor, Delay Death, Deathward Antimagic Field...

Anyways! Even in 4e I make characters that makes him go wtf!!! Clerics toss around so much healing + temp hp it's not funny. And in a party of two... Annoying when the fights are scaled down in number to make up for the reduced size. (So instead I made an Elf Druid with Mark of Passage and Agile Form as two of it's feats and the other being Spirit Talker [Multi-class feat for Shaman].)

While the second member... Has NO idea about character optimization. And hell... Most of the time fights like a commoner--I do this. I do this (again). I do this (the same thing again). Until he runs out of spells or the fight ends. He absolutely doesn't even understand how to flank when he's playing a rogue. And to be honest, I think I could make a commoner 15/survivor 5 that's more useful in combat than him as a rogue. The only time he ever does something right is when we TELL him what to do before hand, and hold his hand through character creation and level up (even then it's often not enough).

Thajocoth
2010-07-04, 12:45 AM
:smallwink:

'ight guys, here's the issue we have. I break games. Frequently. I'm also a major CO board reader and have enough D&D books to make some people cry. (Of which I've all read save the new 4.0e books I got 2 nights ago.)

Me being me causes hair pulling because I have knowledge of tedious builds. (DMM Cleric is my favorite then Cheater of Mystra then Twice Betrayer of Shar. [Obviously Clerics.]) In almost every game I play I go Cleric, when I don't I snag Sorcerer usually and really hit up the Transmutation tree. Because buffs are frequently >>>>>>>> straight up attacks.

Right now since we are doing a gestalt with just me in it, I'm doing a Wilder/Warlock. (Head desk!) I'm playing it right now as a screamer. (Energy Ray for Sonic damage when I need a burst and I need it now. While the rest of the time relying on Warlock powers to whittle down mobs and move about.) Right now I'm level 4. (Which sucks cause you don't get Flee the Scene or Fell Flight till level 6!) Right now, other than the heavy meshing of MAD the character isn't optimized.

With it, it and a staff-bashing sorcerer (might as well been a commoner), cleared an entire tomb of 19 mobs at level 1. (Obviously we leveled, he left, went to sleep and woke up 15 years later... Yay race with 50 years from adulthood till middle age!) 3 of them were CR 2+, and we had 1 near party kill. The other 16 where CR 1/2's and such. And knowing what I do about zombies I abused the Single Action Only quality and forced them to move to prevent attacks from them. :smallcool: Admittedly of the lootz we used up ALL of the cure lights in the stash (and my scrolls of it).

So even as gestalt tier 2? (Wilder) tier 3 (Warlock) with the aid of a Tier 2 (5?) (Sorcerer) that did most of it's damage with a staff by smacking undead, encounters per day is lolz worthy usually. We frequently do above and beyond the expected 3 per day that is expected. After the whole place, we were at almost full hp, suffering from a -1 to con (poison), and at half my power points. The sorcerer had used all of it's spells per day on Magic Missile
spam and acid splash.
Invocations are All-Seeing Eye, Spider Walk, and Beguiling Influence. (CM and CA)
Powers are Energy Ray, Force Screen, and Ego Whip. (I always take Ego Whip cause it's funny doing 1d4 Cha damage AND dazing. =3)

For ease of handling, I'm trying to go Warlock and Wilder all the way to 20 without prestige classing out. (Ugh, the horribleness!)

And Kobold Punter, don't lie. Almost? Psh. DMM Cleric's would punt it. Anyspell and Greater Anyspell <3. Use them to get Polymorph as a Cleric. Or a DMM: Persistant Polymorph. With Divine Favor, Delay Death, Deathward Antimagic Field...

Anyways! Even in 4e I make characters that makes him go wtf!!! Clerics toss around so much healing + temp hp it's not funny. And in a party of two... Annoying when the fights are scaled down in number to make up for the reduced size. (So instead I made an Elf Druid with Mark of Passage and Agile Form as two of it's feats and the other being Spirit Talker [Multi-class feat for Shaman].)

While the second member... Has NO idea about character optimization. And hell... Most of the time fights like a commoner--I do this. I do this (again). I do this (the same thing again). Until he runs out of spells or the fight ends. He absolutely doesn't even understand how to flank when he's playing a rogue. And to be honest, I think I could make a commoner 15/survivor 5 that's more useful in combat than him as a rogue. The only time he ever does something right is when we TELL him what to do before hand, and hold his hand through character creation and level up (even then it's often not enough).

You like big buffs... He needs big buffs. I think you can help each other out here.

Doresain
2010-07-04, 12:54 AM
im actually DMing a two person game as of right now...of course, i have a DMPC with ranged capabilities in the mix simply because both of the players are melee characters (a human paladin and a shifter barbarian/warshaper), but for the most part, the two of them do a ridiculous amount of damage...main thing i do is to try to keep the CR of the monsters a bit lower, while throwing in a few more of them to make things challenging yet fun

so far, only one PC has died, and that was because of a misunderstanding on the rules of coup de graces on my part

AvatarZero
2010-07-04, 08:53 AM
I prefer to run 3.5e to give my players a feeling of empowerment, without making it too difficult for me to come up with a decent challenge.

Sounds like you want to make the PCs be powerful without actually making them high level and giving them access to setting-shaking magic (fifth level spells do most of the damage). Ever heard of e6?

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html

You don't necessarily need to use those rules, but you might like the philosophy behind them. A 6th level character in a world full of 1st or 2nd level characters would probably feel more powerful than a 12th level character surrounded by other high level characters, not treated as anything special, with the added bonus of being much easier to design encounters for than the guy who can cast Greater Teleport, Planar Binding, Righteous Might, etc.

AslanCross
2010-07-04, 09:25 AM
If your players know the game well enough to break it if you allow Tier 1, maybe just have them run two characters each?

Baalthazaq
2010-07-04, 11:03 AM
I was going to say if you let your players be gestalts, make them base class only, or just really watch your players.

The DM for us one week told all the players to make level 20 Gestalts, all prestige classes allowed.

I wrote back with several builds, one included a 43 Hitdice animal companion/ Paladin mount.

One was an 20th caster level Wizard (Level 83 on conjuration) + 18th level sorc + 16th caster level Spellthief + 83 caster level cleric, which could burn spells to power metamagic without raising the levels.

One was a Fighter with .... 16 attacks per round, and pounce (can do it while charging).

He immediately, as per my suggestion, sent out an email not allowing all prestige classes.

Veros
2010-07-04, 11:30 AM
If your players know the game well enough to break it if you allow Tier 1, maybe just have them run two characters each?

Actually, the problem isn't that simple. I know how to break the game with Tier 1's (and low ones too, but more limitedly), while the other player doesn't. And having me run two characters is a plus to me, since I enjoy and do occasionally play a Thrallherd (and even use the believers in combat!) I'm more than used to handling small armies, much less two characters.

Granting me two characters in other words, increases the chance I just go Psion/Thrallherd with both and start playing 4/6 characters (plus many mooks. Read: believers). While the other player has problems with 1 character, much less handling two. He often doesn't give commands to his animal companion unless we remind him. (At least when he does have one.)

And with just base classes... Cleric/Druid 20 is godly. Especially if it's a DMM Cleric with natural spell so it can cast while Wild Shaped into, my favorite, a brown bear with a brown bear animal companion. Animal growth and other buffs and sickening.

Even when I do buff him up, he still fights like a one-trick pony. Most of the time it's, "I cast searing light. I cast searing light. I cast searing light." Even worse it when he's a rogue, I run up to it and attack it. Then he tanks the mob as a rogue, and forces me as whatever class to go into melee and maneuver correctly so I'm causing him to be flanking it. (Even when I set up a perfect way for him to flank the mobs, he fails to notice and moves to a different spot that doesn't cause him to be flanking.)

When we make him play a cleric or druid, he basically become a healbot, since he doesn't understand the concept of buffs, (even when I made him a DMM Cleric) the potential of the class goes to waste. And we've been trying to help him learn over the last 2-3 years with no success.

Thajocoth
2010-07-04, 11:35 AM
Even when I do buff him up, he still fights like a one-trick pony. Most of the time it's, "I cast searing light. I cast searing light. I cast searing light." Even worse it when he's a rogue, I run up to it and attack it. Then he tanks the mob as a rogue, and forces me as whatever class to go into melee and maneuver correctly so I'm causing him to be flanking it. (Even when I set up a perfect way for him to flank the mobs, he fails to notice and moves to a different spot that doesn't cause him to be flanking.)

Then buff what he IS doing. Help him make a character that's really good at one thing, and then buff that thing. This is obviously what he wants to play.

A Fighter might be a good idea here.

Math_Mage
2010-07-04, 12:06 PM
Actually, the problem isn't that simple. I know how to break the game with Tier 1's (and low ones too, but more limitedly), while the other player doesn't. And having me run two characters is a plus to me, since I enjoy and do occasionally play a Thrallherd (and even use the believers in combat!) I'm more than used to handling small armies, much less two characters.

Granting me two characters in other words, increases the chance I just go Psion/Thrallherd with both and start playing 4/6 characters (plus many mooks. Read: believers). While the other player has problems with 1 character, much less handling two. He often doesn't give commands to his animal companion unless we remind him. (At least when he does have one.)

Yes, increasing the complexity of the game is going to exacerbate the differences between you two (that applies to gestalt as well, since someone suggested it). The basic solution is for you and the DM to keep a lid on your optimization while you introduce the other guy to basic character building principles and combat tactics. Keep the game simpler, so he doesn't get overwhelmed.


And with just base classes... Cleric/Druid 20 is godly. Especially if it's a DMM Cleric with natural spell so it can cast while Wild Shaped into, my favorite, a brown bear with a brown bear animal companion. Animal growth and other buffs and sickening.

This is what I mean. You don't need to play a CoDZilla. Your group optimization level is lower than that, and your DM shouldn't need to play to that.


Even when I do buff him up, he still fights like a one-trick pony. Most of the time it's, "I cast searing light. I cast searing light. I cast searing light." Even worse it when he's a rogue, I run up to it and attack it. Then he tanks the mob as a rogue, and forces me as whatever class to go into melee and maneuver correctly so I'm causing him to be flanking it. (Even when I set up a perfect way for him to flank the mobs, he fails to notice and moves to a different spot that doesn't cause him to be flanking.)

And this is something you can fix by talking to him about basic combat tactics. Focus fire and flanking are good ideas whether or not you're playing a rogue. And introducing him to his class features in a little more detail would be a good idea.


When we make him play a cleric or druid, he basically become a healbot, since he doesn't understand the concept of buffs, (even when I made him a DMM Cleric) the potential of the class goes to waste. And we've been trying to help him learn over the last 2-3 years with no success.

Making someone a DMM Cleric is not a good way to help him learn to optimize. Have him read the (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) appropriate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866690/The_Duskblades_Handbook_--_2007) for (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook) his (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived) class (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook). Talk to him about combat options (tank, sneak, harry, buff, debuff, CC, heal), and basic strategies for filling those roles. Talk to him about special attack actions. Then get him to practice building a few characters whose mechanics are geared towards a single role.

This is only if he's interested in learning about optimization. If he isn't, then you'll just have to suck it up at some point.

Veros
2010-07-04, 03:29 PM
Yes, increasing the complexity of the game is going to exacerbate the differences between you two (that applies to gestalt as well, since someone suggested it). The basic solution is for you and the DM to keep a lid on your optimization while you introduce the other guy to basic character building principles and combat tactics. Keep the game simpler, so he doesn't get overwhelmed.
Which is something we have tried doing. Though even unoptimized I'm still familiar with spells, basic combat tactics, et cetera which alone makes a large difference between our play styles and general usefulness (especially in combat). Warlock with Spider Walk, Eldritch Spear, and Beguiling Influence as his leasts, then Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, and Charm as his lessers. (Much less going higher...) Is more optimized than the other player can generally match.


This is what I mean. You don't need to play a CoDZilla. Your group optimization level is lower than that, and your DM shouldn't need to play to that.
I know. Even making the other player as a CoDZilla and me as a Warlock/Sorcerer leaves a huge difference of optimization in my favor. (Sadly.)


And this is something you can fix by talking to him about basic combat tactics. Focus fire and flanking are good ideas whether or not you're playing a rogue. And introducing him to his class features in a little more detail would be a good idea.
We've tried that approach for the last year or so. He either tunes us out while we are explaining it to him, or simply doesn't grasp the concept well enough to use them in the middle of a fight.




Making someone a DMM Cleric is not a good way to help him learn to optimize. Have him read the (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) appropriate (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866690/The_Duskblades_Handbook_--_2007) for (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook) his (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868802/Druid_Handbook_revived) class (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871666/The_3.5_Rogue_Handbook). Talk to him about combat options (tank, sneak, harry, buff, debuff, CC, heal), and basic strategies for filling those roles. Talk to him about special attack actions. Then get him to practice building a few characters whose mechanics are geared towards a single role.

This is only if he's interested in learning about optimization. If he isn't, then you'll just have to suck it up at some point.
As far as we can tell... Optimization has to be spoon-fed too him. Even then, he doesn't know how to use tactics and such to use it efficiently/at all.

We have talked to him about combat options, and no matter what class or anything he plays like tank (that has no idea of movement.)

A fighter might be a good idea for him. Hell, a barbarian might be better since he will never use grapple, trip, sunder, disarm, et cetera, unless we successfully roll our Handle Animal (Read: Diplomacy) to push him into doing something right then instead of letting him remember and decided to do it on his own. But, that's not as optimized as I can pull off. Unless I regulate myself to simply buffing him and hiding behind him all day long. (Which would work, but it's a waste.)

arrowhen
2010-07-04, 04:06 PM
Does he *want* to get better at optimizing/tactics? Is he having fun just standing there whacking stuff? Is he active and engaged in the non-combat side of the game? Is he mostly there to hang out with his friends?

Veros
2010-07-04, 08:05 PM
He doesn't seem to want to get better at optimization or tactics. Nor is he having a lot of fun just sitting there beating stuff over the head with *insert random weapon here*.

He's not very active or engaged in the non-combat side of the game either, though he is there to hang out with friends/family. (My friend, Kobold_Punting's brother)

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-04, 08:25 PM
Force him to play a warblade, and remind him at every opportunity to use his maneuvers and to recharge him. Seriously, our DM's kid (11 I think) went from far back of the group to big DPS and moderate tank.

WarKitty
2010-07-04, 11:37 PM
Out of curiosity, does your unoptimized player actually *want* to be playing? Or would he be much happier if you did something else?

AslanCross
2010-07-05, 12:05 AM
Actually, the problem isn't that simple. I know how to break the game with Tier 1's (and low ones too, but more limitedly), while the other player doesn't. And having me run two characters is a plus to me, since I enjoy and do occasionally play a Thrallherd (and even use the believers in combat!) I'm more than used to handling small armies, much less two characters.

Granting me two characters in other words, increases the chance I just go Psion/Thrallherd with both and start playing 4/6 characters (plus many mooks. Read: believers). While the other player has problems with 1 character, much less handling two. He often doesn't give commands to his animal companion unless we remind him. (At least when he does have one.)

And with just base classes... Cleric/Druid 20 is godly. Especially if it's a DMM Cleric with natural spell so it can cast while Wild Shaped into, my favorite, a brown bear with a brown bear animal companion. Animal growth and other buffs and sickening.

Even when I do buff him up, he still fights like a one-trick pony. Most of the time it's, "I cast searing light. I cast searing light. I cast searing light." Even worse it when he's a rogue, I run up to it and attack it. Then he tanks the mob as a rogue, and forces me as whatever class to go into melee and maneuver correctly so I'm causing him to be flanking it. (Even when I set up a perfect way for him to flank the mobs, he fails to notice and moves to a different spot that doesn't cause him to be flanking.)

When we make him play a cleric or druid, he basically become a healbot, since he doesn't understand the concept of buffs, (even when I made him a DMM Cleric) the potential of the class goes to waste. And we've been trying to help him learn over the last 2-3 years with no success.


Okay, I get that. Honestly I don't know how to respond to this situation, considering it seems to be harder for you not to optimize in a game-breaking manner.

I have handled groups with players who don't get optimization or tactics (the healbot cleric of the god of death, strangely enough), but then I've always had more than enough players. (That group had six)

I do have to agree with Warkitty, though. Does the other guy really want to play?

Darth Stabber
2010-07-06, 09:46 AM
Actually if you want good fictional examples of 2 character parties I recommend the following reading. Green Lantern Green Arrow for a team that has party conflict(LG and CG respectively) but is still highly functional, or the Cable & Deadpool series for a more disfunctional take.

Kobold_Punting
2010-07-08, 07:13 PM
I think we have it figured out, finally. lol. We built my other player (my little brother) a Crusader/Knight Salty. Loads of damage, tanking, etc. He seems really optimistic and involved with his character, in and out of combat! Seems like we found his place, and thankfully we got another semi-new player, and a possible fourth.

Veros' Thrall Herder is making up for the lack of a fourth, which I was running a DMPC Cleric 5 to run as heals and slight buffs, mainly for the tank. Now that he has his believers, I can throw challenges and actual CRs at them!

Its DM Paradise for me.

I'm enjoying this game thoroughly, first time in a long time! No offense Veros, it wasnt your fault! Now that Arthuel (my bro) is IN, and his friend, everything is running smooth!

Thanks for all the suggestions!

I'm out for now.

~Kobold_Punting~ :smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile::s mallsmile: