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Trodon
2010-07-03, 10:04 PM
As the title says, I have a question, can a third level character only learn three extra languages through Speak Language? (Two skill points per language.)

Snake-Aes
2010-07-03, 10:10 PM
As the title says, I have a question, can a third level character only learn three extra languages through Speak Language? (Two skill points per language.)


# You can purchase Speak Language just like any other skill, but instead of buying a rank in it, you choose a new language that you can speak.
# You can purchase Speak Language just like any other skill, but instead of buying a rank in it, you choose a new language that you can speak.
You know a language per point you expend on the skill... The writing technically implies that there is no max ranking, so whether or not Speak Language has a level-based limit is up to your group to interpret.

Trodon
2010-07-03, 10:11 PM
Alright, I'll ask my DM, thanks.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-03, 10:19 PM
A 3rd level fighter can have 12 ranks in craft it just have to be in two different craft skills. Or more probable a wizard can have max ranks in five different knowledge skills.
By RAW the speak language is no different, each language is a different skill.

Trodon
2010-07-03, 10:25 PM
A 3rd level fighter can have 12 ranks in craft it just have to be in two different craft skills. Or more probable a wizard can have max ranks in five different knowledge skills.
By RAW the speak language is no different, each language is a different skill.

That, is actually an incredibly good point. I'll let my DM know what you have said, thank you both so much.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-03, 10:27 PM
Another thing to consider is that if you have skill points to spare on Language, odds are you have an intelligence bonus and thus more automatic languages. Unless it's critical to the plot, I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to know as many languages as you can pay for. Thankfully that usually isn't a big deal.
Knowing infernal saved my group's skin once :x Quite the trap it was.

Trodon
2010-07-03, 10:28 PM
That's true, I just don't have anything else I want to spend them all. :smallbiggrin:

Snake-Aes
2010-07-03, 10:36 PM
Make sure you learn all the cuss words to throw at people at different opportunities :p

Trodon
2010-07-03, 10:43 PM
Hahahahaaha, I'll try to do that while I'm slicing them in half with my katana. :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-04, 01:30 AM
You don't actually have ranks in Speak Language. You just spend skill points to learn a new language. Do it as much as you want.

Gadora
2010-07-04, 02:01 AM
As other people have said, there is no limit on how many you can take. I've currently got a level 6 beguiler who knows all of the languages in the PHB, with the exception of druidic. Stupid druids.:smallfrown:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 02:05 AM
As other people have said, there is no limit on how many you can take. I've currently got a level 6 beguiler who knows all of the languages in the PHB, with the exception of druidic. Stupid druids.:smallfrown:

Your a beguiler go find a druid to beguile and teach you drudic. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids, that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Zaq
2010-07-04, 02:07 AM
Your a beguiler go find a druid to beguile and teach you drudic. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids, that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I would be wary of any plan which requires a Druid to be failing several Will saves. Just sayin'. Not impossible, but... yeah.

PId6
2010-07-04, 02:11 AM
I would be wary of any plan which requires a Druid to be failing several Will saves. Just sayin'. Not impossible, but... yeah.
Who needs Will saves? Just tell them you're studying to become a druid. Glibness is a Beguiler spell, after all.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 02:35 AM
I would be wary of any plan which requires a Druid to be failing several Will saves. Just sayin'. Not impossible, but... yeah.

A 1st level druid with 18 wisdom has a will save of +6, The minimum save DC for dominate person is 16, but assuming a good ability score and magic items 20 is more likely.

The issue is if any druids find OUT you know drudic well do you really want every druid in the world coming after you?

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-04, 05:41 AM
The issue is if any druids find OUT you know drudic well do you really want every druid in the world coming after you?

Would they really try to get you just because you learned their secret code? EVERY Druid in the world?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

I doubt it.

They'd probably just blacklist you so you can't ever get any help or jobs from Druids ever again IMO. And probably try to ruin your reputation amongst the country folk.

Roderick_BR
2010-07-04, 10:18 AM
That, is actually an incredibly good point. I'll let my DM know what you have said, thank you both so much.
If you are using skill points, you can consider that each language is a different usage of the Speak Language skill, in the same way that Knowledge, Craft, and Profession cane be several different skills. Therefore, as long as you have skill points left to spend, you can learn as many languages as you want.

Defiant
2010-07-04, 11:18 AM
Note: if Speak Language (n/a) isn't a class skill for you (like it is for the Marshal, Bard, etc.), then it takes 2 skill points to learn a new language.

Trodon
2010-07-04, 12:21 PM
Note: if Speak Language (n/a) isn't a class skill for you (like it is for the Marshal, Bard, etc.), then it takes 2 skill points to learn a new language.

Yeah it's not, I spent 34 Skill Points to learn 17 languages.


Thanks everyone!

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-04, 02:46 PM
If you are using skill points, you can consider that each language is a different usage of the Speak Language skill, in the same way that Knowledge, Craft, and Profession cane be several different skills. Therefore, as long as you have skill points left to spend, you can learn as many languages as you want.

It's best not to treat Speak Language like other skills since, again, you don't actually gain ranks in it (nor do you gain ranks in specific languages like you do for Knowledge/Craft/Profession/Perform).

Speak Language is simply a mechanism for transforming skill points into languages. Other than the fact that some classes only have to spend 1 point and others have to spend 2, it follows none of the rules for skill usage. Treat it like the unique case that it is.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 02:57 PM
Would they really try to get you just because you learned their secret code? EVERY Druid in the world?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

I doubt it.

They'd probably just blacklist you so you can't ever get any help or jobs from Druids ever again IMO. And probably try to ruin your reputation amongst the country folk.

Why not? its their secret code. Once one non-druid knows it he can teach it to others and they can teach it to others and before you know it. There isn't a secret language anymore.

And what I mean is by come after you, isn't they all gang up at once for you. Its any druid in the area that knows your around comes looking. Kinda like the police the druids all have their own jurisdictions they won't chase you across the planet but they will hunt you in the area they maintain balance.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-04, 03:07 PM
Why not? its their secret code. Once one non-druid knows it he can teach it to others and they can teach it to others and before you know it. There isn't a secret language anymore.

And what I mean is by come after you, isn't they all gang up at once for you. Its any druid in the area that knows your around comes looking. Kinda like the police the druids all have their own jurisdictions they won't chase you across the planet but they will hunt you in the area they maintain balance.

Maybe the evil Druids will, but just knowing somebody's secret language isn't really the grounds for murder (for most people).

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 03:20 PM
Maybe the evil Druids will, but just knowing somebody's secret language isn't really the grounds for murder (for most people).

Yes but the only way he could have learned the language was to force another druid by either torture or magic to teach him the language. If I stole the secret language used to encode [insert country here] army communications I would probably expect to be executed.

So its perfectly reasonable druids would consider any non-druid who learns drudic an enemy to be killed, imprisoned or forced to live out their life as a simple animal.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-04, 03:23 PM
I don't consider it "perfectly reasonable" at all. Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, LV.

Keld Denar
2010-07-04, 03:30 PM
A Loremaster can learn Druidic. They have an ability that gives them a new language without any restrictions. That language could be Druidic or any other secret language. It even makes sense that a master of lore would be most strongly drawn to that which is not ment to be known, simply for the sake of knowing it.

ericgrau
2010-07-04, 07:23 PM
A rank in a language gives you the language. That is two skill points cross class and one skill point as a class skill. Bards, loremasters (DMG PrC) and I think aristocrats (NPC class) have speak language as a class skill. Don't remember if anyone else does. But ya since each language is a different "skill", you can blow as many skill points as you want regardless of level.

Baron Malkar
2010-07-04, 09:22 PM
Factorum gets also gets speak language also.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-04, 10:25 PM
Yes but the only way he could have learned the language was to force another druid by either torture or magic to teach him the language.
No, that's not the only way. You can learn a language by infiltration. Druidic is learned upon achieving your first level of Druid, naturally (i.e., without magic). That's because Bonus Languages is a class feature of Druids which is not designated as Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like.
Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. You just need to convince some Druids that you want to join the class, and spend enough time with them to learn the language.

The problem then is just pulling off the necessary subterfuge. It would probably help if you have the ability to simulate what the Druids would be teaching you. A Cleric would have enough commonality to pull off the spellcasting, as they share Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Virtue, and other spells that an apprentice Druid should be learning. A Ranger of level 4+ would be able to simulate the wild empathy and animal companion Druid class features.

Think of the role-play opportunities!

PId6
2010-07-04, 10:54 PM
Alternatively, take a level of druid, then level drain yourself. You should still remember learning the language, even if you lose all the class abilities.

holywhippet
2010-07-04, 10:57 PM
How many DMs require the players to justify language learning? You could happily have a bard picking up a language or two every time they level up - but realistically, how are they going to be learning all of those languages? You could pick up several levels in the course of a dungeon crawl, so how would you learn things like celestial or ignan?

Curmudgeon
2010-07-04, 11:01 PM
Alternatively, take a level of druid, then level drain yourself. You should still remember learning the language, even if you lose all the class abilities.
Actually, no, because learning Druidic is a class ability. If you forget wild empathy and how to cast Druid spells, you also forget the language.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 11:02 PM
Alternatively, take a level of druid, then level drain yourself. You should still remember learning the language, even if you lose all the class abilities.

Nope, when you lose a level you lose everything that went with it.


No, that's not the only way. You can learn a language by infiltration. Druidic is learned upon achieving your first level of Druid, naturally (i.e., without magic). That's because Bonus Languages is a class feature of Druids which is not designated as Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like. You just need to convince some Druids that you want to join the class, and spend enough time with them to learn the language.

Unless learning druidic is your last lesson, which may more or less concrete your next level as drud. Or at least blow your xp as you spent all that type studying to be a druid instead of working on the class level you actually wanted.
Wouldn't that be a low blow,
"So when do learn druidic"
"That is your last lesson grasshopper"
Of course fooling a druid into making you think your one of them in order to steal the language of drudic will probably generate the same negative response as domination or other magic.

As far as infiltration goes you wouldn't need to duplicate ANY druidic abilities as the point is your pretending you want to be a druid you'd only need those powers to pretend you are a druid after learning the language.

olentu
2010-07-04, 11:05 PM
No, that's not the only way. You can learn a language by infiltration. Druidic is learned upon achieving your first level of Druid, naturally (i.e., without magic). That's because Bonus Languages is a class feature of Druids which is not designated as Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like. You just need to convince some Druids that you want to join the class, and spend enough time with them to learn the language.

The problem then is just pulling off the necessary subterfuge. It would probably help if you have the ability to simulate what the Druids would be teaching you. A Cleric would have enough commonality to pull off the spellcasting, as they share Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Purify Food and Drink, Virtue, and other spells that an apprentice Druid should be learning. A Ranger of level 4+ would be able to simulate the wild empathy and animal companion Druid class features.

Think of the role-play opportunities!

You can't just say that something can be acquired just because it happens to be a natural ability unless of course you happen to have some rules that says that. However you have not presented such rules. Now on the other hand one may be able to learn druidic but not just because it is a natural ability barring of course rules about natural abilities to the contrary.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-04, 11:27 PM
You can't just say that something can be acquired just because it happens to be a natural ability unless of course you happen to have some rules that says that.
It's inherent in the definition.
natural ability: A nonmagical capability, such as walking, swimming (for aquatic creatures), and flight (for winged creatures). Natural abilities are (naturally :smallwink:) acquired naturally. There aren't rules for learning to walk in D&D, because that ability is acquired naturally.

Optimystik
2010-07-04, 11:28 PM
How many DMs require the players to justify language learning? You could happily have a bard picking up a language or two every time they level up - but realistically, how are they going to be learning all of those languages? You could pick up several levels in the course of a dungeon crawl, so how would you learn things like celestial or ignan?

It's always possible that you learned something at the outset of your adventures, and only your later experiences/perspective allowed you to actually master it. A wizard doesn't have to return to his master's tower every other level to unlock higher spells - they know the theory behind them even if it takes awhile to put that theory into practice. The same can apply to language, or crafting, or just about anything else.

olentu
2010-07-04, 11:33 PM
It's inherent in the definition. Natural abilities are (naturally :smallwink:) acquired naturally. There aren't rules for learning to walk in D&D, because that ability is acquired naturally.

So I suppose what you are saying is that you are just making up some houserules since you admit that there are no rules.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-05, 12:02 AM
So I suppose what you are saying is that you are just making up some houserules since you admit that there are no rules.
No house rules involved. I said this language is learned naturally (which is established by the rules), not how to go about doing so (the realm of house rules). I did say there are role-play opportunities here, which is always the case where the official rules leave off.

olentu
2010-07-05, 12:09 AM
No house rules involved. I said this language is learned naturally (which is established by the rules), not how to go about doing so (the realm of house rules). I did say there are role-play opportunities here, which is always the case where the official rules leave off.

Well that is not what I was complaining about. Clearly one can learn the language by taking a level in the class. It is this "You can learn a language by infiltration." and this "You just need to convince some Druids that you want to join the class, and spend enough time with them to learn the language."

These are definite rulings as to how things work.

Edit: And so far as I could interpret the post it seemed as if the fact that it is a natural ability was the justification for making houserules.

woodenbandman
2010-07-05, 12:40 AM
I had a 3rd level bard that spoke like 14 languages one time.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-05, 01:16 AM
Edit: And so far as I could interpret the post it seemed as if the fact that it is a natural ability was the justification for making houserules.

Since when do people need justification to make house rules? :smallconfused:

olentu
2010-07-05, 01:21 AM
Since when do people need justification to make house rules? :smallconfused:

Let me rephrase that in a way that means what I meant and is hopefully less confusing. The fact that it is a natural ability was the justification for why the rulings presented were the way that things go under the rules without including DM fiat (though as they are actually houserules they do include fiat).

QuantumSteve
2010-07-05, 04:34 AM
There are no training rules. (barring completely optional ones) You don't need some one to teach you how to climb, swim, slight of hand, or spellcraft. You just buy the skill and you know how to do it. Only Druids can speak Druidic. Non-Druids cannot take Speak Language to learn it.

It's inherent in the definition. Natural abilities are (naturally :smallwink:) acquired naturally. There aren't rules for learning to walk in D&D, because that ability is acquired naturally.You need legs (or leg analogues) to learn how to walk. You need to be a Druid to learn Druidic.

That said, it makes very little sense that a Druid cannot teach a non-Druid Druidic. (There's even a clause stating the repercussions of this) So even if RAW might be a bit confusing, RAI is pretty clear.


On another note, tricking a Druid into falling, will probably net you one ticked off Druid, and many of that Druid's friends.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-05, 09:04 AM
You need legs (or leg analogues) to learn how to walk. You need to be a Druid to learn Druidic.
No, that's not the case. You need to be a Druid to teach Druidic.
Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.

Riffington
2010-07-05, 10:15 AM
Let me rephrase that in a way that means what I meant and is hopefully less confusing. The fact that it is a natural ability was the justification for why the rulings presented were the way that things go under the rules without including DM fiat (though as they are actually houserules they do include fiat).

If a houserule involves player input, it is not fiat.

olentu
2010-07-05, 03:23 PM
If a houserule involves player input, it is not fiat.

The DM still needs to make the authoritative decision whether as to how the final decision is decided upon or as to what the final decision is. An exception would be if the players took away DM power to make any decisions regarding the area and then made a houserule. Though that just shifts who is making the dictate.

Riffington
2010-07-05, 08:53 PM
The DM still needs to make the authoritative decision whether as to how the final decision is decided upon or as to what the final decision is. An exception would be if the players took away DM power to make any decisions regarding the area and then made a houserule. Though that just shifts who is making the dictate.

Final Decision, yes. Fiat (or dictate), no.
Dictate implies that you seek no input; if you do seek input then dictate is an inappropriate word. Fiat implies dictate + arbitrary; if you seek input or are nonarbitrary, then fiat is an inappropriate word.
If you are houseruling in a fun, reasonable way involving player input, then you need to use positive-connotation words for the houserules. Like "flexibility" or "improvement" or whatever applies.

olentu
2010-07-05, 09:10 PM
Final Decision, yes. Fiat (or dictate), no.
Dictate implies that you seek no input; if you do seek input then dictate is an inappropriate word. Fiat implies dictate + arbitrary; if you seek input or are nonarbitrary, then fiat is an inappropriate word.
If you are houseruling in a fun, reasonable way involving player input, then you need to use positive-connotation words for the houserules. Like "flexibility" or "improvement" or whatever applies.

For dictate I have found the definition "A directive; a command." or "an authoritative command" which in a D&D game DM rulings generally are. So dictate would seem to fit just fine barring arbitrary. Thus the problem you must have is with the nature of arbitrary.


So for you as far as I can tell arbitrary means only completely randomly. Well in that case unless a ruling is randomly chosen from all possible rulings fiat does not generally exist.

I however doubt that most people who DM choose rulings in a completely random fashion and instead use their own opinions and experience to choose. This fits with this definition of arbitrary "Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference" which I would say that most DM rulings are. Even if the DM listens to the players arguments the final decision still comes down to the judgment or preference of the individual DM even though that preference can change in the face of outside factors.