Wait, isn't the MitD pure of heart?

[Larkspur]

Why didn't Xykon just use him to unseal Dorukan's Gate?

(Aside from the "What gate?" problem, of course, but surely they could have just told him to keep walking in that direction until he ran into it.)

[Wikimaster]

He may have not known. Besides, if he was trying to feed the MitD babies before the taking of Azure City, he may have tought that the latter was no longer pure of heart because of an act like that.

[Procyonpi]

Because that would require knowing / admitting that his "secret weapon" wasn't really a big bad horrible monster.

[Bongos]

No I don't think he is pure of heart. O'chul may have said he was a good man, but I don't think that qualifies as pure of heart.

[Kish]

While I could see a case being made for the creature in the darkness being any of the six nonevil alignments*, I doubt very much that Xykon is aware that the creature is nonevil, much less good.

*This is not to say that no one will argue that he is evil; I know some people do. This is just to say it's impossible to make a good case for it.

[Seraphem]

Becuase there is no actual evidence that he IS Pure of Heart, yes there isn't any that he really isn't either, but remember, all the stuff that would make us think he is, doesn't happen till after the gate is destroyed. And Xykon was counting on MitD to be his trump card before then if the Order attacked, so he wouldn't risk his biggest weapon on the off chance that just maybe it was the exact opposite of what you thought it was.

[Larkspur]

Well, the MitD easily could be Evil, if a) Standard D&D uses Alignment-Assigned-At-Birth, b) OotSverse conserves it and c) whatever he is has an Always Evil alignment (all of which is no doubt fodder for several flame wars).

But Purity of Heart seems like it should be tied to innocence rather than alignment per se, and anyone who's had a five-minute conversation with the MitD could peg it as an innocent.

Although Xykon not being willing to admit that is a compelling argument.

[Swordpriest]

Well, Xykon seems pretty unaware when it comes to the MitD. The MitD shouts "escape," Xykon's prey disappears, and he's perplexed about who "stole his kills." My personal opinion is that Xykon scorns the MitD to the point where he mostly just ignores him -- if he knew he was "pure of heart," in fact, he'd most likely toss him out (not sure if he could kill him). As it is, X seems to think that MitD is basically a big, retarded, dangerous monster -- I don't think he has any insight into the fact that the MitD is, in fact, a "good man."

[Bongos]

Well since Xykon expects the MitD to eat babies and children, I don't see how Xykon could assume the MitD was "pure of heart". Generally those that are "pure of heart" have diets that don't include infants.

[Gift Jeraff]

Xykon seems convinced that the MitD is just stupid. Also, I'm under the impression that the MitD is [True] Neutral, mostly because he has never really done anything Good or Evil (and is Lawfully obedient to everyone yet has Elan/Thog-ish Chaotic tendencies).

I think the best explanation would be that this was before Rich fully thought out everything. I mean, Roy and Haley being "pure of heart"? (This only works if Pure of Heart = Good alignment.) The only characters I would consider purehearted are Elan, Durkon, Hinjo, and O-Chul.

Also, I think Rich said somewhere that Xykon may have been entirely wrong about the Gate's Rune. So he could have potentially lost a potential ace-in-the-hole.

[derfenrirwolv]

Good requires active commitment to a cause. THe MITD was (is?) just going with the flow of things that happened around him. Just wishing for things to turn out right isn't enough to be good, you have to DO something about it.

[tomandtish]

Actually, according to this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) they have to be touched at the same time. So pure of heart or not, MitD can’t do it by himself (unless he has REALLY long tentacles we haven’t seen yet).

Like G.J. above, I suspect “pure of heart” is also at least a little misleading. Good aligned, sure, but Haley pure of heart? Not sure I see that….

[Ancalagon]

Why didn't Xykon just use him to unseal Dorukan's Gate?

Because Xykon knows what has happend to the Power Ranger figures?

[Procyonpi]

Well, the MitD easily could be Evil, if a) Standard D&D uses Alignment-Assigned-At-Birth, b) OotSverse conserves it and c) whatever he is has an Always Evil alignment (all of which is no doubt fodder for several flame wars).

If you read the glossary in the Monster manual, "Always" still allows for some exception - it means that the species is pretty much always that alignment, and is heavily naturally predisposed to it, but rare individuals can differ for some reason. Plus, even if, as you claim DnD assigns alignments at birth (something I haven't seen explicitly stated anywhere and find somewhat doubtful), alignments can change.


Because Xykon knows what has happend to the Power Ranger figures?

This = Win.


Good requires active commitment to a cause. THe MITD was (is?) just going with the flow of things that happened around him. Just wishing for things to turn out right isn't enough to be good, you have to DO something about it.

The MitD has done several demonstratably good acts.
-Trading stew for gruel with O-Chul (although that could technically be viewed as neutral
-Creating rain for O-Chul to sleep
-Helping O-Chul Escape
-Trying to check up on O-Chul to make sure he was okay.

Just because he isn't on some grand quest for goodness doesn't mean he's not good.

[hamishspence]

If you read the glossary in the Monster manual, "Always" still allows for some exception - it means that the species is pretty much always that alignment, and is heavily naturally predisposed to it, but rare individuals can differ for some reason. Plus, even if, as you claim DnD assigns alignments at birth (something I haven't seen explicitly stated anywhere and find somewhat doubtful), alignments can change.

MM states that Always X alignment creatures are born with that alignment- however, only Always X alignment creatures have that statement. And they can change, as mentioned.

Usually X, or Often X, might not be born with an alignment at all- and develop their alignment as they are raised by their culture.

[Procyonpi]

While I could see a case being made for the creature in the darkness being any of the six nonevil alignments*, I doubt very much that Xykon is aware that the creature is nonevil, much less good.

*This is not to say that no one will argue that he is evil; I know some people do. This is just to say it's impossible to make a good case for it.

Could you explain the argument for hum being lawful? he seems pretty Neutral or chaotic to me.

[Ceaon]

The MitD has done several demonstratably good acts.
-Trading stew for gruel with O-Chul (although that could technically be viewed as neutral
Could be and should be. Trading food for food you like better is not a good act; otherwise most school kids would be exalted.

-Creating rain for O-Chul to sleep
I'm not really sure he did that, although it is a possibility. However, having a friend and caring about him does not make you good; neutral and evil people have friends too.

-Helping O-Chul Escape
See above point, but since the MitD put himself in danger (unknowingly, I guess, but still), this one makes a little more sense to me.

-Trying to check up on O-Chul to make sure he was okay.
Again, having friends =/= being good.

The MitD's alignment is very unclear to me. He has some very Thog-like tendencies, and I think Thog is Chaotic Evil. However, he also has a very Elanish air of innocence. At this moment, I don't think I could decisively peck him as any of the nine alignments.

[Phishfood]

The MitD has done several demonstratably good acts.
-Trading stew for gruel with O-Chul (although that could technically be viewed as neutral
-Creating rain for O-Chul to sleep
-Helping O-Chul Escape
-Trying to check up on O-Chul to make sure he was okay.

Just because he isn't on some grand quest for goodness doesn't mean he's not good.

But equally he has done some bad acts. His stomp that stopped haley and belkar escaping for a start. MITD seems to me more a guy who does whatever the nearest person wants him to do. He listens to the demon roaches when no-one else is around, he listens to O'Chul when no-one else is around, he listens to xykon and redcloak when they are around. Passively following is not good or evil IMO. I'd say he is firmly TN.

[Kish]

Could you explain the argument for hum being lawful?
His primary motivation is to do what everyone around him wants. He tells Miko "Xykon said I wasn't supposed to let you--" as his reason for blocking her way. When he meets Haley and Belkar and discovers they're the Order of the Stick, he's completely unconcerned with the moral implications of eating them, instead worrying about whether it's what he's supposed to do, as defined by Xykon.

Could be and should be. Trading food for food you like better is not a good act;

It's not food he likes better. It's other food he likes. It might be food he likes just as well, though I'm skeptical about this considering he told Belkar and that woman in the circus that stew is his favorite food. The trade is motivated by his knowing Mr. Stiffly likes stew and doesn't like gruel. If he could choose whether to eat stew or an equal portion of gruel, and no one else was involved, and he couldn't choose both, he'd pick stew.

[derfenrirwolv]

The MitD has done several demonstratably good acts.
-Trading stew for gruel with O-Chul (although that could technically be viewed as neutral
-Creating rain for O-Chul to sleep
-Helping O-Chul Escape
-Trying to check up on O-Chul to make sure he was okay.

All of which are things that neutral characters will do for friends. (provided they, you know, have some magical means of teleporting people away from rampaging liches and altering the local weather patterns) Being good requires making sacrifices for people and to act for the general good. Monstersan may be heading that way eventually, but he's not there yet.

[Lord Loss]

I think he is. My view of him is that he just wants everyone to be happy/be friennds with him, and does not really understand what he is doing. He does not comprehend the consequences of his actions, much like a young child. I'd put him down as NG.

[Ancalagon]

Without wanting to turn this into a debate about "mitd's alignment" but... "scraping children off the plate into the trash" does not strike me as "good".

[derfenrirwolv]

Without wanting to turn this into a debate about "mitd's alignment" but... "scraping children off the plate into the trash" does not strike me as "good".

Considering the alternative, which was to either be eaten by the MITD or killed once xykon saw they weren't being eaten its either good or neutral. He was saving their lives, even if it was a somewhat ignominious manner

[Larkspur]

Roy's little brother was Good enough to get into Celestia, and probably has about the same level of moral awareness as the MitD, for what that's worth. The MitD never acts out of malice, so I think assigning him an acts-based Evil alignment would be difficult, unless Xykon has been able to force him into some nefarious act we haven't seen. Judging by the scrapping-off-the-babies incident and the great escape, though, it seems the MitD is pretty good at slipping Goodness/Neutrality by under the radar.

Re. needing three people- that was just to get the Talisman doorway to appear; Xykon didn't want that anyway. He'd only need one person to break the Gate seal. The point about Roy and Haley is well taken, though; "pure of heart" was probably just a euphemism for Good alignment.

[Ancalagon]

Considering the alternative, which was to either be eaten by the MITD or killed once xykon saw they weren't being eaten its either good or neutral. He was saving their lives, even if it was a somewhat ignominious manner

So far "unwilling to commit evil, no real stand for good"... is neutral. O-Chul is the first case where the MitD shows some sort of "good streak". Apart from that, basically anything else we have seen so far is either neutral or evil.

[Bongos]

Wait, can't a neutral aligned man, whether chaotic, lawful or true also be considered a good man?

[TheBlackShadow]

Regardless of whether or not he is good, as such, the fact remains that, as far as I can see, he is completely innocent, with a childlike, naive view of the world. He is, in many ways, oblivious. He follows Xykon and Redcloak and it doesn't occur to him for a moment that what they're doing is evil or wrong in any way. As far as he's concerned, they're his friends, and thats that, regardless. Its only his experiences with O-Chul that have made him start to question this, and we've seen that he's gone a fair bit out of his way to look after him. If people like Roy and Haley can be pure of heart, then I see no reason why he can't.

[hamishspence]

He does say that he think's Xykon has "no love to earn" and responds with "I don't think it works that way" to Tsusiko's "Why Undead Are the Good Guys" speech:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html

but that's very much after O-Chul's influence.

[Procyonpi]

He does say that he think's Xykon has "no love to earn" and responds with "I don't think it works that way" to Tsusiko's "Why Undead Are the Good Guys" speech:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html

but that's very much after O-Chul's influence.

Indeed. I sorta view the MitD as LN to LE before his encouter with O-Chul, and NG after it.

[hamishspence]

Does the Lawful bit come from the Monster's willingness to follow orders?

Like an order to stop Miko from escaping?

He does try (though, as Xykon expected and intended) he botched it.

He also manages to remember that Xykon, at least originally, wanted him to eat the Order, when Haley reveals who she is "I think I'm supposed to devour you. Small world, huh?" But is so indecisive, that they get away.

[King of Nowhere]

1)Maybe to unseal the gate you needed a HUMANOID of good alignment?

2) Xykon figured out the "pure of heart" thing, like, a day before the final confronatation. If the question wasn't asked on this forum for a while, it is perfectly reasonable to assume he just didn't think of it.

3) What happened to the power ranger's figures is a good argument too

[veti]

Back at the time of the First Confrontation, MitD didn't seem to be pure of heart at all. It was quite willing to enter into the spirit of threatening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) the OOTS, he actively wanted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) to join in the fight, and seemed to have no reservations about killing and eating (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) our heroes. The whole "Morally Scrupulous MitD" character doesn't appear until much later.

You could make a case that he was only acting that way out of a desire to please his friend Xykon, because he didn't know any better - but that would mean a sharp redrawing of the "absolute alignment" rules of D&D. If "not knowing any better" were an excuse for the MitD, it would also be an excuse for all those "usually evil" races who just do what they're brought up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html) to do.

[Swordpriest]

Back at the time of the First Confrontation, MitD didn't seem to be pure of heart at all. It was quite willing to enter into the spirit of threatening (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) the OOTS, he actively wanted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) to join in the fight, and seemed to have no reservations about killing and eating (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) our heroes. The whole "Morally Scrupulous MitD" character doesn't appear until much later.


Yep, the first strips actually have a lot of discrepancies with the later ones. In fact, the original ones appear to exist mainly for the puns. I generally consider that the first hundred or more are only loosely related to the rest -- Rich didn't have the story as concretely in mind at that point and was mostly using it as a way to spoof D&D.

[Seraphem]

Well, I think MitD is really NG, and given the option would be a truly good individual. Thing is do to his childlike view of the world, his idea of "good" is simply doing whatever he's told to do, especially if the person telling him is someone he thinks of as a friend. We've never really seen him do anything actively malicious, the closest was the ground stomp/earthquake, and that was just because, 1. People Xycon told him to eat were getting away, and 2. They were taking his two new "friends" away with them.

Overall MitD seems very dedicated to helping his friends, and never seems to do anything to hurt anyone, unless he's just obeying his "friends", and if he was a bit less naive and child like would be an obviously, "Good" aligned individual. The only problem right now is that he really does try to be good, but what he thinks of as being good is, well it's been covered. Once he's had some more time to think over what he learned from O'Chul we my start seeing a bigger shift in his personality.

[vampire2948]

Maybe he tried...

:xykon: Ok, go poke the gate.
:mitd: Wait, so I get to get out of the darkness?
:xykon: Yeah, but not for long, just when there're no PCs around.
:mitd: One thing I'm not clear on..
:xykon: What?
:mitd: What gate are you guys talkin' about here?

:xykon: *skullpalm*

[snafu]

Pure of heart... there are always loopholes. Vegeta managed to find one, after all...

[Bongos]

Hanging out with so many evil creatures is gonna get you pegged as evil, no matter what you say your alignment is. The MitD might have saved O'chul's life, but he seemed perfectly content to watch him be continuously tortured and imprisoned.

[hamishspence]

Hanging out with so many evil creatures is gonna get you pegged as evil, no matter what you say your alignment is. The MitD might have saved O'chul's life, but he seemed perfectly content to watch him be continuously tortured and imprisoned.

Going by this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html

it's not- in effect, O-Chul is saying that the monster is not "pegged as evil."

Why? Maybe the monster doesn't fully comprehend the moral implications of what O-Chul is going through.

Unlike Thog, he may "work for" a villain, but he hasn't really participated in villainous activities- Thog has killed hundreds of people because Nale told him to (DCF bonus strips) but we haven't seen any reference to the Monster having killed anyone on Xykon's orders.

[Bongos]

Being in the employ of someone as evil and murderous as Xykon is going to get you guilt by association. The MitD is certainly an accessory to Xykon's crimes and has committed a few himself. And certainly Miko, Haley and Belkar have pegged him as evil. O'chul is the one exception, having been exposed to the MitD longer and befriended by him.

[Larkspur]

By that reasoning, Belkar would be Good.

[Procyonpi]

Being in the employ of someone as evil and murderous as Xykon is going to get you guilt by association. The MitD is certainly an accessory to Xykon's crimes and has committed a few himself. And certainly Miko, Haley and Belkar have pegged him as evil. O'chul is the one exception, having been exposed to the MitD longer and befriended by him.

Legal guilt is different from good and evil. Still it would be hard to convict him for anything.

[Knaight]

Why? Maybe the monster doesn't fully comprehend the moral implications of what O-Chul is going through.

Probably a lot more than that. After all, if the MiTD went through that, it would be moderately annoying tickling at most. And he has wanted O-Chul to escape the entire time, but was unable to do anything anyways, which suggests that he understood the moral implications at a very shallow level while not understanding what was actually going on.

[Black]

The Monster in the Darkness has the personality and grasp of reality of a child.

[Bongos]

By that reasoning, Belkar would be Good.

A truly preposterous suggestion and not a logical deduction at all.


Legal guilt is different from good and evil. Still it would be hard to convict him for anything.

No, it would be very easy to convict the MitD of several crimes. And he is a known associate, assistant and employee of a very dangerous and evil criminal.
He willingly assists Xykon and benifts from Xykon's evil crimes.

The only possibly good thing he has done is to help O-chul escape and care about his well being. On the other hand he has helped Xykon conquer a city and assists in his plot with world domination.


it's not- in effect, O-Chul is saying that the monster is not "pegged as evil."

Actually I can agree with this, when I look at it again. Do you mean to say that O' Chul is saying that the MitD can decide whether or not to be evil, that he does not have to be evil and can can choose good he desires?

[hamishspence]

"By my reckoning, you are not evil. Why do you associate with these evil people?" is basically what he's saying.

[Procyonpi]

A truly preposterous suggestion and not a logical deduction at all.

The point, I'm pretty sure, was rather that by you logic that the MitD is evil because he hangs out with evil People, belkar is good because he hangs out with good people.


No, it would be very easy to convict the MitD of several crimes. And he is a known associate, assistant and employee of a very dangerous and evil criminal.
He willingly assists Xykon and benifts from Xykon's evil crimes.

The only possibly good thing he has done is to help O-chul escape and care about his well being. On the other hand he has helped Xykon conquer a city and assists in his plot with world domination.


-"Associating with the bad guys" isn't a crime. Working for them typically even isn't unless you knowingly assist them in a specific crime. And he isn't even an "employee," because he isn't getting paid.
-The MitD didn't "help Xykon conquer the city." He sits in the back of the army and makes jokes about Xykon being a triplet and not seeing gates. I challege you to find one concrete crime of Xykon's that the MitD would qualify as a legal accessory to.
-Furthermore, even if you could convict an adult for something, there's a good chance that the MitD is a minor by his species' standards, making him immune to prosecution.

In short, the MitD is pretty much just naive, not evil.

[Nimrod's Son]

We've never really seen him do anything actively malicious, the closest was the ground stomp/earthquake, and that was just because, 1. People Xycon told him to eat were getting away, and 2. They were taking his two new "friends" away with them.
There was nothing "malicious" about the earthquake; he didn't even expect it. The roaches told him to stamp his foot, and he did.

The only reason he wanted to stop them getting away was because he didn't want to get into trouble. Problem was, he wasn't even sure if he should eat them or not... but he expected he probably should, and the fact that he was hungry tipped his decision in that direction. The only factors were confusion, hunger and fear of reprisals. Malice never came into it.

[paddyfool]

Yep, the first strips actually have a lot of discrepancies with the later ones. In fact, the original ones appear to exist mainly for the puns. I generally consider that the first hundred or more are only loosely related to the rest -- Rich didn't have the story as concretely in mind at that point and was mostly using it as a way to spoof D&D.

Either that, or:

He's progressed to a Death Slaad to a (is it White or Black next?) Slaad while under the umbrella. Or he started out as a [whatever] Slaad with amnesia stemming from the transformation - basically a "child" again - but some lingering Death Slaad tendencies which he's gradually outgrown.

[hamishspence]

Interesting hypothesis.

My thoughts:

Given that Death Slaadi are normally CE, whereas White Slaadi are normally CN (they are one size bigger than death slaadi though- Large as compared to Medium) it would be an interesting explanation except for one thing.

The Monster was almost as ditzy and "friendly" toward others in SoD, as it is in the present strips.

So it either went through a "nice" then "nasty" then "nice" stage (which doesn't fit with the fact that each stage takes a century)

Or, it's just a change of characterization.

Slaadi do "spawn" offspring- so a much older and bigger slaad, like a Black Slaad (Huge), could work as the parent.

[Bongos]

The point, I'm pretty sure, was rather that by you logic that the MitD is evil because he hangs out with evil People, belkar is good because he hangs out with good people.



-"Associating with the bad guys" isn't a crime. Working for them typically even isn't unless you knowingly assist them in a specific crime. And he isn't even an "employee," because he isn't getting paid.
Yes it is actually a crime, and the MitD is getting paid with food and lodging.


-The MitD didn't "help Xykon conquer the city." He sits in the back of the army and makes jokes about Xykon being a triplet and not seeing gates.
He was a member of the army and actually had specific orders to carry out given to him by Xykon.

I challenge you to find one concrete crime of Xykon's that the MitD would qualify as a legal accessory to.
The imprisonment of Miko after the assault on the tower was a crime the MitD assisted in.


-Furthermore, even if you could convict an adult for something, there's a good chance that the MitD is a minor by his species' standards, making him immune to prosecution.
There is just as good, or better of a chance he is not a minor of his species


In short, the MitD is pretty much just naive, not evil.
I think there is ample evidence to conclude he may be both.

[hamishspence]

I think there is ample evidence to conclude he may be both.

I think there's at least two strips that suggest otherwise:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html

[Procyonpi]

*could argue with some of Bongo's points there, but it would require treading a bit to close to real world politics, so I'll just leave it be.*

I also think people take things way too seriously when trying to figure out the MitD's identity... I know Rich said in one of the commentaries that he;s been dropping hints, but seriously, this is a narrative webcomic... people are far to quick to assume something is a "game mechanic" or a clue when it could at least as easily be simple character development or a JOKE.