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Superglucose
2010-07-04, 01:39 AM
Jeez.

I just need a minirant. I take a bunch of crap from people and I know I deserve some of it (no one's perfect) but oh my god.


Dear D/B:

My god your skin is thin. Like, absurdly thin. Yeah, your character set off a con damage trap and lost half his con. Sucks, but that's how the dice fell. And yes, we made fun of you a little bit for it... that's how it works with this group! In case you haven't noticed whenever there's a major gaffe, everyone makes fun of the gaffer for screwing up.

So then you take damage from something else (way to wade into melee unbuffed), and I heal you. Granted, it took another character to say "Heal him" before I did it, but whatever. That's part of the character I'm playing that I warned you all about before: he's kind of a jerk and doesn't want to spend resources on people. Druid who's a conservationist, who knew? Then you manage to take damage again (I don't remember that) and this time I heal you without anyone saying anything.

WHY DOES YOUR GIRLFRIEND THEN COME TO ME COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW I REFUSED TO HEAL YOU?!

And then she complains about how I "left" you close to dying the whole game. I. We had a cleric in the party. Not to mention the other sorcerer was at -9 and in the middle of melee combat when I waded through and healed him and kept him alive, so you didn't even come the closest to dying.

So then we move to board RP where the initial RP between you two is so sickeningly... this (http://www.xkcd.com/684/) and I joke that it's going to be unbearable and I might have to rub off one of the characters. B freaks out and is like "WHAT?!" and I go "No, seriously, let it go. It's a joke, I'm not going to do anything." Whatever. The worst part is she was talking about this character as if it was going to be "so much fun" to play this (in her words) annoying fairy-like creature and she was taking the "stick" spell literally so she could stick things to other PCs and generally be obnoxious. So I mention that her character is obnoxious and this puts her off roleplaying?

No. Honestly now I'm getting the 10th degree from her ("You don't like hanging out with me!" which is why I hang out with you twice a week excluding game and "you have it out for my boyfriend!" which is like, what?) and the 10th degree from her boyfriend ("You need to stop being an ass" um, er, maybe she could grow a thicker skin a bit? It's not like I'm targeting her or anything just joking about a character who's primary trait she TOLD ME was "to be annoying").

The combo platter is absurd, and I fear that their stupidity (and I swear to god I have no idea how either of them graduated from college... it is sheer and maddening the absurdly low levels of intelligence they display) is rubbing off on each other.

See, here's the deal: I was tired of playing the "goody two shoes" character. I had a Cleric who was constantly telling everyone else to stand back so he could take the hits. My last character was a Wizard who's primary job was to step into the middle of everything and act like a fighter so everyone else could sit in the back and feel safe. Both characters did pretty much everything they could to take care of the party.

The responses I got were amazing, to be honest. D had all of his characters attacking mine for various reasons, which was annoying. B was flipping out that I was angry about this, and throughout it all I still held my "no man left behind" philosophy. Eventually the campaign ended, and I thought to myself, "Man, I am tired of being the good guy." And it's true. I wanted to play a character who's response to seeing the party go down in flames wasn't "Alright, time to risk my ass to save everyone" but rather "Alright, time to figure out how to GTFO."

I warned everyone this change would be happening. That my new character was a bit of a jerk and was largely apathetic towards the whole party except the kobold sorcerer who, because of a backstory that had been worked out ahead of time, would be my companion.

And of course it catches everyone at the table by surprise. "OMG" they cry, "What did we do to piss off Superglucose?" Or more accurately, "OMG, what did D do to piss off Superglucose?" The answer? Nothing. I'm just not putting up with anything anymore. Instead of playing a character who's attitude is "Ok, I'll let it go." I'm playing a character who's attitude is "Do you want to try saying that to my face?"

Completely unsurprisingly it looks like there's instant conflict between me and D because suddenly I'm not just letting it go. Hell, I'm supposedly the "slave" to H's character, and I openly defy her frequently. I've called her character an idiot, wasteful, and a fool and that's just in one interaction.

So now B is QQing because "game isn't fun for me" (newsflash: it's never fun for you, and it's your own damn fault because you took the Gloaming race and then after I warned you three times, you still were upset when you couldn't hover or see in the dark. Now you're upset because your spells aren't what you want them to be as a sorcerer, and I find out that you're blatantly cheating by changing your spells whenever you want, and started the game without assigning feats.) How do you think everyone else at the table feels when we have to explain things for the umpteenth time?

In short? Over the last like half a month I have gone from crushing on B to being driven absolutely up the wall by her. Every time I'm around her I'm on goddamn eggshells and I can't handle that. Half the time her boyfriend opens his mouth I just want to punch him in the face. He's a smug git who makes decisions that honestly flummox me.

Well guess what D and B? I consider you guys friends (for god knows what reason) and I'm even helping you two move in. Why? Because once upon a time we got along. Once upon a time I felt like I could rely on one of you if I needed something. So every time you start complaining about me not wanting to hang out with you? Shut the hell up. I do so frequently. I even help you move. The next time you complain about how I'm "targeting" you at game? Close your mouth and think back to how many times I patiently answered your questions at game... questions that you could have easily answered by opening the stack of books in your lap or perhaps could have easily answered by remembering the answer I gave you last time.

Oh and here's a kicker: I decided for one game that I wasn't going to answer any questions. The bitching I got for that game was absurd. Yes, I know the rules to 3.5 In fact, I'm something of a rules lawyer... if we're going to set out ground rules I like them to be followed whenever it makes sense. Hell, this has been true for all my life: I memorized the rules to Skipbo and Uno and all those little card games just so I wouldn't have to break the flow of game to hunt down a simple question.

It doesn't mean I enjoy answering these questions.

In fact, I hate answering these questions. I took time out of my life to learn the rules to this game. I spent the effort, so I reap the reward of knowledge. When certain rules come up and they're looking for a quick answer ("doesn't that provoke an attack of opportunity?") I'll gladly give a yes or no answer. But when I'm explaining how Power Attack works for the umpteenth time, or explaining how using a concentration check to cast defensively works for the umpteenth time, it starts to get annoying. If you want to know the rules, do what I did: take the time to read up on them.

It's especially grating that neither of them come to game knowing their character's powers. I built a Druid. A summoning-focused druid. Do you know what I did to get ready for this? I looked online for a list of good practices for summoning-focused characters (like have the statblocks ready for frequent summons), and I made quintouply sure that I was reading the rules right. I double checked the rules for casting spells with casting times > 1 standard action, I double checked the range rules, I double checked casting defensively, I went through what weapons and armor my character could wield (and my animal companion), I checked and rechecked my racial bonuses, I made sure I knew what each of the spells on my list did, I worked out a couple of typical prep-lists, and I double checked the abilities my character got. Now, I'm pretty used to doing these, so that maybe tacked on an additional 15 minutes of time.

D and B? Well I was picking up B for game, and found out that she hadn't even written anything down! Not to mention she rolled 3 sets of stats (everyone else rolled 1) and refused to pick her feats (even NOW hasn't picked her feats). So we get to game, two weeks after she's said what character she was playing, and we have to wait 2 hours for her and her boyfriend to finish their characters. Just so you have a good timeframe on this, they posted on our RP boards three days before game with an interaction between their characters.

So it's not like they didn't know what they were playing. It's more like, they just twiddled on their thumbs RPing instead of actually finishing the characters that they said they were going to play. Which means we all get to start late and everyone around the table can idly chat about whatever while you finish, right? WRONG! No, because you guys join in the idle chatter without actually finishing the characters that you had two weeks to work on.

Maybe I'm insane and out of line, but I think it's a sign of respect to have that sort of thing ready by the time you make it to game. I do my leveling up outside of game (except HP rolls), because it's all pretty much chosen for me and I don't need to waste everyone's time with "weeee I'm taking empower spell and black tentacles and polymorph and my saves go up and my BAB goes up and I get a skill point in blah blah blah blah." And yes, I do prefer to optimize and it does annoy me a bit when your character is subop (blaster focused sorc? Ow. At least it's better than the Rogue/Wizard or the Drow fighter) but it's not a game breaker. I'm totally fine with the girl playing the Drow fighter! Do you know why?

Because when she arrived at game, the only thing she had to do was confirm a couple of items with the GM. Seriously. She just asked the GM in person if she could take some item, and the GM said "yes." End of the story there, 5 minutes in she was done.

So I just end up wanting to scream every time that B apologizes for having weak characters. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. What is bothering me is this:

After two weeks, you made two extra sets of stat rolls until you got ones you liked, then you spent time to roleplay with the new character, then with fifteen minutes to go asked me which spells you should take, then argued with me for five minutes about whether or not Glitterdust is a 2nd level spell (hint: it is), then got to game and were like, "Well I don't have my character ready" and then proceeded to spend two hours getting it ready. Then you didn't even pick your feats! You decided to wait to see which ones you wanted based on the campaign! News flash: EVERYONE ELSE PICKED THEIR FEATS (ok maybe not your boyfriend) BEFORE ROLLING THE FIRST INITIATIVE ROLL.

And out of all this she calls me a munchkin? No. A munchkin is someone who re-rolls stats to get better stats. A munchkin is someone who waits to pick their feats to see how the campaign is going to go. In short, a munchkin is a cheater, who takes underhanded tricks to make his character more powerful. You? You are a munchkin. A horrible munchkin who has the grasp on this game I would expect of a five-year-old, but a munchkin none the less.

So let me tell you now: B, you are officially uninvited from any game I ever run. It's not because you're not good at the game. It's not because your characters aren't pinnacles of optimization. It is because of this:

It is because I am tired of waiting for you. It is because I am sick of you rerolling things you're not supposed to reroll. It is because I am annoyed at the fact that you never pick feats. It is because I am disgusted that you do not know even the basics, nor do you take the time to learn them, of the class you intend to play. And it is because when I get frustrated at any of the above, you make me into the bad guy.

D? You're fine. My problems with you all stem from you having the social cognizance of a five-year-old. Whatever, that's part of who you are. You do have a semi-solid grasp of the rules (though based on some of the discussions we've had, your reading skills are suspect), and I really wish you could grow a thicker skin. And accept that most of your characters are pretty much bumbling clowns. Because let's be honest, they really, really are. But i also need you to get off my back about your girlfriend. When you start voicing her complaints to me? It makes me not respect either of you at all. When she starts voicing your complaints to me? It makes me not respect you at all.

And for those of you who will cry sexism, the reason I'm ok with B voicing D's complaints but not vica-versa is because B and I are, or rather were, much closer than D and I are. In my mind it's ok for a friend to voice an acquaintances complaints, but not ok for an acquaintance to voice a friend's complaints. Or at least more ok.

Phew. It was nice to get that out.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 01:49 AM
:smallfrown:

Hugs?

Kaun
2010-07-04, 01:55 AM
Jeez.

I just need a minirant. I take a bunch of crap from people and I know I deserve some of it (no one's perfect) but oh my god.


The mini part is a lie!!!

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 01:58 AM
The mini part is a lie!!!

Yes. But then so is the cake.

I'm sorry that these people are like this. Have you tried confronting them about it? I imagine you have or that it's not an option but I'd like to know the result anyway.

Superglucose
2010-07-04, 01:58 AM
Sorry. I should have clarified: mini doesn't refer to length, it refers to features. I didn't use different font sizes, links, images, or different colors. Therefore it is not a full rant :smallwink:

I'm thinking about doing it. I just dread the complaints and the argument that will come from it.

Evard
2010-07-04, 02:00 AM
I feel your pain, playing the "good one" will get you stepped all over by other players...

I had a cleric in 3.5 that was half elf that got walked all over cause he was "mr goodey two shoes" (lol) so half way through the campy I roleplayed that the half elf gained split personality and his old one was his "human side" and his new one was "elf side" ... the elf side being way more snobbish and uncaring. People got pissed cause I wouldn't heal them when they were down to 3/4 of their hp lol

Of course some people take roleplaying waaaay to serious -_-;;; They think if your character doesn't like their character then you hate them -_-;;;; sigh

PId6
2010-07-04, 02:00 AM
That sounds... extremely cathartic. You should definitely stand up to them openly rather than have it simmer inside or act in a passive-aggressive manner. You don't have to take crap from people just because you're friends; if they don't respect you, they don't deserve to be.

But yeah, the "mini" part is extremely misleading. :smallwink:

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 02:01 AM
I'm thinking about doing it. I just dread the complaints and the argument that will come from it.

Great victories require equally great risks.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-04, 02:05 AM
Minirant?

That was EPIC!

Two thumbs.

Oh, and my condolences.

Superglucose
2010-07-04, 02:09 AM
Like I said, a full rant would have swearing (board rules prevent this), multiple colors, font sizes, possibly links to youtube or various images, and generally have a harsher overtone. But thanks :smallredface:

Baalthazaq
2010-07-04, 02:22 AM
Minirant.

Fix'd.

Seriously though, I can see why you'd be frustrated. :)

Math_Mage
2010-07-04, 02:28 AM
Well, the first thing I did after reading this was go check my character's typical prep list and make sure I knew what everything did. So consider that a positive outcome of your rant. :smallsmile:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-04, 02:29 AM
Healers who don't like to heal (out of combat) = frown sauce for me, and probably for them, too, but that's a tiny thing.

We're obviously getting one side of the story here, and while I definitely feel your pain when it comes to many of your group's dynamics, some of these stories hint at something more going on.

I'll take two examples: Joking about killing the obnoxious character and refusing to answer rules questions. There could have been a lot of perceived malice coming from both of these incidences; their perceptions might be off, but considering the drama you've told us about you can at least see why they might assume you were that angry. I'm trying not to play armchair Freud here, but maybe they are.

My (completely ignorable) advice? Don't "confront" them about it directly unless you have to. Cool off, talk to your DM, and talk to other players. And don't just dis B and D behind their backs; ask for advice and gather other peoples' sentiments. They're going to be a lot more informed about your situation than we are, and they probably share at least some of your general grievances (IME new couples tend to disregard the rest of their personal relationships to an unhealthy and obnoxious degree, myself shamefully not excluded), and if that minirant was spot on or you're lucky you might be able to get a neutral party to take them to task instead of you. This might still cause drama, but it'll be a lot less than if you confront them.

Take care that this doesn't turn into passive aggressive behavior. If you have no support, don't push it. It likely means that the problem is specific to you and B/D, and you'll have to man up and calmly talk it over with them, perhaps with a third party moderating a discussion.

Last and most importantly, I hope this minirant never gets seen by anyone in your group but you. Try to make sure that's the case. And to repeat, when talking about this with your friends, calmness is key.

Superglucose
2010-07-04, 02:37 AM
Healers who don't like to heal (out of combat) = frown sauce for me, and probably for them, too, but that's a tiny thing.
We have a cleric in the party. I am not a healer.


Well, the first thing I did after reading this was go check my character's typical prep list and make sure I knew what everything did. So consider that a positive outcome of your rant. :smallsmile:

Yaaaaaay! You made my day!

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 02:42 AM
If it helps, I'm pretty prepared for sessions. I even had a backup character handy and If I don't know what an ability does I either write it down or write down what page it's on.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-07-04, 02:46 AM
Sounds like they deserve each other. I'd just as soon play a self-reliant character when in a game with them. Perhaps something absurd like a feral centaur monk so that you can carry away the cleric as you abandon the other two to their fate. :smalltongue:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-04, 03:39 AM
We have a cleric in the party. I am not a healer.A rogue with UMD in a party of Radiant Servants of Pelor can be a healer, but again, that's a very small thing. I've just played in a game where the Druid refused to heal, and it was annoying even after a cleric joined. Maybe that's just me.

For what it's worth, I come to games prepared and make characters that work with the party mechanically, in character, and (when I know ahead of time) to the other players' tastes. I've suffered through most of your game-related problems, but usually on separate occasions and without all the major drama. I'm sure most of us have, so we feel your pain, or at least some of it.

Superglucose
2010-07-04, 03:44 AM
A rogue with UMD in a party of Radiant Servants of Pelor can be a healer, but again, that's a very small thing. I've just played in a game where the Druid refused to heal, and it was annoying even after a cleric joined. Maybe that's just me.
I made a druid and made it very clear that I was not a healer. I bought myself wands of Cure Minor and Lesser Vigor, making it very clear that I'm going to use them sparingly for some out of combat healing.

So yes, I am loath to use my personal resources to heal the party like that. I believe I am going to start charging them for the price of the charge now that we got our hands on some loot. Healing wands should come from party funds. If they wanted healing, they could have purchased wands: I'd be perfectly willing to use them for them.



For what it's worth, I come to games prepared and make characters that work with the party mechanically, in character, and (when I know ahead of time) to the other players' tastes. I've suffered through most of your game-related problems, but usually on separate occasions and without all the major drama. I'm sure most of us have, so we feel your pain, or at least some of it.
Was given the ok by everyone, and everyone was excited to have this character.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-04, 03:50 AM
Was given the ok by everyone, and everyone was excited to have this character.I was referring to the characters who've attacked and taken advantage of your goodie two shoes characters, plus the cheating... but B/D were excited to play with the character they'd later complain about?

Rothen
2010-07-04, 03:58 AM
Play an Incantatrix, show them all!
Alternatively, play a Warblade and Iron Heart Surge them away. :smallamused:

"Your lack of rules knowledge negatively effects my character! Iron Heart Surge!"

I hope you get the problems with your friends worked out. It sounds like there's more going on than just a bad gaming group.

nyjastul69
2010-07-04, 04:10 AM
Why play in this game? These aren't issues, they're volumes. I'd find another game or stop playing.

Superglucose
2010-07-04, 04:11 AM
There is... a bit more to it. Gloaming are fascinated with planetouched, and I'm playing a Lesser Asimar (she's playing a Lesser GLoaming, and let me tell you in case you didn't know, Gloaming are terrible. Lesser Gloaming are fine, but wow...) so part of it was she was excited (particularly with my description of the character being so... handsome) about the roleplay options.

That she never takes because she never posts anymore.

Plus there's this weird-standing thing where B expects me to treat her like she was my girlfriend. Me and my friends joke that she's my "girlfriend without benefits" (the reverse of a "friend with benefits"). She also has a habit of building things up in her head to a certain level and if everything's not perfect she just lets it all come crumbling down, if that makes sense.

D just blindly follows B. He's more of a warm body, as it were. As much as I don't like the guy, I don't envy his position. He's too thick-headed to get out though so whatever.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-04, 05:55 AM
*snip*

I've Been there before at different parts, but not all together. Sorry about that. I think it's more the combination of it all that's the large issue. Generally playing the nice guy can become a problem, as the players themselves may start to suspect that as a general trait in you, rather than the character and go from there. It's that type of thing that both reminds me and bothers me about my friends who won't play wizards because they don't feel up to stuff on it intellectually, but that's elsewhere.

Your refusal to not answering questions and its reaction reinforce this in my mind, but you may be able to ween them off of relying on you for things. Start giving page numbers, if possible, or simply give a "I dunno, but I think it's in Complete Shenanigans."

I can feel for you on the Druid list, but they may be looking for something more freeform than anything with solid crunch. It probably won't hurt to ask. If not, you could maybe try another game which no one knows about. That could go back and teach them to actually learn, too.

The pot calling the kettle black when it is in fact white is also "lolwut." "Munchkin" does have the unfortunate stigma of cheating to it, but she may not of meant it in that manner. Just reading this, it's a non-zero possibility. :smalltongue: I have had people look at me as if I'm some idiot before for telling that that Great Cleave = entry feat, ONLY right after another player who believes monks are teh UBER over wizardssaid "[Thrice Dead Cat] can turn even a wizard into a melee monstrosity." These two players happen to agree with each other on the feat, however after I did some alternate suggestions for class and feats.


So, yeah, shame to hear that Superglucose. Hearing this almost makes me think at times that friends shouldn't game together. It's not that people you RP with cannot be your friends: they simply couldn't have been your friends previously, in a general sense. It's not a definite answer, but I suspect that it holds for at least some plurality of nonoverlapping friends vs. people you should/should not game with statement list.

Also, hugs are in order.

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-04, 06:28 AM
I won't hug you. I don't hug. I'll gladly give you a warm handshake and a friendly pat on the back tho. For a moment, I thought you might be someone from my old group, the way your talking, but then I remembered that none of them would take the time to learn silly things like rules.

Anyways. I hope you're able to resolve yer troubles. Good Luck :smallsmile:

BobVosh
2010-07-04, 07:43 AM
I had a group like this once, now I no longer do. I have become much happier.

As the semi-official "rules-guy" at the game I feel your pain. I don't hug anymore...not since the...incident, so I shall refer you to Kyuubi for any hugs you seek to gain from me.

That said giving page numbers, urls (if you use laptops), or flat out saying to look it up worked reasonably well for me in the past to stop people from asking the same questions over and over.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-04, 10:40 AM
Is there a particular reason you are not showing this to the players in question? It seems that, while it may cause drama, it is probably something they need to hear.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 05:13 PM
As the semi-official "rules-guy" at the game I feel your pain. I don't hug anymore...not since the...incident, so I shall refer you to Kyuubi for any hugs you seek to gain from me.
.

Hugs all around!

except for the people who don't want them.

I do hope things get better. That's about all I can say at this point.

Dust
2010-07-04, 06:02 PM
While I enjoyed your minirant, I have a query and an observation.

It seems to me that D and B are really only interesting in RPing with one another, which is why your actions are so incredibly shocking to them. Let me try and give an example for this.

Hypothetical Situation A
Two characters are highly focused upon the story and telling an epic story with everyone involved. They enjoy combat and rp and overcoming the odds. The third character is terrified of all interactions - he flees from combat and cowers at trouble, and does not contribute to the story. This is unusual to the group, as the third player has always been 'one of them' up until now. His new character grates on everyone's nerves because his goals are so different from the others. This group will not get along, and there seems to be no way of resolving the difference other than players making concessions and changing their concepts slightly to fit better with one another. This could even lead to out-of-game issues.


Not-so Hypothetical Situation B
Two characters are highly focused upon one another. This game is their romance, a chance to explore a sexy relationship between their two in-game avatars. They enjoy rp with one another and very little else. Since the players aren't the brightest Crayola in the box, playing a two-person game of kissy-face for hours is more than enough to keep them occupied. The third character is a bit of a jerk - he does not go out of his way to make sure the couple's relationship is never at jeopardy due to an untimely death caused by monsters or traps. This is unusual to the group, as the third player has always been 'one of them' up until now. His new character grates on everyone's nerves because his goals are so different from the others. This group will not get along, and there seems to be no way of resolving the difference other than players making concessions and changing their concepts slightly to fit better with one another. This could even lead to out-of-game issues.


While you completely have my sympathies (hell, I'm annoyed on your behalf) you have to look at this from a different perspective - namely, maybe you've grown apart from these two if they're growing together into something that excludes....you know, FUN.

veovius
2010-07-04, 07:22 PM
Plus there's this weird-standing thing where B expects me to treat her like she was my girlfriend. Me and my friends joke that she's my "girlfriend without benefits" (the reverse of a "friend with benefits"). She also has a habit of building things up in her head to a certain level and if everything's not perfect she just lets it all come crumbling down, if that makes sense.

D just blindly follows B. He's more of a warm body, as it were. As much as I don't like the guy, I don't envy his position. He's too thick-headed to get out though so whatever.

^This - Sounds like a picture-perfect description of a good friend of mine (played by D) and his latest in a series of almost-identical <airquote>relationships<endquote> (Played by B). The females think that everyone exists to serve them, and when things don't go their way, they pount and whine till it does, usually at the expense of others, ala D. My version of D, is a great guy normally, but he gets completely sucked in by a female with baggage, that he's there 100% of the time for 100% of her needs with 100% of the money. It's sick, and the worst part is that he can't see he's being completely used. Even worse, there's two other guys on the hook with the same female, and they all talk to each other!! It blows my mind!!!

Ahem...sorry, -endminirant- your situation just strikes a very close chord with mine. As far as how I'm dealing with it...after trying to warn him off soulsucking moneypits, and watching him go from one to the next to the next, I kinda gave up.... Hope you fare better.

Superglucose
2010-07-05, 04:56 AM
I am going to respond with books, chapters (I don't do page numbers by heart, sorry) and "look it up" from now on.