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View Full Version : Why would a god ever make a deal with a devil?



stenver
2010-07-04, 03:58 AM
The story, Problem is below
I have a campaign, where the elves ruled the world and forced their faith on everyone. However, thousand years of supremacy is slowly crumbling and rebellions are taking place across the whole world. New nations, gods and sects appear daily and are brutally slaughtered and beat down by elven army daily.

But 1 nation managed to beat back the elven army and has now been independent for 5 years. Its a colorful nation, full of variety of races and cultures. The people mostly united under the banner of 1 god: Called "The Lord". He is a monotheism kind of god which in turn has made the local government(which is very fractured and only in its base of power, has a strong influence) spread the new faith across the world and beating down other religions.

My players started as elves, they then decided mid game that elves are not for them and hoped to find a new and better world in the now free state. They began building their own armies and spreading their influence there. However, its a harsh world and they barely could stay together having vastly different views of the world and eventually they all managed to kill themselves. Except 1. An Orc. Orc Psion Warrior/Eye of Gruumsh.

Now he had been roleplaying the character as a very single minded and paranoid and distrusting of all other races except greenskins. Going from this, all the old players were introduced into the game as ambassadors from the other orc clans to observe the new Orc Champion to judge weather he truly is the new leader of the people. Since the world has been under the influence of the elven gods for so long and now "The Lord" religion is tampering the new spread of Gruumsh religion, Gruumsh is a weak god, because he doesnt have that many followers.

The problem
And this is where the problem comes. I considered Gruumsh to be a boring god. SMASH SMASH SMASH is not interesting. I read about Gruumsh all around and that didnt help either. But because the game suddenly turned into Gruumsh Campaign, i was forced to deal with it.

So i decided to spice things up. Gruumsh, weak as he was, finally, for the first time in history, understood that he needed help!

He made a deal with Asmodeus, the lord of the ninth circle of Hell. Asmodeus helps him conquer the world and in turn.. well thats what i want to talk about.

The players visit Gruumsh realm from time to time, to consolate with Gruumsh. They see Asmodeus as a dark figure standing behind the shadow of Gruumsh in Gruumsh realm. And as campaiqn progresses, i thought that slowly the dark figure comes out of the shadow, revealing him self, standing next to the Gruumsh. Finally he comes infront of the Gruumsh, doing the talk himself, directly guiding players.

However. Who contacted who first, the Asmodeus seeing Gruumsh in trouble, or did Gruumsh summon him? What were the terms of the contract. What is the loophole in the contract?

Asmodeus plans to send his aspect to the material world, to turn the world into the next circle of hell. The world is a young one. Summon spells dont work on outsiders and many spells, like Gate and Resurrection havent yet been discovered. Necromancy school is banned right out of the box, as Elven masters didnt practice such vile magic. However, a lot of people are researching them and players task from gruumsh and Asmodeus mostly stands in gathering information from various sources to figure out the new spells, so they could summon the Devil Horde and help Orcs conquer the world.

Even that task is not yet certain. Right now the players havent yet found out the plan to summon devils army, so i could change that too.

The question
So what would be a cool and exciting deal Gruumsh and Asmodeus would make that ultimately forced players to choose weather to help turn the material plane into hell or stand up against the hell it self.

How would Asmodeus betray the big dumb Gruumsh, how would he take over the lead?

Could Gruumsh have any of his own cunning plans?

This is a very high powered campaign and im ready to take it as far as make players fight gods and asmodeus himself. Maybe one of the players could even eventually become a god, after Gruumsh has been betrayed and weakened and after that players manage to beat Asmodeus, if not outright kill him and find themselves a huge number of fans(worshippers)

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 04:28 AM
manage to beat Asmodeus, if not outright kill him

Uh oh. Not good.

Huge can of worms=opened.

EDIT: gods and Arch devils are at least CR 80 last I checked. They might be able to kill the aspects but unless you really want your players high enough level to deal with CR of that high I suggest you abandon them trying to kill an archdevil and an evil god.

DOUBLE EDIT: Unless you play Asmodeus as a moron, short of the players becoming overdeities they can't really deal with him. He will see them coming weeks in advance and create contingency upon contingency to deal with them in case things go south. That's the entire idea behind the character. You might want to go with a demon lord instead unless you really just don't care about canon.

Evard
2010-07-04, 04:38 AM
When Gruumish dies from the betrayal make his final act, activating a powerful artifact. Let him activate a item that will give the party a HUGE boost in power like say level 60 ;) or make them gods or the such you know... to fight the archdevil :D

stenver
2010-07-04, 04:42 AM
Well maybe then they wont kill deity or archlord. I could keep it with aspects only. Besides, battle with a devil isnt supposed to be easy one and you can only keep 1 contingency active at a time, no? Last i checked, any of the devils cant help him out there either and of course, if players go up against an archdevil, it is only with help of another deity or archdevil. For example, teaming up with Memphisto to go against Asmodeus. Maybe they will decide to team up with the Asmodeus all togather, so thats really not a problem right now.

Right now im more interested in figuring out the problem at hand, not future problems. Like. Deal between Asmodeus and Gruumsh.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 04:49 AM
Not contingency as in the spell. Contingency as in "Okay, if this plan goes wrong I have this one, this one, this one, this one, and this one to fall back on."

There's also the fact that every drop of Asmodeus's blood spawns a pit fiend (The Archdevil himself, not his Aspect) Archdevils, gods, demon lords, deities and whatever the Yugoloth version of arch demons are are just out of a normal character's league.

I think you should just do aspects. The only way players can deal with Asmodeus is if you play him out of canon and if they're either ludicrously high levels or have a Massive DMPC to help them. Also, if the Lord of hell is going to get into a fight, other devils, including Arch devils can help him.

And give Asmodeus's aspect a haircut so that he doesn't look like a clown.

Maybe Asmodeus asks for Gruumsh's help in the blood war? I think dealing with that is one of Asmodeus's current goals.

EDIT: Bel's Aspect is CR 20. I think your players have the highest chance of beating him due to that. Granted I haven't looked at his or the other Archdevil's abilities but considering the others (Other than Fierna but she comes with Belial who's CR 21) are all hgiher CR than him I'd go with him.

stenver
2010-07-04, 05:01 AM
According to the Fiendish Codex 2, the Asmodeus ultimate plan is to take over Material plane, make it into another Hell. From there he will become strong enough to face his foes.

He will then proceed to propose a peace to demons(Even though he knows it will be very short lived) and assault the Upper Planes together with demons. He knows that without the blood war to keep demons at bay, the upper planes stand no chance. After upper planes have been annihilated and turned into hell, he will proceed with the blood war.

Also, he strives to become a god. His army doesnt participate in the Blood war.
But every other lord army does

I very much like that plan. Fits my setting perfectly. I also like that almost every other lord in the hell is out to get Asmodeus. So theres plenty of room to play around that later.

Help in blood war.. its interesting idea.. Lying to Gruumsh that in turn for his help, Gruumsh must help him in blood war.. I must only think what is the "Hidden line" in the contract. Right now im off to work.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 05:04 AM
Let one or two of the good gods get away. Whichever ones you like best. Then it gives you a campaign hook in case your players want to play a good aligned campaign. Or you could kill them all but I think that would make everybody in the universe lawful evil since every other alignment would be destroyed. That is if he goes after the neutral aligned planes. Which, if the upper planes, the abyss, Gehenna and the prime are now parts of hell is much more likely

Also, that never made sense to me. Each plane has an infinite amount of outsiders but they produce them at different rates? why?

molten_dragon
2010-07-04, 05:18 AM
EDIT: gods and Arch devils are at least CR 80 last I checked. They might be able to kill the aspects but unless you really want your players high enough level to deal with CR of that high I suggest you abandon them trying to kill an archdevil and an evil god.

I'm not sure what stats you're looking at for Asmodeus. The version of him in the Book of Vile Darkness (which according to the Fiendish Codex is not an aspect, but his true form) is only CR 32. He's out of reach if you're not going epic, but if you're planning on playing an epic game, he's not all that tough compared to some of the epic critters out there.

The only WotC official stats I know of for Gruumsh are the 3.0 stats in Deities and Demigods. He's considerably tougher than Asmodeus, being a level 38 character with 20 outsider hit dice stacked on top of that. That's not even counting his divine ranks.

As far as the relationship between Asmodeus and Gruumsh goes, maybe Gruumsh is weakened at the moment (very few divine ranks) and is hoping to get help to return to his former glory. He's asked Asmodeus for help, and realizes that as soon as he returns to his former level of power, he can break whatever deal they had going and betray the archdevil. Asmodeus expects treachery, and is planning to betray Gruumsh first, hoping to set himself up as the new god of orcs. The PC could help either one, or go further and plan a betrayal of his own and a bid for ascension.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-04, 05:23 AM
I'm not sure what stats you're looking at for Asmodeus. The version of him in the Book of Vile Darkness (which according to the Fiendish Codex is not an aspect, but his true form) is only CR 32. He's out of reach if you're not going epic, but if you're planning on playing an epic game, he's not all that tough compared to some of the epic critters out there.

I was basing it off the CR I saw of a lesser deity which was in triple digits. I didn't know which book Asmodeus was actually statted out in so I just made an assumption. Guess I was wrong. Again.

You're still probably not going to kill the guy without going outside of Canon. You'd have to have mental stats above Intelligence 30 and Wisdom 34 to even have a chance of outsmarting him I'd think.

EDIT: Which books does it detail Bel and Fierna's relationship in? I have a plan that will never work.
double edit: Daww, no pictures of Glasya or Malcanthet in the BOVD (That I could find). Me sad. Oh, and I think Asmodeus has grown in power somewhat. BOVD is before Glasya took control of the sixth layer of hell because her daddy let her IIRC.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-04, 05:32 AM
CR is so hard to estimate when you get to those levels anyway. It's not necessarily a good estimate of the creature's actual challenge.

Acanous
2010-07-04, 06:05 AM
I like the "Orcs have to fight in the blood war" trick. It allows Asmodeus a direct line on how many followers Gruumsh has at any one point in time.

Is Gruumsh starting to get more powerful than Asmodeus likes? Well that's not a problem, requisition some orks to hell, have them die fighting demons. Their souls are already in hell at that point, so not only does that weaken Gruumsh, it boosts Asmodeus' power as well.

Freeing Orc souls from hell might even be a plot point later (They aren't Lawful Evil so shouldn't be there. But like the Devils are going to give them up without a convincing argument)

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 06:22 AM
I was basing it off the CR I saw of a lesser deity which was in triple digits. I didn't know which book Asmodeus was actually statted out in so I just made an assumption. Guess I was wrong. Again.

Epic handbook has most deities in the CR range of 40-60.

Asmodeus was first stated in Book of Vile Darkness and indeed has CR 32. However it also hints that it probably isn't the true Asmodeus because the other archdevils had ganked him once, thinking they had killed him and then Asmodeus appears again.

Fiendish codex, more recent, further supports that Asmodeus is a master of trickery and deceit and never reveals himself, while his manifestations and clones are good enough to fool even gods and the book writers.

One third party material states him at CR 80 something. I don't remember any book with triple digit CRs besides one third party material book that does it more for a joke than anything else from what I glimpsed.



You're still probably not going to kill the guy without going outside of Canon. You'd have to have mental stats above Intelligence 30 and Wisdom 34 to even have a chance of outsmarting him I'd think.

Well, what we have here is clearly another aspect of Asmodeus supporting Grumush while the true Asmodeus is still in his 9th layer of Hell. That aspect may be weak enough for the party to take on. Who knows, perhaps Asmodeus wants it to be taken out!



EDIT: Which books does it detail Bel and Fierna's relationship in? I have a plan that will never work.
double edit: Daww, no pictures of Glasya or Malcanthet in the BOVD (That I could find). Me sad. Oh, and I think Asmodeus has grown in power somewhat. BOVD is before Glasya took control of the sixth layer of hell because her daddy let her IIRC.

That relation is expanded in Fiendish Codex. And Asmodeus is stated as always being growing in power, biding his time and building up forces untill he can overrun the good aligned planes.

Runestar
2010-07-04, 07:34 AM
Dicefreaks has homebrew stats of the various devil princes, Asmodeus weighs in at cr81, though by their admission, his cr may be somewhat higher than his stats suggest (anything past cr40 is pretty much hit and miss if you ask me). :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-07-04, 12:08 PM
Help in blood war.. its interesting idea.. Lying to Gruumsh that in turn for his help, Gruumsh must help him in blood war.. I must only think what is the "Hidden line" in the contract. Right now im off to work.Easy.

In the contract, he's conquering the material plane for Gruumsh. Nowhere in there, however, does it say he's going to give it back to Gruumsh when he's done.

mabriss lethe
2010-07-04, 01:11 PM
Easy.

In the contract, he's conquering the material plane for Gruumsh. Nowhere in there, however, does it say he's going to give it back to Gruumsh when he's done.

better yet. He's conquering it "In the name of Gruumsh." As long as he keeps saying he's doing it for Gruumsh, Asmodeus can do pretty much what he pleases.

hamishspence
2010-07-04, 01:34 PM
Deities & Demigods doesn't actually give Challenge Ratings.

Call of Cthulhu D20 does- and they tend to be fairly low. Even the 72 HD Greater Deity Azathoth is only CR 50.

So just because a deity has 60 Hit dice (20 Outsider 20 Class A 20 Class B) and is a greater deity- doesn't mean it will be CR 60+.

Randel
2010-07-04, 01:46 PM
Idea:

If its not possible to summon fiends and outsiders and Gruumsh wants orcs to conquer the world... maybe find a way to turn orcs into a type of fiend?

If each drop of Asmodeus blood turns into a pit fiend when spilled then maybe Asmodeus could create an elixer or something which will turn an orc into a powerful fiend when they drink it.

Thus Gruumsh's followers are transformed from standard orcs into incredibly powerful monsters (but not so monsterous that they are obviously different than what they once were. They could just be bigger, strionger and tougher with troll-like regeneration and immunity to fire and acid or something.) The orcs are thus transformed into a new breed of fiend who can conquer the world with their increased strength.

In addition, Asmodeus supplies some extra weapons and beasts and supplies and such... or the orcs can use the elixer to transform horses into giant fiend beasts or transform other animals into fiends.

Asmodeus basically gives Gruumsh and his followers some cool powers and weapons which if used will slowly turn the orcs and the world into a Circle of Hell by themselves. At first the orcs would get some cool stuff and use it to walk all over their enemies, the enemies get some stuff to counter that (maybe holy weapons granted by a rival god, or Asmodeus is playing both sides), then the orcs as Asmodeus for some more and the war escalates. By the time Gruumsh and the orcs finally win then the whole material plane will have been transformed into a Circle of Hell by the war. Then, Asmodeus can walk into the new Hell World and declare himself the ruler of it all. All the orcs turned into fiends will be under his control (as the elixer contains some of his blood, he can control their minds as souls as he wishes) and he has his own limitless armies back in Hell to mop up anyone who opposes him.


He also provides spells, magic, and secrets to causing permanant geological magic effects. Maybe a way to mass-ressurect the dead or something like that (Build a temple where all the loyal orcs who died under Gruumsh are instantly ressurected... or maybe they come back as fiends or undead or soemthing). However, all the necromantic or summoning spells and magic effects that Asmodeus gives will slowly alter the world to turn it into Hell. Hell is a world where the inhabitants do not suffer from hunger, they do not fear death, and they all obey the commands of their powerful overseers.

It could very well be that all the other circles of hell were worlds populated with creatures similar to the humans, elves and orcs... but Asmodeus tempted them with powerful weapons, resurrection and necromantic magic, and other powers that had devastated their worlds, warped their minds and bodies, and changed their world in such a way that he could enter and rule over them all.

stenver
2010-07-04, 02:35 PM
Okei, im starting to get the picture.

Im thinking that Asmodeus made a pact with Gruumsh, that goes as follows:
Asmodeus helps Gruumsh. He supplies the Orcs with magical weapons, armor and equipment. He also empowers orcs with his divine powers, so raw recruits can skip years of training and can become able warriors in days(somewhere 6-10 level. In my world, you can get levels with training as well. Army isnt full of level 1 guys, but mostly level 4-8. That, of course, requires years of training)

In return, Gruumsh needs to help Asmodeus in Blood war, sending his troops to hell after material plane has been conquered. Deal states that Gruumsh needs to help Asmodeus conquer at least 2 layers of abyss.

That makes the deal look real enough, so Gruumsh thinks that Asmodeus really needs help in Blood War.

The Gruumsh
His plan is to use all the help Asmodeus can offer and when material plane is surely under his control, send Asmodeus back to where he came from.

The master deceiver, Asmodeus
Phase one:
First the Summon spells need to be researched by mortals, so he can gain contact with material plane. Somehow other planes cant access material plane, unless someone from there specifically calls them. Summoning has been done before, but after the Great Demon War, summoning was banned and the knowledge is hard to come by. Thats where Gruumsh champions come in. He plays nice with Gruumsh and offers him strategic guidance. Gruumsh is a good friend in this phase.

Phase two:
Gruumsh army gets shiny stuff from Gruumsh. Asmodeus, however makes equipment deliveries very slowly and says to the Gruumsh that a permanent link to the Hell should be made, so Gruumsh followers wouldnt need to summon devils individually.
Gruumsh probably has some bad things to say about that, but eventually, if Gruumsh understands how slowly the deliveries are coming, then he will establish a permanent link to the hell.

Phase Three:
Now that permanent link has been made, the devils start sneaking into the material world and establishing portals all over

Phase Four:
Asmodeus should have a few portals around the world by then. His devils start making deals around the world with all kinds of organisations, and most important of all, he will find an enemy to Gruumsh and then supply them with weapons.
When Gruumsh sees that his untrained army, even with good equipment, struggles to, stand against the enemy, he will probably state that Asmodeus has to make his army strong, according to the deal. Asmodeus states that he can only do that, if every one of the orcs, who needs to become strong, sign a special contract.
Any soul that signs the contract, is damned to hell. However, they really do get a few level ups.

Phase five:
Enjoy the show, how Gruumsh seriously weakens the Great Elven Empire, The Drow Empire and most of all, wait till he has annihilated the Elven Death Legion, The thousand year old veteran legion, strongest legion of the Elven Empire, that defeated the Demon Horde turing the Great Demon War. Asmodeus fears that army.
Then, not too late, not too soon, release the devil horde upon the material world, and collect every poor orc soul that signed the contract

What do you think? PEACH!

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 03:50 PM
So just because a deity has 60 Hit dice (20 Outsider 20 Class A 20 Class B) and is a greater deity- doesn't mean it will be CR 60+.

However, nowhere it says that the usual challenge rating rules don't apply to them. So if a god has 40 class levels in total, he's at least CR 40, and those 20 outsider HD togheter with the divine abilities are easily worth another 10-20 CR.

hamishspence
2010-07-04, 03:56 PM
In theory- however due to the action economy, and the natural way casters and noncasters work- a Wiz20/Fighter20, is much weaker than, say, a Wiz 40.

Unfortunately the CR system doesn't take that into account.

The closest thing to that is "nonassociated class levels" which might (combined with Outsider Hit Dice being considered fairly weak on their own) bring the CR down a bit.

If the 20 HD of outsider give 10 points of CR, the wizard levels are considered associated, and the fighter levels nonassociated, then (before divine abilities are taken into account) the 20/20 deity with 20 Outsider Hit Dice, becomes CR 40.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 04:04 PM
In theory- however due to the action economy, and the natural way casters and noncasters work- a Wiz20/Fighter20, is much weaker than, say, a Wiz 40.

That's not because of action economy. That's because epic magic is the brokenst. Action advantage means nothing when your oponent defenses are basically untouchable and and his attacks one shot you. What would you say it's actualy stronger, two 20th level wizards or one single 22th level wizard with acess to epic magic?



Unfortunately the CR system doesn't take that into account.

It does. It just assumes all classes are as strong as each other. If a wizard level increased CR more than a fighter level then it would be the designers admiting they screwed up.



The closest thing to that is "nonassociated class levels" which might (combined with Outsider Hit Dice being considered fairly weak on their own) bring the CR down a bit.

What? Outsider HD gives full saves, BAB and 8 skill points per level. The only one that may be best is the dragon HD.



If the 20 HD of outsider give 10 points of CR, the wizard levels are considered associated, and the fighter levels nonassociated, then (before divine abilities are taken into account) the 20/20 deity with 20 Outsider Hit Dice, becomes CR 40.

Except that nonassociated class levels need to be nonassociated. Are you sugesting that a deity would take 20 class levels of something they aren't associated with? Hextor doesn't take 20 levels of fighter just for the lulz. He takes 20 levels of fighter because he's a martial god as well a clerical god.

hamishspence
2010-07-04, 04:07 PM
What? Outsider HD gives full saves, BAB and 8 skill points per level. The only one that may be best is the dragon HD.

Weak compared to character levels- especially caster levels.

Even with dragons- a dragon with 20 HD tends to have a CR of less than 20.


Except that nonassociated class levels need to be nonassociated. Are you sugesting that a deity would take 20 class levels of something they aren't associated with?

Usually a creature (such as an Outsider) has only one associated class- the others are all nonassociated.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 04:15 PM
Weak compared to character levels- especially caster levels.

Even with dragons- a dragon with 20 HD tends to have a CR of less than 20.

The 20 outsider dice of gods however come with several handy divine abilities, obscene ability scores and SLAs up to 9th level. Even if you stripped the class levels a deity surely wouldn't just be CR 10. Heck, I would even say that some of them would be CR 20 like the ones that get miracle SLA at will.



Usually a creature (such as an Outsider) has only one associated class- the others are all nonassociated.

Hmm, no. Some monsters have favored classes but that only applies for multiclassing exp penalty. Associated class is any class that plays directly to the monster's strenghts and nonassociated is any class that doesn't play directly to the monster's strenghts. Hextor for example, being a god of war and evil, is associated with both fighter and cleric.

Crafty Cultist
2010-07-04, 11:27 PM
Generally cosmic powers are over the pc's head. you should focus on the players trying to foil their plans rather than fighting them. there are limits to how much the gods and arch feinds can influence the mortal world, and the players should use that to their advantage.

As for the plans of gruumsh and asmodaeus, here are a few of my thoughts.


*souls are a source of power to feindish powers, so maybe that could be a part of their plot

*Maybe asmodaeus could have gruumsh unknowingly destroying cosmic keystone that keep the forces of hell from the material plane. Gruumsh tries to improve his standing as a god, but in the process lets asmodaeus invade the material plane and cut off all gods from their followers

Optimystik
2010-07-04, 11:32 PM
4e already made Grummsh less boring, by merging him with Talos. Both are one-eyed and highly destructive.

This gave Grummsh a lot of cool portfolios he didn't have before, like nature/lightning, and it actually makes sense that they could be the same god. I would retro a similar change back to 3.5.

Coidzor
2010-07-04, 11:33 PM
Gruumsh wants a world where Orcs are ascendant rather than piddly like they are everywhere else in the multiverse, in exchange, the souls of all non-orcy inhabitants of the plane go directly into Asmodeus's coffers. And with orcs in charge, the lives of all are going to be nasty, brutish, and short. I imagine at some point they'd take to raising tritons and seaelves for their bones to make totems and crafts out of, considering them more valuable than the bones of terrestrial creatures.

Anyhoo, since Asmodeus is the last layer of Baator... You ain't killing him anymore than you're killing Mechanus by turning it into giant robot mode.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 03:49 AM
I am disappointed as to all this why would an evil god make a deal with a devil. Way to boring, of course evil would strike a deal with evil. Let me tell you a tale [from my own setting] as to why a good god made a deal with a devil.

Lets take the cast, first we have Kalar God of Justice. He is your a-typical god of paladins and other lawful good crusaders of good types.

Then we have Garthos god of slaughter, the pinnacle of chaotic evil. His goals are to fill the world with suffering, destruction and death and there is no shortage of psychos willing to heed that call.

Our last player is the devil in question, well half devil.
Hiraxis Blackhand was a half-fiend of great power, his father a devil of somekind. He ascended to demi-godhood as payment for destroying the godslayer sword.

Now these two gods have been at each others throats for eons. Garthos even severed Kalar's right hand and wore it around his neck.

At the end of the Old One War, numerous kingdoms through out the world collapsed, including The Great Kingdom. Once peaceful lands were overrun by feuding warlords and generals each trying to carve out their own tiny nation. Garthos fed the bloodlust, villages burned and cities crumbled. In turn the slaugher fueled Garthos.

Despite all the efforts of Kalar's clergy they could not bring peace to those shattered lands and the corruption of Garth's bloodlust was spreading. The paladin god in his despair for one moment felt as if he would do almost anything to end the suffering.

It's at this point in our story that along comes a spider, Hiraxis. The half-fiend demi-god of tyranny had kept a shard of the godslayer sword, he approached Kalar and offered him the shard, in exchange Kalar must use the shard to slay Garthos. If Kalar was to impale the shard into Garthos it would cause him a grievous wound.

Such a drastic and dangerous option had been considered by Kalar before. But Garthos was a rival of equal power. He could not be certain of victory and if Garthos prevailed the world would be consumed in blood. But with a shard of the godslayer sword he could tip the balance in his favor.

Kalar agreed to Hiraxis's terms, in his moment of grief he thought it was a win-win situation. He removed a dangerous artifact from an evil demi-gods possession and removed Garthos forever.

Hiraxis also paid Garthos a visit. He told the slaughter lord that Kalar was planning to kill him. He offered Garthos another shard from the godslayer sword. He told Garthos that the shard would increase his defense against other divine foes. In reality possessing the shard would greatly weaken him. Kalar would have little trouble landing blows.

Hiraxis stacked the deck in Kalar's favor, but Garthos was strong the centuries of civil war and slaughter.

The battle was mighty and waged through the outerplanes, in the end Kalar was victorious he slew the god of slaughter and took back his severed hand.
Gartho's body fell through a dozen layers of abyss before passing into the astral plane. It was there Hiraxis retrieved the shards he loaned out, one from Gartho's heart the other from his pocket.

With Garthos dead the bloodlust he provided faded scattered warbands became unified and slowly stability began to spread. It was then Hiraxis and his clergy made his move.

Hiraxis used the aftermath of the slaughter Garthos was causing to secure his own rise to power. He promised people order, security and peace, and all he asked in return was their utter obedience to their government, For he did not work directly, his clergy whispered in the ears of Kings promising them divine support and the loyalty of the people and most importantly power should they support his church.

So here we have a story, a Good deity strikes a bargain with a devil, he does so out of the desire to do good. And like all stories where one makes a deal with the devil it comes back to bite him on the ass. He may have destroyed Garthos but he helped create a much more dangerous evil.


As its much easier to impose Tyranny and lawful evil order if the people willingly gives themselves to it.
"So This is How Liberty Dies…With Thunderous Applause"

stenver
2010-07-05, 03:51 AM
Yeah, the deal could also state that orcs are going to rule the material world and in exchange, every other races soul goes to hell.

Of course, Asmodeus plans to kill off all the orcs and lets only those orc rule the world, who swear alligence to him.



*souls are a source of power to feindish powers, so maybe that could be a part of their plot

*Maybe asmodaeus could have gruumsh unknowingly destroying cosmic keystone that keep the forces of hell from the material plane. Gruumsh tries to improve his standing as a god, but in the process lets asmodaeus invade the material plane and cut off all gods from their followers

Please at least read my last post before posting the exact same suggestion with different words.

stenver
2010-07-05, 04:01 AM
I am disappointed as to all this why would an evil god make a deal with a devil. Way to boring, of course evil would strike a deal with evil. Let me tell you a tale [from my own setting] as to why a good god made a deal with a devil.


Its a good story, but really, i had no other choice.

The players chose Gruumsh as their god, not i. I was simply forced to go with the flow. Sure i would have been alot more pleased, if the players had chosen The Lord, The elven god or even Vecna as their god, a lot more interesting and cunning gods. But they chose Gruumsh. And i had to make something with Gruumsh.

Simply making a deal with a good god wouldnt have made Gruumsh interesting. Good gods dont lie and betray. I would have needed to think really hard to make something interesting from there.

At the beginning i thought that Gruumsh turned to Vecna. But then i decided, when players cut all their good relations with Vecna followers, that it didnt go so well with Vecna and he needed something that would manipulate him and make him seemingly stronger. So i stumbled upon Fiendish Codex. At the beginning i thought that he made a deal with Demon lord. But as i read through the book, i understood that demons are too impatient and even the most patient of demons wouldnt be as interesting as Devils. So i read FC2. And turned to Memphisto. And finally choosing that Asmodeus would be the most fitting "ally".

My party is Evil or Neutral. So good gods are frowned upon and so far they have done nothing but curse the Lords church, claiming their weak and they will never follow their beliefs.

I just had to make the best of what i got.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 04:27 AM
Ah but here's what you can do, Grumish as a chaotic evil deity is really incapable of anything beyond the simple smash and grab. You may at some point drive this point to the players. If they don't like the fact the god they picked is a short sited chaotic evil blunder. Well its their fault.

You could simply retrool Grumish to be lawful evil, standard Grumish is way to much tribal living and destroy civilization to be a real challenge to the elves or The Lord.

hamishspence
2010-07-05, 04:45 AM
Chaotic evil deities vary a lot- some are quite capable of short term, and even not so short term, planning. Like Lolth.

In 4E Gruumsh was able to conduct a plan to crash his domain into Bane's over quite a long period (The Plane Above) fighting both with and against the other deities against the primordials- more often on the side of the deities- and finally putting his plan into action toward the end of the Dawn War.