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Umael
2010-07-04, 05:52 AM
Okay, I'm getting first to make my first character ever for the 7th Sea RPG. We are going to basically be playing Pirates of the Caribbean (no, seriously - we're not going to have anyone who is from Avalon - they're English), but basically it's 7th Sea.

Me, I'm going to play a runic sorcerer. For those of you familiar with 7th Sea, that means I'm basically a Viking-style magic-user who makes runes. I had this image of a bare-chested man with a nice warm cloak, clean-shaven, looking kinda like an extra from Durmstrang (Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire reference) while talking like a Jägermonster (Girl Genius reference).

The trouble is... runic magic seems to suck.

Maybe I got it wrong.

To start with, everyone in 7th Sea has 5 traits, Brawn, Finesse, Wits, Resolve,[i] and [i]Panche, and all of them are important. Furthermore, they all start at 1 (max starting value is 3, max value is 5 unless you have certain Advantages). It is recommended that you get two traits up to 3 and the other three up to 2. As I need Resolve to successful cast my spells and Wits determines how many spells I can cast per day, they will be 3 each.

Gets two 3's and three 2's will cost 48 Hero Points out of 100. Being a Full-Bloodied Sorcerer will cost another 40. I've got 12 points left, 22 if I take a Hubris. Points are at a premium already, and I want results.

So I can cast 3 Runes per day because I will have 3 Wits. I would expect them to be good.

Most Runes give a bonus of some kind to die rolls, but in order to make it last longer than one round I need to make a raise (increase the target number by 5). Basic rune-casting usually has a target number of 15, so I'm looking to try to roll a 20 on 6d10, keeping the highest 3 (and if any are "10's" I add 10 and re-roll). In notation, I have 6k3, TN 20. The first number, "6", is because my Resolve is 3 and my Knack will be 3, so add them together. The second number (after the k), "3", is because my Resolve is 3.

Okay, so not the greatest. I use one of my three daily powers and I get an increase on some roll of some kind.

I can also use my runic magic to control the weather. It's not great, but I can make the seas go from calm to windy, or make a blizzard into a gentle snowstorm. Useful.

The last rune, "Fury", is the only direct damage spells. If I Invoke it (TN 15, rolling 6k3), I shoot lightning from my hands. My attack and my damage rolls are both the same - 4k1, because it is my Mastery Level + my Knack level (1 + 3), keeping my Mastery Level (1).

Okay, so what kind of TN am I likely to be going for?

Well, the base TN to hit someone is 5. Rolling 4 ten-siders and picking the highest one, there is a good chance at least one of them will be at least a 5.

Unfortunately, it is easy for a TN to go up by leaps of 5. In fact, the Brute, the 7th Sea equal to D&D 4.0's Minion, has a TN of 10.

I.e., I should have no trouble casting lightning bolts out of my hands and smiting minions.

Except that I roll 4k1. The chance of missing is .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 = .81 x .81 ~ .64. I have a 64% chance of missing someone who is basically a speedbump NPC.

If I hit a Brute, the Brute is gone. Minion-like and all that. But someone tougher? I'm going to be doing... 4k1 damage. That means I'm looking at about 7-9 points of damage, on average. Without going into the Wound System, that's not great. Most NPCs will be a little hurt, but they aren't going to go down.

But at least I can do this 3 times per day.

Did I mention that if I miss my Invoke roll, *I* take damage.

Luckily, the GM is willing to work with me, but I need to know - are the mechanics really this messed up? Am I reading this right?

Deadmeat.GW
2010-07-04, 07:14 AM
Hum, you are aware you can in down-times make rune items which are permanent :)?

Which you can give to other people or use yourself, taking 2K1 damage :)?

These pre-made runes do not count towards your limit of runes cast a day.

Ok, at early levels these have a cooldown of 10 rounds but you can make a ton of them if you have the time and the patience.

A couple of 'wands' with lightning runes on them?
You can do what a character of mine did, a crown of thorns, each thorn had a rune on it and I snapped them off when using them.

The options are quite substantial.

The damage is low-ish in the beginning but you can start racking this up really fast once you get to the next level.
6K2 damage can be really nasty, really fast and it is ranged.

However...the big thing is that the lightning is not your main thing for combat, stat increases and such are far more dangerous in combat.

Swordguy
2010-07-04, 03:24 PM
Mechanically, no, you aren't missing anything. Magic of ALL sorts sucks on starting characters. It's a combination of being spread too thin on points and the fact that your Mastery Level determines your number of Kept Dice.

This is a feature, not a bug, and is characteristic of ALL the systems that John Wick has designed (including but not limited to L5R). His play preference is that magic-users are NOT to rely just on their magic, but cultivate other abilities as well. Be more like Gandalf than Rastlin, if that makes sense.

The problem with 7th Sea is that the initial entry cost to get in to Magic is radically out of line with equivalent "starting packages". Swordsmen schools only cost 25 points, for example, and provide greater starting utility (and Magic will only situationally out-perform Swordsman schools in late Mastery Levels).

In-system, you have no options to increase your Mastery Levels. All of your Magic Knacks count as Advanced Knacks for purposes of character creation...which means they cost 3CP instead of 1CP to increase. There's no possible way you're going to be able to buy up enough of them to increase to Adept just starting out. And, unfortunately, inscribing runes requires you to be an Adept, so no rune items to begin the game.

In short, yes, starting character in 7th Sea suck. ALL of them. One of the most common house rules is to increase the number of starting CP to 150.

On the bright side, pretty much all the published starting PCs suck too. Take a look at the pregenerated characters - they generally only have 2-3 Skills each, with the Knacks in each skill at Rank 2 at MOST (maybe 3 for an Attack Knack). Pregens will have maybe one Trait at a 3, most of them at 2, and perhaps only one at 1. NPCs are statted similarly...and the intended hit percentage against an opponent isn't the 50-60% that D&D assumes, but closer to 30% (better to force long, dramatic battles). You shouldn't be expecting more than 1 in 3 attacks to land. Optimization can improve this ratio, but it'll force your GM to mess with other stuff.

Over on the AEG forums, Dana and I were working on a set of character creation "fixes" for a while until the forum kind of died. Here's the results. Yeah, they're house rules, but they're house rules that the line developer approved of:

7th Sea Character Creation Modifications

All characters have the following “point pools” with which they may purchase character abilities:

LIMITATIONS: No PC may start the game with a trait rating above a 4, nor a skill above 3.

Traits: All PCs receive their first dot in each trait for free, plus one trait dot that is dependent upon nationality. PCs then receive 40 points to purchase more dots (at 8 points per dot).
Special Ability: All PCs receive 25 points with which to purchase a special ability(s). This ability includes (but is not limited to) Swordsman’s Schools, Sorcery, Dracheneisen, Man of Will, Empathic Healer, and like abilities. Whether these points may be used for a given special ability is at the GM’s discretion.
Arcana: All PCs have the choice of getting a Virtue for free, or may gain 5 additional points to be added to their Freebie Pool is they take a Hubris. No PC may have a Virtue AND a Hubris.
Skills: All characters receive 25 points with which to purchase skills, knacks, and advanced knacks (including Swordsman Knacks and Sorcery Knacks).
Advantages: All PCs receive 5 points to go towards non-language advantages.
Languages: All PCs receive 5 points with which to purchase languages. Note there is no common tongue in 7th Sea.
Freebie Points: All PCs receive 30 points with which they may use in any way they like, subject to the Limitations listed above. For example, a PC may want to be a full-blooded sorcerer (40 points). The special ability pool is entirely used up in purchasing such (25 points) and the remaining 15 points are a paid from the Freebie Point pool.
Destiny Spread: All PCs may spend 2 Freebie Points and gain a destiny spread from their appropriate Nation Book (Past, Present, and Future cards), without the Arcana option.

Umael
2010-07-04, 03:41 PM
Hum, you are aware you can in down-times make rune items which are permanent :)?

Um... I can??

I'm starting out as an Apprentice, so I only get Invoking. What you are describing sounds like Inscribing. On page 206, it says:


Restrictions on Invoking Runes
You may only attempt to invoke a number of runes per day equal to your Wits. Failed attempts and multiple invocations of the same rune counts towards this total.

When I get to Inscribe, sure.



Which you can give to other people or use yourself, taking 2K1 damage :)?

Not what I was reading either.

I cannot maintain more inscribed runes than I have ranks in Brawn, I found nothing in the rules about taking damage for just using an inscribed rune.

Of course, if the object in question has a rune on it and the rune is activated, it either works instantly or it works for a number of rounds, and then... the rune is discharged? I can't activate it again until I Inscribe it again?



These pre-made runes do not count towards your limit of runes cast a day.

Again, where are you getting that?

I can only Invoke a number of runes equal to my Wits, Inscribe a number of runes equal to my Brawn, and Become one (1) and only one (1) rune.



Ok, at early levels these have a cooldown of 10 rounds but you can make a ton of them if you have the time and the patience.

Okay, are we using different editions or something? Because I saw NOTHING at all about a cooldown of 10 rounds. I'm going off a .pdf of a second printing that was done in 2000. Are there revised rules for 7th Sea or something I missed?



The damage is low-ish in the beginning but you can start racking this up really fast once you get to the next level.
6K2 damage can be really nasty, really fast and it is ranged.

Sure, and with a Brawn of 3, you still have a good chance of doing something.

But I have to make it to Adept first.

And you missed the other major issue I had with it - my Attack roll is so horrible, I can't even reliably target Brutes. Brutes. I have the equivalent accuracy of a Stormtrooper, but I can't even reliably hit the Red Shirts.



However...the big thing is that the lightning is not your main thing for combat, stat increases and such are far more dangerous in combat.

Maybe.

Keep in mind - I'm going to be using 88 points already, between Traits and being a Full-Blooded sorcerer. I am probably going to pick up the Hubris of Pride for an extra ten points, but at 22 leftover points, I'm stretched pretty thin.

If I want to get involved in combat, I have a few choices, mostly long-range and short-range. Short-range means I'll be in the midst of things, mixing it up and getting hurt. Not the image I had in mind - I'm thinking I'm supposed to be a sorcerer, the "I stand back and blast them" kind. I want my character to be reveling in his power, dismissive of the way I can just wave a hand and my enemies drop. Not so likely to do that now, the way the system is set up.

I guess I can go for a runic sorcerer with a pistol...

Umael
2010-07-04, 04:09 PM
Mechanically, no, you aren't missing anything. Magic of ALL sorts sucks on starting characters. It's a combination of being spread too thin on points and the fact that your Mastery Level determines your number of Kept Dice.

Actually, the Mastery Level is what's killing me, not being spread-thin.

That and my power is pretty much weak over weak AND I only can use it 3 times.


This is a feature, not a bug, and is characteristic of ALL the systems that John Wick has designed (including but not limited to L5R). His play preference is that magic-users are NOT to rely just on their magic, but cultivate other abilities as well. Be more like Gandalf than Rastlin, if that makes sense.

...As a game designer, what he did is stupid.

No, don't get me wrong. I don't mind the idea of playing a more Gandalf-like character. But Gandalf had a LOT of knowledge of Middle-Earth, could fight just fine, and was regarded with a lot of respect for his wisdom.

But I'm having to spend 40 points out of my starting 100, and I'm looking at putting 48 more into my Traits. That leaves 22 (with my Hubris) to split between other Advantages and my skills. I.e., the theory is fine, but how Mr. Wick implemented it for 7th Sea was completely ridiculous.

L5R is much better, given that you pretty much start with 8 spells per day OR until you meditate, and those spells are a LOT more effective, even the Rank 1 spells.



In-system, you have no options to increase your Mastery Levels. All of your Magic Knacks count as Advanced Knacks for purposes of character creation...which means they cost 3CP instead of 1CP to increase.

Um... wait, what? Where are you getting this?

I'm looking at the rules, and all I can see is that I start with 7 Sorcery Points, no more, and that all Advanced Knacks are increased just like Regular Knacks with Experience Points. Oh, and I can only max my Knacks at 3 during Hero Creation.



There's no possible way you're going to be able to buy up enough of them to increase to Adept just starting out. And, unfortunately, inscribing runes requires you to be an Adept, so no rune items to begin the game.

Honestly, I would be okay with that - IF I was allowed to Invoke more runes and/or there were more powerful. I'm sorry, but "Fury" is absolutely ridiculous when it is unreliable if I will even be able take out a single Brute with the use of "Fury".



In short, yes, starting character in 7th Sea suck. ALL of them. One of the most common house rules is to increase the number of starting CP to 150.

On the bright side, pretty much all the published starting PCs suck too. Take a look at the pregenerated characters - they generally only have 2-3 Skills each, with the Knacks in each skill at Rank 2 at MOST (maybe 3 for an Attack Knack). Pregens will have maybe one Trait at a 3, most of them at 2, and perhaps only one at 1. NPCs are statted similarly...and the intended hit percentage against an opponent isn't the 50-60% that D&D assumes, but closer to 30% (better to force long, dramatic battles). You shouldn't be expecting more than 1 in 3 attacks to land. Optimization can improve this ratio, but it'll force your GM to mess with other stuff.

Okay, I get this.

But, again, I refer back to how messed up Runic Sorcery is (I haven't examined the other kinds of sorcery yet). TN 15 to even activate my rune (maybe TN 10 if I'm lucky, but I'm going with no Raises), I take damage if I fail my roll, I can only use my Runic magic 3 times per day, and when I do use it, it might be completely ineffective - and even if it IS effective, it isn't likely to be significant.

You know, maybe, just maybe there is a reason why 7th Sea wasn't considered a very popular or successful game - because of game design screw-ups like this.

/rant



Over on the AEG forums, Dana and I were working on a set of character creation "fixes" for a while until the forum kind of died. Here's the results. Yeah, they're house rules, but they're house rules that the line developer approved of:

I'll bring them to the attention of my GM, but they don't solve the issue of runic magic having great flavor and crappy mechanics.

Marillion
2010-07-04, 04:40 PM
If you want to be a blaster sorcerer, Laerdrom is definitely the wrong way to go. Laerdrom is supposed to be MORE subtle than the other sorceries. In fact, there is no way great way to go to be a blaster, especially at the beginning. El Fuego Adentro gets alright, Glamour has some nice stuff, and Zerstorung (if it exists in your world AND if your GM is silly enough to let you have it) is incredibly nasty, but all in all magic is supposed to be a difficult, costly event. Yes, you can do incredible things, but it all comes at a price. Theus is a low-magic setting.

If you want to play a sorcerer who is dismissive of their enemies and can blow them away, play a Montaigne nobleman with Porte.



But Marillion! While the Montaigne nobles are the epitome of arrogance, I don't see how teleportation magic enables me to blast away my enemies!


It's simple. Make one of your bloodied items a CANNON. Since you're Montaigne, you'll have actions to spare. The scenario should go something like this.


GM:Action dice!
Montaigne: On my first action, I will roll my Bring knack and open a Porte hole. On my second, I will pull my bloodied item through.
GM: 5 brute squads and the villain round the corner and demand you lay down your arms. What do you do?
Montaigne: On my third action, I light the fuse and roll my Artillery.
GM:...What?
Montaigne: The cannon fires, and everyone in the path of the cannonball takes 10k9 flesh wounds and a dramatic for every 5 they miss their wound check by.
GM:...What!?
Montaigne: I believe the chunky salsa rule is in effect?


I love being Montaigne.