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Vin Robinson
2010-07-04, 12:30 PM
A friend of mine is starting up a campaign where there's some sort of evil empire who really, really hates anyone that uses magic. All of the traditional casting classes have been systematically wiped out over the past 100 years.

A few house rules he has put into effect:
Humans are banned. (They're all evil and part of the empire)
Drow are banned. (Also part of the Empire.)
You can't play anything that casts spells. (Unless it's racial spells, or Paladin/Ranger ones.)
You get a FREE +2 level adjustment,
And FIVE flaws.
Once a class skill always a class skill.

I also asked him to approve three things, which he did.
He approved Mystic Ranger.
He approved Sword of the Arcane Order.
And he approved a Swift Hunter - esque feat which instead stacks Rogue and Ranger levels for SA and FE.

So.. I was wondering if someone could help me abuse this..
The stats he rolled out for me are:
24, 19, 16, 14, 14, 10.

For my free +2 LA, I was thinking Gloura, but any other suggestions?

As far as build, we're starting at level 7, so I was going to go Rogue 1/mystic ranger 6.

But yeah, help me build this guy please?

Caphi
2010-07-04, 12:53 PM
What do you want to accomplish by "breaking" or "abusing" it?

Moff Chumley
2010-07-04, 12:57 PM
What do you want to accomplish by "breaking" or "abusing" it?

Having fun? Messing with the DM? Treating it as an intellectual exercise? Proving a point? There's plenty of pretty good reasons...

Beelzebub1111
2010-07-04, 12:59 PM
Half-Ogre War hulk/Hulking Hurler. you're welcome.

SanjiWatsuki
2010-07-04, 01:18 PM
Saint (+2) Feral (+1) Mineral Warrior (+1) Incarnate Construct (-2) Warforged, I think would count as an LA+2 if you wanted to break things.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-04, 01:20 PM
A friend of mine is starting up a campaign where there's some sort of evil empire who really, really hates anyone that uses magic. All of the traditional casting classes have been systematically wiped out over the past 100 years.

A few house rules he has put into effect:
Humans are banned. (They're all evil and part of the empire)
Drow are banned. (Also part of the Empire.)
You can't play anything that casts spells. (Unless it's racial spells, or Paladin/Ranger ones.)
You get a FREE +2 level adjustment,
And FIVE flaws.
Once a class skill always a class skill.

I also asked him to approve three things, which he did.
He approved Mystic Ranger.
He approved Sword of the Arcane Order.
And he approved a Swift Hunter - esque feat which instead stacks Rogue and Ranger levels for SA and FE.

So.. I was wondering if someone could help me abuse this..
The stats he rolled out for me are:
24, 19, 16, 14, 14, 10.

For my free +2 LA, I was thinking Gloura, but any other suggestions?

As far as build, we're starting at level 7, so I was going to go Rogue 1/mystic ranger 6.

But yeah, help me build this guy please?
Well, if you really want to break it...

Lost Empires of Faerun has the Phaerimm - a hatchling is +2 LA, 1 rhd (which is traded out for class levels), and has racial spellcasting... which scales based on character level. Tiny, Detect Magic at-will, Fly-30, immunity to polymorph and petrification, SR 11 (meh), -6 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +2 Natural Armor. Put front-loaded Charisma-based classes on the other side (Monk [if you take Ascetic Mage], Hexblade/Paladin (or variant), Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), and so on.

Edit:
Ah 7th, +2 LA for free.

So a Phaerimm (LA+2... 0, under house-rules) Monk-2/Hexblade-3/Paladin of Tyrrany-2, going into Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) next level. Stat Priority: Cha, Con, Dex, Int, Wis, Str. Make sure to take Ascetic Mage, and you have: Charisma to AC, Charisma to saves (twice vs. spells), Evasion, Mettle, casting as a 7th level Sorcerer, and you'll be getting Charisma to AC again in two levels.

Broken enough?

Edit 2: Oh yes, and you don't even need the flaws. Dodge at 1st, Mobility at 3rd, Ascetic Mage at 6th. You're... quite set.

Ah, there we go: You want Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) to get the Pride domain power (reroll 1's on saves). So yes, one flaw.

Edit 3:
Oh, hey - if you put the 19 into Str, you can qualify for Power Attack & Cleave, letting you buy those feats with Flaws, and get into Blackguard for Charisma to Saves yet again (Dark Blessing) when you're 11th...

Zaq
2010-07-04, 01:32 PM
Define "magic." Is psionics allowed? Because any full manifester with a 24 pre-racial casting stat and +2 LA for free doesn't need anything more to be totally broken.

DISCLAIMER: I am well aware that psionics are not broken compared to actual magic-using classes. They're still broken compared to mundane classes in the same way that Vancian magic is. Full casters are better than everyone else, and manifesters count.

DementedFellow
2010-07-04, 01:38 PM
What about Truenamer? Can you be one?

Jack_Simth
2010-07-04, 01:38 PM
What about Truenamer? Can you be one?
Generally speaking, when someone asks for a broken character, that's not the direction they're trying to break things in....

Vin Robinson
2010-07-04, 01:40 PM
I should have mentioned -- Psionics are indeed banned, as is Magic of Incarnum.

I also don't think I could really pull off being a Phaerimm. Playing a flying tubesock with teeth and four arms would probably get a book thrown at me, be an awful hazard to roleplay, and really just doesn't appeal to me.

The race I was considering was Gloura from the Underdark book.
Medium Sized Fey
+10Dex, +4Con, +2Wis, +6Cha.
DR10/Cold Iron
60ft Flight Speed
Charisma bonus to saved, and as a deflection bonus to AC. (!!!)
They also cast as level 7 bards.
+2LA

I think that's my best best, and I want to sneak as much casting into the build as I can.

Vin Robinson
2010-07-04, 01:41 PM
What about Truenamer? Can you be one?

If I heavily optimize this character to the point where it breaks the campaign and everyone's fun, as punishment I'll be rolling up a Truenamer after this character dies.

archon_huskie
2010-07-04, 01:43 PM
Dwarf fighter level 7.

Prove a different point.

DementedFellow
2010-07-04, 01:43 PM
If I heavily optimize this character to the point where it breaks the campaign and everyone's fun, as punishment I'll be rolling up a Truenamer after this character dies.

That's why I asked. There is a lot of potential you can do with those flaws and LA.

Saph
2010-07-04, 01:43 PM
The race I was considering was Gloura from the Underdark book.
Medium Sized Fey
+10Dex, +4Con, +2Wis, +6Cha.
DR10/Cold Iron
60ft Flight Speed
Charisma bonus to saved, and as a deflection bonus to AC. (!!!)
They also cast as level 7 bards.
+2LA

Gloura have 7 racial hit dice. A level 1 Gloura is the equivalent of a level 10 character. Level 8, if you disregard the LA.

SurlySeraph
2010-07-04, 01:44 PM
That Phaerimm is great, but given that you're up against an evil empire the DM may forbid such an obviously evil character.

From the original post it sounds like you're leaning towards a Ranger build. Strongheart Halfling Mystic Warrior with the Dark and Mineral Warrior templates will have good stealth, great fightiness, and good spellcasting.
Depending on its wording, you may be able to take the rogue-ranger dual progression feat without actually taking any Rogue levels, giving you 3d6 Sneak Attack plus another caster level.

The flaws are nice. I'd start with Weapon Finesse, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), and Shadow Blade. Pick up Gloom Razor when you can, too. TWF could likely be worthwhile with your sneak attack, especially if you use Spell Compendium spells like Hunter's Eye and Blades of Fire for more bonus damage. Something to increase your caster level, like Primitive Caster (from Frostburn) will also be helpful, especially with Hunter's Eye.

As for equipment, I'd get one or two weapons with the Deadly Precision (+2 enhancement, +2d6 sneak attack) and/or Assassination (+1, +1d6 SA) enhancements, plus a few Pearls of Power.

EDIT: For stats:
Dex 24, Con 19, Str 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10. Use for first stat increase for Con, and your second for either Int or Wis so you can cast higher-level spells when you get there.

Zaq
2010-07-04, 01:46 PM
That's why I asked. There is a lot of potential you can do with those flaws and LA.

Oh, I just have to hear this.

Sure, you can make a good character with 5 flaws and 2 LA, but I'll be interested in seeing just how that actually improves your Truenaming...

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-04, 01:49 PM
I should have mentioned -- Psionics are indeed banned, as is Magic of Incarnum.

I also don't think I could really pull off being a Phaerimm. Playing a flying tubesock with teeth and four arms would probably get a book thrown at me, be an awful hazard to roleplay, and really just doesn't appeal to me.

The race I was considering was Gloura from the Underdark book.
Medium Sized Fey
+10Dex, +4Con, +2Wis, +6Cha.
DR10/Cold Iron
60ft Flight Speed
Charisma bonus to saved, and as a deflection bonus to AC. (!!!)
They also cast as level 7 bards.
+2LA

I think that's my best best, and I want to sneak as much casting into the build as I can.Do we really want to break things? Because it might be more fun to play a REALLY useful and powerful character, rather than a broken one.

Such as, go gloura phaerimm or a heavily templated warforged, and play a factotum 4/crusader 1/warblade 1/factotum 1, then alternate 2 levels of factotum with 1 each of crusader and warblade, all the way up. You'll get bardic casting, lots of Int to everything, and plenty of nice maneuvers too. I'd suggest using bard instead of factotum if you want to add +10 or more to attack and damage to the party via inspire courage optimization, but the way you're talking, bards aren't allowed.

A phaerimm bardsaderblade would be awesome in a group of melee types, though. Mmm...

2xMachina
2010-07-04, 01:57 PM
Factotum, Int focused.

Take Font of Inspiration x7

At lvl 8, Surge away!!! (I think you can surge 10 times a fight)

Vin Robinson
2010-07-04, 01:57 PM
Gloura have 7 racial hit dice. A level 1 Gloura is the equivalent of a level 10 character. Level 8, if you disregard the LA.

-Wow.- I don't know how I missed that one.

Jack_Simth
2010-07-04, 02:02 PM
I also don't think I could really pull off being a Phaerimm. Playing a flying tubesock with teeth and four arms would probably get a book thrown at me
Anything that would break the game would get a book thrown at you. That's what you asked for.

, be an awful hazard to roleplay,
That's simple enough to deal with - Disguise Self. You're immune to Polymorph, but not illusion. Tiny gives you a +8 to Hide; you can cast Invisibility and fly around, or disguise yourself as, say, a Hawk, and ride on one of the PC's shoulders. Also, you cast your spells as though they were spell-like abilities, so no verbal components to give you away.

If you really want to go nuts with it, use a completely different build, at put the Book of Exalted Deeds into play. A Vow of Poverty tube-sock. Drop Hexblade and Paladin of Tyrrany, and go Paladin-2/Fighter-2/Monk-2/Pious Templar-1 (again, going into Arcane Duelist next level).

Relevant Feats:
Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, True Believer, Weapon Focus (Deities Favored Weapon), Ascetic Mage, Dodge, Mobility. Extend Spell would also be useful.

You lose one instance of Charisma to saves, and you'll need a flaw or two, but you don't need to worry about equipment, and you get some nice bonuses. Oh yes, and you'll be able to keep Disguise Self up pretty much all day (work out how many 1st and 2nd level spell slots you'll get).

and really just doesn't appeal to me.

The race I was considering was Gloura from the Underdark book.
Medium Sized Fey
+10Dex, +4Con, +2Wis, +6Cha.
DR10/Cold Iron
60ft Flight Speed
Charisma bonus to saved, and as a deflection bonus to AC. (!!!)
They also cast as level 7 bards.
+2LA

I think that's my best best, and I want to sneak as much casting into the build as I can.Don't forget the 7 racial hit dice.

DementedFellow
2010-07-04, 02:12 PM
Oh, I just have to hear this.

Sure, you can make a good character with 5 flaws and 2 LA, but I'll be interested in seeing just how that actually improves your Truenaming...

I wouldn't gear it to Truenaming because admittedly there is little that addresses Truenaming, however, playing a Truenamer in a world where casters and psions aren't allowed would be powerful.

Instead I would find the best LA race that would have an INT boost, and choose flaws to get other SLA makers, like Spell Hand or Insightful or Communicator.

Are they weak abilities? Sure. But suddenly the worst class would be useful inside and outside of battle. I define game breaking as hogging all the glory.

Besides, I like the idea of a class that uses tons of SLAs and isn't a warlock.

Rothen
2010-07-04, 02:18 PM
Are they weak abilities? Sure. But suddenly the worst class would be useful inside and outside of battle. I define game breaking as hogging all the glory.


I'm not convinced that a Truenamer could hog the glory from a tier 3 PC with the same options.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-04, 02:21 PM
I'm not convinced that a Truenamer could hog the glory from a tier 3 PC with the same options.Well, he IS "demented."

Maybe there's a reason he named himself that? :smallwink:

dextercorvia
2010-07-04, 03:04 PM
How about a Warforged Saint SLT Barb1/Fighter4/WarforgedJuggernaut2/X

Feats:

Flaw:Toughness,
Flaw:Trollblooded
Flaw3-5:Rapid Regenx3
1:Extra Rage
F1:Power Attack
F2: Improved Bullrush
3:?
F4:?
6: Shock Trooper

Regeneration 4, Fast Healing HD/2
Immunities Include Nonlethal Damage, Acid
Fire Resistance 10

If you ever do take damage (only fire can do it) you take 10 off the top and Fast Healing kicks in.

Frog Dragon
2010-07-04, 03:10 PM
How about a Warforged Saint SLT Barb1/Fighter4/WarforgedJuggernaut2/X

Feats:

Flaw:Toughness Improved Toughness
Flaw:Trollblooded
Flaw3-5:Rapid Regenx3
1:Extra Rage
F1:Power Attack
F2: Improved Bullrush
3:?
F4:?
6: Shock Trooper

Regeneration 4, Fast Healing HD/2
Immunities Include Nonlethal Damage, Acid
Fire Resistance 10

If you ever do take damage (only fire can do it) you take 10 off the top and Fast Healing kicks in.
That's better.

dextercorvia
2010-07-04, 03:17 PM
Toughness is a prereq for Trollblooded. AFAIK, you can't sub that out.

DanReiv
2010-07-04, 03:30 PM
Feral (+1, inherited, SS) Dark (+1, acquired, TOM) Whisper Gnome (+0, ROS, also here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3)) going melee rogue.

So many flaws, exactly what the build lack :smallwink: You'll be a pain.

Starting stats : 24, 19, 16, 14, 14, 10.

STR : 10->14
DEX : 24->22
CON : 16->18
WIS : 14->16
INT : 19->16 (-4 feral +1 @4th level)
CHA : 14

Nice stats block to begin with but also :

+20 feet movement speed (50 total, since WG has 30 base despite being small)
2 Claws attack, always nice. SA people while unarmed.
Improved grab (well...)
Pounce (oh yeah)
Superior Low light and Darkvision.
Fast Healing 3, gets better with HD.
INDECENT HIDING ABLITIES in a no magic world no less !! : +16 hide, +10 MS (+22 Hide, +16 MS if DEX 22) before putting a single skill point and backed by...
Hide In Plain Sight
+6 Natural Armor.

All in all, not too shaby before adding classes and feat (omg 5 flaws)

Frog Dragon
2010-07-04, 03:51 PM
Toughness is a prereq for Trollblooded. AFAIK, you can't sub that out.
The beauty of Improved Toughness is that it counts as toughness for prerequisites in addition to actually being useful.
Edit: Oh wait. I found it doesn't actually say that in either one of the three sources for it. However, this interpretation is really really common, apparently. Seen it a lot. Does it actually do that through some sidebar I miss?

mabriss lethe
2010-07-04, 04:48 PM
Well, there are Karsites, but they're effectively human. Human+ really.... (so it's up to your DM to allow or disallow them due to their apparent humanity.

+2 LA
Human traits
SR 10+ class level
Dr 5/magic
+2 Cha +2 Con

Magic draining attack: force a will save on a successful melee attack to shut down a magic weapon, shield or armor for 1 rd.

spell healing: When a spell fails due to SR, karsites heal 2 HP per spell level.

Cannot ever cast arcane or divine spells, even if they take levels in classes that grant those abilities.


*If your DM allows you to play this race/allows ToM classes. A Karsite Binder is the way to go.

herrhauptmann
2010-07-04, 05:00 PM
The beauty of Improved Toughness is that it counts as toughness for prerequisites in addition to actually being useful.
Edit: Oh wait. I found it doesn't actually say that in either one of the three sources for it. However, this interpretation is really really common, apparently. Seen it a lot. Does it actually do that through some sidebar I miss?

Might be listed in the rules compendium. But no, otherwise I can't think of a place where it was listed as qualifying in the same way dodge is replaced with desert wind dodge.

What book is the gloura in?

Zovc
2010-07-04, 05:13 PM
Either find a race that gives you spellcasting as a full-casting class, or be a Saint Paladin 2/whatever.

Edit: Hexblade 2 gets you Charisma to your saves again, with a different source name than Divine Grace. Hexblade also gets similar casting progression to a Paladin, so it should be allowed. Only problem is that Hexblade requires "any nongood" as its alignment, so your DM will either have to Waive that or let you be a Paladin of Tyrany/Slaughter. How you'll be a Saintly Lawful/Chaotic Evil character is beyond me.

Math_Mage
2010-07-04, 06:40 PM
Either find a race that gives you spellcasting as a full-casting class, or be a Saint Paladin 2/whatever.

Full casters have died out. It's part of the campaign setting, as mentioned in the OP.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-04, 06:43 PM
Full casters have died out. It's part of the campaign setting, as mentioned in the OP.And yet racial spellcasting is explicitly okay.

Math_Mage
2010-07-04, 06:49 PM
And yet racial spellcasting is explicitly okay.

...whoops. :smallyuk:

Ingus
2010-07-04, 07:07 PM
Githzerai, Shadow-Walker (Unapprochable East) a total +2 LA.
Use some flaw to take Blind-Fight, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack. (strongly suggested TWF chain)
Go rogue 3, ranger 2, swordsage 2 (swordsage maybe first, then improve it with martial study and martial stance)
Max hide and move silently

Yes, nothing outstanding, since now. But next level you're a Telflammar Shadowlord. Since it has a very limited spellcasting ('till 3) ask your DM. You can even drop it, because it is not at all necessary. Follow the path since 4th level and Shadow Pounce, or 5th and Shadow discorporation, then jump elsewhere.
And have fun

DanReiv
2010-07-04, 07:24 PM
Even then why are you guys keeping on trying to sell him hexblade (which doesn't give CHA to Saves btw, only against spells) or other CHA to Saves in a setting where casters are instinct ? :smallconfused:

It's only good if you get to use it.

I stand by my previous "build" :smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2010-07-04, 07:27 PM
The beauty of Improved Toughness is that it counts as toughness for prerequisites in addition to actually being useful.
Edit: Oh wait. I found it doesn't actually say that in either one of the three sources for it. However, this interpretation is really really common, apparently. Seen it a lot. Does it actually do that through some sidebar I miss?
It's not a common interpretation, it's a common houserule because Toughness sucks so much.

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-04, 07:39 PM
Instead of giving us the premise of "Break this Character" perhaps you could give us a bit more. For instance, what role do you wish to fulfil within the party? Ranged, Melee, Tank, Control, Party Face, etc.

A bit more detail on his spellcaster rule would be good to.
Bard offers amazing return for little investment. A bluff Bard can instill supernatural suggestions into people with his Epic bluff. A Snowflake wardancer/DFI can dish out amazing TWF damage.

Is his Ban/Genocide only on Full Casters? (Cleric, Wiz, Sorc) or Did it extend to partial casters (Bard). I am aware that Paladin/Ranger-esk casting is still ok. What about the middle ground between the two?

tl;dr: What role do you wish to fulfill. What are you looking to play and RP.

(Alternatively, as mentioned before. Half-Orge: War Hulk/Hulking Hurler is more than enough in a non-magic game. Throwing moons at the "Empire o' Evil" should be more than sufficient. Also, keep in mind. If you do make a caster-esk character, youll be fighting Drow and their SR. (Not that thats really a problem, however, a pain non the less.)

-----
Saint as mentioned before is a strong templare (+2) for a LAWFUL GOOD CHARACTER who invests in Exalted Feats. (You are REQUIRED to be Exalted for it, and your character will have had to attain it at lv6. You can't apply it before 6.)

Dark as mentioned before is a STRONG template for any stealth hero. Simply put +10 hide and HiPS is amazing for a +1. (Not to mention the stat adjustments).

He is giving you 2 free LA, could you buy off additional templates? If you were so inclined to be LV: +3, +4, etc. Also, on the Template note, I beleive you cannot add Incarnate to Warforged... I think I read it somewhere on these boards, although I may be mistaken.

Aharon
2010-07-05, 03:39 AM
Improved Toughness, RAW, doesn't count as Toughness. Azure Toughness (from MoI) does, but it's only marginally better than real Toughness.

And the obligatory "Truenamers don't suck that bad, with sufficient optimization" comment. Hell, you can even do it without tricks.
(Point in Case: Results from Tleilaxu_Ghola's analysis for CR+3 with a Marshal 1/Truenamer 19 build)
T_G's results:

Worst Case Senario: Opponent = your level + 3 CR
1.DC = [15 + (1+3)x2] = 23 -> N/A
2.DC = [15 + (2+3)x2] = 25 -> 55%
3.DC = [15 + (3+3)x2] = 27 -> 60%
4.DC = [15 + (4+3)x2] = 29 -> 55%
5.DC = [15 + (5+3)x2] = 31 -> 75%
6.DC = [15 + (6+3)x2] = 33 -> 75%
7.DC = [15 + (7+3)x2] = 35 -> 70%
8.DC = [15 + (8+3)x2] = 37 -> 95%
9.DC = [15 + (9+3)x2] = 39 -> 90%
10.DC = [15 + (10+3)x2] = 41 ->95%
11.DC = [15 + (11+3)x2] = 43 ->90%
12.DC = [15 + (12+3)x2] = 45 ->85%
13.DC = [15 + (13+3)x2] = 47 ->80%
14.DC = [15 + (14+3)x2] = 49 ->75%
15.DC = [15 + (15+3)x2] = 51 ->80%
16.DC = [15 + (16+3)x2] = 53 ->80%
17.DC = [15 + (17+3)x2] = 55 ->80%
18.DC = [15 + (18+3)x2] = 57 ->85%
19.DC = [15 + (19+3)x2] = 59 ->80%
20.DC = [15 + (20+3)x2] = 61 ->80%
More info here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8489.0).

Fritzelle
2010-07-05, 04:17 AM
See if your DM will let you take Battle Jump (it's from 3.0, Unapproachable East, and is regional but seems as logical as anything). Double damage on charges from above. No magic, right?

Focus on unarmed combat, take Flying Kick, Leap Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), Improved Sunder...break armor, swords and maces from above. WITH YOUR FIST.

Broken-ish, maybe? The jump check will be the trickiest part, but it's entirely possible. 11 ranks, 7 strength gets you to +18, just 2 more to go with a running start to get 10 feet into the air, minimum to hit a medium target. As for getting higher to hit something taller, you can figure it.

(Expeditious Dodge counts as Dodge for all intents and purposes; Dodge and Toughness seem just about as bad. Then again, I dunno how I feel about Expeditious Dodge...this is why I made that mistake anyway. When I found out it was a mistake, I houseruled it, and the next DM picked my houserule up.)

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-05, 05:45 AM
First of all, Gloura is right here (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) for anyone wondering about the details.

Play a Hellbred, from Fiendish Codex II. It's basically an evil character who decided to change his wicked ways too late, and was condemned without opportunity for redemption. The rulers of the upper planes reincarnate the character as a Hellbred and plop him back into the world for one last chance to prove he wants to do good. Your character was a powerful spellcaster long ago, from before the purging of magic and possibly even predating the current empire. It has taken hundreds of years for his petition to get past the bureaucrats and red tape, and now he has finally been swept out of the depths of hell and returned to the material plane. His new body is nothing like his old one, and he only commands a fraction of his former power. He is capable of unspeakable cruelty and evil, he's done it all before, but he knows that he must do good in order to prove himself worthy of a desirable afterlife. Any levels he gains and new spells he learns can be explained as remembering things he was capable of before, and growing more accustomed to his new form. You also have the perfect excuse for the character to be conveniently ruthless at times, as he may fall back on old habits.

For this particular character, I'd go with the Spirit aspect for Hellbred, which gives a +2 Cha and -2 Con along with darkvision and eventually telepathy. For your free +2 LA, consider Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) or possibly Half-Fey (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) from the Fiend Folio. I'd go Str 14, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 24 before any racial adjustments, and put your 4th level point into Con and all the rest on Cha. As a Phrenic Hellbred (Spirit) you'll have Str 14, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 30, or as a Half-Fey Hellbred (Spirit) you'll have Str 14, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 30. Phrenic gets power/spell resistance and useful psi-like abilities, and can take psionic feats. Half-Fey gets wings and spell-like abilities that can help fill gaps in your spells known, plus it has a lot of the same feel as your original idea of playing a Gloura. In any case you'll be best off prestige classing out of Sorcerer at the earliest opportunity. Always be sure to follow the first rule: Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels. At level 20 you should have 20th level Sorcerer spellcasting, no matter what. Be sure to pick a good array of spells known, be sure you have a few spells at various levels to attack each of the three different saving throws, plus some efficient damage dealing, and don't forget about utility spells.

Edit: Be sure to take Eschew Materials, as it will likely be impossible to get a spell component pouch in this setting.

Dr_Emperor
2010-07-05, 11:04 AM
Oh, I just have to hear this.

Sure, you can make a good character with 5 flaws and 2 LA, but I'll be interested in seeing just how that actually improves your Truenaming...

Because I'm insane and think this is doable with five flaws,
shaky, vulnerable, weak will, murky eyed, inattentive
phrenic/any intelligence charisma template, Illumian, Naen sigil and Aesh
Int 20 Cha 24 Dex 16 Con 14 Str 14 Wis 10
Marshal 1/truenamer 6

two feats for worshipping an elder evil
Feats: chosen of evil, Evil Brand, Master's will, willing deformity(tall), Dark Speech, Dark Whispers, Deformity Madness.
Knowledge devotion, Skill focus truenaming, combat reflexes

Total skill check, 27
can add 7 with chosen of evil for a con damage
can also take masters will to add 8 by taking a risk of level damage

Most of its from the high ability scores though, it should gish somewhat.

CubeB
2010-07-05, 12:28 PM
A question, just to sate my curiosity.

Do Martial Adepts count as casters for this purpose?

The Cat Goddess
2010-07-05, 12:35 PM
Another important question...

Is the Free +2 LA the maximum... or could you take a +4 LA Race/Template for the cost of +2?

Are third party books available? The Book of Templates has Heightened & Quickened.

I second the idea of Saint... In a no-magic game, a VoP Unarmed SwordSage Saint would be pretty insane. Enjoy WisX2 to AC.

BTW... concerning one of the suggested builds... I really don't think a Warforged should be able to get the Troll-Blooded Feat, since Warforged don't have blood...

okpokalypse
2010-07-05, 12:52 PM
Is ToB Allowed?

Then do a tubesock Crusader ;)

Vin Robinson
2010-07-05, 03:38 PM
Tomb of Battle is allowed, but all of the base classes are banned.

Bards are specifically banned.

Saint and VoP are also specifically banned.

Anything to do with Psionics is also banned.


The Half-Fey template is looking absolutely great, though. I think I'm about to settle on that. I just need a base race now.

The Hellbred fluff that was provided is -fantastic-, I just need to run it by him.

Escheton
2010-07-05, 04:14 PM
Seeing you wanted to be a rangertype might I suggest you check out Lords of Madness?

Specifically the darkstalker feat and the shadow creature template.
The feat allows you to hide from creatures with blindsense and such. By forcing them to roll a spotcheck anyways. Something you should be pretty good at as a rangertype is hiding and sneaking.

The template gives you shadow blend. Which is total concealment, prettymuch all the time.
Your speed is as base x 1-1/2
You get lowlight vision, you get darkvision 60.
coldresist 5+1/hd, max 15

for every 4hd or lvls as they are otherwise called for pc's you get an extra ability such as: +2 luck bonus to all saves, cause fear 1/day cl 5, dr 5/magic, plane shift 1/day, evasion, fast healing 2. And thats about it abilitychoice wise.

also you get a +6 racialbonus to move silently.

all this for a LA +2


Now, classes. Naturally you take factotum first and put at least 1 skillpoint in every skill that is trained only. There, you can now master each and every skill you want due too your dm making it classskills from now on.

Then just take the swift classes you wanted. Perhaps pick up Combat Expertise, Improved trip and exotic weapon prof Talenta Sarrash to trip people with a 1d10 19-20/x4 reach weapon.
That leaves at least 1 feat profided you are not also human, strongheart halfling, fighter or whatever other classes give bonus feats.
If you feel like being the trapmaster as well you could always pick up the trap engineer feat from dungeonscape for a +2 bonus on search en disable and +4 to reflex saves and dodge against traps in a dungeon where you disabled or sprung a trap before.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-05, 04:28 PM
Strongheart Hafling for yet another feat? :D

Douglas
2010-07-05, 04:47 PM
Talenta Sarrash to trip people with a 1d10 19-20/x4 reach weapon.
That was nerfed to something within the normal range of crit stats by errata, as I recall.

Zovc
2010-07-05, 05:20 PM
The Half-Fey template is looking absolutely great, though. I think I'm about to settle on that. I just need a base race now.

Half-Fey does seem good. Most people would complain about the -2 Con, but the damage reduction should more than compensate for that.

Here are some other LA+2 templates. (I'll list every one I come across in Crystal Keep's .pdf.)

Half-Fey
Half-Nymph (Dragon Magazine)
Half-Dopelganger (Dragon Magazine)
Half-Vampire
Entropic Creature
Celestial Creature
Fiendish Creature
Arcane-Blooded (Dragon Magazine)
Stoneboned (Dragon Magazine)
Gravetouched Ghoul
Dustform (No intelligence score.)
Saint
Sanctified

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-07-05, 06:43 PM
I assume you aren't going to be a pally/mystic ranger for the spells...

Without casting its significantly harder to break 3.5. Even with a few goodies thrown in, you have find actually broken things if you want to break the game.

Go shadow pouncer or hulker hurler. They're borked