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Eleven
2010-07-04, 04:33 PM
Is this PrC balanced if your players aren't trying to over-optimize? I know about the 10:1 time trick that would obviously ruin a game, but if the player chooses a different plane to be the Shepherd of, should I be worried?

Milskidasith
2010-07-04, 04:39 PM
It's still strictly better than Druid, which is, even when played "as intended" (I.E. blaster wizard, sneaky rogue, healer cleric, beatstick melee class), very powerful due to the fact it gets a decent beatstick (I don't buy into the "better than a fighter" stuff, since fighters do get gear and feats to make up for not having great strength and size and auto grappling on hits) and hits pretty hard itself/uses decent BC abilities (which seems to have been the intent of Druid spells; that and buffs).

So yeah, even in a low op game, getting strictly better abilities is pretty powerful.

Prodan
2010-07-04, 04:39 PM
It's like a druid, but more powerful no matter what you do. Of course you should be worried.

Morph Bark
2010-07-04, 05:05 PM
I think that last I checked, the Planar Shepherd made a Druid's Animal Companion better, made their wildshape better and it made their spellcasting better.

Take into account that the Druid is already considered one of the most powerful classes out there (Tier 1 if you're familiar with that).

The end result? Kick it out. Fast.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 05:14 PM
Planar shepered was clearly designed by someone who likes druids. A LOT. Even by RAI it's intended to be stronger that the druid. Unless he picks the plane of dull emptiness that has no creatures for him to wildshape and no special properties, a planar sheperd is always better than a druid, wich is already a pretty damn strong class by itself.

It's one of these things that really deservers auto-ban in any campaign unless you're chain bidding efreets.

Eldariel
2010-07-04, 05:35 PM
It's really Druid that gets Super 9th Level slot as a Su-ability on level 5 (3 times on level 10), Shapechange+++ on level 9, hours/level ~Polymorph on level 3 (for the record, that's one level later than Wizard first gains the spell) and some minor stuff like limited Plane Shifts (something Druid can't normally cast) and yeah.

Basically, it takes Druid's spellcasting and raises it to nth level, allows you to screw around with some planes that are normally completely fatal, and yeah, the "spells". Normally Druid's weakness on very high levels and higher levels of optimization is the spell list that's notably weaker than Wizard's or optimized Cleric's. Their only really good level 9 spell is Shapechange (though e.g. Summon Elemental Monolith is no slouch either, and Shapechange is arguably the strongest of the bunch) and they miss out on some of the key utility.


Now, Planar Shepherd does the following:
- Gives you Super Time Stop 1/day on ECL 10 (3/day on ECL 15; earlier than Wizard can cast even one). Super Time Stop affects your allies too, lasts much longer consistently, intensifies your magic and is Su so it can't even be countered.
- Gives you Super Shapechange. "But this doesn't address Druid's failings to get the one 9th level they'd already have anyways?" you ask. And yeah, that would technically be true. Except this is Super Shapechange. It lasts hours/level, but the major thing is that it grants your spell-likes! That means you get basically all the spell-likes the Outsiders on your plane of choice have. And umm, Outsiders are pretty much the Spell-Like happiest creature type in the game. Oh, and this ECL 14.
- Super Polymorph: Oh yeah, sure, it's not quite as versatile as normal Polymorph but you get it for hours per level (all day) and can cast regardless of your form. Magical Beasts tend to have most of the really good forms anyways. And you can couple it with Enhance Wildshape-spell to get all the Ex-abilities you couldn't even access with Polymorph. Level 8.


In other words, it takes 3 of the most powerful spells in D&D (leaving out only Gate and Bindings + Simulacrum & Disjunction), empowers them and gives them to you earlier than the classes that use them to broken ends get them (with the exception of Polymorph) and then kinda progresses all your normal Druid class features that make the class so incredible in the first place, and oh, just so happens to have some random secondaries to boot. The silly part is that if you removed all the class's own class features, it would still be just fine 'cause while it'd be inferior to Druid, it still advances all the Druid class features so it'd be only slightly inferior in the end.

Sliver
2010-07-04, 05:39 PM
There are plenty of PrCs that are strictly better than their base class. Any sorcerer who goes into one that doesn't cost him spell levels would improve. You shouldn't ban any class like that, a sorcerer or cleric deserves class features.

Planar Shepherd should be banned due to being too powerful compared to a druid, not simply for being more powerful.

Eldariel
2010-07-04, 05:52 PM
There are plenty of PrCs that are strictly better than their base class. Any sorcerer who goes into one that doesn't cost him spell levels would improve. You shouldn't ban any class like that, a sorcerer or cleric deserves class features.

Thing is, Druid has class features. So being more powerful than Druid is way bigger an issue than being more powerful than Sorc or Cleric.

awa
2010-07-04, 05:55 PM
why do they deserve extra class features? they cast spells that's already the best class feature in the game. I feel prestige class that make you better in all ways then the base class are a poor design.

Boci
2010-07-04, 06:00 PM
why do they deserve extra class features? they cast spells that's already the best class feature in the game. I feel prestige class that make you better in all ways then the base class are a poor design.

Its one of the wonderful things about 3.5 - you can have different power levels. You can have a game where only PrC of +0 are allowed (assuming everyone is playing a class from the same tier) or have only +1 PrC, representing them as a way to improve the generic training the base classes represent.