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Zovc
2010-07-04, 05:20 PM
The typical Sorcadin uses Paladin 2/Sorcerer X as a starting point. This is, as far as I can tell done almost exclusively to use the Sorcerer's beastly Charisma modifier to boost their saves. The BAB and weapon proficiencies are just icing on the cake, really, especially without good prestige classes like Abjurant Champion available.

So, I just glanced over at the Hexblade for reference, and it made me wonder why people always seem to choose Paladin over it. Is Hexblade that much worse of a class, how? The only difference I see that seems all that significant (aside from the "Any Nongood" alignment clause) is that Hexblades can't use shields, medium armor, or heavy armor. Is this really that big of a deal?

(Protip: Hexblades get "Cha to saves", too!)

Saph
2010-07-04, 05:30 PM
(Protip: Hexblades get "Cha to saves", too!)

Problem: they don't. They only get Cha to saves against spells and spell-like effects, which is much weaker. Bad Fort save, too.

Zovc
2010-07-04, 05:33 PM
Oh, I see. That is a pretty big difference.

gallagher
2010-07-04, 05:33 PM
i dont really care that the hexblade is weaker in all points necessary. i like RPing a holy magical warrior. it is much more powerfully done as a rogue/cloistered cleric/unseen seer, but sometimes it is a flavor thing

SurlySeraph
2010-07-04, 05:33 PM
Plus Paladin levels let you use wands of all those nice paladin spells like Rhino's Rush. Hexblade spells are mostly already on your list.

Coidzor
2010-07-04, 05:52 PM
Plus Paladin levels let you use wands of all those nice paladin spells like Rhino's Rush. Hexblade spells are mostly already on your list.

And the fighting pet that uses your BAB and HP one you're better off getting an eternal wand of if you will want it.

Ernir
2010-07-04, 07:21 PM
A point against the Hexblade 2/Sorcerer + gish is that Sorcadins are commonly finished off with Sacred Exorcist (or something else which gives full CL progression and Turn Undead), which clashes alignment-wise with the Hexblade.

Still, since we are on the "Why Sorcadin?" topic... I don't like the build. Seriously, I'd be wearing a "I lost two caster levels and all I got was this stupid Cha to saves" T-shirt out of sheer bitterness. :smallannoyed:

Ravens_cry
2010-07-04, 07:30 PM
One trouble I have is the fluff. Why did you go down the path of being a holy warrior and then start to begin with, only to focus on your latent innate arcane talents? Fluff may be infinitely mutable, but as a DM I would like plausible reasoning.

arguskos
2010-07-04, 07:32 PM
A point against the Hexblade 2/Sorcerer + gish is that Sorcadins are commonly finished off with Sacred Exorcist (or something else which gives full CL progression and Turn Undead), which clashes alignment-wise with the Hexblade.

Still, since we are on the "Why Sorcadin?" topic... I don't like the build. Seriously, I'd be wearing a "I lost two caster levels and all I got was this stupid Cha to saves" T-shirt out of sheer bitterness. :smallannoyed:
Still get 9ths, get a few strong abilities, get two levels of all good saves, get the BAB, it's not exactly as bad as you might think at first blush. :smallwink:

Boci
2010-07-04, 07:37 PM
One trouble I have is the fluff. Why did you go down the path of being a holy warrior and then start to begin with, only to focus on your latent innate arcane talents? Fluff may be infinitely mutable, but as a DM I would like plausible reasoning.

You wanted to harness your powerful personality and someone recomended the reigerous mental training at the Church of X.

You were selected as a paladin, got tired of the training and decided to do arcane instead.

Those two jump to mind.

Shadowleaf
2010-07-04, 07:38 PM
One trouble I have is the fluff. Why did you go down the path of being a holy warrior and then start to begin with, only to focus on your latent innate arcane talents? Fluff may be infinitely mutable, but as a DM I would like plausible reasoning.
What, a holy man cannot explore his latent innate arcane talents, rather than smooch off the power of a God?

In the service of Good, I'd much rather create my own power and use it, than take it from someone on my own side.

Flickerdart
2010-07-04, 07:39 PM
Meditating on your faith, you came to realize that you could serve your deity better by harnessing the power to shape the multiverse to your will rather than learning how to whack things with your sword better.

Boci
2010-07-04, 07:40 PM
Meditating on your faith, you came to realize that you could serve your deity better by harnessing the power to shape the multiverse to your will rather than learning how to whack things with your sword better.

Paladin: I pray to Pelor for guidance on how to summon fourth the strength and courage from within me to vanquish this timeless evil that threatans every man, woman and child of this land.
DM: He says reroll as a cleric.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-04, 07:41 PM
All good reasons. Far better then just "I wanted Charisma to saves" , in my view.

Boci
2010-07-04, 07:42 PM
All good reasons. Far better then just "I wanted Charisma to saves" , in my view.

Of course that is the OOC reason, which as a player I would not deny if the DM asked me. But IC...

Shadowleaf
2010-07-04, 07:45 PM
Of course that is the OOC reason, which as a player I would not deny if the DM asked me. But IC...
You usually have to meet crunch and fluff halfway. I mean, while Bob the Baker is probably fun to play, you'll hate yourself in combat - and on the flip side, Crazy Prepared Generic Wizard will probably be bored of spending 11 hours of the day casting buff spells and not moving outside his demiplane.

Amphetryon
2010-07-04, 07:46 PM
There are several decent fixes that folks have made for Hexblades; any of them might make for a decent alternative to Paladin for a Gish. Without one of those fixes, it's just not strong enough for use in a standard Gish, IMO.

Ernir
2010-07-04, 07:48 PM
One trouble I have is the fluff. Why did you go down the path of being a holy warrior and then start to begin with, only to focus on your latent innate arcane talents? Fluff may be infinitely mutable, but as a DM I would like plausible reasoning.

You realized that you might do more good in the world by focusing on your innate abilities? You found that you didn't have the wisdom to make use of further training as a Paladin? The pineapple stuck up the ******* of your Paladin superior started chafing more than you could handle?

And that is assuming (not unreasonably, perhaps) that the order in which you take levels represents the chronological order in which you gained your abilities. If you're starting at 3rd or after, you always having had some fighting skill and some Sorcerous abilities sounds perfectly reasonable to me...

Still get 9ths, get a few strong abilities, get two levels of all good saves, get the BAB, it's not exactly as bad as you might think at first blush. :smallwink:

Yes, well, it's not bad. I just don't find it spectacular either. I'd rather get proficiencies through a race or a shorter (that is, one level) dip, and Cha to saves, while good, is not a feature I like losing a CL over. =/

ericgrau
2010-07-04, 07:51 PM
Did some quick estimates and you worst save, reflex, is about half a step above "good" save progression. Pick up a couple spells to protect you from physical damage and you're good to go. It's a trade-off, sure, but playable.

RP-wise any explanation does seem contrived. You pretty much have to attribute it to chance (e.g., "paladin didn't work out for me").

Boci
2010-07-04, 07:57 PM
RP-wise any explanation does seem contrived. You pretty much have to attribute it to chance (e.g., "paladin didn't work out for me").

Not really, depends on your attitude to classes and IC knowledge. Is the following metagaming:
"One of the first things holy warrior of the church of pelor learn is how to protect themselves with the raw power of their solid conviction to their cause. For people with strong personalities this becomes a potent defense against a wide range of attack,"
Because then your PC could just go, "Cool. I'm not too keen on the smite evil or cure disease abilities, but that sounds useful. Maybe I could join a church for a short while and then return to the Arcane Academy to graduate."

Stompy
2010-07-04, 08:00 PM
One trouble I have is the fluff. Why did you go down the path of being a holy warrior and then start to begin with, only to focus on your latent innate arcane talents? Fluff may be infinitely mutable, but as a DM I would like plausible reasoning.

I was a paladin under Bahamut and then when I realized through happen-stance to find innate arcana within my being, the clergy didn't disdain it, but rather encouraged it. Truly it was a sign from the almighty.

PId6
2010-07-04, 08:04 PM
Yes, well, it's not bad. I just don't find it spectacular either. I'd rather get proficiencies through a race or a shorter (that is, one level) dip, and Cha to saves, while good, is not a feature I like losing a CL over. =/
The extra BAB from Paladin also fits perfectly into the progression. Otherwise, you'd need Full BAB 1/Sorcerer 6 in order to qualify for Spellsword, and you'll end up with less than 16 BAB overall (or be stuck with Battle Sorcerer, *shudder*).

Claudius Maximus
2010-07-04, 08:06 PM
Sword of the Arcane Order suggests there are groups of Paladins with a magical bent. What about Paladins of a LG magic god, for example? They'd welcome experimentation with this sort of thing.

Edut: Bahamut's a good one too. Isn't sorcery supposedly connected to dragons? They'd love this sort of thing.

mobdrazhar
2010-07-04, 08:07 PM
there is always the "I'm a Paladin of God/Goddess of Magic and thus it is a part of the Natural training of such a Paladin"

Runestar
2010-07-04, 10:00 PM
I once played a paladin/sorc/dragon disciple. Not too shabby, especially when you could apply the bonus slots to paladin.

Of course, nowadays, you are better off just slapping on the half-dragon template and going abjurant champion, finishing off with eldritch knight. :smallmad:

PId6
2010-07-04, 10:16 PM
Of course, nowadays, you are better off just slapping on the half-dragon template and going abjurant champion, finishing off with eldritch knight. :smallmad:
No, you really aren't.

You're better off just being Dragonborn, flavoring yourself as half dragon, going Abjurant Champion, and finishing up with Sacred Exorcist.

Optimystik
2010-07-04, 10:46 PM
Don't forget there are actually 4 alignment flavors of paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny), not just one - all of whom get Cha to saves at 2nd level.

Grifthin
2010-07-04, 11:17 PM
One trouble I have is the fluff. Why did you go down the path of being a holy warrior and then start to begin with, only to focus on your latent innate arcane talents? Fluff may be infinitely mutable, but as a DM I would like plausible reasoning.

Paladin of Mystra.

Jergmo
2010-07-04, 11:23 PM
Don't forget there are actually 4 alignment flavors of paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny), not just one - all of whom get Cha to saves at 2nd level.

Or eight, if you go by homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8652277).

I like having more alignments for paladins. :smallsmile:

On another note, a Paladin/Favored Soul multiclass works well too. A friend and I made a Sorcadin and a Favored Soul combo once (me playing as the Sorcadin). It ended up being a stalemate after an hour and a half or so of duking it out, because my character could hardly be hit and I kept dispelling everything he did, and he had heals...

PId6
2010-07-04, 11:32 PM
Or eight, if you go by homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8652277).

I like having more alignments for paladins. :smallsmile:
There are some in Dragon as well. IIRC 310 is the one that has all the Neutral Paladin variants.

Jergmo
2010-07-04, 11:35 PM
There are some in Dragon as well. IIRC 310 is the one that has all the Neutral Paladin variants.

Devotee Paladin also has the perk of making paladins a bit more competitive, so it works out well!

Coidzor
2010-07-04, 11:35 PM
Devotee Paladin also has the perk of making paladins a bit more competitive, so it works out well!

Wassat and where's it from?

senrath
2010-07-04, 11:40 PM
Wassat and where's it from?

It's the homebrew that was posted on a little bit earlier in the thread.

Coidzor
2010-07-04, 11:53 PM
It's the homebrew that was posted on a little bit earlier in the thread.

Mmm, Tasty.

sambo.
2010-07-04, 11:56 PM
i wouldn't go sorc'adin in a standard campaign.

i WOULD go sorc'adin in Gestalt.

Optimystik
2010-07-05, 12:08 AM
Paladin of Mystra.

To expand on this response, she has an explicit paladin order in Champions of Valor: The Knights of the Mystic Fire, who trade turn undead for increased casting ability.

Coidzor
2010-07-05, 12:22 AM
i wouldn't go sorc'adin in a standard campaign.

i WOULD go sorc'adin in Gestalt.

But what would you do for the next 18 levels on that side?

Eldariel
2010-07-05, 12:29 AM
But what would you do for the next 18 levels on that side?

There's a plenty more to Charisma-stacking than just Paladin! 3xto AC, 2x to saves + 1 vs. spells, et cetera. Cha for everyone to everything!

Coidzor
2010-07-05, 12:30 AM
There's a plenty more to Charisma-stacking than just Paladin! 3xto AC, 2x to saves + 1 vs. spells, et cetera. Cha for everyone to everything!

Oh yes, how could I not Remember Marshall?

Jergmo
2010-07-05, 12:51 AM
Another thing you could do for the gestalt is do the Paladin 4/Favored Soul X/Divine Hammer 1/X Whatever. Divine Hammer is a PRC from Ultimate Prestige Classes Vol. 1. It lets you spend a Turn or Rebuke undead attempt to gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to your Cha bonus. :smallbiggrin:

For the entirety of combat, no less.

balistafreak
2010-07-05, 10:51 AM
Paladin: I pray to Pelor for guidance on how to summon forth the strength and courage from within me to vanquish this timeless evil that threatans every man, woman and child of this land.
DM: He says reroll as a cleric.

I would just like to point out this priceless piece of wit. That is all. :smallbiggrin:

Rothen
2010-07-05, 11:01 AM
I just really love how it's a golden setup for Abjurant Champion.


There's a plenty more to Charisma-stacking than just Paladin! 3xto AC, 2x to saves + 1 vs. spells, et cetera. Cha for everyone to everything!

Yup, I think this was pointed out in the X modifier to Y stat thread. You can slap your Cha Modifier on pretty much anything.