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Baltor
2010-07-04, 10:40 PM
I was just reading through the rules for epic spellcasting and realised that a 7th level caster could create and use an epic spell. I was hoping that the playground would come up with some example epic spells that a 7th level caster could cast with a total spellcraft score of 15 (10 ranks+ 5 int mod). No practical use just interested in what you guys come up with.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-04, 10:42 PM
I didn't realize anyone actually used the epic spells. I'll have to go look them up. Level 9 spells are certainly powerful enough for non-deities.

Defiant
2010-07-04, 10:42 PM
Not quite... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting)

EvilJoe15
2010-07-04, 10:43 PM
It is impossible for a 7th level caster to even have Epic Spellcasting.

As for the rest, I don't want to start something that will get the mods attention.

Keld Denar
2010-07-04, 10:50 PM
You might be able to cheese it a little earlier if you were a venerable aged Dragonwraught Kobold with some tricks like a Words of Creation Bard using Inspire Greatness on you to gain 4 "virtual HD", and then having a psion Psychic Reform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) you to move skill points into Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana, so in theory you could take Epic Spellcasting as your 18th level feat.

Short of that, you'd be hard pressed to meet the prereqs as you have to be a 21st level character (Venerable Dragonwraught Kobold gets around this), have 24 ranks in 2 skills (Insp Greatness + Psychic Reform gets around this), and have 9th level spells (this is the least worry, there are MANY ways to get around this).

So no, no epic spells for your 7th level character. Sorry.

hamishspence
2010-07-05, 03:43 AM
You could import the rules from D20 modern (Urban Arcana) for ritual spellcasting- they use a similar Seed system to epic magic- but are weaker- and avoid some of the cheese- like mitigating down to 0 DC. I think they also avoid the whole "costs loads of XP and money to research unless you cheese them out" problem.

FelixG
2010-07-05, 03:46 AM
snip

Short of that, you'd be hard pressed to meet the prereqs as you have to be a 21st level character (Venerable Dragonwraught Kobold gets around this), have 24 ranks in 2 skills (Insp Greatness + Psychic Reform gets around this), and have 9th level spells (this is the least worry, there are MANY ways to get around this).

So no, no epic spells for your 7th level character. Sorry.

I hate to sound like an idiot, but where does it state that a venerable Dragonwraught Kobold can get epic feats? i looked over their entry and couldnt find it?

hamishspence
2010-07-05, 03:47 AM
Its a holdover from Draconomicon- where it states that "a true dragon of at least Old age qualifies for epic feats"

FelixG
2010-07-05, 03:47 AM
My thanks!

Hendel
2010-07-05, 03:57 AM
Doesn't "True Dragon" mean one of the chromatic or metallic dragons (or the epic, gem, and other varities) and not just Dragon subtype. If it says that you need to be a dragon, then a dragonwrought kobold counts. If it says you need to be a true dragon, then a dragonwrought kobold does not count.

Besides, age categories for true dragons are not the same as age categories for the other races as presented in the PHB. I think you need to be 21st level to get your first epic feat. Otherwise, your DM is playing a little fast and loose with the rules.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 04:12 AM
Doesn't "True Dragon" mean one of the chromatic or metallic dragons (or the epic, gem, and other varities) and not just Dragon subtype. If it says that you need to be a dragon, then a dragonwrought kobold counts. If it says you need to be a true dragon, then a dragonwrought kobold does not count.

Besides, age categories for true dragons are not the same as age categories for the other races as presented in the PHB. I think you need to be 21st level to get your first epic feat. Otherwise, your DM is playing a little fast and loose with the rules.

The dragonwrought kobold is considered a "true dragon" or something as I recall.

Hendel
2010-07-05, 04:40 AM
The dragonwrought kobold is considered a "true dragon" or something as I recall.

All it says under the feat is "Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype." That is not the same as being a True Dragon.

hamishspence
2010-07-05, 04:41 AM
"Grows more powerful as it grows older" is apparently the key feature of "true dragons". A Dragonwrought kobold gets +3 to all its mental stats, and loses nothing to its physical stats, as it grows older- apparently that is enough.

Since "has age categories" is something nearly every player race has- they don't actually have to be dragon age categories.

The fact that (in Races of the Dragon) a kobold actually has age categories from wyrmling to great wyrm, that overlap with the age categories Middle Aged, Old, and Venerable, tends to be brought in to support the "dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons" claims.

It's been discussed on the forum a few times before.

Hendel
2010-07-05, 04:50 AM
"Grows more powerful as it grows older" is apparently the key feature of "true dragons". A Dragonwrought kobold gets +3 to all its mental stats, and loses nothing to its physical stats, as it grows older- apparently that is enough.

Since "has age categories" is something nearly every player race has- they don't actually have to be dragon age categories.

The fact that (in Races of the Dragon) a kobold actually has age categories from wyrmling to great wyrm, that overlap with the age categories Middle Aged, Old, and Venerable, tends to be brought in to support the "dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons" claims.

It's been discussed on the forum a few times before.

If that is the case, then you do not need to be a Dragonwrought Kobold, as that chart applies to all Kobolds. So, if I start out my 1st level Kobold, Dragonwrought or not, at the age of 41 I can get epic feats according to this interpretation. Hmmm...if that is how you want to run your game, then go ahead.

Do Kobolds also get more HD as they gain age categories? According to this claim they should. Just because something has been discussed, does not make it correct.

I still say that nowhere does it say Kobolds, Dragonwrought or not, are True Dragons. Go to your Monster Manual and look up True Dragons and you will see what is meant by that term.

hamishspence
2010-07-05, 04:52 AM
It also says "must have the dragon type"

A half-dragon kobold doesn't qualify- because by default, it ages like a normal Kobold- and gets massive penalties to physical stats.

A dragonwrought kobold does- because it doesn't get these penalties, only the mental stat bonuses.

I also pointed out (at the time) that by those interpretations, a half dragon phaerimm qualifies- since it has the dragon type, and gets more powerful as it gets older.

The Monster Manual dragons don't all qualify- most don't exceed 100 ft long, so don't perfectly match the description. And some dragons don't have wings, yet are still true dragons (Brown Dragons in Monsters of Faerun).

I personally dislike the "DW Kobolds are True dragons" interpretation- but sadly it's RAW.

You can argue that RAI DW kobolds should not be true dragons- but then you run into people saying "Then why did they give them a Wyrmling to Great Wyrm aging table, and rules that ensure they get more powerful as they get older?"

Draconomicon is the main source for "the definition of True Dragons"- and they defined it loosely enough to encompass everything with an aging table, that had been published.

Keld Denar
2010-07-05, 04:58 AM
"True Dragon" is never really explicitly defined. It doesn't say "Chromatic and Metalic dragons only" so some such. Because its not really defined, it can't really have any expressed game mechanics tied to it other than "must be a dragon".

hamishspence
2010-07-05, 05:00 AM
Draconomicon added text to ensure that wyverns, drakes, etc would be defined as "lesser dragons" whereas gem dragons, Oriental Adventures dragons, and so on, would be defined as "true dragons"

However- the text was loose enough to allow dragonwrought kobolds, half-dragon phaerimm, etc, to be counted as true dragons.

Some PRCs, feats, etc, have "must be a true dragon" rather than "must be a dragon" attached to them.