[3.5] Should I even bother with armor?

[Jergmo]

In a friend's campaign that's starting soon, I'm playing a character with the following build: Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 2, currently outfitted in a +1 mithral chain shirt, with an armband that lets her cast Shield on command. Granting a whopping...16 AC (12 Dex) unbuffed, 20 AC buffed. At this point...is there any sense in even having the armor? :smallconfused: Would trying to find ways to at least increase the character's Touch AC be worthwhile? :smallconfused:

[Prodan]

You can fit neat enchantment on armor.

[Hague]

Yeah, just get mithral chain or a similar light armor. As a beguiler there's no reason for you not to have light armor.

[Coidzor]

You already have it. Keep it, put nifty things on it, and get some form of miss chance as your real anti-being hit protection.

[Mushroom Ninja]

AC is one of the weaker forms of defense. Since it is much more cost-effective to pump Attack bonus than AC, it's unlikely that you'll be able to keep your AC ahead of the average attack bonus unless you invest significantly in it. For this reason, I always prefer to stick with more reliable defenses when playing a frail caster. Defenses like staying out of sight (invisibility) and reach (flight) are more reliable in my experience. Miss chances and effects that let you immediately respond to a threat (like celerity, Wings of Cover, and Abrupt Jaunt) are also very good. That said, you can make it so your AC is good enough. It's just more resource-intensive.

[Jergmo]

Hm, yeah, I suppose I should just keep the chain shirt, albeit with no enhancement for now. I do have spells like Displacement and Greater Mirror Image available...perhaps I'll get lucky in the phat lewtz competition. The rest of the party is a blind druid and a bard. It should prove to be interesting. :smalltongue:

[Mushroom Ninja]

I do have spells like Displacement and Greater Mirror Image available...

Just be wary that True Seeing completely hoses these. But then again, True Seeing sort of hoses Beguilers in general. :smallsigh:

[Jergmo]

Just be wary that True Seeing completely hoses these. But then again, True Seeing sort of hoses Beguilers in general. :smallsigh:

Greater Dispel Magic will be my friend when that time comes, I think.

Edit: Actually, wait. I'm reading some things right now, actually, that are proposing that Nondetection will negate the effects of True Seeing, so long as they don't make the caster level check.

[Jack_Simth]

AC is one of the weaker forms of defense. Since it is much more cost-effective to pump Attack bonus than AC, it's unlikely that you'll be able to keep your AC ahead of the average attack bonus unless you invest significantly in it.You don't keep a higher AC for avoiding being hit. You keep a higher AC to cut down on how much Power Attack that attacker is using. See, if they've got an Attack Bonus of 40, and you've got an AC of 20, they can Power Attack for 20, no problems, as it doesn't affect their chance to hit.

If they've got an Attack Bonus of 40, and you've got an AC of 30, they don't power attack for more than about 10 or 15, as that starts to dig into their to-hit chance.

If they've got an Attack Bonus of 40, and you've got an AC of 40, they don't power attack for more than about 5 or ten.

Unless, of course, they're doing a Shock Trooper build....

Now, Displacement, Mirror Image, and the like do help... but they only help you avoid getting hit, and don't always work (True Seeing, Pierce Magical Concealment, Blind-Fight, Blindsight, et cetera), and they won't affect how much Power Attack your opponents can safely use (as Miss Chances are independent of AC).

AC is one defense, out of several in the game that can be attacked. You don't want to neglect it, any more than you want to neglect your Reflex save or your hit points.

[Darrin]

At this point...is there any sense in even having the armor?

Armor is cheaper to enchant than weapons (about half the cost) so you can stick a few +1 enhancements on there, maybe toss a couple on a mithril buckler to keep your costs way down.

Keep an eye out for enhancements with a low fixed cost, too: Easy Travel, for example, only 1500 GP, and can be a huge help for low-Strength characters. Blueshine and Called can also come it handy every once in a while.

You can also add augment crystals to your armor fairly cheaply. The Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection and Lesser Crystal of Mind Cloaking pack a lot of bang for your buck.

[ericgrau]

What do you expect from spending 2,000 of your expected 49,000 gp on armor? Try +2 armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, = 19 AC for 9,000 gp. Still dirt cheap. You could even go higher if you wanted. Next is dusty rose prism ioun stone, +3 armor, +2 ring & amulet. 22 AC is about par at your level; about what you need to evade 50% of attacks from a CR 12 monster.


Since it is much more cost-effective to pump Attack bonus than AC, it's unlikely that you'll be able to keep your AC ahead of the average attack bonus unless you invest significantly in it.
What are you smoking? To get the same above +4 increase on a weapon you need 50,000 gp if starting from a masterwork weapon. 8,000 in enchants < 50,000 in enchants. EDIT: Actually I'd do +4 strength for 16k and a +3 weapon for 18k for a total of +4 over masterwork, but 34k is still much more than 8k. And ya as said below a mithril buckler makes the AC even cheaper

[Siosilvar]

-stuff about power attack and AC-

Of course, if you have an AC of 60 and their attack bonus is 40, they'll just Power Attack for 20 points, because they'll only hit on a natural 20 anyway...

[Lord Vukodlak]

What do you expect from spending 2,000 of your expected 49,000 gp on armor? Try +2 armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, = 19 AC for 9,000 gp. Still dirt cheap. You could even go higher if you wanted. Next is dusty rose prism ioun stone, +3 armor, +2 ring & amulet. 22 AC is about par at your level; about what you need to evade 50% of attacks from a CR 12 monster.

Don't forget something like a mw or mithril buckler, no check penalty no penalty for non proficiency.


Of course, if you have an AC of 60 and their attack bonus is 40, they'll just Power Attack for 20 points, because they'll only hit on a natural 20 anyway...

If the enemy can only hit you on a natural 20, chances are you've already won if that's there primary means of combat.

[Jack_Simth]

Of course, if you have an AC of 60 and their attack bonus is 40, they'll just Power Attack for 20 points, because they'll only hit on a natural 20 anyway...Yes. But at that point, they've only got a 5% chance per strike of hitting. I was mostly addressing the "Attack bonus scales faster than AC" bit, and pointing out that no, you don't want to neglect AC completely. Uberchargers are killed by massed, scattered, low-level archers, that would only hit a normal character of the Ubercharger's level on a nat-20. 128 cr 1/2 nonelite array Elf Warrior-1's with Longbows and Greatswords make for an encounter level of 14, and with their attack bonus of +4 or so, will make mincemeat out of a 15th level Ubercharger who tanked his AC to 5, what with the 128d8+128 damage they'll be dishing out to him every round (actually a bit more than that, due to the x3 crits - actual average for that would be 739.2 damage per round to that Ubercharger, less however many he killed each round).

[Eldariel]

Yes. But at that point, they've only got a 5% chance per strike of hitting. I was mostly addressing the "Attack bonus scales faster than AC" bit, and pointing out that no, you don't want to neglect AC completely. Uberchargers are killed by massed, scattered, low-level archers, that would only hit a normal character of the Ubercharger's level on a nat-20. 128 cr 1/2 nonelite array Elf Warrior-1's with Longbows and Greatswords make for an encounter level of 14, and with their attack bonus of +4 or so, will make mincemeat out of a 15th level Ubercharger who tanked his AC to 5, what with the 128d8+128 damage they'll be dishing out to him every round (actually a bit more than that, due to the x3 crits - actual average for that would be 739.2 damage per round to that Ubercharger, less however many he killed each round).

Except chargers tend to use alternative means of defense and have lots of HP. If they have Starmantle Cloak, it's all over as they're just immune to mooks' attacks, and even if they don't, even simple Ring of Blinking gives them 50% miss chance, let alone cover and all.

But yeah, neglecting AC isn't wise. Investing 50% of your wealth into it isn't wise either. You'll have to find the golden middleroad of pumping your AC with spells while also having miss chances, mirror images and all that, and investing your money into Metamagic Rods, Caster Level Boosters, Anti-Dispel Tools and so on.

[balistafreak]

Except chargers tend to use alternative means of defense and have lots of HP. If they have Starmantle Cloak -

That item is bad, you are bad, and you should feel bad for mentioning it. :smallbiggrin: Who the heck came up with that?


But yeah, neglecting AC isn't wise. Investing 50% of your wealth into it isn't wise either. You'll have to find the golden middleroad of pumping your AC with spells while also having miss chances, mirror images and all that, and investing your money into Metamagic Rods, Caster Level Boosters, Anti-Dispel Tools and so on.

Don't forget saves. They're called "save-or-dies" for a reason. :smallwink:

@ericgrau: Armor enhancements are cheaper than weapon enhancements because while you get additional BAB as you level up, you don't get additional AC. Enhancements are cheaper for balance, but it's still not enough - you have to augment your defense (saves, miss chances, etc.) through other ways to hope to keep up. Walling up completely is infeasible - which on a less related note is a good thing, because that means that games actually end.

[imperialspectre]

What do you expect from spending 2,000 of your expected 49,000 gp on armor? Try +2 armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, = 19 AC for 9,000 gp. Still dirt cheap. You could even go higher if you wanted. Next is dusty rose prism ioun stone, +3 armor, +2 ring & amulet. 22 AC is about par at your level; about what you need to evade 50% of attacks from a CR 12 monster.

CR 12 monsters' hit bonuses:
Abyssal Greater Basilisk: +25 to hit
Adult Brass Dragon: +24 to hit
Young Adult Bronze Dragon: +23 to hit
Eleven-Headed Cryohydra: +16 to hit...done 11 times, and the cryohydra can also hit you with a series of nukes that target one of your weak saves.
Frost Worm: +21 to hit
Kolyarut Inevitable: +11 to hit as a touch attack, so you only have AC 14 with Eric's proposed items
Kraken: +28 to hit
Leonal: +20 to hit
Colossal Monstrous Scorpion: +34 to hit
Elder Black Pudding: +19 to hit, just has to hit you once and then you're dead from improved grab > grapple > constrict
Purple Worm: +25 to hit
Eleven-Headed Pyrohydra: Same as Cryohydra
Roper: +11 ranged touch, or +13 melee to hit. Ranged touch + Strength damage = you're screwed.
Mature Adult White Dragon: +27 to hit

If you adopt Eric's proposed item build for AC, 9 of the 14 CR 12 monsters in the SRD will hit you on a roll of 2 or above with their primary attack form (there are also 2 monsters who primarily use ranged touch attacks, both of which hit on a 3). Most of those monsters have extra attack bonus that they can use to Power Attack and still hit you on a roll of 2 or above.

Your present item selection, with AC 16, does not substantially affect your chances against the 3 remaining monsters, since the hydras can nuke you down (with your bad Reflex save you don't stand much of a chance) and the black pudding only needs to hit you once to get a guaranteed kill (and either hits on a 2 or on a 3, depending on whether you have AC 22 or AC 16).

The fact is that while increasing the attack bonus on a PC is relatively expensive, monsters come pre-loaded with extremely high attack bonuses because their HD usually exceed their CR. The vast majority of monsters that *don't* hit you automatically have SLAs or casting that let them hit you automatically or just kill you outright. AC may be a worthwhile investment if your campaign focuses on humanoid opponents with class levels or if your campaign focuses on large numbers of mooks (which won't have attack bonuses quite as high). Otherwise, you're basically wasting your time even trying to minimize an enemy's Power Attack bonus - generate miss chances and use battlefield control to stop them from even getting to you.

Bottom line: AC boosting with spells = great. AC boosting with items? Not so much.


What are you smoking? To get the same above +4 increase on a weapon you need 50,000 gp if starting from a masterwork weapon. 8,000 in enchants < 50,000 in enchants. EDIT: Actually I'd do +4 strength for 16k and a +3 weapon for 18k for a total of +4 over masterwork, but 34k is still much more than 8k

Or, you know, be a cleric or druid and get way more than +4 off of buff spells. The only people who are at a disadvantage for hitting with melee attacks are humanoids with levels in fighter, ranger*, or similarly weak melee non-casting classes.

[Jack_Simth]

That item is bad, you are bad, and you should feel bad for mentioning it. :smallbiggrin: Who the heck came up with that?



Don't forget saves. They're called "save-or-dies" for a reason. :smallwink:

@ericgrau: Armor enhancements are cheaper than weapon enhancements because while you get additional BAB as you level up, you don't get additional AC. Enhancements are cheaper for balance, but it's still not enough - you have to augment your defense (saves, miss chances, etc.) through other ways to hope to keep up. Walling up completely is infeasible - which on a less related note is a good thing, because that means that games actually end.
How (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticSpherePsionic.htm) sure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#burrowingPower) are (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation) of that? You can be make melee characters cry if you try really hard.

[Mushroom Ninja]

What are you smoking? To get the same above +4 increase on a weapon you need 50,000 gp if starting from a masterwork weapon. 8,000 in enchants < 50,000 in enchants. EDIT: Actually I'd do +4 strength for 16k and a +3 weapon for 18k for a total of +4 over masterwork, but 34k is still much more than 8k. And ya as said below a mithril buckler makes the AC even cheaper

The thing with boosting AC is that, unlike attack bonus, it doesn't grow with levels. While it may be cheaper to buy a +1 enhancement for AC than for attack bonus, you need to constantly keep buying more and more AC boosters just to keep up with BAB.

As an example, consider defending at 10th level against a 10th level fighter. Assuming the fighter started with an 18 STR, he now has a +15 attack bonus without spending any money. Assuming you want to keep him at a 50% hit chance or less against you, you need to pay for a boost in AC of 15. Using +4 fullplate, +1 amulet of Natural armor, +1 ring of protection, and 12+ Dex, you can match this for 21650 GP (it would be cheaper with a shield, but, for now, I'm assuming the character isn't committed to any one fighting style). For 3650 GP less than this, your fighter enemy can buy a +4 Str item and +1 weapon, putting his attack bonus at +18.

It seems to me that at higher levels, this effect would become even more pronounced.

[Milskidasith]

The thing with boosting AC is that, unlike attack bonus, it doesn't grow with levels. While it may be cheaper to buy a +1 enhancement for AC than for attack bonus, you need to constantly keep buying more and more AC boosters just to keep up with BAB.

As an example, consider defending at 10th level against a 10th level fighter. Assuming the fighter started with an 18 STR, he now has a +15 attack bonus without spending any money. Assuming you want to keep him at a 50% hit chance or less against you, you need to pay for a boost in AC of 15. Using +4 fullplate, +1 amulet of Natural armor, +1 ring of protection, and 12+ Dex, you can match this for 21650 GP (it would be cheaper with a shield, but, for now, I'm assuming the character isn't committed to any one fighting style). For 3650 GP less than this, your fighter enemy can buy a +4 Str item and +1 weapon, putting his attack bonus at +18.

It seems to me that at higher levels, this effect would become even more pronounced.

There's also flanking bonuses, charging bonuses, relatively cheaper enhancements with high to-hit bonuses (martial discipline type weapons get a +3 if you use them while in that disciplines stance or using strikes; if your build relies on a certain stance, you can get a constant +3 for the price of +1), buff spells, feat choices, etc. that enhance your to-hit bonus significantly.

As for the archer vs. ubercharger thing... why would the ubercharger use shock trooper then? He could just charge regularly, and even using shock trooper full plate is such an insignificant amount of money you could buy it for just that situation.

[Curmudgeon]

The thing with boosting AC is that, unlike attack bonus, it doesn't grow with levels.
It does if part of the boost comes from spells. The spells maintain the same absolute cost (1 casting of a level X spell), but because casters gain more spells per day and at higher levels, the relative cost becomes cheaper. And yet the benefit scales with caster level, which continues to advance with levels. (Note that CL, because of boosts, often grows faster than casting class levels.)
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at caster level 12th.

[Caphi]

What are you smoking? To get the same above +4 increase on a weapon you need 50,000 gp if starting from a masterwork weapon. 8,000 in enchants < 50,000 in enchants. EDIT: Actually I'd do +4 strength for 16k and a +3 weapon for 18k for a total of +4 over masterwork, but 34k is still much more than 8k. And ya as said below a mithril buckler makes the AC even cheaper

Or he could wait four levels. BAB automatically increases as you level with no further investment, and you've spent a decent and ever-climbing amount of gold just to stay level.

[ericgrau]

EDIT: Now I see what's going on, fixed this post.

The CR 12 monsters' attack bonus did seem unusually high so I checked on the CR 11 and CR 13 monsters and most were much lower. Around 15-20. In my rush to leave home I only had time to check average monster AC when I said 22. I also went with CR 12 instead of Encounter Level 12 (difficult fight for party level 10) by mistake. Multiple CR 8ish monsters is more likely for EL 12, whose attack bonuses ranges from 6ish-12ish. So it seems like AC 22 is still par, if not a little high.

AC isn't a focus of the OPs class and his light armor and low dex already put him behind. So he shouldn't put too much into it. Buffs can handle some of his AC with +1 or +2 items for the rest. He could still put 1/4-1/3rd of his expected wealth into a 50% miss chance, but he'll probably want to go cheaper. A cloak of minor displacement is way too expensive for only 20%, and other spells (besides AC buffs) or items that consume a combat round are a waste of time that could be spent offensively. After all most of a combat happens in the first two rounds.

Class levels give AB far more easily than AC, and gear gives AC far more easily than AB. But as long as we're talking about spending gold, you do buy AC.

[imperialspectre]

EDIT: Now I see what's going on, fixed this post.

The CR 12 monsters' attack bonus did seem unusually high so I checked on the CR 11 and CR 13 monsters and most were much lower. Around 15-20. In my rush to leave home I only had time to check average monster AC when I said 22.

In point of fact, CR 11 monsters pretty consistently hit at +20 or better - their numbers are pretty close to the CR 12 creatures, and CR 13 creatures are even better.

Additionally, referencing the "average" to-hit bonus of creatures at a given CR is incredibly misleading. That average includes creatures that primarily use spells, SLAs, and other things that don't target AC (such as the CR 11 hezrou, which hits at only +14 but has you already stunlocked with blasphemy, slowed with chaos hammer, and nauseated with stench), or creatures that hit with touch attacks (such as the CR 11 dread wraith that Con drains you from the floor). The fact is, creatures that are designed to autoattack AC can practically autohit you, which makes spending gold on AC a straight-up waste.


I also went with CR 12 instead of Encounter Level 12 (difficult fight for party level 10) by mistake. Multiple CR 8ish monsters is more likely for EL 12, whose attack bonuses ranges from 6ish-12ish. So it seems like AC 22 is still par, if not a little high.

Not even close. CR 8 monsters are in the spoiler below.
Elder arrowhawk: +19 ranged touch, +21 bite
Athach: +16 melee attack
Behir: +15 bite
Juvenile blue dragon: +18 to hit
Bodak: +6 to hit...but you have to make a save or die at least once every round. And two of these are a CR 10 encounter.
Juvenile brass dragon: +16 to hit
Seven-headed cryohydra: +10 to hit, 7 times. Or it just kills you with breath nukes.
Destrachan: +9 to hit, but it spams nukes instead of auto-attacking.
Erinyes: +14 to hit, after it charms the party Barbarian.
Tyrannosaurus: +20 to hit
Dire Tiger: +20 to hit, twice, then rakes you.
Efreet: +15 to hit
Noble Djinn: +10 to hit, but it just whirlwinds you instead.
Stone Giant: +17 to hit
Gorgon: +12 to hit, if you survive petrification.
Gray Render: +15 to hit
Juvenile Green Dragon: +17 to hit
Nine-Headed Hydra: +13 to hit, 9 times. Chances are it'll get you about 5 of those times, if it decides to focus you for one full attack.
Lammasu: +12 to hit, unless its Int 16 kicks in and it casts Divine Power first. Then it gets +15 to hit, and hits like a tiger. Or it could just be a caster.
Mohrg: +12 touch attack, Fort or paralyzed. Hits on a 2.
Gargantuan Monstrous Spider: +15 to hit
Dark Naga: +7 to hit, but it's a Sorcerer. Since when did Sorcerers make melee attacks?
Giant Octopus: +10 to hit, 9 times, and 1 hit means you get grappled and killed.
Ogre Mage: +7 to hit. It's a caster.
Seven-Headed Pyrohydra: See Cryohydra.
Greater Shadow: +6 touch attack, Strength drain from floor.
Shield Guardian: +16 to hit.
Skeletal Young Adult Red Dragon: +17 to hit, then gets 5 secondaries at +12.
Gynosphinx: +11 to hit, and no good offensive powers except for its symbols. Pumping AC might actually be helpful on this one, but it still hits you half the time.
Hellwasp Swarm: Doesn't make attack rolls.
Treant: +12 to hit. Pretty weak.
Young Adult White Dragon: +18 to hit
Elder Xorn: +21 to hit

Analysis: The correct range of attack bonuses is +6 to +20. But, out of 33 creatures, 15 (or almost half) hit at +15 or better. Most of the others have attack modes that target touch AC or don't target AC at all, or make so many attacks that a +10 or +12 attack bonus still means you eat a ton of damage.

The way to avoid getting killed by monsters that target AC is to never let them attack you. Investing in initiative bonuses and miss chances is far more efficient than investing in AC. More on that below.


AC isn't a focus of the OPs class and his light armor and low dex already put him behind. So he shouldn't put too much into it. Buffs can handle some of his AC with +1 or +2 items for the rest. He could still put 1/4-1/3rd of his expected wealth into a 50% miss chance, but he'll probably want to go cheaper. A cloak of minor displacement is way too expensive for only 20%, and other spells (besides AC buffs) or items that consume a combat round are a waste of time that could be spent offensively. After all most of a combat happens in the first two rounds.

Class levels give AB far more easily than AC, and gear gives AC far more easily than AB. But as long as we're talking about spending gold, you do buy AC.

As long as we're talking spending gold, a wand of Greater Mirror Image costs 21,000 gold, can be activated as an immediate action at the beginning of every combat for 50 encounters (which is way more than enough to level up to the point where a 4th-level spell slot is relatively insignificant), and gives you the equivalent of AC 10 higher than your opponent's attack bonus at a minimum unless your opponent has True Seeing - a rarity at this level. Oh, and it works against touch attacks, too. Or, we could spend half the gold and still get hit easily by the majority of monsters 2 levels below the PC.

Or, we could invest in 5,000 gold worth of Hide and Move Silently boosters, take the Darkstalker feat, and just avoid being targeted while spamming glitterdust, slow, and solid fog spells. I'd spend another 4,000 gold on a +1 warning dagger, getting a +5 bonus to initiative and thereby helping ensure that I can start spamming battlefield control before the enemy gets to attack. A Greater Mirror Image if I thought I'd get attacked would be fine, but why bother if I'm never getting targeted?

[tiercel]

Given that a +1 mithral chain shirt is such a relatively insignificant amount of your recommended Wealth By Level, I'm not sure why you wouldn't have it. Sure, against primary melee types main attacks it won't do much, but there are plenty of reasons to have a modest amount of cheap AC: Power Attack, iterative attacks, mooks, primary melee foes who have a relatively garbage-y secondary ranged attack, etc.

Granted, as full spellcaster by 10th level if you are suffering very many direct physical (especially melee) attacks then you (not to mention your party) are probably doing something wrong. For the times when it's unavoidable, the unholy abomination that is greater mirror image will do a pretty disgustingly good job of protecting you in most circumstances, assuming the DM hasn't had a word or two to say about that spell. (I'm pretty sure it has been FAQ-clarified that swift-action spells in wands still take standard actions to activate, which makes wands of those spells not nearly so good to have unless your DM houserules otherwise.)

Given that a Beguiler gets sneaky skills and divination magic, you should have a better-than-average chance of knowing when a fight is coming and being able to buff yourself/your buddies/set up a surprise. Blinding color surge is also a nice Beguiler standby -- attack while gaining invisible status, which lets you get out of sticky situations or just activate your Cloaked Casting ability.

A lot of people say that true seeing nukes Beguilers but... honestly true seeing isn't that easy to get unless you are/are grouped with a high level spellcaster, and if that's the case you're probably well-advised to lead off combat with a greater dispel anyway. (Since arcane sight and its greater version are on your list, you should be on the watch for buffed opponents anyhow.) Also true seeing only extends for 120' -- plenty for most dungeon crawl environments, but if you can engage at greater range than that (e.g. outdoors/flying) you can simply ignore the spell until/unless your enemies can close.

So ... yeah. You probably shouldn't be dumping a lot of your Wealth By Level into really cranking your AC, but doing some cheap cost-effective boosting is just an insurance policy to help ablate incoming damage that gets past your other defenses / in the (hopefully) rare cases you don't have those defenses up.

[AvatarZero]

Heavily pumped up armor, as everyone else has already said, is probably not the best use of your cash. That said, a +1 mithral t-shirt is still worth having; it's cheap and it's another type of magic item for you, one that you can pile a lot of enchantments on to without escalating their prices or taking up slots. Look at the static cost armor enchantments like Shadow, Silent Moves, or Slick. In particular, compare Shadow to a Cloak of Elvenkind.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#shadow
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofElvenkind

The shadow enhancement costs 3750 gp and grants a +5 comp bonus to Hide. A Cloak of Elvenkind costs 2500gp and does the same, but it's then taking up your Shoulders magic item slot. For about the same price of going from +1 armor to +2 armor, you can get a +5 to Hide (which will probably save you from more hits than the AC boost) and you can keep whatever other cloak you wanted. Same deal for Silent Moves vs Boots of Elvenkind.

Have fun.:smallsmile:

[imperialspectre]

For the times when it's unavoidable, the unholy abomination that is greater mirror image will do a pretty disgustingly good job of protecting you in most circumstances, assuming the DM hasn't had a word or two to say about that spell. (I'm pretty sure it has been FAQ-clarified that swift-action spells in wands still take standard actions to activate, which makes wands of those spells not nearly so good to have unless your DM houserules otherwise.)

The Rules Compendium indicates that activating a wand or scroll of a spell that takes an immediate/swift to activate takes the same activation time.

[Jergmo]

Whoa, this thread is still kicking?


The shadow enhancement costs 3750 gp and grants a +5 comp bonus to Hide. A Cloak of Elvenkind costs 2500gp and does the same, but it's then taking up your Shoulders magic item slot. For about the same price of going from +1 armor to +2 armor, you can get a +5 to Hide (which will probably save you from more hits than the AC boost) and you can keep whatever other cloak you wanted. Same deal for Silent Moves vs Boots of Elvenkind.

Have fun.:smallsmile:

I've got a Cloak of Elvenkind and Resistance +2, which multiplies the cost of Cloak of Elvenkind by 1.5, or...3,750 gp. :smalltongue:

[Jergmo]

I'm coming up with a list of anything with a noticeable price on my character's person, currently. Hopefully this will make things a bit easier. The "Charms" are based off of "Tools" from MIC.

Mithral chain shirt (1,250 gp)
Band of Shield (CL 1) (1,800 gp)
Ring of Feather falling (2,200 gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Boots of Elvenkind (2,500 gp)
Cloak of Elvenkind and Resistance +2 (7,750 gp)
Amulet of Health +2 (4,000 gp)
Charm of Benediction (CL 4) 1/day (2,880 gp) - 10 minutes/level, Touch. +2 on saving throws, allows you to re-roll one attack roll, saving throw or skill check.
Charm of Camouflage (CL 1) 1/day (360 gp)
Charm of Fly (CL 5) 1/day (5,400 gp)
Charm of Spider Climb (CL 3) 1/day (2,160 gp)
Headband of Intellect +2 (4,000 gp)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Silence (3,000 gp)
Rod of Magic Missile (CL 5) (9,000 gp) (I wanted to be able to deal -some- halfway reliable damage, just in case.)

[imperialspectre]

Lose the rod of MM. It's a complete waste. You can nuke with shadow evocation and shadow conjuration if you must do damage, but normally you should just spend your actions making the enemy unable to do anything. Undead, things that have true seeing, and the other creatures that are considered scary for beguilers can be neutralized with solid fog and glitterdust, two of the best spells in the game.

If you have access to the Spell Compendium, get a wand of nerveskitter. Gets you an initiative bonus, which makes you harder to kill because the enemy gets fewer chances to act. Consider also a dagger or crossbow with the Warning enhancement (MIC), which will increase your initiative further. Since your Dexterity is bad, you need as many bonuses to initiative as you can get. It's your best defensive ability - make them physically unable to threaten you.

[Jergmo]

Lose the rod of MM. It's a complete waste. You can nuke with shadow evocation and shadow conjuration if you must do damage, but normally you should just spend your actions making the enemy unable to do anything. Undead, things that have true seeing, and the other creatures that are considered scary for beguilers can be neutralized with solid fog and glitterdust, two of the best spells in the game.

If you have access to the Spell Compendium, get a wand of nerveskitter. Gets you an initiative bonus, which makes you harder to kill because the enemy gets fewer chances to act. Consider also a dagger or crossbow with the Warning enhancement (MIC), which will increase your initiative further. Since your Dexterity is bad, you need as many bonuses to initiative as you can get. It's your best defensive ability - make them physically unable to threaten you.

Magic items outside of Core and the Complete series aren't allowed, but we've been allowed to create our own items within the rules of spells available.

Also, isn't activating a wand still a standard action, regardless of the casting time of the spell? :smallconfused:

[balistafreak]

Also, isn't activating a wand still a standard action, regardless of the casting time of the spell? :smallconfused:

I distinctly remember getting shot down by Curmudgeon or something from the Rules Compendium about a Wand of Wraithstrike, or something like that.

Point being, spell-completion items take the same action to use as the spells they emulate. Wraithstrike is activated as a swift action.

Oh yes. :smallcool:

[Tyger]

I've got a Cloak of Elvenkind and Resistance +2, which multiplies the cost of Cloak of Elvenkind by 1.5, or...3,750 gp. :smalltongue:

If you are using the rules in the MiC, then their shouldn't be an extra 1.5 times cost for adding resistance to the item - check the Adding Common Effects to Items rules... page 223 or thereabouts if I recall correctly.

But yes, to the original point of the thread, there are far better things to spend your cash on than AC, though a touch of it (such as the aforementioned +1 Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt) is never a bad idea. If you can be seen, targeted and actually need the AC all that often, its time to re-evaluate your tactics. Concealment, invisibility, illusions, etc. Those are your real defences.

[Jergmo]

Well, let's see...my feats as of right now are:

Nymph's Kiss (+2 on Cha-related checks, +1 to saves vs. spells, +1 skill point/level)
Spell Focus(Enchantment)
Shadow Weave Magic (+1 to DC and caster level for Enchantment/Illusion/Necromancy, -1 caster level for Evocation and Transmutation, can't activate magic items that produce light if they have a Command word)
Silent Spell (Bonus)
Mindsight (1 level in Mindbender, allows me to detect every intelligent creature within range of my Telepathy, determining their current square and Intelligence scores)
Song of the Dead (metamagic feat, +1 level, mind-affecting spell affects intelligent undead)
Insidious Magic (anti-Divination against my Illusion spells - they've gotta make a caster level check equal to 11+my caster level to see through them or detect/etc.)

I already have one flaw, can't do another. I'd go for Improved Initiative, but I need to figure out which is least important for now. I'm guessing it's a choice between Spell Focus(Enchantment) and Song of the Dead... :smallconfused: The next feat is 2 levels away...

Also, unfortunately, Shadow Weave Magic required that I increase my wisdom to 15 so I ended up having to reduce Dex to 10. :smallfrown: It seemed like a better choice than losing the Con bonus.