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Vallum
2010-07-05, 02:46 AM
WHAH-CHA!
3.5 Exotic melee challenge

All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns
~ Bruce Lee

By far, the utmost of fighter philosophies. Not the fighter when we view in a players handbook, or glance at a small 'dip' of melee proficiency in a structure of a character. But the fighter who, truely, can fight. Not with magic, not with divine intervention, but with the entire being, (ming, body, soul), being put into combat, to put life in action.... Who better to know of the way of martial ability then one of the greatest martial arts philosophers in history in our time? Like many of us whom play D&D, Bruce Lee expanded upon what was set, and reached out for the impossible, and made it probable, even logical.

I see too much unused... So many weapons, aka opportunities, that are never touched. For what? Every being who'd rush in the midst of combat also start running to use what are elaborated methods of combat? A spiked chain is hardly exotic anymore by any means. Ever fighter and their mothers know how to use one.

Where is the fun in that? will we ever reach beyond our cookie cutter builds, reach beyond what is know like a real fighter has?

Thats why I propose a challenge. REAL exotic melee builds, using weapons that baffle people just by the mere sight of them. The beauty of whirling the dwarven ugrosh, cutting foes left and stabbing others right, instead of smashing everyone like a baby ogre finding out for the first time in his life what the sound of goblins beneath a hammer is.

So, rules and such

Sources
Core plus Completes, Tome of Battle, Oriental adventures, and Arms & Equipment Guide.
No Dragon magazine, no Unearthed Arcana, and No Leadership (keeps things simple enough)

Time
to be announced after entry's/volunteers are in. IF requested, I can post-pone this if it is conflicting with other contests

Boiled-down point of what we're looking for
+ positive points +
Originality (the main point of this challenge)
Power (whats the point of being able to wield an awesome weapon without it being applicable)
Elegance (I like to fit my classes on that single line on character sheets, don't you?)

(a little cheese is fine, but don't drown my kung-fu nachos with it... and something new from the same old cheddar would have my taste buds thanking you)

Submissions
Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. One build per competitor.

Ranks
We shall be using the evaluation scale of 1 through 10, 1 being the worst melee fighter in existence, 10 being a kung-fu legend of the likes never seen before.

The Flourishing points of your martial prodigy
Each stage in this students development into the legend intrigues all to see. Whether you have the basic four elements,(the four minimum points of development), or 7, (max), feel free to present each stage where ever you want, with the overall method of martial prowess and please give a rundown of why you chose your weapon, and how your fighter's abilities and playability at all of the levels truly show show the unknown path of the true warrior is played.

Parameters
To make it clear, no arcane/divine/psionic classes, Tome of Battle is allowed, (but, again, the more unexpected and different your build, the more I'll look in favor of it, so not to heavy on the ToB)

The build must use one or more of the following weapons

Club, Spear (short/long), Cutting Wheel, Hook Sword, Monk Spade, Quaterstaff, Javelin, Trident, Throwing Axe, Pick (Light/Heavy), Scythe, Kama, Sai, Nunchaku, Saingham, Orc Double Axe, Gnome Hooked hammer, Dwarven Ugrosh, Bolas, Nets, Shurikens, Dire Flail, Khopesh, Nekode, Shikomi-zue, Three-Section Staff, War Fan, Chakram, Harpoon, Duom, Mancatcher
IF you can find a weapon yet to be used in a popular build not mentioned here, send me a Pm and ask

Judges
awaiting offers

Contestants
awaiting entries

Examples of previous builds of unexpected fighting styles
Optimized Urgrosh use! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864142/Urgosh_Optimization?post_id=338164714#338164714)
Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)
*yes, I did base the format and idea off of Prinny's excellent Iron chef optimization contest. He's awesome :D

Eldariel
2010-07-05, 10:15 AM
Query: What exactly are the challenge parameters? Only that you must use one of those weapons in a build?

Also, is there a limit to the number of builds you may post?

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-05, 10:19 AM
:smallwink:I read about this pretty good crusader build that used shuriken...

Greenish
2010-07-05, 10:30 AM
IF you can find a weapon yet to be used in a popular build not mentioned here, send me a Pm and askWhat if I find a popular build that uses significant portion of the weapons mentioned? :smalltongue:

Vallum
2010-07-05, 11:14 AM
Query: What exactly are the challenge parameters? Only that you must use one of those weapons in a build?

Also, is there a limit to the number of builds you may post?

Thank you for pointing that out, it is fix'd and is now posted above.


:smallwink:I read about this pretty good crusader build that used shuriken...

Sounds interesting. I would love to see shurikens used in a viable way.... (and any other weapon posted XD)

But the way you put it reminds me of something I want to state: the purpose of this contest is to create something that is new and creative. Pre-created builds will be an automatic 1.

This is nothing against you tinydwarfman, I know you wouldn't do something like that


What if I find a popular build that uses significant portion of the weapons mentioned? :smalltongue:

If you wish, you can use more then one of the listed weapons. Thank you for pointing that out, I updated the rules.

Prime32
2010-07-05, 11:21 AM
Sounds interesting. I would love to see shurikens used in a viable way.... (and any other weapon posted XD)

But the way you put it reminds me of something I want to state: the purpose of this contest is to create something that is new and creative. Pre-created builds will be an automatic 1.

This is nothing against you tinydwarfman, I know you wouldn't do something like thatHe was referring to the build which deals infinite damage with a 1d2 weapon.

On sianghams, it has been pointed out to me that Colossal ones offer the best damage-to-weight ratio for telekinetic fighters.

Eldariel
2010-07-05, 11:25 AM
Thank you for pointing that out, it is fix'd and is now posted above.

No divine caster classes makes me frown. :smallfrown: I had many ideas for presenting unique abilities of some of those weapons but they all happen to depend on certain spells. Well, at least it's clear now.

Vallum
2010-07-05, 02:29 PM
He was referring to the build which deals infinite damage with a 1d2 weapon.

On sianghams, it has been pointed out to me that Colossal ones offer the best damage-to-weight ratio for telekinetic fighters.

XD noted


No divine caster classes makes me frown. :smallfrown: I had many ideas for presenting unique abilities of some of those weapons but they all happen to depend on certain spells. Well, at least it's clear now.

Sorry :smallfrown:
maybe next time

Eldariel
2010-07-05, 03:02 PM
Sorry :smallfrown:
maybe next time

Y'know what? I'm gonna post one here. That way it's not a legal challenge entry and yet, I get to showcase a Truemonk (that is, Druid focused on Quarterstaff to fight like a real oriental monastic Staff Fighter complete with animal aspects foreal!). The rewards don't really matter all that much anyways; for the fun, for the game.

JaronK
2010-07-05, 03:05 PM
Note that Harpoons are already used in known builds. They're great when used with Hulking Hurler/Warhulks.

JaronK

Marriclay
2010-07-05, 03:05 PM
as far as sources go, is that all we're limited to? And how does grappling go as far as underused weapons are concerned?

Eldariel
2010-07-05, 03:07 PM
Note that Harpoons are already used in known builds. They're great when used with Hulking Hurler/Warhulks.

JaronK

Actually, I'd go as far as to say most Thrower-builds can get a lot of mileage out of them; adding a debuff to every attack you make is huge and something like Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower can do a lot with it.

Also, Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) makes good use of various exotic weapons for that matter.

Claudius Maximus
2010-07-05, 04:12 PM
On sianghams, it has been pointed out to me that Colossal ones offer the best damage-to-weight ratio for telekinetic fighters.

That depends on how the weight scales. It can be argued that weight is multiplied by 8 for each size category after large, since that's how it's supposed to work, and the medium-large doubling works as a specific exception.

Keld Denar
2010-07-05, 04:12 PM
Optimized Urgrosh use! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864142/Urgosh_Optimization?post_id=338164714#338164714)

This is my build, just under a different user name.

Amphetryon
2010-07-05, 04:22 PM
Actually, I'd go as far as to say most Thrower-builds can get a lot of mileage out of them; adding a debuff to every attack you make is huge and something like Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower can do a lot with it.

Also, Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) makes good use of various exotic weapons for that matter.Good call.

I was about to say that Master of Masks, featured in our most recently completed Iron Chef, makes EWP issues go away...

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-07-05, 05:26 PM
I totally understand what your going for here. However, if a weapon doesn't have a unique mechanic or combination of mechanics then any warrior built
around it will just be a reiteration of a classic charger/tripper/thrower/Two-weapon fighter etc.

Shortspear-Actually gets a fair amount of play at low levels and commoner/0-level games. It does respectable damage, can be used 1 or 2 handed, it can be power attacked with, it can be throw with a range increment of 20ft also it's dirt cheap.

Longspear has all the advantages of shortspear but it can't be used one handed and it gets a one step increase in damage. Also it's easy to see a commoner weilding them without any formal training. If you can't spring for a crossbow then mechanically these should always be your weapon of choice as critical hits are much less important than reliable damage in low level/power games.

Also some very strong Spartan builds use spears.

Net and Trident on top of net's useful mechanic has the Net & Trident feat and because of that they have numerous Retiarii builds.

Scythe-Sometimes gets carried around at low levels for coup de graces that are guaranteed to kill. Otherwise prety useless outside of it's flavor value but, that gets it a fair amount of play too.

Bolas-Can actually be useful, they'd probably see more use if they weren't exotic. Then they'd actually make a great niche weapon for any fighter's bag of tricks. As is though your better off taking a stronger ranged weapon and taking a level of Master Tripper for the ranged trip trick.

Harpoon- Has an amazing mechanic, I'd kinda assumed there was a well known build. If not I've got a good one I'll share. Need to get home tommorrow it isn't saved on my laptop.

I could be forgeting an ability of one of the oriental weapons you listed.

If you really want to see more weapons used you need more feats exclusive to individual weapons making them have some mechanical advantage. A big part of the problem comes from the simplicity of d20 and most other rpgs not accounting for advantages like armor penetration, strike speed, fatigue etc.

Vallum
2010-07-05, 11:07 PM
Y'know what? I'm gonna post one here. That way it's not a legal challenge entry and yet, I get to showcase a Truemonk (that is, Druid focused on Quarterstaff to fight like a real oriental monastic Staff Fighter complete with animal aspects foreal!). The rewards don't really matter all that much anyways; for the fun, for the game.

Awesome, I'd love to see it... I could use all the ideas I can get my hands on for my campaign


as far as sources go, is that all we're limited to? And how does grappling go as far as underused weapons are concerned?

As listed up at the first post, Core + completes, ToB, A&E, and UA


Optimized Urgrosh use! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864142/Urgosh_Optimization?post_id=338164714#338164714)

This is my build, just under a different user name.

Well, thats an established and quite effective build you have made... This challenge is to come up with any new ways to use these exotic weapons. I'm going to be making an example section and post the link there to inspire any participants.


Note that Harpoons are already used in known builds. They're great when used with Hulking Hurler/Warhulks

I thought hurler's just threw giant rocks at people?


...Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) makes good use of various exotic weapons for that matter.

Its a great example of what I'm aiming for in this challenge: to come up with new and unexpected ways of combat builds in D&D... Seriously, I have yet to see an awesome nunchaku build. But we can all imagine how awesome it could be to anyone who's seen Bruce Lee movies. Fists of Fury in particular, with all the Japanese students looking in wonder and fright when Bruce pulls out his nunchuks and starts serving up an awesome dish of martial arts.


I totally understand what your going for here. However, if a weapon doesn't have a unique mechanic or combination of mechanics then any warrior built around it will just be a reiteration of a classic charger/tripper/thrower/Two-weapon fighter etc.

Shortspear-Actually gets a fair amount of play at low levels and commoner/0-level games. It does respectable damage, can be used 1 or 2 handed, it can be power attacked with, it can be throw with a range increment of 20ft also it's dirt cheap.

Longspear has all the advantages of shortspear but it can't be used one handed and it gets a one step increase in damage. Also it's easy to see a commoner weilding them without any formal training. If you can't spring for a crossbow then mechanically these should always be your weapon of choice as critical hits are much less important than reliable damage in low level/power games.

Also some very strong Spartan builds use spears.

Net and Trident on top of net's useful mechanic has the Net & Trident feat and because of that they have numerous Retiarii builds.

Scythe-Sometimes gets carried around at low levels for coup de graces that are guaranteed to kill. Otherwise prety useless outside of it's flavor value but, that gets it a fair amount of play too.

Bolas-Can actually be useful, they'd probably see more use if they weren't exotic. Then they'd actually make a great niche weapon for any fighter's bag of tricks. As is though your better off taking a stronger ranged weapon and taking a level of Master Tripper for the ranged trip trick.

Harpoon- Has an amazing mechanic, I'd kinda assumed there was a well known build. If not I've got a good one I'll share. Need to get home tommorrow it isn't saved on my laptop.

I could be forgeting an ability of one of the oriental weapons you listed.

If you really want to see more weapons used you need more feats exclusive to individual weapons making them have some mechanical advantage. A big part of the problem comes from the simplicity of d20 and most other rpgs not accounting for advantages like armor penetration, strike speed, fatigue etc.
This post is the entire point why I wanted to hold this challenge
All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns
each of these weapons, (aside from the Harpoon I keep hearing about and will remove if you could kindly show me the build you're talking about), wouldn't be chosen over something more popular. Why use a greatclub when you can use a greatsword, or why use a longspear instead of a glaive, est.... I just wanted to see new, clever ways the board members here could pull up in using these underused weapons, in all levels of play. Thus the point of this challenge. Who knows, maybe the entries will surprise us, (you sound like a perfect candidate for a judge, slots are still open)

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-07-06, 08:13 AM
My post had two purposes one to show that some of the weapons you mentioned do get used. Secondly to point out that to be worth using for a dedicated fighter you need some kind of unique advantage like the net & trident feat.

If you really want an outside the box fighter be a ToB character either an unarmed swordsage or a warblade with superior unarmed strike then find a way to allow them to use more weapons like the gladiator Mask for either or just depending on warblades ability to shift feats around. Now you can walk around unarmed and disarm/pick up whatever weapon you want for whatever advantage it gives you then toss it aside or better yet get throw anything too.

Amphetryon
2010-07-06, 08:23 AM
I thought hurler's just threw giant rocks at people?
I'm pretty sure one of the Beastmaster Iron Chef entries over at BG combined it with Hulking Hurler to throw Dire Tigers or some such silliness.... at which point it becomes, potentially, an 'established build' and therefore not eligible for the contest?

Without a clearer definition of 'established build', we could potentially be data-mining Google and the D&D wiki for a very long time to eliminate any builds posted previously, on the grounds that they are 'established.'

IdleMuse
2010-07-06, 10:12 AM
How much pointbuy?

Private-Prinny
2010-07-06, 10:22 AM
*yes, I did base the format and idea off of Prinny's excellent Iron chef optimization contest. He's awesome :D

Disclaimer: The Iron Chef Challenge has been on this board longer than I have. And on BG before that. Thank you for the flattery, though. :smalltongue:

This contest is interesting, and I'm just going to sit on the sidelines and watch. Personally, I'm wondering if anything can be done with a gnome hooked hammer.

Vallum
2010-07-07, 11:12 AM
How much pointbuy?

32 point-buy


This contest is interesting, and I'm just going to sit on the sidelines and watch. Personally, I'm wondering if anything can be done with a gnome hooked hammer.

And finally make that gnome in complete warrior under exotic weapon master amazing!


I'm pretty sure one of the Beastmaster Iron Chef entries over at BG combined it with Hulking Hurler to throw Dire Tigers or some such silliness.... at which point it becomes, potentially, an 'established build' and therefore not eligible for the contest?

Without a clearer definition of 'established build', we could potentially be data-mining Google and the D&D wiki for a very long time to eliminate any builds posted previously, on the grounds that they are 'established.'

But even though its combining the well known builds, its still something new, (trying to fit two builds in one can be, allot of the time impressive if done right.... at worst, a mystic theurge).

Well known = established in this case. Look at the examples in the first post. not using an established build would be not copy-pasting what has been another persons hard work in creative optimization.

Keld Denar
2010-07-07, 11:55 AM
Gnome Hooked Hammer wouldn't be that hard. You use the same 2handed Flurry trick I use in the Urgrosh build, except it'll be a bit less impressive due to the Str penalty inherant in Gnomes. You could alternatively be a Gnome Duskblade, dip a level in EWM at 7, use the GHH as an actual double weapon as Garl intended, and rely on Knowledge Devotion + Arcane Strike to give you enough bonus damage to make TWF worth it.