Help me out here: cleric variant

[Eldan]

I had a few ideas for slightly redoing the core cleric. Part of it was that, instead of turning undead, clerics would turn one type of creature depending on their main domain. So far I have:

Air: Turns earth
Animal: turns animals
Chaos: turns lawful outsiders
Death: turns deathless
Destruction: turns constructs
Earth: turns air
Evil: turns good outsiders
Fire: turns water
Good: turns evil outsiders
Law: turns chaotic outsiders
Life: turns undead
Plant: turns plants
Sun: turns shadow creatures
Water: turns fire

Which leaves: Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Protection, Strength and War. For all of them, I have no idea what they should turn. All of the others were pretty easy, those are harder.

One idea I had was giving war clerics the ability to turn humanoids, basically by scaring them. For strength, I had the idea to do either giants or monstrous humanoids: you impress them with your strengths. All of those, however, are pretty weird, and for some, it doesn't really fit. What do you turn with the power of Knowledge, exactly? Yeah.
So, should I drop the idea? Do something else with it?

[vampire2948]

It is an odd idea.. giving turning a completely different use.

Would you be changing the function of Turn Resistance on Undead too?

I'd change it to a certain buff that is usable on yourself or a party member.. rather than simply to different types of enemy. Which would make certain domains pretty useless in terms of turning. How often does the average party come up against deathless? or plants?

Vampire2948,

[Thieves]

Maybe I can be of some help:

Knowledge: creatures with Intelligence lower than 1/4th of your Intelligence. With the power of knowledge you turn stupid things.
Magic: usable up to 2 rounds after creature uses a magical ability (spell, spell-like ability, supernatural).
Protection: if creature dealt damage to an ally for two (or three) rounds in a row (maybe above a certain threshold, e.g. twice their Con modifier)
Strength: if creature used Str-based attacks for two (three) rounds in a row.
War: if creature attacked you willingly (started the fight / was not trying to act peacefully).

As for Luck, well. Against agents of Fate (law-enforcing outsiders anyone?), or for up to five rounds after you roll any natural 20 or any natural 1, or if you roll 16 or above on your turning check? (25% chance to be Lucky and fire off)

I guess Death could turn anything that is immune to aging / immortal and / or immune to death attacks. (don't really know what deathless means :smallredface:)

Core domains are A WALK IN THE PARK. Did you have a look at Spell Compendium domains? Community? Competition? Family? Trade? "Turn everyone that owes you money"? These are the hard ones! :smallfurious:

Overall, I think it's a neat idea, certainly adding some variety. Imagine once being a jungle-bred cleric in a jungle-adventure that, coincidentally, doesn't have any undead to turn. You have Animal and Plant domain and you only face dire Animals and bloodthirsty Plants. This way you'd finally get some turning without the DM absolutely having to infest every place in the world with undead. (oh poor body-cremating cultures!)

I'm currently working on a cleric-like class heavily affected by domains, won't you mind if I use this turning mechanic there as well?

[Ashtagon]

I certainly think the "channel divine energy" ability should have something beyond merely turning undead, but I don't think "turn doobrie" is the answer. Perhaps each domain should have something unique, rather than just scaring off something vaguely related. Perhaps the Strength domain can create an aura of weakness (Will save or lose 1d6 Str) that lasts one minute. Maybe the Knowledge domain allows a +10 bonus on a single Knowledge check each time you channel that divine energy. And so on.

[Thieves]

I certainly think the "channel divine energy" ability should have something beyond merely turning undead, but I don't think "turn doobrie" is the answer.

And who's looking for an "answer"? It's just an attempt to diversify -> add variety -> add fun. Also, with my 'jungle example', one reason still stands. Whether the cleric can turn both the undead and the creatures from his domains is a question of balance, but turning isn't an ability easily breakable, is it? (DMM aside)


Perhaps each domain should have something unique, rather than just scaring off something vaguely related. Perhaps the Strength domain can create an aura of weakness (Will save or lose 1d6 Str) that lasts one minute. Maybe the Knowledge domain allows a +10 bonus on a single Knowledge check each time you channel that divine energy. And so on.

This means basically just expanding domains' Granted Powers with What Happens When You Turn. Obviously, you can do that just as well. And sorry, turning / rebuking water / fire creatures with a Water domain is not at all "vaguely related".

[Ashtagon]

This means basically just expanding domains' Granted Powers with What Happens When You Turn. Obviously, you can do that just as well. And sorry, turning / rebuking water / fire creatures with a Water domain is not at all "vaguely related".

I never said those were. But certainly some of the suggestions for turning (eg Knowledge domain vs Int 1-2 creatures) were rather tenuous.

[paddyfool]

This strikes me as a silly-but-fun idea (or fun-but-silly), and best suited to campaigns of that type. That said, I suggest that with the "Luck" domain you can attempt to turn anyone/thing that has rolled a 1 on a D20 since your last round, since they are temporarily tainted with "unluck", and that the "War" domain works against anyone who recently tried to Bluff/Diplomance you out of a fight. ("You think you can weasel your way out with words? You are no true warrior. Begone in the name of [insert deity here]!" Bonus marks if you double their HD and they burst into flame).

[Shpadoinkle]

What do you turn with the power of Knowledge, exactly?

Barbarians. Probably fighters too.

[Thieves]

I never said those were. But certainly some of the suggestions for turning (eg Knowledge domain vs Int 1-2 creatures) were rather tenuous.

In one other world I know, there are deities that threaten you with Burning Eternally for just not acknowledging them. Getting your buttocks whooped because you actually cosmically are nearly too dumb to live when your deity is the god(dess) of epistemology and grasping the world ends up low on the "tenuous" scale. Now that I think of it, ok, maybe it should be just those without an Int score, but that's 20th c. outlook on animals, in fantasy / medieval times they would be looked at as not really sentient or knowledgable.

Or did you, by "tenuous", just mean it's rarely applicable in-game?

And, in all honesty, thanks for the word, I got a +1 to vocabulary :smallwink:

[The Anarresti]

I had a few ideas for slightly redoing the core cleric. Part of it was that, instead of turning undead, clerics would turn one type of creature depending on their main domain. So far I have:

Air: Turns earth
Animal: turns animals
Chaos: turns lawful outsiders
Death: turns deathless
Destruction: turns constructs
Earth: turns air
Evil: turns good outsiders
Fire: turns water
Good: turns evil outsiders
Law: turns chaotic outsiders
Life: turns undead
Plant: turns plants
Sun: turns shadow creatures
Water: turns fire

Which leaves: Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Protection, Strength and War. For all of them, I have no idea what they should turn. All of the others were pretty easy, those are harder.

One idea I had was giving war clerics the ability to turn humanoids, basically by scaring them. For strength, I had the idea to do either giants or monstrous humanoids: you impress them with your strengths. All of those, however, are pretty weird, and for some, it doesn't really fit. What do you turn with the power of Knowledge, exactly? Yeah.
So, should I drop the idea? Do something else with it?
Actually, I would say each turns something opposed and rebukes something aligned, as water turns fire and rebukes water, etc:
So,
Air: turns earth, rebukes air
Animal: turns aberrations, rebukes animals.
Chaos: turns lawful outsiders, rebukes chaotic outsiders
Death: turns deathless, rebukes undead
Destruction: turns constructs, rebukes ????
Earth: turns air, rebukes earth
Evil: turns good outsiders, rebukes evil outsiders
Fire: turns water, rebukes fire
Good: turns evil outsiders, rebukes good outsiders
Knowledge: turns mindless creatures, rebukes creatures with INT modifier of >+5
Law: turns chaotic outsiders, rebukes lawful outsiders
Luck:
Life: turns undead, rebukes deathless
Plant: turns vermin, rebukes plants
Protection: turns invaders Once per day as a 10minute ritual, a cleric of Protection may designate an area of up to 10ft/cleric level as a "protected area" and may turn any creature that enters that area uninvited by the cleric or by anyone whom the cleric delegates invitation power to. This effect lasts as long as the cleric remains in the protected area, rebukes willingly bonded creatures (familiars, mummy guardians of a tomb)
Magic: turns creatures with spell resistance, rebukes creatures willingly under the effect of a spell or spell-like ability.
Strength: turns creatures without a strength score, rebukes creatures with a STR modifier of >+5
Sun: turns shadow creatures, rebukes light creatures
War: turns humanoids who are unwilling combatants, rebukes humanoids who are willing combatants.
Water: turns fire, rebukes water.

This would replace the turn undead/rebuke undead of usual clerics. I would say three+ Cha modifier times for each individual domain.

EDIT: added Knowledge, Luck, Magic, Protection, Strength and War

[Thieves]

Destruction: turns constructs, rebukes ______


Incorporeals? Just a blind guess.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Yeah, making it turn/rebuke works a little better and versatile. Though the idea was actually to make every cleric choose one effect from his domains.

Still, the problem with the idea remains that some domains just don't have anything really useful to turn or rebuke.

For Knowledge, perhaps you could just target a creatures intelligence instead of it's HD?
Actually, that doesn't work, intelligence doesn't scale well enough...
Knowledge ranks? That sounds, as others have said, convoluted.

Perhaps a unique channelling effect isn't bad. Though for some, like, say fire (it would probably be blasting) that would already be well represented by spells.

[Thieves]

Protection: turns invaders :spoiler:, rebukes willingly bonded creatures (familiars, mummy guardians of a tomb)

Turning's kinda complex... I guess turning anything that actively and really threatens your mates is enough for Protection. Rebuking okay.


War: turns humanoids who are unwilling combatants, rebukes humanoids who are willing combatants.

So basically you get to turn all humanoids.


Though the idea was actually to make every cleric choose one effect from his domains.

What?


Still, the problem with the idea remains that some domains just don't have anything really useful to turn or rebuke.

Some of them aren't useful at all, but you don't choose everything based on mechanical power, now, do you?


For Knowledge, perhaps you could just target a creatures intelligence instead of it's HD?
Actually, that doesn't work, intelligence doesn't scale well enough...
Knowledge ranks? That sounds, as others have said, convoluted.

Targeting a different statistic with the mechanics of turning indeed is too complex. HD works fine, I guess you do only have to decide what you can turn / rebuke.

[Eldan]

Yeah.
I didn't mean nothing "useful". Turning vermin as a plant cleric, as has been suggested, is very flavourful, but probably not all that common. I meant "meaningful", really.

Edit: actually, turning incorporeals wouldn't be too bad for the strength domain. Maybe rebuking giants along with that...

[The Anarresti]

So basically you get to turn all humanoids.

Not really. You only get to turn all humanoids who are actively in combat. If a humanoid hasn't dealt or received damage in combat they do not count as a combatant. Just generally milling around humanoids, or say the mad wizard in the middle of summoning his Fiendish Epic Salmon to take over the world with wouldn't count as combatants. However, the dwarf trying to hack off your legs in the middle of a fight would.