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teslas
2010-07-05, 06:18 AM
I did a couple brisk searches and didn't find anything with decent examples of how this would work. If there is one and I've missed it, my apologies. Give me a link and this thread can quickly die.

Otherwise, how does this work?

Paladin 15, gets +8 HD to his mount. We'll assume the base HD for the creature is 4, so 12 total. Paladin has Celestial Mount feat/sub. level, so the ECL is 14 total.

The paladin gets leadership at some point appropriate, earlier the better.

He is Level 15. Leadership Score: 15
He has 18 CHA. Leadership Score + 4
He has a special mount. Leadership Score - 2

Leadership Score: 17
Cohort Level: 12.

That's two levels below the mount's ECL, so Leadership would do nothing here, no? Worthless to do this.

Or, does Leadership tack onto the bonuses applied to the mount?

A 12 HD animal with 8 levels of fighter (12 - 4 base HD) would be ridiculous, not to mention have higher BAB than the paladin her/himself.

Aroka
2010-07-05, 10:05 AM
DMG, page 200, "Paladin Cohort Mounts." Combining the two in one creature adds +2 to ECL. Unfortunately, the DMG is not clear on how this actually works; does the mount get bonus HD, and if so, are they considered for the Leadership feat?

The answer seems obvious enough to me; if the bonus HD were considered, you'd get stupid numbers (a 4 HD, LA +0 cohort-mount for a 15th-level paladin would be ECL 14, too high for the paladin), so either the bonus HD aren't considered for Leadership, or - and this is what I'd do - aren't granted. So you could get a unicorn as an ECL 10 (p. 199) mount-cohort, and it gets all other benefits of being a paladin mount.

Edit: Page 200 seems to indicate you're not supposed to make a mount into a cohort - why would you ever do that anyway, since there's no bonuses? - but rather make a cohort into a special mount. You also avoid the -2 penalty to your Leadership score for cohorts since it's one creature.

EditEdit: Reading closer, you seem to be greatly confused about what cohorts are. Why would being a cohort add 8 levels of fighter to the mount? That's not at all how it works. Cohorts are considered by ECL, which is HD + LA. HD here includes class levels.

teslas
2010-07-05, 07:11 PM
Confused? Yes, definitely, although the comment about the fighter levels was one of the off-kelter interpretations that could be drawn from the ambiguous wording. The fact that they'd be fighter levels stems from the fact that it's a warhorse with 9 int if the Leadership juices were applied after the special mount features, more of an exercise in exaggeration.

So let me get this straight:

Your take on the matter is that you pick a cohort, which happens to be a creature that can serve as a mount (hopefully one with 4+ INT as not to violate anything). You calculate its levels (almost always simply racial HD), according to the Leadership score allowed.

After this is done, you then apply your paladin special mount attributes to the creature.

Would you grant the Cohort the full bonus HD for being a special mount, and if not, why specifically? Picking your example of an ECL 10 Unicorn isn't all that impressive compared to what a rhinoceros with a bunch of bonus HD could do.

Or would you lower this by some amount, since it already has a high ECL? And if so, how would you determine how much to lower it?


There are a lot of bad precedents for lowering the bonus HD granted by the special mount feature based on the creatures base ECL. The only thing we have to go on are tables, and trying to gauge how a creature not on a table is handled can take a good bit of discussion with your DM.

According to the DMG p204:
A 4HD, ECL 4 Heavy Warhorse is for level a 5 paladin.
A 4HD, ECL 6 Celestial Heavy Warhorse is for a level 6 paladin.
An 8HD, ECL 8 Rhinoceros is for a level 7 paladin.

So By paladin level 20 an ECL 30 creature should be doable if this growth continues; it would even get 2 more bonus HD. This, of course, is absurd.

Another example of poor "common sense:"
You can add celestial template to your mount as a feat or paladin substitution level. The celestial template is a +2 ECL adjustment. Ok, fine and dandy, but if you just want a Warhorse, why spend an entire, precious feat one something you could simply wait another level for, and indeed maxes out to be just as strong at level 16 as opposed to level 15.

The whole deal with using Leadership to enhance your mount IS a bit silly, but I'd like to see what is possible and what is acceptable if you're not looking to go the dragon cohort route.

It seems like if you're interested in having a cheesy celestial rhinoceros with 8 extra HD--awesome, that's easy. If you want a magical warhorse that can reliably survive a harsh battle with you: you're more or less out of luck.

Anyways, all of this is pretty poorly documented, so I was looking for second opinions. Thank you for yours. I think I can agree with everything you've said so far. More input would be great.

Stephen_E
2010-07-06, 01:18 AM
All indications I've ever seen, and the text from the DMG indicate that the abilities gained from been a Special Mount add a minimum of +2 to the ECL. This is for ALL of the benefits received by the Special Mount, which would include the bonus HD.

The rules also make it quite clear that Cohorts can be mounts, and indeed it's one of the more balanced ways of using the feat in reagrds to cohorts.

Also note that a Paladins Special Mount is intelligent and therefore levels gained as a Cohort could, and almost certainly would, be class levels. Fighter, Scout and Barbarian are easy choices, but with some minor fiddling Ranger could work as well. In Pathfinder even Paladin levels could be used without getting silly, so long as the Mount didn't take the Special Mount option.

How does it work:-

Calculate the ECL for the basic form of the mount.
This is easiest if you choose a mount that is already given a Cohort lev adj/ecl in the monster manual, but if you want something else you can work it out by comparing relativcly powerful creatures.

You then apply the level modifer for it also been your special mount. Somewhere from +2 to maybe +4 if there is some reason that the mount is especially powerful when the Paladins special abilities are added, beyond what any Paladins Mount is.

This sets the Mounts ECL. If it is at least 2 levels lower than the Paladins Character level, and less than or equal to the Leadership score it is acceptable.

Now add all the bonus HD and other special abilities from been a Special Mount. Remember that advance special mounts come with a penalty to the paladins level for purposes of calculating special mount abilities and bonus HD.
If your mount isn't on the alternatice mounts list (DMG pg 204) you will again have to make a guess based on comparitive power of mounts.

Then as xp is gained - see Leadership rules in DMG - and levels are gained, class levels are chosen. Continue to add any further Bonus HD and special abilities as the Paladin advances in level, but remember these never count for Character levels or ECL purposes.

Hope this helps.

Stephen E

Aroka
2010-07-06, 01:33 AM
There's no "Leadership juices" to apply, strictly. Leadership doesn't improve anything - you pick something with an ECL of up to the allowed level limit. The level refers to ECL, not class levels (ECL includes class levels, all other HD, and LA). If there aren't any 12th-level fighters availble to act as your cohorts, the available 8th-level fighter doesn't get bumped up levels or anything.

Like I said, I personally would not grant the extra HD to cohort-mounts; with a good Leadership score, they're already likely to be better than a mount (although I can't off-hand remember how good some alternative mounts may be), and getting the mount special abilities is pretty impressive.

Also, you can't really use animals at all. A rhino isn't actually ECL 8 (HD + 0). They don't have Level Adjustment +0, they have Level Adjustment —, which means they're not suitable for mounts and cohorts. Also, cohorts need to have a real Int score, which animals only get after you apply the mount stuff. (And they'll still lack a Level Adjustment, meaning they still can't be cohorts.)

Combining cohort and special mount is basically supposed to let you get more exotic mounts, like unicorns, pegasi, lammasu, etc. - a companion that you can ride, essentially, and that has some kind of connection to whatever you worship. 'course, alternative mounts may cover many of these and end up mathematically better - nothing wrong with that. Cohort + special mount isn't always necessarily advantageous.

Edit: Stephen E's method is good, too.

Stephen_E
2010-07-06, 03:17 AM
There's no "Leadership juices" to apply, strictly. Leadership doesn't improve anything - you pick something with an ECL of up to the allowed level limit. The level refers to ECL, not class levels (ECL includes class levels, all other HD, and LA).

While technically true, been a cohort does allow the cohort to gain xp, and use that xp to gain class levels. With mounts this is normally not possible.
So I'd be inclined to call the ability to get class levels "leadership juice".

I'd also note that animals have "-" on cohort adj because DnD notes animal as having no more than Int 2, and thus unable to function in a way suitable for a cohort.
Since a special mount gains an Int score of greater than 2, they defacto are capable of becoming cohorts, even if the base creature isn't.
This requires the GM/Player to workout some approximation of what it's lev adj for ECL is.

The important point regarding special mounts as cohorts is that while the option is there in the DMG to do so, the rest of the rules aren't designed to do so. Therefore you must make modifications to the "Monster rules" to make it work. Otherwise you are left with about 5 creatures you can do it with. - Unicorn, Pegasus and Griffon, Giant Eagle and Giant Owl. Been the only creatures that are both listed as alternatice Special Mounts, with Paladin lev adj, and a cohort lev adj.

Remember therules make it clear that the lists in this section are guidelines for the GM and not meant to be comprehensive.

Stephen E

teslas
2010-07-06, 03:21 PM
A rhino isn't actually ECL 8 (HD + 0). They don't have Level Adjustment +0, they have Level Adjustment —, which means they're not suitable for mounts and cohorts. Also, cohorts need to have a real Int score, which animals only get after you apply the mount stuff. (And they'll still lack a Level Adjustment, meaning they still can't be cohorts.)

ECL = Level Adjustment + Racial Hit Die + Class Levels. Right?

A Rhinoceros is specifically listed in the DMG as a suitable mount for a paladin. A rhinoceros (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rhinoceros.htm) has 8 hit die. Its ECL, with no level adjustment, is therefore 8 unless I'm completely mistaken on how hit die work.



Combining cohort and special mount is basically supposed to let you get more exotic mounts, like unicorns, pegasi, lammasu, etc. - a companion that you can ride, essentially, and that has some kind of connection to whatever you worship. 'course, alternative mounts may cover many of these and end up mathematically better - nothing wrong with that. Cohort + special mount isn't always necessarily advantageous.

I can see what you mean by this. It's a completely valid interpretation of the RAI. I would not try to convince any DM that thought this way otherwise.

However, paladins are already supposed to work with their DMs for something thematically appropriate. The DM is then supposed to decide on what kind of adjustment to make of how much of the special mount bonus HD the mount receives. Selecting the Leadership feat to specifically improve your cohort/mount, in my opinion, should further enhance this part of the class away from themetics, albeit by no over-dramatic means. Using Leadership in this way, as Stephen_E also suggested, is BY FAR one of the least optimized uses of the feat.


We're taking for granted all of the RP aspects are either taken care of or not necessary for the situation. We're going to stick with a heavy warhorse as it is the peanut butter and jelly of paladin mounts.Going along with what I think Stephen_E was saying, and what I've noticed, how does this sound:

You're a level 12 paladin with the Leadership feat. Your appropriate cohort level is 8. We'll assume, as a paladin, your charisma modifier takes care of the -2 penalty for already having a special mount. To keep it simple, your appropriate cohort level is 8.
*A Heavy Warhorse. HD 4. ECL 4.

You can add either 4 racial Hit Die, or, if your DM finds it appropriate, possibly class levels to the horse.
*It is now HD 8. ECL 8. Appropriate for a Leadership score of 12.

Next comes your paladin's special mount bonus HD, which is a minimum of +2 if it is going to be a special mount at all. The DM then decides what the proper level adjustment for any more special mount HD are.

In my opinion:
-If only magical beast racial HD are allowed, full paladin special mount HD should be granted based on the creature's base HD before leadership. 3/4 BAB and d8 hit die are not that special.
-If class levels are allowed, I'd be inclined to introduce a penalty. Full BAB progression, possible d10 or d12 hit die, and extra feats, class features, and possibly extra skill points are quite a large benefit.


Ok, everything is fairly simple then.

The problem arises as the paladin gains levels. The mount, also being a cohort, should also gain XP and levels as described in the DMG. The paladin by the late teens, may have nigh-ridiculous charisma in addition to character level, raising the max level of the cohort mount.

The paladin, as he levels, should also be giving the special mount more bonus HD.

My opinion:
Logically, keep the Leadership HD/Class levels seperate from the Special Mount bonus HD.

Approaching it in this way may be easiest:
Take the base creature
add Extra HD/Class levels from leadership as they occur
add Special Mount HD at DM discretion during advancement (minimum +2)


Your thoughts?

ericgrau
2010-07-06, 04:21 PM
Basically it lets a fighter get a special mount 2 levels lower than a paladin's mount for the cost of a feat. Not a bad deal. Especially since most of the high level mounts come with flight. As for giving it to a paladin, I dunno why he'd want a 2nd mount unless one was aquatic or flying or something.

And ya ECL = LA + Racial HD + Class HD (levels).

Aroka
2010-07-06, 04:46 PM
A Rhinoceros is specifically listed in the DMG as a suitable mount for a paladin. A rhinoceros (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rhinoceros.htm) has 8 hit die. Its ECL, with no level adjustment, is therefore 8 unless I'm completely mistaken on how hit die work.

The point is that it does not have a Level Adjustment. It's not +0, like for elves and dwarves and humans; it's a slash, indicating it can't be a cohort or a PC. It therefore has no ECL - it's not effectively a character, and therefore does not have an effective character level. You'd have to give it a Level Adjustment, and there's no way it would be +0, since it has to (along with RHD) "buy off" ability scores, natural armor, and natural attacks.

For any of this to work, you have to assess Level Adjustments for animals used.

Like I said, I probably wouldn't give the bonus HD, but it may be just fine to give them; if you do give them, yeah, it's probably better to treat them as an actual bonus - a divine or profane bonus or whatever, maybe - rather than "real HD" that are factored when calculating XP and so on. In that case, it could be logically consistent to ignore them for ECL altogether.

teslas
2010-07-06, 06:06 PM
As for giving it to a paladin, I dunno why he'd want a 2nd mount unless one was aquatic or flying or something.

It's to apply Leadership to the same mount.



The point is that it does not have a Level Adjustment. It's not +0, like for elves and dwarves and humans; it's a slash, indicating it can't be a cohort or a PC.

Ah yes. I forgot all about that. Trying to buy off 26 STR, 21 CON, and that 4d6+24 powerful charge would probably be a little costly for a cohort.

With that in mind, it's all the more ridiculous that a paladin can get that at LEVEL SEVEN. The damn thing will still get the full 12 bonus HD at paladin level 17.

Thanks again guys, Aroka and Stephen_E. Good to hear some well-formed second opinions.

Stephen_E
2010-07-07, 08:10 AM
The point is that it does not have a Level Adjustment. It's not +0, like for elves and dwarves and humans; it's a slash, indicating it can't be a cohort or a PC. It therefore has no ECL - it's not effectively a character, and therefore does not have an effective character level. You'd have to give it a Level Adjustment, and there's no way it would be +0, since it has to (along with RHD) "buy off" ability scores, natural armor, and natural attacks.

OK. I've identified a major error in your thoughts.
The slash doesn't indicate it can't be a cohort or PC.
It indicates that it wasn't deemed suitable to be a cohort or PC.
To very different statements.
For many of these creatures the answer is imply that an INT score of 2 or less makes it invalid, but since a Paladins mount automatically gets an Int score of at least 6 this reason goes away.


For any of this to work, you have to assess Level Adjustments for animals used.

And you have to be careful to take the entire bonus and penalties into account.
Massive stats are worth a lot less than it's tempting to think they are. In particular stat bonuses are worth less the higher the ECL.
Also as a general rules as mounts they lack tool use abilities. BIG penalty in that (exception - unless you allow them levels in Monk, and the ability to stack unarmed attacks with natural attacks - don't recommend allowing this).
Basically u can do a lot of fiddling but in general the lev adj would vary from -1 to +1.


Like I said, I probably wouldn't give the bonus HD, but it may be just fine to give them; if you do give them, yeah, it's probably better to treat them as an actual bonus - a divine or profane bonus or whatever, maybe - rather than "real HD" that are factored when calculating XP and so on. In that case, it could be logically consistent to ignore them for ECL altogether.

That is the way the rules in the DMG treat it. The RAW that is. I won't make any claims to knowing the RAI, but the RAW treats what the Special mount gets, which includes the bonus HD which quite specifically aren't racial HD or levels, as a ECL mod of minimum +2.



Stephen E