Fallout 3 fluff discussion

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hi there. In my current playthrough of the Fallout 3 game, I decided to play a "nerd" type: Energy Weapons, Science and Repair skills focused.

So, naturally, I try to have with me the best high-tech toys. I also play my character as "neutral", doing good deeds and bad (I killed Burke but also killed the Ghouls for Tenpenny, for example). I do my best to keep a balanced Karma. I also gave back their Androids to the Commonwealth, but before that, I "Awakened" the robot and "left it in peace" so it would give me his awesome plasma rifle.

Anyway, you have a good outlook on my character. And guess what? I recently discovered the existence of a faction I never heard of before, the Brotherhood Outcast. It's amazing how much they are similar to my character in term of both mentality and general goals/preference!

But then, after reading a little, I realised how much the so-called "Outcast" got shafted by the game designers.

First of all, WHY are they called the "Outcast"? They are the ones who stayed true to the original Brotherhood's purpose. It is the other Steelers who have decided to break away (peacefully, but still) from the main Brotherhood leadership to play Scoutboys. Can't say I despise these "Paladins", since they are doing good around, but the way I see it, they are the "Outcast" of the Brotherhood (since the Western Leadership cut off technological assistance), and the red-black Brothers are the real remnant of the "Brotherhood".

The game decided to hand us a nice little dichotomy of "Good guys" in the Brotherhood, and made a mere handwave regarding the original design of the Brotherhood (as depicted in Fallout 1 and 2) with these "Outcast", who are labelled as evil and you can't never join as a faction, no matter how high-tech and neutrally-karmaed my character is.

I don't know. I kinda feel cheated. Am I the only one who believes the way the Outcasts are depicted is a little unfair? Why are they automatically at war with the "Official" Brotherhood? Why couldn't they simply break away peacefully like the Brotherhood did from the Western Leadership?

Why couldn't the Outcasts still have the backing of the Western Leadership?

Anyone knows of any way (mods, DLC) that set this right? That makes the outcast a joinable faction?

[Oslecamo]

First of all, WHY are they called the "Outcast"?

Because the goody two shoes paladins get to keep the main fortified base, most of the equipment and the giant robot on top.



The game decided to hand us a nice little dichotomy of "Good guys" in the Brotherhood, and made a mere handwave regarding the original design of the Brotherhood (as depicted in Fallout 1 and 2) with these "Outcast",

Fallout 3 was designed by other people, and they indeed wanted more black and white in this game than multiple shades of grey and pitch black.




who are labelled as evil and you can't never join as a faction, no matter how high-tech and neutrally-karmaed my character is.

I'm not sure if they're labeled as evil. They don't attack you on sight and you don't lose karma for dealing with them.

As for having trouble joining them, that's the original brotherhood of carril steel for you. Arrogant elitists that in Fallout 1 would send you to what basically amounted as a suicide mission in order to be able to join them,



I don't know. I kinda feel cheated. Am I the only one who believes the way the Outcasts are depicted is a little unfair? Why are they automatically at war with the "Official" Brotherhood? Why couldn't they simply break away peacefully like the Brotherhood did from the Western Leadership?

The western leadership is far far away. The outcasts aren't. And they're both interested in salvaging ancient technology in the same turf. Also they aren't exactly at "shoot first, ask questions later" war as your paladin companion doesn't seem to have any problem with them.




Why couldn't the Outcasts still have the backing of the Western Leadership?

In Fallout Tactics it's showed that the brotherhood had plenty of troubles geting to the eastern coast. The western leadership simply can't afford to send some "punitive" force against the brotherhood of steel. They probably told the outcasts something along the lines of "Hang in there, we'll send reinforcemnts...Eventually."



Anyone knows of any way (mods, DLC) that set this right? That makes the outcast a joinable faction?
Hmm, you can already kinda join them. You bring them technology they pay you. That's what the brotherhood of steel original purpose was about. Elder Lyons is the one who decided to tackle the super mutant threat and the enclave at full force, so the outcasts just try to don't get caught in the middle and keep scavenging. They really can't afford to do much more in Fallout 3.

Operation anchorage also allows you to do a bigger mission for them.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Because the goody two shoes paladins get to keep the main fortified base, most of the equipment and the giant robot on top.

But the Outcasts have the highest amount of high-tech weapons and robots, no?

And the "real" Brotherhood ideals and goals are more akin to the so-called "Outcasts"


I'm not sure if they're labeled as evil. They don't attack you on sight and you don't lose karma for dealing with them.

They drop fingers when they die if you are a Lawbringer.


As for having trouble joining them, that's the original brotherhood of carril steel for you. Arrogant elitists that in Fallout 1 would send you to what basically amounted as a suicide mission in order to be able to join them,

Yup. But that once you have proven your worth, would actually accept you and train/supply you. Bringing back high-tech toys to the Outcast would go a long way toward making them my friends. Hell, if there was such option, I'd capture the Commonwealth Androids and bring them back to the Outcasts (now THAT'S a third option).

I don't see why they couldn't train me into their way, give me perks, etc...


The western leadership is far far away. The outcasts aren't. And they're both interested in salvaging ancient technology in the same turf. Also they aren't exactly at "shoot first, ask questions later" war as your paladin companion doesn't seem to have any problem with them.

They are both interested, but I still don't see why they would be shooting each other. I mean, ultimately, it could simply evolve into some sort of healthy but cautious trade relation, where the Paladin gives intel about high-tech locations that the Oucasts could claim for themselves, getting rid of Super Mutants in the process that the Paladins wouldn't afford engaging yet. In exchange, the Outcasts would send them some high-tech weaponry found. Everybody wins.

I get why they aren't part of the same gang, but I don't see why they have to pull guns and shoot at each others.


Hmm, you can already kinda join them. You bring them technology they pay you. That's what the brotherhood of steel original purpose was about. Elder Lyons is the one who decided to tackle the super mutant threat and the enclave at full force, so the outcasts just try to don't get caught in the middle and keep scavenging. They really can't afford to do much more in Fallout 3.

Operation anchorage also allows you to do a bigger mission for them.

Yhea, but ultimately, I could never really join them as one of theirs, while I can join the Paladins. It would be great if there was the choice of joining the Enclave, the Paladins or the Outcasts (if you join 1, you can't join the others, off course)

That'd be a real Good/Evil/Neutral split of factions.

Hum.. Ultimately, having Goody-two shoes Paladin in the Fallout universe doesn't bother me. I kinda like seeing powerful beings fighting "the good fight", and it's kinda heartwarming.

It's just that I think they have completely been side-lined as a faction potential. I don't mind having them as a secondary factions, just not as minor in term of possibility as currently.

[Oslecamo]

But the Outcasts have the highest amount of high-tech weapons and robots, no?

They have the highest ratio in relation to their manpower. But the goody paladins probably have more in total (just look at their main lab). The brotherhood comments it's forced to use robots as grunts in expeditions, wich hints that humans in power armor are superior to bots, but the outcasts have more tech than they have hands.



And the "real" Brotherhood ideals and goals are more akin to the so-called "Outcasts"

Yes they are but they're too short on numbers to really impose that.



They drop fingers when they die if you are a Lawbringer.

Hmm, well, that's probably because every humanoid has that or the good one, and the outcasts are a little more to the evil side not really caring about the innocents.



Yup. But that once you have proven your worth, would actually accept you and train/supply you. Bringing back high-tech toys to the Outcast would go a long way toward making them my friends.

Again, this is the higly elitist ritualist "we're higher than thou!" brotherhood. They don't see you as a valuable asset. They see you as a lowly "peasant" scoundrel that's usefull but not worthy of joining their sacred knightly organization.



Hell, if there was such option, I'd capture the Commonwealth Androids and bring them back to the Outcasts (now THAT'S a third option).

Well, that's more of a problem with all of the Fallout 3, where the choices are very limited in everything.



I don't see why they couldn't train me into their way, give me perks, etc...

Again, higly elitist. And the main story forces you to join the goody two shoes paladins.



They are both interested, but I still don't see why they would be shooting each other. I mean, ultimately, it could simply evolve into some sort of healthy but cautious trade relation, where the Paladin gives intel about high-tech locations that the Oucasts could claim for themselves, getting rid of Super Mutants in the process that the Paladins wouldn't afford engaging yet. In exchange, the Outcasts would send them some high-tech weaponry found. Everybody wins.

Yes, and the people of the wasteland could stop hating ghouls in general and the raiders could abandon their barbaric ways and the enclave would then actualy act as the government and provide help and tech for everybody in order to work togheter with the people of the diferent villages to rebuild this pos apocalyptic world, destroyng the monster nests and building safe roads and stuff.

But then when you got out of your vault there would be a massive peacefull land whitout any monsters left to kill.:smalltongue:



I get why they aren't part of the same gang, but I don't see why they have to pull guns and shoot at each others.

Well, I don't recall ever seeing outcasts and goody paladins shooting at each other.



It's just that I think they have completely been side-lined as a faction potential. I don't mind having them as a secondary factions, just not as minor in term of possibility as currently.

Fallout 1 allowed you to join the mutants but then the game ended right there. Fallout 2 didn't allow you to join the enclave at all. And the goody brotherhood of steel is directly tied to the main quest while being exclusive of the outcasts and enclave.

So this is a problem with Fallout 3 in overall and it's lack of true choices. Becoming a full member of the outcasts/enclave would mean you break the main story line (as the goody paladins don't acept you anymore), so it's a no-no unless the designers were willing to make multiple "main" quests.

[JadedDM]

So to answer your questions in the simplest terms, it's because Bethesda doesn't have many good writers. The Tenpenny quest (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=2010) you mentioned earlier is a prime example of that.

[Triaxx]

One of the odd things about the Outcasts. It seems they don't have a strong leader to keep them all as one faction so you have the main Outcasts, and the Anchorage Outcasts.

[Avilan the Grey]

One of the odd things about the Outcasts. It seems they don't have a strong leader to keep them all as one faction so you have the main Outcasts, and the Anchorage Outcasts.

Their leader is in Fort Independence. He seems strong enough to me. I am not really sure what you are getting at, though.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Really the Enclave murders your father, tries to kill you, and steals the life's work of your parents to claim for themselves. They eliminate wastelanders who don't meet the criteria for being pure enough. [which would include you by the way].

Why would you want to join them from a character perspective. It be completely unrealistic and the only realistic ending would be they shoot you in the end, hows that for a game ending. Join the bad guys and they kill you once your no longer useful.

The conflict between the outcasts and the brotherhood shows Bethesda new about the original brotherhood as the outcasts more closely follow that path.
The schism is fairly well explained in the game material.

One conclusion I have come to, is due to the vault experimenst, due to Enclaves extensive preparation of bases and resources. I believe the Enclave initiated the Great War to further their own ends. Wipe everyone out an "America" in the form of the Enclave emerges and rebuilds the world in their image.

[VanBuren]

For the record, the Lyons is still recognized as the the rightful leader of the Captial Wasteland division even after his objective shift (they just stopped supplies) so the Outcasts would still likely be seen as deserters by the Lost Hills bunker.

[Avilan the Grey]

Really the Enclave murders your father, tries to kill you, and steals the life's work of your parents to claim for themselves. They eliminate wastelanders who don't meet the criteria for being pure enough. [which would include you by the way].

Why would you want to join them from a character perspective. It be completely unrealistic and the only realistic ending would be they shoot you in the end, hows that for a game ending. Join the bad guys and they kill you once your no longer useful.

The conflict between the outcasts and the brotherhood shows Bethesda new about the original brotherhood as the outcasts more closely follow that path.
The schism is fairly well explained in the game material.

One conclusion I have come to, is due to the vault experimenst, due to Enclaves extensive preparation of bases and resources. I believe the Enclave initiated the Great War to further their own ends. Wipe everyone out an "America" in the form of the Enclave emerges and rebuilds the world in their image.

Last point first: They might have, but it came faster than they expected. Up until the war broke out, they were on top of everything, but the war came too soon for their Generation Spaceship to be finished, and they had to flee out to the Oil Rig (FO2).

As for "shot in the head": I think that would be a great consequence / ending in several games if you join the dark side. You are free to play an evil bastard, and betray and use everyone, and it is a logical conclusion that others do that to you, too.

[Cobalt]

Also they aren't exactly at "shoot first, ask questions later" war as your paladin companion doesn't seem to have any problem with them.

Pffh. The Brotherhood might not be, but I sure am. Saying "Shouldn't you be smashing rocks together?" to a power-amoured giant wielding a gattling laser doesn't bode well for their faces.

When I'm in that armour, how can they tell I'm a local anyway? I always found it hilarious that you can just walk around in the weirdist getups and no one gives you a second guess.

Like if I walk into a bar, pickpocket some guy, and walk out. How's the conversation go? "Hey Jim, did you see that guy in the pre-war power armour just walk in here and steal the 50 caps from Jack's back pocket?" "Yeah, that happens."

[Eldan]

"Why didn't you say anything?"
"Because he was seven feet tall, had good-as-new power armour and was accompanied by a super mutant wielding a gatling. Best pretend not to notice."

See? Bethesda games are much deeper than you think!

[Irbis]

Last point first: They might have, but it came faster than they expected. Up until the war broke out, they were on top of everything, but the war came too soon for their Generation Spaceship to be finished, and they had to flee out to the Oil Rig (FO2).

Didn't they had that orbital city-station, though? :smallconfused:


As for "shot in the head": I think that would be a great consequence / ending in several games if you join the dark side. You are free to play an evil bastard, and betray and use everyone, and it is a logical conclusion that others do that to you, too.

Meh, after I witnessed the sorry state of the world in F2 and listened to that little speech of President (that humanity in unmutated form, without all radiation problems might be better suited to taking over the world than sad remnants on the continent) in the end I wanted to let the Enclave win.

Of course, I was ~16 at the time, I'm a human, not a mutant, and I found most of the setting repulsive.

By the way, one of our gaming newspapers stated you could stage President's suicide. Is that true?

[Triaxx]

I'm getting at that they seem to have multiple factions who aren't exactly talking, or at that exactly stable.

[The Rose Dragon]

DBy the way, one of our gaming newspapers stated you could stage President's suicide. Is that true?

You can use somewhere around 50 super stimpacks on him, which will kill him after an hour.

You can also feed him your toe if you're feeling particularly spiteful.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You can use somewhere around 50 super stimpacks on him, which will kill him after an hour.



Actually, I think 2 SS kill him.


I'm getting at that they seem to have multiple factions who aren't exactly talking, or at that exactly stable.

No ****. :smallamused:

Have you taken a look at the setting? It is strongly implied that the leaders of the USA were already turning recluse and mad from power as the War with China worsened. They became paranoid and set the most incredible social, military and technological projects they could. Just think of the Vault program itselt.

The Enclave is still a pretty mad institution. Although I'd be happy to learn more about them. Like.. where do they recruit? Where is their population center from which they draw their soldiers? Where is their manufacturing center? Do they have any other command structure than the military's? If so, who's in charge?

For that matter, who put Eden in charge?

[The Rose Dragon]

For that matter, who put Eden in charge?

The Constitution of the United States.

At least, that's his claim and he's sticking to it.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The Constitution of the United States.

At least, that's his claim and he's sticking to it.

Except the Constitution doesn't put anyone in charge. It simply gives the procedure to appoint the next leader. You still need a Judge/etc.. to anoint a President.

How did he ended up being President?

To add a further addendum, I really doubt that the Constitution allows a robotic president.

[The Rose Dragon]

Well, are you going to argue with an insane AI who controls the entire defensive functions of your base?

I'm more worried about why the Western Enclave would agree to the rule of a computer who cannot even do anything to affect them, or presumably anything outside the Capital Wasteland.

Does the Western Enclave even know about the Eastern Enclave, or does the United States have two Presidents now?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well, are you going to argue with an insane AI who controls the entire defensive functions of your base?

I'm more worried about why the Western Enclave would agree to the rule of a computer who cannot even do anything to affect them, or presumably anything outside the Capital Wasteland.

Does the Western Enclave even know about the Eastern Enclave, or does the United States have two Presidents now?

Even outside of the base, what is the authority of Eden?

Seriously, what prevent the Enclave troopers to simply pack, kill Megaton's resident, and set up shop there? Why do they still hang around and do Eden's bidding?

I agree that you don't contradict the homicidal robotic president in his lair, but there is a limit Constitutional Loyalty reaches, methink.

[Avilan the Grey]

Didn't they had that orbital city-station, though? :smallconfused:

In any way, they never made it there because the Chinese struck faster, and harder, than they thought they would.

[The Rose Dragon]

Even outside of the base, what is the authority of Eden?

He control all the robots of the Enclave in the Capital Wasteland. So that's gotta count for something.

[SolkaTruesilver]

So...

You are effectively telling me that Eden is a mix of Big Brother and the Matrix's machines?

*sigh*

I haven't met the Enclave yet in my game (just finished operation Anchorage in a rush, to get the perks). What's their general standing regarding the wasterlanders, the population, and their own president?

Oh. And did the designers HAD to make the Outcasts kill each other in a bloody fashion at the end of Anchorage? Seriously. They really went a long way toward making the Outcast as "villainy" as possible. What happened to the Brotherhood's discipline and rigor?

Ever at their worst jerkiness, never the Brotherhood had backed away from a deal before in the previous games. Why suddenly they needed "Bad Brotherhood", and made them do something completely out of character?

Oh well. At least that's gonna give me 6 free power armor for trade and maintenance.

[ZeroNumerous]

I haven't met the Enclave yet in my game (just finished operation Anchorage in a rush, to get the perks). What's their general standing regarding the wasterlanders, the population, and their own president?

Their general standing with wastelanders is shoot on sight then shoot some more just in case.


What happened to the Brotherhood's discipline and rigor?

The Outcasts betrayed their rightful leader, and when you've done it once...

Don't forget, however, that the Brotherhood as a whole are Knights.

Not simply titles like Paladin or Knight or anything like that, but the entire basis of their organization is Chivalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry). The Brotherhood always puts other members of the Brotherhood over any wastelander, and always obey their leaders even if it's an obviously suicidal command. The Outcasts chose to disregard that and picked their mission over their brothers and their leader. They chose to abandon Elder Lyons and other members of the Brotherhood. Even if they still follow their mission, they've effectively abandoned the Brotherhood itself.

Given the choice between the two organizations, the Western Brotherhood would welcome Lyons back into the fold long before they accept men who betrayed their brothers-in-arms.


As for "shot in the head": I think that would be a great consequence / ending in several games if you join the dark side. You are free to play an evil bastard, and betray and use everyone, and it is a logical conclusion that others do that to you, too.

Spoiler:
In FO3: If you have Broken Steel and put the modified FEV virus that President Eden gives you in Raven Rock into the purifier, then all the purified water will kill mutated wastelanders. Naturally, it wouldn't affect a pure-strain human like a Vault Dweller...

...Except the protagonist was actually born outside of the Vault, and brought in later. If you drink Aqua Pura three times it kills you.

[The Rose Dragon]

I haven't met the Enclave yet in my game (just finished operation Anchorage in a rush, to get the perks). What's their general standing regarding the wasterlanders, the population, and their own president?

The human leader of the Capital Wasteland Enclave thinks Eden is nuts (he's already smarter than the average Wastelander), and doesn't want his plan of poisoning the mutant population of the Wasteland (read: everyone alive in the region) to succeed.

He also hates everyone outside the Enclave.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The human leader of the Capital Wasteland Enclave thinks Eden is nuts (he's already smarter than the average Wastelander), and doesn't want his plan of poisoning the mutant population of the Wasteland (read: everyone alive in the region) to succeed.

He also hates everyone outside the Enclave.

Good. Any reason why he hates them all?

I mean, ultimately, I understand the Outcast's outlook on the Lone Wanderer. Ultimately, I'm just a talented scavenger who happens to be talented with high-tech toys. (So are they). The only difference between them and I is "the Cause" they serve, which is supposed to be greater than themselves, while I hunt for myself.

Now, why do the Enclave hate non-Enclavers? Are we playing on the same turf? Why try to convert us to believe the Enclave if they just kill us on sight?

[Oslecamo]

You are effectively telling me that Eden is a mix of Big Brother and the Matrix's machines?

Just Big Brother. He's always watching you.

But The Rose Dragon got something wrong. Eden doesn't control the Enclave's high tech outside their base, but everybody but one person on the Enclave knows that he's a robot.

Eden offered a fully working base/factory/lab to keep the Enclave well supplied. And for most parts their agendas meet with each other. Sure the Enclave could go and set up shop in Megatown, but that would mean giving up on most of their tech.



I haven't met the Enclave yet in my game (just finished operation Anchorage in a rush, to get the perks). What's their general standing regarding the wasterlanders, the population, and their own president?

Again, most of the Enclave thinks they're following an humie. Eden is quite charismatic. Wastelanders are to be rounded up and killed using the minimum of resources

(no, seriously, later in the game they stablish several outposts across the wasteland to basically round up people in boxes and then kill them acording to their records)

Of course, the above agenda wasn't popular with the Enclave's second in command, and that why he and Eden end up turning against each other.

The Enclave itself is suposedly composed of "pure" people who've been born in shelters/vaults and were never exposed to the wasteland contamination.



Oh. And did the designers HAD to make the Outcasts kill each other in a bloody fashion at the end of Anchorage? Seriously. They really went a long way toward making the Outcast as "villainy" as possible. What happened to the Brotherhood's discipline and rigor?


I think that's more of a bug. They were suposed to be all happy and dandy for geting the loot but for some reason they turn agressive and the slaughter beggins.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The Outcasts betrayed their rightful leader, and when you've done it once...

Don't forget, however, that the Brotherhood as a whole are Knights.

Not simply titles like Paladin or Knight or anything like that, but the entire basis of their organization is Chivalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry). The Brotherhood always puts other members of the Brotherhood over any wastelander, and always obey their leaders even if it's an obviously suicidal command. The Outcasts chose to disregard that and picked their mission over their brothers and their leader. They chose to abandon Elder Lyons and other members of the Brotherhood. Even if they still follow their mission, they've effectively abandoned the Brotherhood itself.

Given the choice between the two organizations, the Western Brotherhood would welcome Lyons back into the fold long before they accept men who betrayed their brothers-in-arms.


Do we know the extent of the Outcast's so-called "betrayal"?

I mean, the Western Leadership have accepted the Eastern's branch breakaway from the original Brotherhood Quest, because they had no other choice. They couldn't say "okay, but first give us back all your equipment". They decided to play it safe, and say "okay, tell us when you are done" but they stopped supplying technologies, which mean they weren't actively supporting the Eastern Branch's actions.

Ultimately, it was some sort of betrayal from the Eastern Branch. They simply declared themselves protector of the Wastes as a fait accompli, and they appropriated all the fancy toys the Brotherhood pained to recover and rebuild.

Now, I'd be curious as to how the Outcast became Outcast. Was there a show of violence? Was it "Screw you, we are going our way"? Was there proactive shown of sabotage and violence against the Eastern Branch to appropriate some of the best technologies and archives while leaving?

If there hasn't been any show of violence, well, I don't see how the Outcast's breakaway from the Eastern Branch is any more a betrayal than the Eastern Branch's breakaway from the Western Leadership.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think that's more of a bug. They were suposed to be all happy and dandy for geting the loot but for some reason they turn agressive and the slaughter beggins.

I thought so too. They all suddenly turn hostile (except their leader and their Scribe). But on my 3rd reload, I heard them talking, and arguing (yhea, I was VERY BUSY looting at that point, which is why I didn't hear them talk the first times).

Turns out the argument was about their Sarge not happy that they give technologies to a Wasterlander, but their leader was defending the position that "a deal is a deal". Eventually, the soldiers and their Sarge took matter into their own hand and started shooting to keep the toys to themselves.

Which is an incredible break of character, IMHO.

[Volthawk]

Good. Any reason why he hates them all?

I mean, ultimately, I understand the Outcast's outlook on the Lone Wanderer. Ultimately, I'm just a talented scavenger who happens to be talented with high-tech toys. (So are they). The only difference between them and I is "the Cause" they serve, which is supposed to be greater than themselves, while I hunt for myself.

Now, why do the Enclave hate non-Enclavers? Are we playing on the same turf? Why try to convert us to believe the Enclave if they just kill us on sight?

From the wiki: (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Enclave)


The Enclave takes pride in being one of the last bastions of pure strain humanity left, aside from the unopened Vaults. Because of the effects of radiation and the Forced Evolutionary Virus on the people of the Wasteland, members of the Enclave generally do not consider them to be human any more, even if they look no less human than they do. They, as well as other mutated creatures, like Super mutants and ghouls, are considered to be sub-humans that are at best to be used as slaves, and at worst eradicated so that "true humanity" could take their place as the real nation of America.


So yeah, pretty much a superiority thing.

[ZeroNumerous]

If there hasn't been any show of violence, well, I don't see how the Outcast's breakaway from the Eastern Branch is any more a betrayal than the Eastern Branch's breakaway from the Western Leadership.

The Outcasts abandoned the battlefield to do what they wanted. They're ignoring the conflict with the Enclave, ignoring the fact that other Brotherhood members are fighting super mutants and ignoring Lyons' orders.

By comparison, the eastern Brotherhood made keeping other wastelanders alive a higher priority than salvaging tech. Which, need I remind you, they are still salvaging tech as proved by their rebuilding of Liberty Prime.

The eastern Brotherhood are ignored by the west because Lyons chose to support the wastelanders on top of performing his mission. The Outcasts have done, comparatively, much worse as they could be charged with desertion if the leadership of the eastern Brotherhood was really intent on bringing the Outcasts to justice.

[sihnfahl]

Good. Any reason why he hates them all?
It's never quite openly stated, but keep in mind:

1) The Enclave is the remnants of what were the Important People in the US Gov't before the Great Nuke Drop. Since they already had a Superiority Complex before the war, just think how it developed and concentrated when they were isolated during the Nuke Cool Down.

2) The Enclave are like the Vault Citizens who were lucky enough to be in the Control Group, but better. They went along with their lives as usual, but presumably with better education and resources (leading to things like Tesla Armor and Plasma Rifles for their grunts, as opposed to the worn-out Power Armor and machine guns of the Brotherhood).

3) Most of the Wastelanders have been scraping by. They scavenge. They're suffering from constant radiation exposure. They're constantly fighting one another for what scraps of livable land they can find. They have, essentially, a subsistence-level existence, while the Enclave has rad-free water, clean food, and ample resources. It's the Elitism of the Haves vs the Have Nots.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The Outcasts abandoned the battlefield to do what they wanted. They're ignoring the conflict with the Enclave, ignoring the fact that other Brotherhood members are fighting super mutants and ignoring Lyons' orders.

The Eastern Branch abandonned their mission to do what they wanted. They ignored their orders from their leaders to start fighting their own wars at the risk of everything their Brotherhood ever stood for. If they fail, the Enclave's retaliation won't stop directly at the Eastern Branch.


By comparison, the eastern Brotherhood made keeping other wastelanders alive a higher priority than salvaging tech. Which, need I remind you, they are still salvaging tech as proved by their rebuilding of Liberty Prime.

Again, I don't see it as a bad goal in itself. It is quite laudable, and I am sure the Western Leadership see it as one of the reason why they aren't "that" angry at them (that, and the fact that they have no other choice anyway). But...


The eastern Brotherhood are ignored by the west because Lyons chose to support the wastelanders on top of performing his mission. The Outcasts have done, comparatively, much worse as they could be charged with desertion if the leadership of the eastern Brotherhood was really intent on bringing the Outcasts to justice.

The Outcast's only crime is to follow the original mission set out by the Western Leadership. The Outcast act the way the Brotherhood is all about in the first place!

Now, if you take the Outcast's "betrayal" of the Eastern Branch as a real betrayal, and I don't see why the Eastern Branch's "betrayal" wasn't a real betrayal as well.

I don't care for the reason: they disobeyed orders and they commandeered Brotherhood technology and property for their own end.

And you tell me that the Western Leadership would refuse those who supported their original mission but accept those who broke away to violate their Prime Directive?

It remembers me of an instance in Foundation. The Viceroy of a planet rebelled against the Emperor. An army was sent to put him down, and when the army got close, the Viceroy's citizen rebelled against him and overthrew him.

The General of the Fleet was disapointed that he'd have no plunder, so he charged the citizen of treason to their Viceroy, and still attacked the civilians.

It's a reasoning that makes no sense.

[Oslecamo]

The Eastern Branch abandonned their mission to do what they wanted. They ignored their orders from their leaders to start fighting their own wars at the risk of everything their Brotherhood ever stood for. If they fail, the Enclave's retaliation won't stop directly at the Eastern Branch.

Actualy, between the end of the main quest and Broken Steel DLC:

The enclave is pretty much wiped out. Eden can be made to self destruct along their main base. You then go and blow up their outposts one by one and kill the second in command. Finally their last mobile base and final weapon will fall at your hands. The Enclave was already in bad shape after losing the Oil Rig. By the end of Broken Steel, they have nothing left to fight back or leaders to lead them. Elder Lyons won't fail. He'll suceeded above all expectations.

And with big carnage of the Enclave comes big fat tecnological loot.




I don't care for the reason: they disobeyed orders and they commandeered Brotherhood technology and property for their own end.

And you tell me that the Western Leadership would refuse those who supported their original mission but accept those who broke away to violate their Prime Directive?


It's very simple actualy. The goody paladins have the biggest guns. Just finish the main quest. After you behold the power of a fully operational Liberty Prime, you'll know why the western leadership would rather be in good terms with the goody paladins than the outcasts.

[sihnfahl]

The goody paladins have the biggest guns.
And with what happens, access to some really GOOD techlewts.

To compare with another game system, it's like putting Inner Sphere tech next to Clan Tech.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Actualy, between the end of the main quest and Broken Steel DLC:

The enclave is pretty much wiped out. Eden can be made to self destruct along their main base. You then go and blow up their outposts one by one and kill the second in command. Finally their last mobile base and final weapon will fall at your hands. The Enclave was already in bad shape after losing the Oil Rig. By the end of Broken Steel, they have nothing left to fight back or leaders to lead them. Elder Lyons won't fail. He'll suceeded above all expectations.

And with big carnage of the Enclave comes big fat tecnological loot.



But they didn't knew that when it happened. Ultimately, it was still a risky move at the time. You cannot look AFTER the facts and make a jugement call then.


It's very simple actualy. The goody paladins have the biggest guns. Just finish the main quest. After you behold the power of a fully operational Liberty Prime, you'll know why the western leadership would rather be in good terms with the goody paladins than the outcasts.

Off course, which is why they aren't antagonising them. And ultimately, if you can settle and make peace with your traitor, I don't see how you can't settle and make peace with your traitor's traitors.

But I don't see why the Western Leadership wouldn't also accept back the Outcasts. The Outcast weren't traitors, they simply wanted to stick with the Wester Leadership's original goal and aims. They haven't done anything wrong.

[Zorg]

There's nothing to say the Western Leadership won't accept the Outcasts back, but they would be reprimanded for disobeying their superiors - even if those same superiors are also reprimanded for disregarding their orders.
Lyons seemed mostly annoyed with the Outcasts for not helping kill off the Mutants and Enclave as that was the first priority to him - once that was done the citizens would be much more helpful and receptive to Brotherhood leadership.
The Outcasts are always somewhat hostile to you for being a Wastelander, and are only interested in you for what you can provide them. If the western BoS kept to the base mission the Enclave would have risen up and stomped them flat, but Lyons took the fight to them and won. Sure, he didn't know that he'd win, but he knew if he didn't fight head on he would lose anyway.
In the reverse sense in FO2 the Brotherhood go into hiding to avoid the Enclave because they don't know who they are yet and what their full capabilities are.

It doesn't make anything but pure logical sense (you both disobeyed your superiors, so are both punished), but the Brotherhood in FO1/2/Tactics are a bunch of greedy douchebags overall.

FO1 - They send you on a suicide mission to get rid of you, then are fairly ambivilent towards you and your findings at first.
They don't use their superior technology to help anyone, hoarding it to keep it from the wastelanders who might break it.

Fo2 - They only help you if you help them by getting the Vertibird plans for them.
Again, not helping the wasteland, though it is implied that it is because they're laying low to suss out the Enclave with the seeming canonical ending to FO1 being that they become nice and helpful to everyone.

Tactics - Most wastelanders are apathetic or resentful to the Brotherhood - they take their best youths for their armies, take food and supplies, but only provide the bare minimum of protection from raiders and scavengers.

If I were a wastelander I'd be much happier for them to break with their mission.


Eden was 'elected' after Richards was killed on the Oil Rig. Due to the constant war footing the normal electoral process was suspended and the President was elected by senators (it's in FO2), my memory's a bit hazy on the details so I may have got it a bit wrong, but basically there's no real popular election.
Everyone aboard the Oil Rig was killed, and 'Eden' appointed himself the next President, using Autumn to be his 'face'. He admits in one of his broadcasts that he wasn't properly elected, and once 'normality' is restored he will hold proper elections. Talking to him gives more info on the situation and how he came to power.

[Oslecamo]

But they didn't knew that when it happened. Ultimately, it was still a risky move at the time. You cannot look AFTER the facts and make a jugement call then.

It's not like they hadn't got much choice. Remember, the enclave hates the brotherhood and had tried to destroy them before. Heck, tecnically the brotherhood are composed of traitor soldiers who broke up from the government wich would form the Enclave.

This was a golden oportunity to give them a killing blow instead of risking the Enclave managing to rebuild itself. Risky, sure, but there were golden rewards to be reaped should they suceed.



Off course, which is why they aren't antagonising them. And ultimately, if you can settle and make peace with your traitor, I don't see how you can't settle and make peace with your traitor's traitors.

But I don't see why the Western Leadership wouldn't also accept back the Outcasts. The Outcast weren't traitors, they simply wanted to stick with the Wester Leadership's original goal and aims. They haven't done anything wrong.

You forgot one of the brotherhood's goals. Strenght. The outcast are weak. They're short in manpower and reduced to scavenging for whatever they can find and stationed in a second grade base in the middle of nowhere. They find a virtual reality program aimed at testing rookies and they need to call an outsider to do it for them. They've fallen deep indeed even if they still retain their desire for high tech.

[Calemyr]

The big difference between the Outcasts' defection and Lyons' is that Lyons differed with someone with no presence in the field of operation, i.e. the DC ruins. High command is remote, communication with them is difficult, and they have no real influence on the area. In the end, however, the Brotherhood allowed Lyons to have his way, but refused to send any reinforcements. So Lyons has been recruiting locals to bolster the ranks. Sarah Lyons isn't too pleased with the quality the minimal training has instilled in the new recruits, and so isn't willing to recruit you as an official member, but she and her father will both go to great lengths to help you regardless, so there really isn't much downside to not being one.

The Outcasts, on the other hand, rebelled against a local authority in order to pursue the agenda of an organization which, albeit reluctantly, has given Lyons permission to pursue his course. Unlike Lyons's brotherhood, the Outcasts refuse to recruit locals, so they are forced to use robots to bolster their numbers. They'll work with the Lone Wanderer, in some sense at least, but only when they have no choice and only so far and only after several insults and disparaging remarks have been tossed around.

Frankly, the Outcasts are as far away from the BoS ideal as Lyons' group is, just on the other side of the spectrum. West Coast Brothers saw a difference between "wastelanders" and "tribals" - they didn't treat every non-Brother as a parasite-ridden moron who thought using a flint on a sharp stick was the peak of technology.

[Cobalt]

The Enclave is still a pretty mad institution. Although I'd be happy to learn more about them. Like.. where do they recruit? Where is their population center from which they draw their soldiers? Where is their manufacturing center? Do they have any other command structure than the military's? If so, who's in charge?

For that matter, who put Eden in charge?

They probably just mate with whatever 'pure-strain' females they have working with them in Raven Rock (and force the spawn into being an Enclaver). I mean, yeah, this would eventually devolve into inbreeding, but hey, you take what you can get. And besides; they're only antimutants. I'm sure they couldn't give less of a toss about the genetics involved in mating if it keeps the population pure of a third arm.


Also, since only Col. Autumn knows that Eden's a computer (up until you come around), the average Enclave grunt soldier just saw him as a charismatic new leader to lead the Enclave to victory. Of course they're never going to see him in person. The last President was killed; the new one is just taking the necessary safety precautions.

[Zorg]

If both FO2/3 you can meet a couple of people who were wastelanders recruited by the Enclave for grunt work.

[Cobalt]

In Fallout 3, too? :smallconfused: Really? Where? As a random event, or is it a scripted thing for a quest?

[mangosta71]

As Calemyr said, the DC branch of the BoS received permission and approval (of a sort) to alter their mission. In other words, their original orders have been countermanded and the Outcasts are now in violation of their orders even though they're still attempting to complete their original mission.

As for breeding in the Enclave, the original population is large enough that inbreeding depression shouldn't affect them. And even if it does, in the long run (speaking in evolutionary terms) the population will eventually become just as genetically diverse as the population of the planet is currently - after all, that's how we got to be as diverse as we are today.

[Zorg]

In Broken Steel in the crawler there's a robot mechanic you can talk to.

[GolemsVoice]

One thing that also has to be considered in the Fallout universe, especially in FO 3, is that most of the pople you meet act out their own, personal madness, which is probably not intentional, but deeply disturbing.

Think about it: the Raiders are insane, no two ways about it.
You've got religious zealots like the Children of the Cathedral, or the Church of the Atom.

You've got knights in power armor, on a power trip. Although the BoS is quite normal compared to some others on the list, they still walk around with a sense of entitlement that is almost as big as the guns they carry. The average Wastelander is a slave at worst, and a child unable to protect himself at best, to most of them.

You've got a whole bunch of people who live their live in hedonism, relishing the fact that they need not concern themselves with the general suffering.

You've got people trying to fight for the memory of Lincoln, and I bet their knowledge of the past is small at best.

You've got the Enclave, and the "real" government of the USA. They believe that mass genocide could restore something of good, old fashioned American values to the wasteland.

So, in the end, the general level of sanity is much lower than today, soi it's much less a question if, but how mad you are, and what course your madness takes.

[The Rose Dragon]

You also have the woman in Arefu, who thinks she's living in a pre-war suburb. Despite being born after the war had ended long ago. She's really disturbing if you can note that distinction.

[GolemsVoice]

And the "Vampires". And the "superheroes". The great Ananias. Probably every Jet addict. Miron. Dr. Braun, who, amusingly (or disturbingly) hails from a region barely an hour's drive from where I live. Maybe even your village shaman in FO2. I just didn't bother to name them all, it wouldn't end.-

[The Rose Dragon]

Yes, but most of them have something they can base their psychoses on. That woman has no knowledge of what a pre-war suburb would be like. That's the most disturbing part.

[GolemsVoice]

Man... now that you mention it... damn!

[The Rose Dragon]

It's hard to notice that if you get there before Tranquility Lane. If you get there afterwards, it's easier to recall how jarring it was and make the connection to the woman.

[GolemsVoice]

The thought that there are Ghouls alive that still remember how life was before the bombs fell is also chilling. Some can probably even trace the shadows on the wall where their family was burned into the concrete.

[sihnfahl]

The thought that there are Ghouls alive that still remember how life was before the bombs fell is also chilling. Some can probably even trace the shadows on the wall where their family was burned into the concrete.
And that some consider the folks who died the -lucky- ones.

[The Rose Dragon]

You know, for a parody / pastiche of the post-apocalypse genre, Fallout universe can be surprisingly deep and disturbing. Even with Bethesda calling the shots.

[Cristo Meyers]

Hell, madness would probably be preferable to the day-to-day lives of some of these people.


...Dr. Braun, who, amusingly (or disturbingly) hails from a region barely an hour's drive from where I live...

Imagine what the people that actually live in the DC area think. They actually did just overlay a regional map, the locations (Bethesda, etc) are all approximately correct, just condensed for space (walking from the Lincoln Memorial to the Washington Memorial takes a lot longer than the 5 minutes in game).

Pretty sure there's a burned out neighborhood where my in-law's house is...

[SolkaTruesilver]

Ultimately, I dislike the fact that the game is set 200 years after the Bombs. If it had been 60 years, then everything (the economy, the kind of housing people are using) would make more sense.

It pisses me off that villages in Fallout had better architecture and maintenance than the Tenpenny Tower!!!

[Cobalt]

Speaking of the Tower, how did those living there get to where they are? The excuse for them living the high-life is that they're rich. Well... How? The only real way that someone gets rich in Fallout 3 is by robbing, killing, and stealing in such massive amounts that your very step in a new location spirals it into poverty. Dashwood aside, the residents of Tenpenny aren't exactly warriors capable of such things. What are they doing different that earns them such massive piles of caps? Did they stumble upon a Nuka-Cola factory in their youth and clean the place out? Did they invest in the right group of mercenaries and got their payoff one day? I've always wondered- what are they doing, that I'm not? 'Cause I want in.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Speaking of the Tower, how did those living there get to where they are? The excuse for them living the high-life is that they're rich. Well... How? The only real way that someone gets rich in Fallout 3 is by robbing, killing, and stealing in such massive amounts that your very step in a new location spirals it into poverty. Dashwood aside, the residents of Tenpenny aren't exactly warriors capable of such things. What are they doing different that earns them such massive piles of caps? Did they stumble upon a Nuka-Cola factory in their youth and clean the place out? Did they invest in the right group of mercenaries and got their payoff one day? I've always wondered- what are they doing, that I'm not? 'Cause I want in.

I always figured they were the spoiled children of those who had succeeded, raised like wasteland royalty amidst roving bands of whatever. Tenpenny tower appealed to their inflated senses of self, so they packed up daddies Mercenary band, took the money and went in.

[Name_Here]

But they didn't knew that when it happened. Ultimately, it was still a risky move at the time. You cannot look AFTER the facts and make a jugement call then.

I think that the western BOS would have approved of the fight against the Enclave. After all they have had to deal with the Enclave in the past so they know that they aren't on the list of people the Enclave will recruit.


Off course, which is why they aren't antagonising them. And ultimately, if you can settle and make peace with your traitor, I don't see how you can't settle and make peace with your traitor's traitors.

Lyons actually seemed to be more than willing to accept the outcasts back into the fold. In all the conversations you can have with him he always seems to dislike that he couldn't convince the outcasts to stay and that he didn't have any hard feelings.


But I don't see why the Western Leadership wouldn't also accept back the Outcasts. The Outcast weren't traitors, they simply wanted to stick with the Wester Leadership's original goal and aims. They haven't done anything wrong.

I've always figured that they would if the Outcasts were at all able to communicate with the elders back on the west coast. But as it stands Lyons is the only one with a communications array that can contact the old guard and even then it's a patchy communications.

Overall I like to think of the Outcasts and BOS as brothers who are dissapointed with each other and not on the best of terms but who do want to patch things up. The fact that I never saw roaming bands of BOS and Outcasts fighting probably helped.

[sihnfahl]

It pisses me off that villages in Fallout had better architecture and maintenance than the Tenpenny Tower!!!
I think the justification for that (at least for Bethesda) is location. If I remember, the original Fallout was set in Southern California.

Fallout 3 is DeeCee, so, presumably it and the surrounding area got carpet-nuked, presumably far worse than any other location in the old US. With the collapse of travel and communications, recovery differed from location to location based off available resources and how badly the area got hit. Little in the way of trees, but lots of scrap metal, badly melted and twisted.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think the justification for that (at least for Bethesda) is location. If I remember, the original Fallout was set in Southern California.

Fallout 3 is DeeCee, so, presumably it and the surrounding area got carpet-nuked, presumably far worse than any other location in the old US. With the collapse of travel and communications, recovery differed from location to location based off available resources and how badly the area got hit. Little in the way of trees, but lots of scrap metal, badly melted and twisted.

Hum... Do you think the extra radioactivity of the area, specially of the water sources, explains why there isn't any agriculture in the area, and why the region is still locked into salvage mode?

If u have less people, less salvage. Less settlements, less civilisation.

Would make some sense... Oh my [BRAIN EXPLODES]

the main plot MAKE SENSE WITH THE WORLD?

[Trazoi]

Ultimately, I dislike the fact that the game is set 200 years after the Bombs. If it had been 60 years, then everything (the economy, the kind of housing people are using) would make more sense.

It pisses me off that villages in Fallout had better architecture and maintenance than the Tenpenny Tower!!!
That's the aspect of the setting that bugs me the most too. While there were some silly aspects of the settings of the original 2D Fallouts (New Reno, you especially), they still felt like they worked as a post nuclear apocalypse world could given their time frames. Fallout 1 was about one generation after the bombs fell, and there's settlements focused on survival. Fallout 2 was three or four generations afterwards and established factions and nation-states have control over large regions.

The D.C. in Fallout 3 didn't feel like a properly functioning system, and it especially didn't feel like it was seven to ten generations after the bombs. By that stage I would have expected one of the groups to have won the city and extracted everything of value. Instead everything seems to be still there for the scavenging.

Edit:

Hum... Do you think the extra radioactivity of the area, specially of the water sources, explains why there isn't any agriculture in the area, and why the region is still locked into salvage mode?
Not really. It doesn't explain where all these settlements are getting their food. They can't be getting them entirely from salvage because a) it's been 200 years, they must have raided everything by now, b) the corner stores still seem to have loads of beer bottles and instant noodles and c) you'd think the Brotherhood or the Enclave would have set up supply lines by now or else be taken out by another group that has them.

Actually now I think about it, wouldn't a 200 year old bottle of beer be undrinkable sludge? :smallconfused:

[Avilan the Grey]

It doesn't make sense, but it does.

At least almost.

You have to remember a lot of things:


1. The world runs on Science!, not IRL physics.

2. China never invented bombs that were better than the ones used in WWII by the US (nor any missiles, they had to be dropped from planes).

3. Almost all of DC was reinforced, on purpose, to withstand a nuclear war, since they wanted all monuments etc to keep standing. Only a direct hit totally destroyed buildings. if you ask me how you reinforce buildings to withstand the forces of a nuclear bomb, see #1.

3.5. The reason the White House is just a smoking crater is due to a suicide bombing, not a bomb from the air.

4. The weather changed due to the war; rain is almost never happening, and with an extremely dry air the wear and tear of the ruins is much smaller.

Etc.

Oh and yes, the DC area is NOT a functioning system. They seem to be years behind most other places, even including such hellholes as Point Lookout and The Pitt, who are in ways further ahead towards a functioning system.

[Eldan]

From what I understand (and half of it or more may be fan rationalization I heard online), DC isn't called "Wasteland" and "Hellhole" by everyone for nothing: while elsewhere, there have been nation states and more or less functioning cities for more than a hundred years (i.e. California), DC is an irradiated ruin where nothing grows and there's no clean water. No one chooses to live there.

Really, the only few who still do are either crazy (really, most of them) or too scared of the raiders to try and leave.

Of course, this explanation makes the food situation even worse.

[GolemsVoice]

Yep, the timeline was screwed up good by Bethesda. I think they went for a more "general" post-apocalyptic feel instead of the more unique Fallout-y feel.

If you look at the original two Fallouts, almost all communities you encounter thrive, with minor or major problems. Power is still the only way to gain authority, so many towns are ruled or at least harassed by criminal gangs, but most manage to get by, or even expand.

In Fallout 3, you have Megaton, and, if you're feeling generous, Tenpenny Tower and the "town" of Girdershade.

[Triaxx]

Given the Commonwealth to the north, and even Point Lookout to the south, it seems that DC isn't easily accessible by any means other than boat, or the mountain tunnel from the Pitt, which is the way the Brotherhood arrived.

As for the lack of people, I don't suppose you've noticed the ravening hordes of Super Mutants and their Gore Bags, implying they're eating people, or turning them into more Mutants.

Food isn't as hard to explain. Molerats are relatively tasty, and Megaton produces clean water, if not a lot of it. Rivet City must have hydroponics if it's managing to grow rad free vegetables, which make sense since it's got lots of water and no safe ground.

It also might not be six or seven generations since the bomb fell, if all that's on the surface are survivors. None of the DC vaults were designed to open, or not to have surviving residents if they did.

[Eldan]

You can actually go look at the Rivet City Hydroponics in the lab. They are much too small, but still make Rivet City one of the few cities I could accept as working.
Mole-rat hunting isn't a bad idea either, though then you'd still need plants to feed the rats. Really, the lack of plant life seems the biggest problem to me with all the mutants, animals and people around who all need to eat.

[Avilan the Grey]

You can actually go look at the Rivet City Hydroponics in the lab. They are much too small, but still make Rivet City one of the few cities I could accept as working.
Mole-rat hunting isn't a bad idea either, though then you'd still need plants to feed the rats. Really, the lack of plant life seems the biggest problem to me with all the mutants, animals and people around who all need to eat.

Well the way I see it, the fact that there is grass, although "dead", yellow, it is probably alive and will get green the few times it rains (if it was totally dead, there would be no grass at all, just dust). This means that there is probably enough water stored in roots, etc, for the mole rats to see them as food.

[Eldan]

Hmm. True.

You could also assume that the time you are there is just a dry season, and there's a rainy season later, when it's a little greener. Who knows what nukes do to weather patterns.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well the way I see it, the fact that there is grass, although "dead", yellow, it is probably alive and will get green the few times it rains (if it was totally dead, there would be no grass at all, just dust). This means that there is probably enough water stored in roots, etc, for the mole rats to see them as food.

Do you think rain is radioactive or not?

Hum.. that'd be a pain, if we had to seek shelter when it rains, because otherwise, we'd get rad'ed.

[Eldan]

With Wanderer's Edition, the rain is radioactive. Not in the basic game, though.

Anyway... since the rivers are, it probably should be.

[SolkaTruesilver]

With Wanderer's Edition, the rain is radioactive. Not in the basic game, though.

Anyway... since the rivers are, it probably should be.

Humph.. I got Wanderer's Edition, I still have to see a single rain so far.

But i don't know if the rain should be radioactive. I mean, the clouds don't come from DC...

[sihnfahl]

But i don't know if the rain should be radioactive. I mean, the clouds don't come from DC...
If I remember Point Lookout, take a dunk in the ocean. Watch your rad level.

The place wasn't bombed. Two hundred years later, though, with all the ocean currents and weather, the waters give nice clicky-clicky.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Did you ever crossed the Potomac swimming? :smallbiggrin:

I grew fins.. hehe


Hum.. I am thinking of making a Ninja character. One that is all stealth (Chinese Stealth armor ftw!) and either unarmed or Melee weapon. Should I take unarmed ot melee?

Also, maybe some Small guns, for stealth-sniping ennemies. Or maybe explosives? to lay mines?

Does you people have any suggestion for the kind of skills I should aim to obtain? And what weapons I should acquire?

[sihnfahl]

Hum.. I am thinking of making a Ninja character. One that is all stealth (Chinese Stealth armor ftw!) and either unarmed or Melee weapon. Should I take unarmed ot melee?
Unarmed, with ... what was it, stunning palm? High stealth + unarmed + stunning = wut.


Also, maybe some Small guns, for stealth-sniping ennemies.
And for those 'rush to battle' scenes that don't let you stealth all that well.

And if you're getting close enough to enemies to do unarmed, you have the stealth skill to plant frag grenades. (Actually, except in the 'rush to battle' scenes, that's pretty much how I got most of my humanoid kills by endgame.)

If you can, get the deathclaw gauntlets. I believe they bypass armor.

[SolkaTruesilver]

If you can, get the deathclaw gauntlets. I believe they bypass armor.

They do.

And they make x5 criticals :smalleek:

I will be the Reaper Incarnated with that kind of setting. Falling on my foes and taking their lives.. I will charge in the herd of 10 feral ghouls and kill every last one of them.

Oh, yhea, I do plan to have negative Karma with my Ninja game :smallcool:

So.. Sneak + Unarmed + .... ? Small Guns?

Darn, I'll need to increase my Melee to get the Ninja perk.

edit; I am SO taking Bloody Mess. I wanna see body parts exploding around me!! :smallbiggrin:

Any suggestion as to what factions would appeal to me the most? My nerdguy probably wanted to be a friend to the Outcasts. What about the Ninja?

[Calemyr]

I don't know if you're big into modding, but every time I play a fist fighter I mod the deathclaw gauntlets to use Jaysus's claw model instead. I like the smaller profile and the more martial artistic animations. It's also just more stylish than having a stuffed hand strapped to your arm...

If you're going the "true" ninja route, you shouldn't be allied with anyone - instead, side with people who can pay you and only as long as they are doing so. Don't go out of your way to kill people unless you're being paid or their actively attacking you, and try to avoid killing even then until you're spotted. (It's a matter of professional pride. Remember what Azreal said: "Killing is high profile") Play the morality game just long enough to get Lawbringer and Contract Killer, so that you can be paid for any kill you make.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I don't know if you're big into modding, but every time I play a fist fighter I mod the deathclaw gauntlets to use Jaysus's claw model instead. I like the smaller profile and the more martial artistic animations. It's also just more stylish than having a stuffed hand strapped to your arm...

If you're going the "true" ninja route, you shouldn't be allied with anyone - instead, side with people who can pay you and only as long as they are doing so. Don't go out of your way to kill people unless you're being paid or their actively attacking you, and try to avoid killing even then until you're spotted. (It's a matter of professional pride. Remember what Azreal said: "Killing is high profile") Play the morality game just long enough to get Lawbringer and Contract Killer, so that you can be paid for any kill you make.

I can have both Lawbringer and Contract killer?

Hmm.. I like that :smallbiggrin: Any other recommendation?

Also, what does Jaysus mod entails?

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, what does Jaysus mod entails?

Well, if the name is any implication, you should be able to walk on water and turn it into wine. :smalltongue:

I think Jaysus is a modder, rather than the name of a mod.

[Calemyr]

Yeah, Jaysus is the name of a modder on Fallout3nexus.com, he's got a fist weapon mod there with a model I really like for deathclaw gauntlets, so I just download the model and mod the weapon to use it. I've toyed with sending my mod in, but it's really not difficult or inventive enough to be worthwhile, I think.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yeah, Jaysus is the name of a modder on Fallout3nexus.com, he's got a fist weapon mod there with a model I really like for deathclaw gauntlets, so I just download the model and mod the weapon to use it. I've toyed with sending my mod in, but it's really not difficult or inventive enough to be worthwhile, I think.

I don't know. I've looked at the model, and I am not *that* thrilled by how it looks.

EditL: Hum.. seems like I will have problem finding Deathclaw Gauntlet initially. So I will need to rely on other weapons. Any suggestions as to what piece of hardware I should go to first?

Also, do I seduce Burke, or do I kill by hand everybody in the city before bombing it, and then crush Moira's dream? :smallcool:

[Calemyr]

Heh. To each his own. I personally didn't like the way the deathclaw gauntlet looked and functioned in game. You go from bare knuckle brawler to swiping clumsily with a stuffed hand strapped to your arm. Using the Jaysus model, I keep the feel of hand-to-hand combat while still keeping the theme of the gauntlets. Like I said, it's not exactly ground-breaking, just a tweak that makes the weapon a lot more in keeping with my sensibilities.

Edit: If you want to exploit the Super Duper Mart, you can get a deathclaw gauntlet very early on. Just head to the SDM, but quicksave before you get there (I use the wooden fence behind it as a landmark, you can get halfway along it before you have to save.). Then just walking over there and then reloading until you get the random encounter you like (in this case, a very haevily injured Deathclaw and a dead wastelander). You can kill the deathclaw for the hand and the wastelander has the schematics for the gauntlet. If you have the Pitt DLC, I'd also recommend the Steel Knuckles, which have a ridiculously low AP cost, allowing you to go nuts in VATS.

Crushing Moira is not really my idea of the best option, especially if you're after crit rate. Being snide and sarcastic at every turn throughout her quest gives you a +3 to crit rate, which brings you even closer to a perfect 100% chance.

[mhensley]

I've been playing for several weeks now (up to level 28) and I'm still amazed at how much content I haven't seen yet. I still haven't gotten around to finding Tenpenny Tower. My biggest beef with the game is that at this point, there's no real need to buy or scrounge for anything anymore. I want a car like FO2 and bigger guns. :smallbiggrin: They left out too many great guns from FO2 like the CAWS and the G11. You know there's something wrong with the game when I'm still using the combat shotgun most of the time. Those small problems aside, I'm still having lots of fun.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I've been playing for several weeks now (up to level 28) and I'm still amazed at how much content I haven't seen yet. I still haven't gotten around to finding Tenpenny Tower. My biggest beef with the game is that at this point, there's no real need to buy or scrounge for anything anymore. I want a car like FO2 and bigger guns. :smallbiggrin: They left out too many great guns from FO2 like the CAWS and the G11. You know there's something wrong with the game when I'm still using the combat shotgun most of the time. Those small problems aside, I'm still having lots of fun.

Really? I am using Wanderer's Edition, and I found Pancor Jackhammer and H&K (they still suck hard, IMHO. Can't hit anything past 10 feet. But within 10 feet, they'll crap any Supermutant HARD).

Oh, and W.E. gives you a motorcycle for Fast Travel. You have to find/make fuel for it, and find parts to maintain it regulary. Add the Needs mod making you needing to feed, drink and sleep.. it gets really dangerous to go travel around.

[Calemyr]

The shotgun is a very good weapon. I would recommend the Terrible Shotgun instead (owned by Smiling Jim at the Evergreen Mills slaver compound), but it's generally a very hard one to say no to when up close.

There is a mod that allows you to purchase, repair, arm, and repaint the motorcycles found in game. The mod is a bit buggy, the controls are a bit loose, and it's very easy to accidentally hit friendlies if you aren't paying attention, but the only thing better than riding a motorcycle over the broken bodies of a gang of raiders is first taking them out with dual miniguns or missile launchers mounted on the bike!

[SolkaTruesilver]

There is a mod that allows you to purchase, repair, arm, and repaint the motorcycles found in game. The mod is a bit buggy, the controls are a bit loose, and it's very easy to accidentally hit friendlies if you aren't paying attention, but the only thing better than riding a motorcycle over the broken bodies of a gang of raiders is first taking them out with dual miniguns or missile launchers mounted on the bike!

Tell me there are gatling lasers.

TELL ME THERE ARE GATLING LASERS!

[Calemyr]

Tell me there are gatling lasers.

TELL ME THERE ARE GATLING LASERS!

There are. The mod lets you put dual miniguns, gatling lasers, flame throwers, and missile launchers. All have infinite ammo and can their angle of fire can rotate between straight ahead and straight to the sides. Unfortunately, you don't get any XP for kills on the bike and you can't use unique weapons like Vengence or Eugene.

[sihnfahl]

Any other recommendation?
Hm, silent running?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hm, silent running?

Off Course! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8u7px_GzWQ)

I plan to also take the WE's perk "Charge!" that allows me to keep my weapons drawn while running, which will allow me to rush and hit ennemies. I'll have to do a mix of stealth kills and fancy kung-fu speedy strikes. :smallbiggrin:

So...

- Chinese Stealth Armor
- Deathclaw's Gauthlet
- Sniper Rifle
- Mines
- Silenced Gun

Hum...

- Iron Strike
- Silent Running
- Charge!
- Sniper
- Finesse

Hum.. other ideas?

[Eldan]

Hmm. My last character was a commando/sniper. Going for a ninja sounds nice, especially since I still haven't really tried any of the DLC.

[SolkaTruesilver]

You NEED Anchorage, it will yield you a Chinese Stealthsuit. That has a permanent cloaking field that makes direct eye contact no reveal you!!

[Oslecamo]

You NEED Anchorage, it will yield you a Chinese Stealthsuit. That has a permanent cloaking field that makes direct eye contact no reveal you!!

Wich makes a lot of people consider it a brokenz item. True fallout ninjas hide behind cover and keep behind their oponents eyes untill the last moment!

Also, I strongly sugest Mars Mutant Mod to ramp up the difficulty. Because a couple raiders at lv30 isn't really a challenge. Twenty raiders? Much better.

[Trazoi]

My second (and current although stalled) playthrough of Fallout 3 is the self-imposed limit of unarmed or explosive weapons only (unless it's vital to complete a quest like the BB gun training mission in the intro). I'm also playing on the highest difficulty and wearing "character appropriate" armour, which in this case is the low armour medic outfit for the dirty singlet look.

It's quite a fair bit harder in the beginning, but once you've got several levels it's not that bad, and like most sensible characters you'll get extremely dangerous in the higher levels. It's not quite as invincible as a gun based character as you need to close the distance between you and your enemies, but that makes it more fun (although roof-mounted sentry turrets are a royal pain). Perks are pretty straight forward - pick the unarmed, sneaking and explosive ones, and remember to put points into melee even though you won't use it so you can get Ninja.

[EleventhHour]

Wich makes a lot of people consider it a brokenz item. True fallout ninjas hide behind cover and keep behind their oponents eyes untill the last moment!


Yay!

No, really. Hate the Chinese Stealth Suit. Looks ridiculous and I enjoy, and do very well, sneaking without.

[Eldan]

Yeah. I can agree on that. Looks weird, and while it was fun for a while, it makes quite a few things too easy.

My last outfit was a duster, lincoln's hat, biker goggles, a dust mask and three different ammo belts. That just seems to fit the setting better.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yay!

No, really. Hate the Chinese Stealth Suit. Looks ridiculous and I enjoy, and do very well, sneaking without.

But... ... you are a Ninja... :smalleek:

[Cristo Meyers]

But... ... you are a Ninja... :smalleek:

I have to agree that it looks pretty stupid unless you install one of the mods that makes the helmet a separate item. Without the helmet is looks much better.

Coupled with the shocksword it's just too fun. Sneaking up behind someone and then reducing them to a pile of ash with a single swing is always good for a laugh.

[SolkaTruesilver]

*grumble*

The new wound mod I have included in Survival of the Fittest (or is it FWE?) is quite annoying. I constantly have Blood Loss, Losing Blood, Burned, Head Trauma on me, and no way at all to have them cured. Not even going to a doctor!!! :smallfurious:

This mounts to -5 strenght and -4 Endurance, -4 agility. I can't take that. Somebody knows the console command to put myself in full-shape?

[Eliirae]

*grumble*

The new wound mod I have included in Survival of the Fittest (or is it FWE?) is quite annoying. I constantly have Blood Loss, Losing Blood, Burned, Head Trauma on me, and no way at all to have them cured. Not even going to a doctor!!! :smallfurious:

This mounts to -5 strenght and -4 Endurance, -4 agility. I can't take that. Somebody knows the console command to put myself in full-shape?

Sounds to be more of an annoyance than fun to you. Why not just get rid of it? It's not in FWE IIRC

[Eldan]

I think that belongs to Survival of the Fittest. I had it as well for a while, but it really got annoying when I had to get special doctor perks, and carry tubing, syringes, bandages, blood packs, braces and three different kinds of meds and use them all after every fight or be useless. Realistic, sure, but that went a little too far even for me.

[Triaxx]

I much prefer the Amplified Crippling Effects (ACE) mod instead. It simply makes the crippling effects more severe rather than trying to completely rebuild them.