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WeeFreeMen
2010-07-05, 05:08 PM
Just a quick question board, as my Google-Fu is failing me.

Is there anything that acts as Power Attack as a pre-req for Cleave without me actually taking Power Attack?

Kylarra
2010-07-05, 05:10 PM
Just a quick question board, as my Google-Fu is failing me.

Is there anything that acts as Power Attack as a pre-req for Cleave without me actually taking Power Attack?I'm kind of curious why you wouldn't want power attack.

Siosilvar
2010-07-05, 05:10 PM
Stone Power, ToB page 33.

EDIT: Requires Strength 13 and a Stone Dragon maneuver and lets you dump your attack bonus for temporary hit points.

Marriclay
2010-07-05, 05:12 PM
I'm kind of curious why you wouldn't want power attack.

He must be one of those guys who doesn't realize how awesome it is, I would think.

To answer the question, none that I know of. Power attack apparently has never needed a stand-in because everybody going into Melee wants it except for people who get their bonus damage from elsewhere

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-05, 05:41 PM
@Marriclay: Ah, Well. I am fully aware of the awesome that CAN be power attack, for those who can spare the BAB. My TWF can, however, I was simply looking for options. Always nice to have alternate routes.

@Siosilvar: Thanks man, I was looking all over. I vaguely remembered a substitute existing somewhere, just couldn't find it for the life of me.

@Kylarra: As stated before, Its not that I don't want it. I was simply looking for an alternate. My damage does indeed some from elsewhere. I have 20 Str and 20 Dex unbuffed but with modifiers.(I rolled well..) Shadowblade lets me add Dex+Str to damage, so per swing I'm getting +10 damage. Im duel-weilding mind-blade Katanas (with fire property). So my damage (At lv. 1) is looking like this. 1d10+1d6+10 / Attack.

My reasons for possibly forgoing Power Attack was that I was already doin sufficient damage. The plan is to get Lunge next level, for +5 reach until end of my turn for -2AC for 10ft reach Katana's with Cleave (And later great-cleave).

The question now is which version of Cleave do I want. Pathfinder or 3.5.
Im leaning towards 3.5 as It doesnt limit my attacks / turn. So long as I drop them instead of hit them, I can "warp" 5ft as a free action once per turn. and as a move action (With heroic surge) I can get another 5ft. So with the cleave combo, so long as I drop the baddies I can cover 25ft area.

..And now you know.
:smalltongue:

Keld Denar
2010-07-05, 05:56 PM
Cleave is decent. Especiallyl if you have reach. You should do enough damage to drop one foe per round in a 3-4+ foe encounter, so you should be able to claim your Cleave attack in nearly every round of nearly every fight.

Great Cleave, however, is bad. Chances are, if you are using it, you are fighting something that you don't really need it for. You would be better served investing that feat into something else.

Greenish
2010-07-05, 06:00 PM
@Marriclay: Ah, Well. I am fully aware of the awesome that CAN be power attack, for those who can spare the BAB. My TWF can, however, I was simply looking for options. Always nice to have alternate routes.

@Siosilvar: Thanks man, I was looking all over. I vaguely remembered a substitute existing somewhere, just couldn't find it for the life of me.Sadly, Stone Power also dumps your BAB.

@Kylarra: As stated before, Its not that I don't want it. I was simply looking for an alternate. My damage does indeed some from elsewhere. I have 20 Str and 20 Dex unbuffed but with modifiers.(I rolled well..) Shadowblade lets me add Dex+Str to damage, so per swing I'm getting +10 damage. Im duel-weilding mind-blade Katanas (with fire property). So my damage (At lv. 1) is looking like this. 1d10+1d6+10 / Attack.I assume your DM has houseruled the mindblades, since by the default rules you can't form two bastard swords. Also, you'd be better off using the short sword option so you wouldn't take so heavy TWF penalties.

My reasons for possibly forgoing Power Attack was that I was already doin sufficient damage. The plan is to get Lunge next level, for +5 reach until end of my turn for -2AC for 10ft reach Katana's with Cleave (And later great-cleave).I approve using the PF Lunge. The 3.5 version sucks.

The question now is which version of Cleave do I want. Pathfinder or 3.5.Pathfinder one is weaker, but neither is very good for you.
Im leaning towards 3.5 as It doesnt limit my attacks / turn. So long as I drop them instead of hit them, I can "warp" 5ft as a free action once per turn. and as a move action (With heroic surge) I can get another 5ft. So with the cleave combo, so long as I drop the baddies I can cover 25ft area.You'll need Great Cleave to benefit from 3.5 Cleave more often than once per turn, and in general it ain't worth it. The enemies pathetic enough to be dropped by a single one-handed non-PA attack are too weak to bother spending feats to kill for, and anyway it only works on enemies within your range.

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-05, 06:20 PM
@Greenish: Yeah, Ill answer them in order. Thanks for taking interest.

1) While Stone Power dumps BAB, it does so for Temp HP. While PA does so just for the sake (in my case) for a 1:1. Id take the 2:1 temp HP, since Im the party's quasi-tank. (Not by choice).

2) It is indeed a huge house rule, he made his own set of Psionic powers. Not consisting of your ordinary casting, instead akin to super hero powers (My class is a homebrew "Vigilante" which is pretty much, a guy who's snaped due to a traumatic event and now parades around as a super hero-esk. Costume included.) More to the point, Mind-Blade is always treated as a light weapon, in which you are proficient with (Gaining the Weapon Focus feat free as well) In this case, I take no penalties. Also, my Vigilante archetype is Deadpool, so duel-wielding katanas is priority.

3) Agreed. PF is far superior, +5ft a whole round is unbeatable.

4) What would you suggest instead?

5) I would normally agree with you, however, this campaign the DM awards combo/style points. So taking out 5-10 guys in one round is sure to give me some nice XP boost. (Keep in mind, the movement restriction is less significant as I can move 2 5ft warps free in a turn.)


@Keld Denar: Agreed. However, this campaign is in a wasteland, so low level mooks in mob mass are more common than say, one really though guy. Hence is why I'm concentrating my build on taking out the mob masses.

Also, keep in mind for those advising. My enemies are -not- fantastical, they are mostly Humans. Not dragons. I realize that normally this route would be sub-par, however, for this setting It appears to be optimal.

Greenish
2010-07-05, 06:37 PM
1) While Stone Power dumps BAB, it does so for Temp HP. While PA does so just for the sake (in my case) for a 1:1. Id take the 2:1 temp HP, since Im the party's quasi-tank. (Not by choice).Stone Power caps at 10 hp. That's hardly even peanuts beyond the first few levels. They also only stick around for that turn.

2) It is indeed a huge house rule, he made his own set of Psionic powers. Not consisting of your ordinary casting, instead akin to super hero powers (My class is a homebrew "Vigilante" which is pretty much, a guy who's snaped due to a traumatic event and now parades around as a super hero-esk. Costume included.) More to the point, Mind-Blade is always treated as a light weapon, in which you are proficient with (Gaining the Weapon Focus feat free as well) In this case, I take no penalties. Also, my Vigilante archetype is Deadpool, so duel-wielding katanas is priority.Ah, that explains things.

4) What would you suggest instead?Craven, for what is Deadpool without rogue levels? :smalltongue: Combat Expertise is always great: dealing damage outside your own turn is all good for the action economy. Things like Robilar's Gambit and that one feat that allows you to hit with both weapons as a part of an AoO should be grant too.

5) I would normally agree with you, however, this campaign the DM awards combo/style points. So taking out 5-10 guys in one round is sure to give me some nice XP boost. (Keep in mind, the movement restriction is less significant as I can move 2 5ft warps free in a turn.)
If you're really facing hordes of low-hp mooks often, I could see the use for it, but even then I'd rather invest on something that actually helps me in tough fights.

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-05, 06:51 PM
Ah. Once again, Id agree with you, however I don't have the stats for Combat expertise.. :smallfrown:

Stat Blocks:

Str: 19 (Will be 20 at 4)
Dex: 20
Con: 16-2: 14 (From racial)
Wis: 10
Int: 12
Cha: 8 (While Its normally a dump stat, this time It was more or less for RP. Deadpool is after all a cancerous mess underneath his costume.)


Can you refresh my memory on Craven?
As for Rolbars gambit. I was thinking that along the lines as well, just wasn't sure. Add in some Vexing strike?

As for being though in fights.. Im the hardest to kill thus far in the party.
Defensive Block

DR 6/-
Fire Resist: 5 (In a wasteland campaign, its pretty much only energy type)
Fast Heal: 3
And my HP Dice for "Vigilante" is d12 (Houserule, Max hp at lv1. No less than half on all rolls after. So I can always assume 8hp / lv [counting Con].

Greenish
2010-07-05, 07:00 PM
Ah. Once again, Id agree with you, however I don't have the stats for Combat expertise.. :smallfrown:What, did I write Combat Expertise? I did! I meant Combat Reflexes, which is the one that gives you additional AoO. :smallbiggrin:

Stat Blocks:
Str: 19 (Will be 20 at 4)
Dex: 20
Con: 16-2: 14 (From racial)
Wis: 10
Int: 12
Cha: 8 (While Its normally a dump stat, this time It was more or less for RP. Deadpool is after all a cancerous mess underneath his costume.)
Augh, tell me you aren't an elf?! Anyway, Charisma isn't just how pretty you are, and Deadpool is pretty popular (at least with readers).

Can you refresh my memory on Craven?Add character level to damage with SA.

As for Rolbars gambit. I was thinking that along the lines as well, just wasn't sure. Add in some Vexing strike?Vexing Strike? Do you mean Vexing Flanker?

As for being though in fights.. Im the hardest to kill thus far in the party.
Defensive Block
DR 6/-
Fire Resist: 5 (In a wasteland campaign, its pretty much only energy type)
Fast Heal: 3
And my HP Dice for "Vigilante" is d12 (Houserule, Max hp at lv1. No less than half on all rolls after. So I can always assume 8hp / lv [counting Con].
Pretty decent, but the best way to survive damage is to not be the one who is hit at. The second best is to not be hit (with AC, or preferably miss chances). DR, fast healing, HP and the like come after that.

But yeah, I agree that you needn't focus too much on defence as is.

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-05, 11:05 PM
@Greenish: Haha, I promise Im not an Elf, I would NEVER be a TWF elf just for..you know.. Drizzt-ism. eck.

As for Craven, Ill take it later when I retrain, at lv1-3 It wont matter much.

As for Vexing strike, Im not sure what Im talking about anymore. haha, Its late.

I also forgot, I got 20% conceal if I move 10ft or more. So DR, Fast Heal isnt my only defense.

Morithias
2010-07-05, 11:12 PM
I believe the book "Bastards and Bloodlines" has a template that gives you the feat for free. I believe it's called "Half-titan"

ProfMoriarty
2010-07-06, 10:31 AM
Also, keep in mind for those advising. My enemies are -not- fantastical, they are mostly Humans. Not dragons. I realize that normally this route would be sub-par, however, for this setting It appears to be optimal.

In the case of lots of mooks, getting a Whirling weapon(+1) might be better than great cleave, since everything will be in reach will die from a whirlwind attack just as easily. Except of course if you want to kill everything as a standard action or on an AoO with great cleave. Though whirling will hit everything even if nothing dies, so it's an option. Whirling works on a pounce, which you should have.

Don't get the whirlwind feat though, lots of pre-reqs you don't need.