PDA

View Full Version : Specifically Difficult Player



Karoht
2010-07-05, 06:10 PM
Normally I'm not one to complain about a problem player in my group. Typically, the group works things out itself well enough. But in this particular instance, The problem player is becoming a bigger and bigger problem with each session. I'll explain.

1-When there is a problem, any problem at all, he wants to roll dice to solve it. He is almost refusing to roleplay even. I typically award experience for solving puzzles or at least hazzarding attempts, now he's complaining that he's got less experience than everyone else. Worst of all is, he is EASILY the smartest guy at the table, all of these puzzles are very much in his scope to solve. IE-He was taken to court for blatently murdering a dozen people (including a major noble) in town square. He refused to even answer questions by prosecution, didn't want to defend himself at all, just told the DM 'just skip to the end, what is the reprocussions?'
2-If he starts getting bored, he'll just start trying to kill PC's. As in, player A is doing some shopping in the market place, consulting the DM regarding a magic item, all of a sudden pulls a surprise action out of no where and fireballs the area. See example 1 for how it tends to play out.
3-He's becoming increasingly meta, especially when it comes to assaulting other players. I've actually had to tell other players NOT to disclose ANYTHING about their character sheet to him, such as spells prepared, saves, AC, skills, nothing. Because he will specifically begin to tailor his next surprise attack in the middle of no where towards that player.
4-He refuses any change in his alignment as a result of his actions, and treats 'chaotic' as an excuse to pretty much anything. IE-One PC he met once and only once, the PC bought him dinner, had a great discussion with him, and helped him by sharing his spellbook. The next day, without the PC's knowledge that the player was even there, fireballed him and his cohorts in the back. Most people typically see the connection between having a friendly encounter with someone only to then commit a pre-meditated murder as at the very least, not an example of a Chaotic Good alignment.
5-He's recently become a bit of a loot thief, and if someone legitimately acquires some kind of powerful object, he's either a jerk, murders that person for it, or he mopes.

The part that disturbs me most, is that all of these behaviors are the kind he used to complain about other party members (who are no longer with the group) doing. Now he's doing it. And it's come on all of a sudden, not gradually.

Strangely enough, if I show up, he typically keeps from attacking party members, but sometimes the minute I walk away from the table (IE-Going to the bathroom), I come back to him grinning like an idiot and a half dead or mostly dead party. If I don't show up for session, I typically get a phone call about a party member rolling a new character. Guess why. And he never target's my character's for some reason. No, we are not brothers, we aren't even really friends in case it matters.

I'm trying to figure out if there is a bigger picture than what I can see. Is there an underlying cause? Is there something PC's are doing which is setting him off? Why the lack of roleplaying when he used to be THE MOST in character person at the table? Is there something other party members are doing wrong? DM's doing wrong? Something I'm doing wrong?

Any thoughts or suggestion's would be great. The party has spoken to me about it, and if things don't fix up soon, it is going to fall to me to kick him out.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-07-05, 06:13 PM
Have you talked about it to the other players?

Prodan
2010-07-05, 06:16 PM
Have you tried destroying him?

DragoonWraith
2010-07-05, 06:16 PM
It sounds like he doesn't even want to be there. I mean, he gets bored playing the game, and he constantly seeks to disrupt it. It seems quite likely that he doesn't actually want to play. Why he continues to show up if this is the case confuses me, but that's what it seems like.

You might consider asking him just that directly. Like, "hey, is there something wrong with the game? You keep seeming bored with actually playing it, and you keep disrupting it; it doesn't really seem like you want to play. What's going on?"

Zovc
2010-07-05, 06:17 PM
It sounds like he doesn't even want to be there. I mean, he gets bored playing the game, and he constantly seeks to disrupt it. It seems quite likely that he doesn't actually want to play. Why he continues to show up if this is the case confuses me, but that's what it seems like.

You might consider asking him just that directly. Like, "hey, is there something wrong with the game? You keep seeming bored with actually playing it, and you keep disrupting it; it doesn't really seem like you want to play. What's going on?"

Indeed, your player seems bored.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-07-05, 06:21 PM
Indeed, your player seems bored.

If a player is bored, is it the GM's fault, or the player's?

In the same kind of question, if a player snores during a D&D game, does he make a sound?

Greenish
2010-07-05, 06:23 PM
He's in love with you!

DragoonWraith
2010-07-05, 06:23 PM
If a player is bored, is it the GM's fault, or the player's?
There doesn't seem to be any way this could be the DM's fault. I mean, the player isn't even trying, so he's not even getting to anything that might be interesting.

Tanuki Tales
2010-07-05, 06:26 PM
He's in love with you!

I have to agree in the vein that from your description it sounds like he's only doing this to grab and garner your attention personally.

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-05, 06:27 PM
First of all, I find it hard to imagine that we, who only get information about your situation from you, would be able to have an insight into the situation that you didn't have.

Second, it definitely seems to me like there's some part of the puzzle that you haven't figured out. If I were to hazard a guess, it's one of the following

1. The player is bored with the game so he's trying to destroy it.

2. The player is upset over how other people are playing the game, so he's passive aggressively trying to demonstrate how they're being asshats (in his view) by acting in the same ass-hattish ways himself.

3. The player is mad at the other people at the table for one thing or another and is taking it out on them in-game.

Eurus
2010-07-05, 06:29 PM
He's in love with you!

You have no idea how close I was to saying that exact thing. :smalltongue:

But yeah, the symptoms suggest that it's probably boredom.

Lapak
2010-07-05, 06:29 PM
You might consider asking him just that directly. Like, "hey, is there something wrong with the game? You keep seeming bored with actually playing it, and you keep disrupting it; it doesn't really seem like you want to play. What's going on?"This is the best advice you're going to get. We can only guess at the problem; your player can TELL you what the problem is. If he has an answer, you can try to address it; if he doesn't, or if his reasons are bad, you should say "Look, you're making the game suck, and no one is having fun. Stop it, or you're no longer welcome to play."

Zovc
2010-07-05, 06:30 PM
If a player is bored, is it the GM's fault, or the player's?

Well, I don't feel like I'm capable of providing any insight on that.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-05, 06:32 PM
Tell him to shape up or stop coming to the game. He's bored, and nobody else is having fun with him around. He either has to change to fit back in with the group or go find himself a new one.

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-05, 06:44 PM
Your party (In game) doesn't retaliate?
Im not a fan of PvP, however, in this instance maybe he needs a dose of his own sadistic meds.

Is your party not able to handle him? Does he not sleep?
Fireballing a merchant district would surely upset some merchant bodyguards.
They have the money to buy the burly ones too.

I can't help but blame both player and DM. While its obviously the players lack of interest and wishing to spoil the game, some blame can be led to the DM for letting it even go that far.

If I was DM, I wouldn't allow a TKP while someone was in bathroom. Hell, he probably wouldn't have gotten outa the courthouse.
Next time he says "Just skip to the end" tell him there can be no end without him traveling the road to get there.

Just because he is intellectual, doesn't mean he gets to be arrogant.
All else fails, give him the boot and split his gear amongst the party as he had a sudden heart attack and died. (No save). :smallsmile:

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-05, 06:56 PM
Next time he says "Just skip to the end" tell him there can be no end without him traveling the road to get there.

No, the next time he says "Just skip to the end," tell him that he's been executed for his repeated crimes, roll a new character.

Karoht
2010-07-05, 07:52 PM
"First of all, I find it hard to imagine that we, who only get information about your situation from you, would be able to have an insight into the situation that you didn't have."
I'm in the situation and I seem to have difficulty grasping the insight I need to solve it. Thus I seek assistance, whether it be the exact advice I need or an oddball theory straight out of left field. I'll take what I can get. Beggers can't be choosers. In other words, I'm willing to try anything, which includes getting any and all insight I can from others who are disconnected from the situation.
My hope is also that non-involved people might have better luck spotting something amiss.

Some very excellent replies. Some things I have considered:

1-DM's Fault-Had this discussion with the DM already, and literally everyone else seems to be engaged. He's engaged if he's fireballing something, or dealing with his side of the loot. He's not engaged if anyone else is fireballing or looting. At least, this seems to be the observation of all players at the table, and the DM, and myself.
As a side note to this, typically his character is the one railroading/browbeating the rest of the party to go off on various quests. He's the one picking the plot threads to chase most of the time. Doesn't help that his decisions typically suck (because he's not really trying/caring about the reprocussions), or his actions tend to bog things down or get everyone into trouble, etc.

2-Attention/Revenge-That had actually crossed my mind. I wouldn't be surprised if he's taking out personal issues in game with people. I just have absolutely no idea what those personal issues are with anyone else. The DM's brought up his meta-behavior, he flatly denies any meta gaming whatsoever, regardless of how clearly the meta gaming is.

3-"The player is upset over how other people are playing the game, so he's passive aggressively trying to demonstrate how they're being asshats (in his view) by acting in the same ass-hattish ways himself." There was a player who was previously in the group who played the way he's playing now. This player was removed from the group, as well as broke off all sources of friendship with everyone from the gaming group. I'd like to point out that the problem player was vehemently against EVERYTHING that this banned player did, only he's slowly acting and even sounding like him. To my knowledge, the two were never friends and don't hang out or anything currently. But this might be a clue.

4-Punishment in Game-We've had him be attacked by guards when he does disruptive things. We've had him arrested and tried for murder, which he really didn't care about much. He tends to just wait for his punishment, deal with it or break it, and move on to similar behaviors. I'm not so sure that killing his character would really impact him at all. Even publically executing him.

5-Punishment out of Game-We've been talking about banning him, or at least asking him to take a break for a while. We're taking this very seriously, because this is the second person we've had to do something like this with in 7 years of the same game group. We'd really rather not kick him out. If this week's session goes badly, we're probably going to ask him to sit out a few weeks.

Again, I'm willing to consider any possibility, any suggestion, any action. That includes just booting him. I'm not looking for a reassuring pat on the back and someone saying "don't worry, he's just a jerk" and feel free to say "dude, it's totally you because you suck" kind of thing.


For the record and context of the discussion:
There are 5 players and 1 GM. I am one of the PC's, and (especially lately) I've been more of a quite skillmonkey in order to give others the spotlight (though I do have my moments) rather than taking center stage, especially from problem player. Some sessions I've been practically invisible.
And yes, I've done my best to engage him in session myself, he tends to ignore any and all attempts to role play conversations or any other kinds of interaction I can come up with while the DM is busy with someone else.

Kaun
2010-07-05, 07:52 PM
I take a hard line with this kind of stuff.

I ask them what the deal is once and if they havn't got a damn good reason i tell them to pull their head in or don't bother turning up.

Karoht
2010-07-05, 07:58 PM
Normally I'm more hard-nosed about it as well, but it isn't my game. The DM is a great storyteller, runs combat quick and action packed, puts together some excellent puzzles. This player has run with this DM before and never had an issue until lately. Seems to have started just in early March.

Lapak
2010-07-05, 07:58 PM
Again, I'm willing to consider any possibility, any suggestion, any action.
*snip*
And yes, I've done my best to engage him in session myself, he tends to ignore any and all attempts to role play conversations or any other kinds of interaction I can come up with while the DM is busy with someone else.Seriously, though: talk to him outside the context of the game. It's not something you should (or even can) address at the gaming table, with the group; it's something you should address face-to-face individually.

Karoht
2010-07-05, 08:08 PM
Seriously, though: talk to him outside the context of the game. It's not something you should (or even can) address at the gaming table, with the group; it's something you should address face-to-face individually.

I'll be doing so before next session, for sure. If his behavior is crap during the session, the group will vote on having him take a break or not. Or banning him, temporary or perminent, if it comes to that.

Oddball suggestion, the DM was talking about sending his character on a solo mission. Thoughts? I'm neither for or against such an action.

Kaun
2010-07-05, 08:13 PM
I'll be doing so before next session, for sure. If his behavior is crap during the session, the group will vote on having him take a break or not. Or banning him, temporary or perminent, if it comes to that.

Oddball suggestion, the DM was talking about sending his character on a solo mission. Thoughts? I'm neither for or against such an action.

I am not sure how that will fix anything unless it involves him being shot into the sun?

valadil
2010-07-05, 08:16 PM
Honestly? I don't think he wants to play D&D. I think he wants Grand Theft Auto. Let him play GTA instead.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-07-05, 08:25 PM
No, the next time he says "Just skip to the end," tell him that he's been executed for his repeated crimes, roll a new character.
I would skip the "roll up a new character" part.

Susano-wo
2010-07-05, 08:34 PM
It really sounds like he's got some sort of mental health diagnosis. Seriously, I'm not throwing that out there to be insulting. He's acting rather...crazy, in the literal sense. Aside from that, perhaps he just tried the behavior out and thinks its fun/funny now...I don't know. Just really smacks of him needing counseling/meds...

Talon Sky
2010-07-05, 08:40 PM
No, the next time he says "Just skip to the end," tell him that he's been executed for his repeated crimes, roll a new character.

This. Just....so this. Show this to your DM.

No PC in my campaigns is stupid enough to fireball a merchant district or any public place. For God's sake, if it's anything bigger then a small village, the town guard should be able to take him down. At the very least, most towns have one or two taverns that conveniently house extremely powerful DMPC adventurers who would be happy to stop the 'evil wizard attacking the city' much as the PC's would.

More realistically, I agree with how you and your group is handling this, but make sure the problem player is aware of why you're voting to boot him and he's there to defend himself/see the voting. Seeing his friends (I am assuming, after all, you guys ARE friends) so disturbed and serious about this might make him realize what he's been doing.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-05, 08:41 PM
I would skip the "roll up a new character" part.

I suppose that part is optional. :smallwink:

Kaun
2010-07-05, 08:42 PM
It really sounds like he's got some sort of mental health diagnosis. Seriously, I'm not throwing that out there to be insulting. He's acting rather...crazy, in the literal sense. Aside from that, perhaps he just tried the behavior out and thinks its fun/funny now...I don't know. Just really smacks of him needing counseling/meds...

Sheilds up mate!

For some reason makeing an armchair diagnosis in these forums is flame bait.

Catch
2010-07-05, 08:43 PM
He's bored with your game, but afraid of directly messing with you.

Buy him a World of Warcraft subscription (they sell $30 game cards) and tell him not to bother showing up next time. He can skip boring "plot" sections, grief all the players he wants, and doesn't have to deal with physical repercussions.

Perfect solution. See if you can't get the other players to chip in - with a group of five, it's only $6 a head.

Susano-wo
2010-07-05, 08:51 PM
Sheilds up mate!

For some reason makeing an armchair diagnosis in these forums is flame bait.

Well, hopefully I can at least reduce it by saying this: I'm not trying to diagnose, just saying that is sets off those sorts of flags in my head. I don't know the person nearly well enough or the situation enough to make a concrete judgment.
The guy just wants anything that might help...course I don't know if that will help. even if that is the case what can anyone but the person in question do about it...
IN any case, I apologize for not putting that disclaimer up with the post. I tried to word it as cautiously as possible, and allow that its only a possibility. So I hope no one is offended or thinking I am trying to diagnose someone I don't even know

freebiewitz
2010-07-05, 09:11 PM
First of all he is not playing a chaotic good character.
A chaotic good character is nuts/crazy and random sure but everything he does is for (As he see's it) the greater good.

He see's a bunch of merchants? He might insult them.
Guards? Might insult or avoid them.
Corrupt guards assaulting peasants? He might charge in and fight/protect.
Evil goblins? He might fight them in the most unorthodox way.

This person is playing either chaotic neutral or chaotic evil, maybe even neutral evil.

Anyhow this is what I think you should do.

On the role play level:
Since you all have good characters perhaps your characters would see his character as evil or a bad influence thus they would do one of the following things.
If one of your friends is a paladin they would try and kill him or at least not try to associate themselves with him.
If that fails you can just troll him by constantly trying to turn him to the path of right and good (Stick a bible in his hands while he sleeps, annoy him with constant prayers for his soul etc.)

Meta wise this is what you should do.

Tell him what you're telling us. Ask him why his character would do certain actions. If he answers the "Chaotic" characters would do that then tell him yes a chaotic character would do that but at the same time killing people for no good reason besides you wanted to is still considered an evil act thus sure you'll still be chaotic but you're also going to be evil.

Tell him he has yet to show what a "Good" Character would do.
I really hate when people use "Chaotic" as an excuse, I myself like playing chaotic good characters, the most evil thing I do is play pranks on allies and those never ever take off one hitpoint.

So yeah that's my two cents. Sorry about ranting so much.

AtwasAwamps
2010-07-05, 09:19 PM
I think you’ve got most of this stuff under control, honestly. You’ve talked to the DM, you and the other players have talked about putting together a vote, and more importantly, you’ve talked to the player about his behavior.

I would suggest actually making the comparison between the player who was asked to leave and your current player’s behavior in case the parallels haven’t been drawn yet. It sounds to me like perhaps he is unable to understand that connection or doesn’t want to acknowledge it. If he denies this behavior yet again and the veiled and not-so-veiled threat that he will be asked to leave, I’m afraid you must SERIOUSLY consider asking the player to step away from the table either as a temporary or permanent measure.

It sucks to do it. It’s going to lead to some bad blood, bad words, and things that probably can’t be unsaid, as you already know and have experienced. But it’s not you. If he won’t admit his disruptive behavior, then it will continue and to be frank, you are his gaming group and his friends, not his collective free therapy group or punching bags. It’s not your job to ruin YOUR hobby and fun times because of his ******* tendencies.

Shpadoinkle
2010-07-05, 09:27 PM
1-When there is a problem, any problem at all, he wants to roll dice to solve it. He is almost refusing to roleplay even. I typically award experience for solving puzzles or at least hazzarding attempts, now he's complaining that he's got less experience than everyone else. Worst of all is, he is EASILY the smartest guy at the table, all of these puzzles are very much in his scope to solve. IE-He was taken to court for blatently murdering a dozen people (including a major noble) in town square. He refused to even answer questions by prosecution, didn't want to defend himself at all, just told the DM 'just skip to the end, what is the reprocussions?'

That's when you say "So you're not trying to defend yourself, then? Okay, then they find you guilty and have you hanged. Roll a new character."


2-If he starts getting bored, he'll just start trying to kill PC's.

This is when you tell him you don't do PvP and if he wants that he should go play a video game.


3-He's becoming increasingly meta, especially when it comes to assaulting other players. I've actually had to tell other players NOT to disclose ANYTHING about their character sheet to him, such as spells prepared, saves, AC, skills, nothing. Because he will specifically begin to tailor his next surprise attack in the middle of no where towards that player

He's sounding more and more like a RL troll. At this point I'd have stopped inviting him.

Personally, I'd ask him what the deal is and why he's suddently acting like a jerk for no apparent reason. If he doesn't give you a real answer, stop gaming with him.

FelixG
2010-07-05, 09:35 PM
I would be more concerned about why a DM allows this player to come to the table again and again?

If a single player is bored and ruining the game for every other player involved (doesn't seem like he is enhancing the experience in any visible way) then why is the DM still supporting him instead of telling him to GTFO?

Wings of Peace
2010-07-05, 09:38 PM
If a player is bored, is it the GM's fault, or the player's?

In the same kind of question, if a player snores during a D&D game, does he make a sound?

Whether a player is bored or not is something a DM/GM can influence to a certain degree.

Whether or not that player is a whiny douche bag is not.

Whether or not that whiny douche bag will continue to be a part of the group however, is.

DracoDei
2010-07-05, 10:49 PM
Please report on how this turns out...

kamikasei
2010-07-06, 04:50 AM
It really sounds like he's got some sort of mental health diagnosis.
Or he's just having personal problems outside of the game and is taking it out on the group, possibly without even quite realizing it himself. Mental illness is not identical with bad behaviour. The guy may just be a jerk - perhaps temporarily.

I'd suggest the DM (definitely) and any friends the player has at the table (preferably) talk to him about it. Not simply, "this behaviour is not acceptable and either it changes or it will no longer be accepted", but "man, is there something up?". There's no need to bend over backwards to play nice with the guy but it may be that he's dealing with much more serious issues away from the table. Getting him to take a break for a while, or even the group taking a break to just do something other than D&D, may be better than kicking him out.

I'd like to point out that the problem player was vehemently against EVERYTHING that this banned player did, only he's slowly acting and even sounding like him. To my knowledge, the two were never friends and don't hang out or anything currently. But this might be a clue.
Is it possible this past problem player was actually some sort of evil spirit, like a poltergeist of obnoxious gaming behaviour, and now that he's been banished he's infected a new host in order to continue to haunt your table? You might need to contact WotC about getting 1d4+1 exorcists sent over.

Morithias
2010-07-06, 05:32 AM
I say he is bored. Maybe for the same reason that happened a lot in my group. Too many "No evil" campaigns.

Used to get where even the paladins and exalted people where acting kinda like this, eventually we all just said "Screw it, we're doing an evil campaign."

Finished the camp, made the whole world resemble baator, had a good laugh, and everything was better. I think we just got tired of the heroes and needed a nice quick taste of the evil side for fun.

Ingus
2010-07-06, 06:11 AM
It could be of any reason. I suggest to talk with him, not bad words but neither you should buy his "he's chaotic" justification. If he wants to avoid any discussion, I fear there is no solution except to boot him.
If he has issues on the "too good campaigns", you could really do a one-shot kill-em-all freaky session, go very evil, go very chaotic, have fun and see what happens.
If he's no longer having fun, then ask him "is there something we can do for it?" and if there is - reasonably - anything, boot him.
If he's having fun and all, you all have few solutions:
1. boot him (as you can see, it is a recurring solution)
2. (DM solution) Next time he blows away something, between the DMPC standers, there is a polymorphed (and divination immune) Great Wyrm Paragon King Dragon, that either:
a. is a chromatic, vengeanceful dragon, Choosen of Tiamat, that instead of killng him (he wouldn't probably be upset), make him his armless, tongueless toy and then give him back to the party, with the order of bringing him along as he was effective, or face their inevitable doom. So he's forced to roleplay without any chance to blow up anything
b. is a metallic dragon, Legal Good. He, so, puts on him a geas/quest or improved mark of justice (read OOTS for Belkar's) and force him to atone for his behaviour.
(in any case, your DM is forcing him to roleplay and could deus-ex-machin-ish undo all the havoc he does. Moreover, if he says "I'll roll a new one", your DM should insist to keep his former PC as an NPC, so he has the excuse to let the god-like dragon to screen the party and then undo all the mess the other character would do either)
3. If he complains on solution under 2., boot him.

SocratesOnFire
2010-07-06, 06:52 AM
Aside from the personal interactions between players I know not well enough to comment on, I think it would be possible to control his character in game in a reasonable way. If he doesn't fear NPC authorities, include tough NPCs, especially mage hunters. If character acts out of control and is caught and tried (as you have indicated in the past), your DM should favor capital punishment, as would be an expected response by a court. If he doesn't fear the death of his character because he can just roll an new one, pass the level loss onto his next character (he'll gain bonus exp for being lower level, and thus will catch up, but it'll bug him).

Aroka
2010-07-06, 07:32 AM
The player sounds like he wants to control other people by ruining their fun, like a little child having a screaming fit at an amusement park to force the whole family to leave.

Why would anyone want to play with a player like this? Stop inviting him.

Karoht
2010-07-06, 01:49 PM
Okay, at the suggestion of pretty much everyone on this thread, as well as with the agreement of everyone in the session.

Step 1-The Wordy Email-Get his side of all this in a non-threatening and private manner. See if behavior changes. The email prior to this will be the "is everything okay email" with nothing related to the play session involved.
Step 2-The One on One-Again inform this player of the impact he's having on the game and other players, in person. See if behavior changes.
Step 3-The Intervention/Vote-The entire party approaches this player, citing specific examples of the questionable behavior, allow for player to explain as available. If attitude does not improve, it's vote for break, temp ban, and perma ban.

Step 1 will be conducted tonight.
Session is on thursday, I'll probably meet with the person tomorrow afternoon for Step 2 if needed.

kamikasei
2010-07-06, 01:59 PM
Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't it be better if the DM did that?

AtwasAwamps
2010-07-06, 02:01 PM
Sounds reasonable, but wouldn't it be better if the DM did that?

I'd actually hazard a guess and say no, since clearly the DM does not command this player's respect and for some reason the OP does.

Karoht
2010-07-06, 02:03 PM
I've been delegated to do so, as it appears he at least respects me. This was a strong suggestion from the play group, including the DM, based on observations regarding his behavior when I'm around. The feel he will likely open up to me more, and he's done nothing hostile to me or my character, therefore he won't see me as biased because of something in game.

Umael
2010-07-06, 02:08 PM
I've been delegated to do so, as it appears he at least respects me. This was a strong suggestion from the play group, including the DM, based on observations regarding his behavior when I'm around. The feel he will likely open up to me more, and he's done nothing hostile to me or my character, therefore he won't see me as biased because of something in game.

Got a bad feeling that his demeanor towards you will take a radical change once you confront him.

Be prepared.

woodenbandman
2010-07-06, 02:12 PM
There's disruptive play, and then there's stuff like this guy does. Kick him out, no warning, no nothing. He's a douche, and he's being a douche for the sake of douchiness, and you're enabling him.

Karoht
2010-07-06, 02:39 PM
Got a bad feeling that his demeanor towards you will take a radical change once you confront him.

Be prepared.

Oh, I'm not expecting it to go well.



RE: You're Enabling.
You are 100% right. However I am of the mind that 4 years of excellent play outweighs 4 months of crap play, and most of the group feels the same way. But even then I have my limits. And I'm typically the least tolerant person of the group. Just saying. But I respect your comment all the same.

Dairun Cates
2010-07-06, 02:44 PM
This. Just....so this. Show this to your DM.

No PC in my campaigns is stupid enough to fireball a merchant district or any public place. For God's sake, if it's anything bigger then a small village, the town guard should be able to take him down. At the very least, most towns have one or two taverns that conveniently house extremely powerful DMPC adventurers who would be happy to stop the 'evil wizard attacking the city' much as the PC's would.

Even beyond that, don't ever get on the merchants' bad sides. If they're not raising your item costs and cutting your profits, they'll actively be hiring people to kill you with their wealth. Not to mention Merchants are usually in guilds... Guilds that don't take kindly to people screwing with guild members. Screw up in one town, and you could find you're blacklisted in a 500 mile radius.

Yeah. On the rare occasions a player has suddenly decided that being a jerk is a good idea, they've typically paid for it in the long run.



More realistically, I agree with how you and your group is handling this, but make sure the problem player is aware of why you're voting to boot him and he's there to defend himself/see the voting. Seeing his friends (I am assuming, after all, you guys ARE friends) so disturbed and serious about this might make him realize what he's been doing.

Won't he just tell them to "skip to the end"?

Karoht
2010-07-06, 03:15 PM
Won't he just tell them to "skip to the end"?

I c wut u deed thar

Bagelz
2010-07-06, 03:28 PM
It has been mentioned that this player repeatedly kills other PC's with a fireball to the back?

How is his character still alive. After the first or second incident I'd make sure my character either had evasion and a scroll of energy protection fire, or a readied action for a dispel magic-counterspell (also level 3- the same level as a fireball).
There is no reason one character should come out of a one on one pvp without being so beaten that the guards or other players couldn't swiftly take care the problem.

also I agree with the ticked off merchants putting a bounty on his head.

I once tried to get my character killed so I could reroll a different one.

Karoht
2010-07-06, 04:28 PM
It has been mentioned that this player repeatedly kills other PC's with a fireball to the back?

How is his character still alive. After the first or second incident I'd make sure my character either had evasion and a scroll of energy protection fire, or a readied action for a dispel magic-counterspell (also level 3- the same level as a fireball).
There is no reason one character should come out of a one on one pvp without being so beaten that the guards or other players couldn't swiftly take care the problem.

also I agree with the ticked off merchants putting a bounty on his head.

I once tried to get my character killed so I could reroll a different one.

I'm surprised as well, and it has been a testiment to the patience/trust of the party in most cases. As it is, the party has been taking precautions (IE-Invisibility on constantly for one party member unless he absolutely must deal with someone, and even then he uses an Illusion to do the talking for him).

Nero24200
2010-07-06, 04:50 PM
Kick him out. Some people play antagonistic characters - but at least they have some degree of subtlely. He doesn't.

It quite obvious he isn't having fun, and he's ruining everyone elses. I personally think the best thing you can do is tell him he's not invited anymore.

Severus
2010-07-06, 05:36 PM
He's in love with you!

Offer to have sex with him. If he turns you down, he's just being a jerk and boot him from the game :smallsmile:

Seriously, I'd disinvite him to the game. Our group has done this a few times before and it isn't fun, but it has helped the game a TON.

Skeletoff
2010-07-06, 06:08 PM
Since he is acting this way all of the sudden...perhaps he started his own quest? Like, he is under a geas/replaced by doppelganger/wears a sock of opposite alignment, and lets see how long will it take till the party finds out? I ve never been to a dnd game so I dont know if that is a valid theory, but I wanted to contribute with an explanation that doesnt make the guy a total psycho.

Kaun
2010-07-06, 06:35 PM
this might be true if it wasn't for the fact that the DM is all so concerned and wanting to sort the issue out.

Amphetryon
2010-07-06, 07:24 PM
Random thought: Did something unusual happen four months ago, in the game or in the difficult player's life? It sounds a bit like he had something big change in his life to stimulate that change in behavior.

Ingus
2010-07-06, 07:27 PM
In any case, keep us posted.

I don't know the others, but I'm starting to care about your group of players

Karoht
2010-07-06, 07:58 PM
Random thought: Did something unusual happen four months ago, in the game or in the difficult player's life? It sounds a bit like he had something big change in his life to stimulate that change in behavior.The only thing that I am personally aware of that occured around that time was that he basically ran into some money troubles, and was cut off socially for a while. A few regular weekly activities were cancelled around that time due to money constraints, but that was on the part of almost all parties involved (except the GM and 1 player). He had about as much choice in the matter as anyone else, due to said money problems.

He also started a new MMO around that time (Aion, in case it matters) but he quit that shortly afterwards as well.

If there were any other signifigant events in his life at that time, they are the kind I am currently not privy to.
Of course, it is also entirely likely that around that time certain party members may have unknowingly slighted him, and he may not have brought it to anyone's attention, or at least, didn't bring it to anyone's attention in a direct manner outside the game.

If it matters, the previous problem player (who this current problem player was vehemently against in pretty much all things) left shortly before Christmas, so almost 7 months ago, around 3 months give or take before problems began to crop up.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-06, 10:14 PM
i was in a game where somthing very similar happened. . .

we had a player who, when all atention wasnt on him, started doing random crap to get more attention. The only way he was having fun was if it was all about what he did or what he was gonna do. when ANYONE else had spotlight he was pretty much a giant D-bag.

This player we had started with PVP, loot stealing, and general jerkyness. . . we didn't deal with the problem fast enough.
After a few weeks of us trying to figure out how to deal with it he graduated to a new level of game interuption.
Almost every gaming group has their own bit of dirty humor and bad jokes that find their way around the table. . . this Guy took it about 50 miles past a step to far by pulling out his smart phone and playing inappropriate audio files at random times during the game. when i say inappropriate, i mean extreamly adult inappropriate, not the funny kind but the kind that makes even the dirty minded people feel uncomfortable. . . several of us have kids that are between 3-5 years old, we often bring our kids and let them play together while we game. . . he did this when our kids were right there.
he was asked to stop. he appolagized and said he wouldnt do it again. . . he did this several times. . . we were going to kick him out.
He beat us to it. He stormed out of a game because we wouldnt kick out another player whose only problem was that he occasionaly liked to use extreamly obscure rules to break the game in ways that resembled Cheese. the problem player was never asked back. . . we have all been much happier since.

my warning is this. . . if a player starts with disruptive pvp and loot stealing and generally acting like they are a D-Bag for the sake of attention and to cure their own boredum. . . they will ESCALATE things. . . deal with the problem however you feel you must but get to them before the problem becomes a horror story.

(side note: the cheese player was completely willing to work with us on not being so cheese filled, once we talked to him about it.)

Sliver
2010-07-07, 12:03 AM
I always wonder when I read this... Some player does some inappropriate actions IC, actions that neither the players nor the DM are OK with, and it works. Why? Why can't you respond to "I fireball PC X in the back! Tack Xd6 damage!" with "No"? Why can't the reaction to loot stealing be, to not change anything? To not write off the stolen loot of your sheet? If he rolls for initiative and attacks your PC while you are in social interaction, why can't you just ignore it and continue talking?

The way I see it, he is already trying to ruin your fun. Actually letting his actions count and affect you lets him accomplish this. If he is going to be immature about it and whine, don't treat him like an adult. He clearly wants to be treated as a child, otherwise he wouldn't act like one. Put him in time out, make him stand in the corner with a funny hat where all the kids will see him and he will be ashamed, or just ignore him.

Karoht
2010-07-07, 02:04 PM
Okay, email results:

The first email, basically asking how things are, hinting that I suspect something is wrong. His response:
"Nope, stuff is fine. Really. Don't need to be concerned."

Odd wording...

Second email, I basically explained why I was concerned, cited specifics on his behavior as much as possible. I tried to leave the rest of the group out of it as best I could beyond citing examples of his not-coolness. Tried to keep it between him and me. No response yet.

TheBlackShadow
2010-07-07, 03:03 PM
To be honest, I can't believe the other players haven't turned on him in-game if he's deliberately going out to kill his party members and make trouble. If it were me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight back/defend myself the first time, and if he persisted would go for the pre-emptive strike and crush him with overwhelming, unnecessary overkill.

Ubercaledor
2010-07-07, 08:26 PM
It sounds to me like it's either boredom or him taking out OOC personal stress IC.

Perhaps as annoying as the last disruptive player was booted, he became bored with not trying to dodge TPK all the time. As irritating as it can be to have a "chaotic = random" player, it can also be very exciting. Maybe the story has bogged since the last player was booted, and this guy is just trying to re-inject some excitement.

you say that he is the driving force behind quests. Sounds like he's quite enthusiastic about going out and getting things done, and the problems occur when the DM slows the pace. Maybe the DM spends too much time rule-referencing and monologue-ing, or he doesn't give the player enough rule-of-cool rulings.

I know when I've been railroaded and talked at and had all my creative ideas veto'd by "that would be too easy", I start to look at in-rule ways to spice things up.

hobbitkniver
2010-07-07, 08:34 PM
How is he so powerful to be able to kill the whole party and you don't have raise dead in you campaign?

I've had to deal with the non-roleplayer type, but jeez I wouldn't even let him play with my group. Do the other people like him at all? If not I'd tell him to play nice or get lost, but that's me. I live by the following rule:Its a game. If it's not fun, why are you playing it?

Edit: Maybe he fears you? I don't know what class you are but maybe you should kill him in his sleep.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-08, 01:51 AM
IMO, you should have kicked him out 3 months ago. I know this isn't particularly constructive, but that kind of behaviour sounds ridiculously disruptive, and he's just acting out to spoil everybody else's fun. It sounds like he is either bored, settling OOC grievances IC or is just a douche, as people have said already. We once had a player that was sort of similar, but less random violence and more generally annoying, ie insulting other characters, never really being useful in any situation, and getting uppity when our characters had a problem with him. We sorted it out IC, after my 6'7" half-orc barbarian knocked him out with one punch, and told him to shape up when he regained consciousness.

My point being, I agree with others that have already spoken that the rest of the party should have done something IC, for instance another mage challenging him to a spellcaster's duel (See Complete Arcane) or just leaving him in a city and going on without him, as he was just a danger to them.

Sorry for ranting, but thats my 2 cents.

wick
2010-07-08, 05:38 AM
Sounds like he may be depressed in real life. This could be a warning sign. I would get with him out of game and try to find out what is really wrong. If this is a good friend then your efforts maybe worth it. You can at least say that you tried to approach the problem proactively and in a positive manner. Perhaps this player can be salvaged.


Of course if no one really likes him you can drop hints like changing the gaming date and not tell him. Everyone ignore him when he plays. etc..

Karoht
2010-07-08, 02:26 PM
@Greak-The party has reacted in game. Thats why there was a multiple count of murder trial. On the other hand, many times when he strikes, it's the kind of surprise that you don't really get a chance to react to without some DM cheese. IE-Surprise round fireball, with another fireball on the way next round. When the characters only have an average of 40-60 HP, that's going to kill someone without some awesome saves.

Or, he does it while people are engaged in combat. He's rather crafty about it at times.

RE: The suggestion to drop him cold:
For reasons stated, we'd rather not. Also, it has been advised many times. If talking to him doesn't work, rest assured that the party will vote to either temp ban or perma ban the bloke.

The longest he has is next session, which is tonight. He hasn't answered my email regarding his behavior. So the party will be dealing with him. We'll see how it goes.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-08, 02:30 PM
Fair enough, I thought after I'd posted that the murder cases might have been in direct response, but I wasn't sure and didn't want to edit :smalltongue:

I hope it goes well tonight, and the problem player sorts it out. If not, please post and say how it went, for all those people out there with similar problems.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-08, 02:35 PM
Let's hope there are no bricks thrown through windows.

Sliver
2010-07-08, 02:37 PM
Let's hope there are no bricks thrown through windows.

And if there are, at least make a funny story out of it.

Amphetryon
2010-07-08, 02:40 PM
Let's hope there are no bricks thrown through windows.
You think ThatLankyBugger's former DM found a new group? :smalleek:

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-08, 02:41 PM
You think ThatLankyBugger's former DM found a new group? :smalleek:

I thought that earlier, that was the DM who ended up being arrested, right?

Sliver
2010-07-08, 02:42 PM
I thought that earlier, that was the DM who ended up being arrested, right?

Yeah. I really wish we had more stories about that guy.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-08, 02:43 PM
Yeah. I really wish we had more stories about that guy.

Yeah, not for the horror of it but because he makes the best anecdotes imaginable.

mint
2010-07-08, 05:42 PM
Ok so was he in love with you? We're all dying to know!

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-08, 06:05 PM
Ok so was he in love with you? We're all dying to know!

Yeah, who needs soap-operas when you have Giantitp?

TheBlackShadow
2010-07-09, 05:27 PM
*Begins playing the Coronation Street intro music*

Lycan 01
2010-07-09, 10:00 PM
*reads thread. Grabs popcorn.*

Welllll, how'd it go? :smallbiggrin:

big teej
2010-07-10, 01:16 AM
well, a few other people have picked up on what stuck out to me.

that being "something is up in real life"
somewhere in the OP (I'm sorry, it's late, I didn't feel like hunting it out after reading everyone else's posts)

I read something along the lines of "all of a sudden, he changed"
and my kneejerk reaction was "doppleganger? :smallconfused:"

people typically don't radically change overnight (or between sessions)


*disclaimer
I speak my mind from the experiences i've had, you may proceed
Okay, email results:

The first email, basically asking how things are, hinting that I suspect something is wrong. His response:
"Nope, stuff is fine. Really. Don't need to be concerned."

Odd wording...

Second email, I basically explained why I was concerned, cited specifics on his behavior as much as possible. I tried to leave the rest of the group out of it as best I could beyond citing examples of his not-coolness. Tried to keep it between him and me. No response yet.

As someone who is "the go to guy" for his friends (and even a few enemies) when people need an ear to vent to or a shoulder to lean on, this statement right here
"nope, stuff is fine. really. don't need to be concerned"
sends up so many red flags to me it's not even funny.

regardless of what happens within the group, if he was ever your friend, I highly recommend keeping an eye on him.

unless he's in the habit of wording things like that (which from what you said sounds like its not)
something IS up. if he won't confide in you or the group though, there's not much you can do.


hope this turns out well

BLiZme.2
2010-07-10, 02:34 AM
I ditto big teej especially the

Okay, email results:

The first email, basically asking how things are, hinting that I suspect something is wrong. His response:
"Nope, stuff is fine. Really. Don't need to be concerned."

Odd wording...

Second email, I basically explained why I was concerned, cited specifics on his behavior as much as possible. I tried to leave the rest of the group out of it as best I could beyond citing examples of his not-coolness. Tried to keep it between him and me. No response yet.

I may not be the most insightful person (lord knows I am not) but I have personally dealt with depression and that is exactly what it looks like you mentioned money trouble and even if it is not at all in your control people prone to depression still blame themselves and cant see the forest for the trees when there in the middle (sometimes evan when they get out) trust me I know iv lived that. Look out for this guy I think he is asking YOU for help. Good Luck God speed.

On the off chance he is just looking to spice things op or magically became a jerk (ha ha fat chance) then kick him to the curb

But BUT it really sounds like he is hurt some how (he cant explain himself to you, he was a good-great guy boom he is a jerk coinciding with money trouble {most real jerks in my opinion will snap to the defensive when faced with there jerkatude depressed people tend to hesitate}) and needs your help and cant bring himself to ask so he is doing what he can manage and that’s try to set off your red flags and hope (likely in his mind hope against hope you will see) if he really need s heel my best solution for your group is to shake up the game you play (it may have painful memories of “better times”) now and continue with him (the game may hurt but if he sees the grope as friends that will help) while you and maybe the group help him get some psychological help to reiterate money can seriously trigger depression try to help this guy I think if anyone you can.

Psyx
2010-07-10, 04:14 AM
'just skip to the end, what is the reprocussions?'



tell him that he's been executed for his repeated crimes, roll a new character.

^This. So very this.

It's an RPG. I think you need to buy him some small 25mm figures, a set of wargame rules, and tell him to p*** off.

Gaming is about fun. When 5 people aren't having it and sacrificing a night for the game because of one player, that player needs to straighten up of go.




2-If he starts getting bored, he'll just start trying to kill PC's. As in, player A is doing some shopping in the market place, consulting the DM regarding a magic item, all of a sudden pulls a surprise action out of no where and fireballs the area. See example 1 for how it tends to play out.


Kill him back. Start it. Slit his throat when he is asleep. Play unfair. You mentioned that he hasn't actually died. Maybe that's it. He hasn't has to face any reprecussions and feels that there is no significent risk because you/the GM lack the 'spine' to deal with him/whatever. So kill him. Three times. See if he takes the hint.

Also: You don't automatically just get surprise rounds. Insist that the GM gives you a sense motive / spot check. Then gun him down.



3-He's becoming increasingly meta, especially when it comes to assaulting other players.


So he's increasingly cheating while disrupting the game.

Byebye.



4-He refuses any change in his alignment as a result of his actions


So he's refusing to do what the person running the game is telling him to do regarding a rules issue.

byebye.




Strangely enough, if I show up, he typically keeps from attacking party members.


It must be love.
Tease him mercilessly.
Until he cries.


He sounds bored. And attention seeking. And he feels invulnerable: Nothing has any 'real' repercussions, and he's not the one rolling up new characters enough. He is on a selfish ego trip. God syndrome. He wants to feel that he is better than everyone else and 'deserves' more from he game.

Why are the party still with this guy? Get up early one day and leave town without him.

Better still: Slit his throat first.




Oddball suggestion, the DM was talking about sending his character on a solo mission.

Only a good idea if it's to the royal torture chamber. Spend a session flicking between scenes... the party roleplaying breakfast and talking to contacts, then quickly flick back 'They pull out your fingernails and flay your skin: Loose 2 Con permanently', then cut back to the party for 40 minutes before he can even reply.
:smallbiggrin:


Being depressed is bad, but it doesn't excuse ruining everyone's evening on a regular basis.

I'm sounding really harsh, but then look at how this guy has behaved. Bear in mind that you are probably the most sympathetic, as you haven't lost a character to it yet. Imagine how hacked off the other players and GM are.

Karoht
2010-07-12, 10:50 AM
Okay, so here's the story of what happened when I ran into him at session.

Before the session started, he pulled me aside, and asked me if everything I wrote in the email was true. I said yes, to my knowledge.

He then preceeded to call everyone over for a pow-wow. He took my email, and responded to each and every instance I could bring up, with what was going on in his head, as well as telling his side of the story.

Now some of them, we were in the wrong, or we had misinterpreted. Turns out that when he argues with people, if multiple people gang up, he'll almost automatically drop the issue. Thus he dropped the issue at the time, which caused us to think he was being standoffish and rude. However, this was the minority, not the majority of instances.
A few others, he was genuinely surprised that we were upset, or at least upset to the extent we were. Rather than argue about it, we let that one go.

To the remainder of cases, he admitted to the douchebaggery. He really said that at the time he didn't care. Some of these cases, it was him just trying to thin the herd, get a larger reward or share of loot, and in some cases, there was no real motive beyond "was bored, wanted something to do."
He also explained that he's really not good at the roleplaying aspect of the game. Which we countered that he's had some of the best roleplaying moments we've ever seen at the table. He seems to be just... uncreative lately. Part of why he's so competative is that if he's not ahead of the curve he feels utterly useless. So he focuses on play aspects rather than character.

Now, about once all the story telling/arguing had been done and the group was at the point where we wanted to make a decision, I told the group to talk it over among themselves, and I pulled him aside.
I went to ask him, because it was pointedly obvious, why he never ever turned the jerk ray towards me.
He said it was because I was constantly trying to keep him engaged in the game. Apparently I was always chatting with him about his character, what progression he was always going to do next, stuff like that. In crappy situations I was always trying to throw suggestions at him. Whereas the others would always do stuff like say "just cast a spell or something already" which probably also contributed to his lack of creativity.

I actually point blank asked him, and I quote:
"Are you able to tell me with 100% certainty, that everything else is okay?"
And he said no.
We went for coffee on saturday to talk about it. Some of it is private, some of it is work related. He works for Safeway, they've cut his hours harshly, and it's made him look at his life through a differently. He's applied at all kinds of places with Safeway his only experience on his resume, which in this economy doesn't exactly open a lot of doors, and he's taken it really personally.

And so, the decision.
We decided that his current character would be put on hold. The DM handed him 2 character sheets. A Rogue and a Druid. There are also some restrictions on those characters. He was told that his current character is being placed on hold, with an in-game explanation. He has to play one of these characters, for a minimum of 3 sessions. Both characters are designed with a bit more party utility in mind, so he is encouraged to work with people. In 3 sessions, the party will vote again and if he's improved, he can either have his old character back, or keep going with the new one.
We felt this was the best way to go, in light of personal feelings, and in light of some other outside factors, rather than just giving the boot. He chose the Druid, which surprised all of us. He's never played one to our knowledge. The reason for the new character rather than continuing the old one is the idea that a fresh start will be good. The old character has a lot of sore feelings associated. We actually kind of don't expect the old character to come back.

We're also taking away 'dice roll solutions' for him. We're encouraging him to ask more questions of the DM and solving more problems by describing precisely how he solves them, rather than turning every puzzle into a skill check. In return, we are all going to try to be more communicative, especially the DM, to make sure he's got all the details he needs to even perceive the problem properly, let alone solve it.

We'll see how this goes. He knows his old behavior is unacceptable. And it has been made clear that if he screws up, he's out for a minimum of 6 months.
Directly after all this conversation, we got started. He was a bit sluggish at first, I think the criticism was still sinking in, but once he got his footing he played much more like the fellow he used to be. I think in 3 sessions he might be back in the swing of things.

RE: Depression
Yes, he's depressed, his life has sort of turned around pointed out all of his flaws to him, approximately at the same time. He took a lot of it out In-game. Him and I talked about this for a while. He's got plenty of skills, he just has got comfortable in not using any of them. Part of why we want him to keep playing as well is to encourage those skills again.

RE: Booting
Psyx-You brought up all the points that were covered with him. We pointed out many many reasons why any other group would boot him. I also informed him of this thread, and the overwhelming call for a boot. That may have helped sober him up. I might actually copy and email your post directly to him, because it outlines pretty much all the reasons for a boot quite well.


========
Well, sorry for the incredibly long post. I know some people wanted to see us boot him, but he made a good case, and his previous record still means something to this playgroup. But he is going to be watched very very carefully.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-12, 11:09 AM
That is fantastic news, I'm so glad that things have been resolved (For the next 3 sessions at least, hopefully). :smallbiggrin:

AtwasAwamps
2010-07-12, 11:12 AM
YOu and your group handled this situation beautifully. Well done.

Critical
2010-07-12, 11:53 AM
*sheds a tear*
This should be filmed.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-12, 12:04 PM
But what genre? Comedy? Drama? Sports-success movie?

AtwasAwamps
2010-07-12, 12:06 PM
But what genre? Comedy? Drama? Sports-success movie?

After School Special

The Glyphstone
2010-07-12, 12:06 PM
Actually, we should hold off on deciding. If this still doesn't go well after 3 sessions, it's a tragedy.

Sliver
2010-07-12, 12:08 PM
Well, I'm happy to hear it turned out okay.

Or did it?

DUNDUNDUNDUUUUUUUUUUN

big teej
2010-07-12, 05:23 PM
well, 3 sessions pending, I'm glad that it seems to have turned out okay.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-12, 06:04 PM
I'm really impressed by how the guy took this, honestly. I mean, it's not easy to have the entire group on your case like that, and he owned up and took responsibility, instead of getting defensive, which honestly is going to be any human being's instinctual first reaction. It says to me that this is a guy worth the effort of trying this with.

dps
2010-07-12, 06:21 PM
I'm late to this thread, but in all honesty, I think that, assuming that he's being honest with you about his behaviour stemming from depression due to work/financial problems, this is the best outcome possible. 'Cause when I read the part about this starting suddenly in the OP, my first thought was, "drug problem" and my second was, "brain tumor".

Ubercaledor
2010-07-12, 10:30 PM
Having dealt with lots of friends suffering from depression (1 in three people apparently), I can honestly say that you've done as much as you can. The most important thing when you're depressed is to know that there's someone out there, somewhere, that cares about you enough to see through the wall of denial.

Often simple things like "listen, I KNOW not everything is ok, and there's nothing wrong with that." can make the difference.

Claps for handling a delicate situation with sensitivity and poise, rather than following the "Dumb cheat/slayer/TPK OOC/IC shenanigans should be booted" approach. Your group should be commended.

Karoht
2010-07-21, 02:25 PM
Okay, update. Last session was the 15th, just didn't get around to updating.

So at first, he was rather sluggish. Just sort of going along with the party. Well, the party got ambushed, he managed to get away. Which worked out well actually. The DM basically turned this to his advantage, and gave this person a chance to free us.
Recalling that he picked a Druid, he basically solved 3 puzzles using nothing but his Wild Shape quite well. He shifted into a dog and got past the outer guards. Once in, he shifted into the form of a house cat (to slip the collar which was tied onto a hook on a wall) and managed his way into the kitchen of the keep (though he had to stomach some raw fish to do it. Almost failed the con check), then shifted into the form of a rat to slip under a door, made his way down to where we were, crawled into a guard's pocket and hitched a ride to our cell. Then stole the keys from another guards pocket, and busted us out.

This is the kind of thing we were used to before. During his not-so-good time, he would have just arbitrarily rolled skill checks, or tried an intelligence check (typically playing wizards) and would bug the DM that with an INT that high his character should be able to solve puzzles. Nope, didn't bother. Just pretended to be two cute animals to fool people, was a rat for sake of fitting under a door but then continued to use it's advantages. We didn't have to poke or prod or make suggestions, he just sort of fell into it like putting on an old shoe.

He was also decently smart enough to hide all his gear within easy reach of the jail, as he couldn't bring any of it with him obviously.

But yes. First session of the probation went well.

Caphi
2010-07-21, 02:28 PM
This topic warms my heart. Good luck!

Abies
2010-07-21, 03:15 PM
He was also decently smart enough to hide all his gear within easy reach of the jail, as he couldn't bring any of it with him obviously.

For future reference and the enhanced enjoyment of the Druid class for the other player:

Wild Shape (Su)
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

You retain whatever you're wearing when you shift into Wildshape, no need to hide his stuff before shifting.

big teej
2010-07-21, 03:18 PM
-throws party over happy ending-

Tyndmyr
2010-07-21, 03:35 PM
Have you tried destroying him?

I like this approach. Try it.

Sliver
2010-07-21, 03:36 PM
I like this approach. Try it.

After we hear about the happy ending?! NEVER!

Tyndmyr
2010-07-21, 03:51 PM
After we hear about the happy ending?! NEVER!

What ending could be happier than one involving fire and destruction?

Sliver
2010-07-21, 03:54 PM
They are rare, but they do exist.

And you can have fire and destruction, just aimed at random folk, not your redeemed players.

Kylarra
2010-07-21, 04:35 PM
They are rare, but they do exist.

And you can have fire and destruction, just aimed at random folk, not your redeemed players.Remember that the fire has to be on fire though.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-21, 04:54 PM
And the flames of the fire are also on fire.

freebiewitz
2010-07-22, 04:40 AM
You my friend is what is right with the internet and gaming!
Why?
Because we in the dnd business are in the minority. Recruiting new players is hard but possible. What you have done is GREAT! You have redeemed one that was deemed nonredeemable! In a hobby like ours it's best if we try and keep our numbers not just growing but stable as well.

I tip my hat to you.

Ingus
2010-07-22, 05:35 AM
Very happy for the happy ending. :smallbiggrin:
Try not to be too harsh if he eventually fall a bit, in next sessions, but for the rest, very well done!

(Now just for kidding)
Now, you have obviously have to go along with the plan as scheduled: after the other 2 sessions, boot him. Expecially if he bahaves :smallfurious:

Karoht
2010-07-22, 07:37 AM
Second probation session tonight.

Also, when we talked about the probation, one idea we tossed around was the idea of having his new character cross paths with the old one. DM seems to think it's a good idea. I'm... not sure. Problem player is not aware of this yet.

I get the feeling that this is a bad idea, though I do see the DM's point of view on the matter. He thinks that having him put face to face with his previous behavior will help put it all behind him.
I disagree. I think the changes which have been made are positive, but to throw all the crap back in his face? Doesn't quite seem like a positive step.
My vote is no, now that I think about it more.
Thoughts?

big teej
2010-07-22, 08:11 AM
if the idea is for there to be an epic duel between the two, and the redeemed player is meant to utterly obliterate the old character... and he's given some form of a heads up and is cool with the idea
go for it

otherwise.... sounds kinda like a bad idea to me

Gan The Grey
2010-07-22, 08:14 AM
Second probation session tonight.

Also, when we talked about the probation, one idea we tossed around was the idea of having his new character cross paths with the old one. DM seems to think it's a good idea. I'm... not sure. Problem player is not aware of this yet.

I get the feeling that this is a bad idea, though I do see the DM's point of view on the matter. He thinks that having him put face to face with his previous behavior will help put it all behind him.
I disagree. I think the changes which have been made are positive, but to throw all the crap back in his face? Doesn't quite seem like a positive step.
My vote is no, now that I think about it more.
Thoughts?

I agree. You've already made his behavior quite public OoC, and he is showing definite improvement. I see no reason to make his behavior public once again in character. He is trying to move on. I think the rest of the group should do the same.

Quietus
2010-07-22, 08:39 AM
I agree. You've already made his behavior quite public OoC, and he is showing definite improvement. I see no reason to make his behavior public once again in character. He is trying to move on. I think the rest of the group should do the same.

This, a million times this. The redeemed player has had the balls to step up, admit his problems, and move on. The group should do the same. Kudos to all of you for handling it well, like mature adults should do.

jiriku
2010-07-22, 09:53 AM
Yah. Having your wise elder master arrange for you to publicly battle your inner demons in a physical form is only cool in the movies. IRL, it's annoying and embarrassing, and you're likely to think your elder master is a douche for making you do it.

Karoht
2010-07-22, 10:12 AM
Yeah, just got off the phone with the DM. It's a no. Phew.

RE: Mature Adults
We play in a big group over at one guy's house. There's about 20 of us total, typically broken into groups playing 3 or more games at once. Most common ages are 19-24.
The DM is 44, I'm 28, most of the rest of the group is 22, problem player is 26, for reference.

But then again, I've never used age as a yardstick for maturity. I've met 60 year olds who would act like children in public. I've met 10 year olds who, when you talk to them, you would think they hold down a job and have a wife and 3 kids. Just saying.

Karoht
2010-07-22, 10:13 AM
Yah. Having your wise elder master arrange for you to publicly battle your inner demons in a physical form is only cool in the movies. IRL, it's annoying and embarrassing, and you're likely to think your elder master is a douche for making you do it.

Haha, never thought about it in a movies VS real-life way. Spot on.

Bharg
2010-07-22, 10:18 AM
I also advise against the confrontation scenario.

DracoDei
2010-08-01, 07:46 PM
Glad this is working out so well... please tell us how the third session goes/went.

Karoht
2010-08-03, 08:50 AM
Whoops, I forgot to update.
Yeah, second session was a party wipe.
Explosive runes on a piece of paper included in a scroll case. Would have been fine if the spellcaster hadn't yelled out "oooh, look what I found" followed by everyone running over to see. The caster tried a spellcraft check on the piece of paper, thinking that it was some kind of scroll he couldn't identify, and when he did not succeed on the check, the player assumed it was some kind of uber awesome scroll of some sort, and called everyone over. The DM figured that at least someone would survive. But everyone was weaker than he expected from the fight right before hand.
We're not sure what we're going to do next. We haven't met up since due to vacations and the like. I think we're going to meet up next thursday to figure out if we try to DM fiat a way out of the party wipe, or if we just move on to a different game for a while or whatever.

The Glyphstone
2010-08-03, 08:57 AM
At least it's a suitably entertaining end to a game, if you go that route...