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Morithias
2010-07-05, 11:10 PM
I am not sure 100% if I have gotten this but I think it works.

We have 3 parts to this combo. Human race, Fire souled template, and legendary leader prestige class. (PHB, DR314, Heroes of Battle)

The requirements for said class are "iron will, leadership, and a leadership score of at least 7"

Now race applies before class, as we know if a class requires you to be Lawful Good or has some other requirement that your race cannot be (like a lolth touched has to be CE) then you cannot be the class.

Therefore I take my human feat (iron will) before my first level.

Next the fire souled template (La +3) grants me the leadership feat as well as +4 charisma, so I put a 14 or higher into my base charisma stat.

Now at level 3 it looks like this

Character level 3
Charisma 18 (+4 mod)
Iron will feat (human)

This gives a leadership score of 7 which fulfills the requirements for the class.

At level 4. I take my first class level, which just happens to be a prestige class.

Note: This build is even more fun if you're playing with the buying off LA variant from Unearthed Arcana. Because you can buy off a la 3 by level 20, meaning that by the time you reach epic, your first level period is a prestige class.

Ranos
2010-07-05, 11:12 PM
Where's that fire-souled template from ? Anyway, yeah, that works.

Douglas
2010-07-05, 11:12 PM
Sorry, but the Leadership feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) requires character level 6 as a prerequisite.

Edit: Wait, you're getting it as a bonus feat? That might do it, though I'm not familiar with that template.

Morithias
2010-07-05, 11:13 PM
The fire souled template is from Dragon Magazine 314. Which me and my group allow seeing how it is WOTC published (or was). A group that does not allow dragon cannot use this build to my knowledge.

PId6
2010-07-05, 11:36 PM
Does character level take into account ECL or class levels + RHD only? I thought it was the latter, so your leadership score doesn't take into account LA, but I'm not quite sure on that.

Escheton
2010-07-05, 11:44 PM
Nice, but you would stil be LA 4.

You can have prestigeclass at LA 2 if you want.
Just take commoner as your first lvl. Giving you saves of 0 0 0 on a lvl 1.
The survivor presigeclass from savage species states your highest save must be lower then your lvl. Which is at lvl 6 for all but commoners.
thats about it.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-05, 11:51 PM
I can get into an actually good Prestige Class, with a good base, at level 2. Namely, Wizard 1/Anima Mage X counts as an Xth level Binder, and an 1+Xth level Wizard, and is do-able by using several variants from Unearthed Arcana, including two Flaws, to get Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, any Metamagic feat, and Intimidate as a Class Skill.

Requires either ignoring the specific order of leveling up (which almost no one pays attention to, but is RAW), or being a Focused Enchanter (err... yeah, about that...), but hell, a Focused Enchanter's a hell of a lot better than a Commoner.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-06, 12:05 AM
there are some nice paragon class levels to take at level 2, especially the Drow one after taking a level of wizard

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 12:11 AM
Does character level take into account ECL or class levels + RHD only? I thought it was the latter, so your leadership score doesn't take into account LA, but I'm not quite sure on that.Most references for monster characters say total hit dice, which is just RHD+Character Class levels, and I guess a strict interpretation would say that only character class levels are "class levels", but either way, LA isn't counted there. ECL != character level, so this wouldn't work, in my opinion.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-06, 12:30 AM
It says "Character Level 6th", and ECL is "Effective Character Level". If it said "Hit Dice" or "Class Levels", I'd agree with you, but it doesn't say those things, it says "Character Level". Especially considering the existence of the terms "Hit Dice" and "Class Levels", I'm inclined to believe that LA counts.

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 12:36 AM
It says "Character Level 6th", and ECL is "Effective Character Level". If it said "Hit Dice" or "Class Levels", I'd agree with you, but it doesn't say those things, it says "Character Level". Especially considering the existence of the terms "Hit Dice" and "Class Levels", I'm inclined to believe that LA counts.Since he's pulling it as a bonus feat somehow, I'm not worried about the 6th level prereq, I was alluding to the actual calculation of the score:

Leadership Score

A character’s base Leadership score equals his level plus any Charisma modifier. In order to take into account negative Charisma modifiers, this table allows for very low Leadership scores, but the character must still be 6th level or higher in order to gain the Leadership feat. Outside factors can affect a character’s Leadership score, as detailed above.

And interpreting that "effective character level" is not the same as having a character level that high. I can see the arguments for them being identical for this purpose, but I am just saying how I'd rule/interpret it.

Admittedly that's all hypothetical since I don't allow leadership in the first place, but that's neither here nor there.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-06, 12:52 AM
Leadership requires ECL 6 or above to function, as the idea is that the PC is now reputable enough to attract followers. Even if granted as a bonus feat, it wouldn't come into effect until you reached ECL 6.

PId6
2010-07-06, 01:01 AM
Leadership requires ECL 6 or above to function, as the idea is that the PC is now reputable enough to attract followers. Even if granted as a bonus feat, it wouldn't come into effect until you reached ECL 6.
Depends. Most racial bonus feats explicitly let you ignore prereqs, and Leadership itself only cares about your Leadership score.

Morithias
2010-07-06, 02:25 AM
If I recall correctly, bonus feats ignore requirements unless stated otherwise.

Furthermore, I don't care about how "good" this class is, the point of this build was that your first hit die was a prestige class without any 'rule 0' use.

*shrugs* I just thought it was a nice experiment.

PId6
2010-07-06, 02:35 AM
If I recall correctly, bonus feats ignore requirements unless stated otherwise.
That's true of monster racial bonus feats (so it might translate over to template bonus feats too). Definitely not true of classes though.

The Cat Goddess
2010-07-06, 03:02 AM
That's true of monster racial bonus feats (so it might translate over to template bonus feats too). Definitely not true of classes though.

Wuh?

You mean, the parts in the Ranger Class Description that say that the Ranger gets (Feat-X) even if they don't meet the pre-reqs?

PId6
2010-07-06, 03:17 AM
Wuh?

You mean, the parts in the Ranger Class Description that say that the Ranger gets (Feat-X) even if they don't meet the pre-reqs?
I mean the part where the rogue doesn't get to pick his favorite epic feat at 10th level.

If it specifically says it ignores prereqs, then it ignores prereqs, but most bonus feats don't default to that state.

JaronK
2010-07-06, 03:36 AM
Sorry, but the Leadership feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#leadership) requires character level 6 as a prerequisite.

Edit: Wait, you're getting it as a bonus feat? That might do it, though I'm not familiar with that template.

Racial Bonus Feats do not require prerequisites, as per the Monster Manual. Note that in the Player's Handbook in the feats section, it says feats gained from leveling and class bonus feats require prerequisites, but it doesn't mention racial bonus feats.

The appropriate references are to be found in the Players Handbook at the very beginning of the feats section, and in two places in the Monster Manual (note that both entries in the Monster Manual are discussing racial/creature abilities only).

JaronK

Morithias
2010-07-06, 04:36 AM
My question is what the point of giving a LA +3 template a feat that you couldn't use to level 6 is in the first place. Due to the way this build revolves around using morale bonuses, I literally get nothing out of the template besides the leadership feat and +4 cha, if I didn't get the leadership feat it would be better just to level dip a BARD level. Maybe with swapping out Human for aasimar.

Theodoxus
2010-07-06, 10:54 AM
Leadership Score

A character’s base Leadership score equals his level plus any Charisma modifier. In order to take into account negative Charisma modifiers, this table allows for very low Leadership scores, but the character must still be 6th level or higher in order to gain the Leadership feat. Outside factors can affect a character’s Leadership score, as detailed above.

To me, the bolded section just implies that the template written in Dragon is either broken (if it's a level 1 template) or needs additional information if it's an acquired template. As a DM I'd rule you could have the feat, but it won't become operational until you gain ECL 6. So, for qualifying for the PrC, no prob. For having cohorts... not yet.

Scarey Nerd
2010-07-06, 10:56 AM
To me, the bolded section just implies that the template written in Dragon is either broken (if it's a level 1 template) or needs additional information if it's an acquired template. As a DM I'd rule you could have the feat, but it won't become operational until you gain ECL 6. So, for qualifying for the PrC, no prob. For having cohorts... not yet.

However, if you have the feat but not the prerequisites, surely if it doesn't specifically say that you can use it without the prereqs, you can't use it in any way, even just for qualifying for a PrC, because you technically can't have it.

dextercorvia
2010-07-06, 01:12 PM
However, if you have the feat but not the prerequisites, surely if it doesn't specifically say that you can use it without the prereqs, you can't use it in any way, even just for qualifying for a PrC, because you technically can't have it.


A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.
I would argue that you don't use a feat to qualify for a PrC. The requirements are simply Feat: X, not 'must be able to use the feat X' You still have the feat if you don't have the prereq's for the feat, and the PrC simply requires possession of the feat.

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 02:16 PM
I would argue that you don't use a feat to qualify for a PrC. The requirements are simply Feat: X, not 'must be able to use the feat X' You still have the feat if you don't have the prereq's for the feat, and the PrC simply requires possession of the feat.Well the PrC in question requires a specific leadership score, not just the Leadership feat, so being a null feat does potentially come into play.

Morph Bark
2010-07-06, 03:23 PM
Well the PrC in question requires a specific leadership score, not just the Leadership feat, so being a null feat does potentially come into play.

Considering the feat itself says it requires level 6, and yet the template gives it as a bonus feat to an ECL 4 character (level 1, +3 LA), I would say that whether or not you rule that the followers and cohorts aren't granted until you reach level 6 (would that be 6 HD or 6 ECL?), they still have a Leadership score.

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 04:33 PM
Considering the feat itself says it requires level 6, and yet the template gives it as a bonus feat to an ECL 4 character (level 1, +3 LA), I would say that whether or not you rule that the followers and cohorts aren't granted until you reach level 6 (would that be 6 HD or 6 ECL?), they still have a Leadership score.It depends on the wording of the template which dragon mag is notoriously bad for. If you can't use the feat, then you don't have any of the benefits of it, which includes the score. :smalltongue:

Morithias
2010-07-07, 03:50 AM
The wording for the feat is as followed.

"Feats: A fire-souled creature gains the leadership feat as a bonus feat. If the fire-souled creature already has the Leadership feat, it gains a +2 bonus to its leadership score."

Edit: The "fires-souled" is an acquired template that can be added to any creature with an intelligence of 3 or more. A fire-souled creature has all the base creature's statistics and abilities except as noted here.

Amphetryon
2010-07-07, 05:52 AM
It's a neat trick, gets you Leadership a bit early, but : 1) it's not really 1st level, since you get in at ECL 4, which you can do with a few other PrCs, and 2) it requires both Dragon Magazine and the Leadership Feat, two of the more commonly banned sources in WotC's official material.