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HunterOfJello
2010-07-06, 12:12 AM
I noticed that in Pathfinder, the spellcasting classes can cast an unlimited number of 0 level spells per day. I thought this was a cool idea and am considering implementing it in my 3.5e game.


Along with the change I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Has anyone else used this method in a 3.5e game and are there any other spells I should restrict or things I should watch out for?

Endarire
2010-07-06, 12:15 AM
With cure minor at will, we can heal to full between fights given ample time. When each party member requires 5+ minutes to heal, other healing sources become more appealing.

Prodan
2010-07-06, 12:15 AM
Create Water?

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 12:18 AM
I'd arcane mark everything.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-06, 12:42 AM
In my group you simply don't have to prepare 0 level spells they aren't unlimited but considered of such minor importance it doesn't matter.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-06, 12:50 AM
Detect magic at will can up WBL.

Another_Poet
2010-07-06, 01:13 AM
I noticed that in Pathfinder, the spellcasting classes can cast an unlimited number of 0 level spells per day.

Not anymore, I believe that was just in the beta. Though my group still does it anyway as a house rule.


I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Has anyone else used this method in a 3.5e game and are there any other spells I should restrict or things I should watch out for?

No, you should be fine. Just remember....

1) Ongoing Detect Magic requires concentration, and even if concentrating, only alerts to the presence or absence of auras in the first round that you come into range of an aura. Your players will probably want to abuse constant Detect Magic but it's actually pretty tame.

2) I suggest that magic traps do not give off magic auras because they are intentionally hidden. So unlimited detect magic does not replace the rogue.

3) When the party decides to stand back while the wizard uses unlimited acid splash to remove a locked door or other feature, just remember.... objects apply their hardness against acid. 1d3 cannot damage most objects.

ap

IonDragon
2010-07-06, 01:40 AM
I would cast Resistance every minute while walking. See, you're only taking one move action a round while walking or you would be hustling and become tired.

KnightOfV
2010-07-06, 02:00 AM
Along with the change I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Has anyone else used this method in a 3.5e game and are there any other spells I should restrict or things I should watch out for?

Pathfinder already changed the cure and inflict cantrips for balance. Cure minor now only stabilizes a dying character (no hp is restored). Inflict makes a stabilized character at 0 hp or lower start bleeding to death again. Not really abusable in that form.

You can cast Resistance over and over as IonDragon suggested for a (almost) permanent +1 to saves, but remember the bonus does not stack with Cloaks of resistance and casters will usually rather have something else prepared. (light, prestidigitate, detect magic, mage hand, etc)

I think the infinite cantrips thing was a good move overall, always hated keeping track of 0 level mostly flavor stuff.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-07-06, 02:36 AM
Not anymore, I believe that was just in the beta. Though my group still does it anyway as a house rule.

ap
Sorry, it still does. It made it into the Core Rules book.

We're in the process of making a spell list for a PF-derived E6 game - we've dropped the Cure Minor Wounds spell in favour of "Stabilise".

Morph Bark
2010-07-06, 05:13 AM
In my group you simply don't have to prepare 0 level spells they aren't unlimited but considered of such minor importance it doesn't matter.

This sounds like a good way to do it. Sort of a middle ground. Or you could make every level 0 spell castable 3 times per day for free, but no more, as if you were using spell points for them.

J.Gellert
2010-07-06, 05:31 AM
We haven't kept track of cantrips in our games for years. Often it was just ignored, other times we house-ruled it.

Goosegg
2010-07-06, 12:05 PM
Detect magic can also be fooled with a magic aura spell.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-06, 12:39 PM
Infinite cantrips are useful, but once you take Sanctum Spell, you get infinite 1st level spells too. Possibly even higher ones with Arcane Thesis, and Incantatrix.

Personally, if one of my players did this I'd commend them, and then throw out a Dragon with the same trick.

AvatarZero
2010-07-06, 12:43 PM
Sorry, it still does. It made it into the Core Rules book..

There was a change between the beta and the published version; in the beta, cantrips were considered spell-like abilities instead of spells with infinite uses per day. The difference there is that spell-like abilities don't have components, so you could use Ghost Sound, Mage Hand or Prestidigitation without giving away that you were casting a spell. I miss that; I perenially play arcane thief types (Arcane Trickster, Unseen Seer, Beguiler, Spellthief) so that was really interesting.

ninjaneer003
2010-07-06, 12:50 PM
Infinite Prestidigitation...so much fun

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 12:53 PM
Infinite Prestidigitation...so much fun

I usually have my noncasters buy a permanency prestidigitation just so I can always have appropriate wind rustling my hair when I do dynamic / dramatic entrances. Or spilling someone else's drink.
Or dye their pants.
Or making the cleric's food taste like ogre piss because he didn't heal me.

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 01:55 PM
Along with the change I would remove the level 0 Repair, Cure and Inflict spells.

Those would only really be useful at low levels anyway. As after that you're spending enough time healing that it's begging for any surviving enemies in the area to pull anti-rope trick tactics while the party is still out in the open.

So it only effects levels, what, 1-3, maybe just 1-2.

To avoid the sanctum spell and arcane thesis thing, it would require a simple ruling that it's actual cantrips, not things that are effectively 0th level. Or heck, just meta-magic getting anywhere near cantrips makes them take up at least a 1st level slot.

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-06, 02:02 PM
Hmm... Infinite caltrops, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Presta, stick and Create Water? Yes please!

Dracons
2010-07-06, 02:11 PM
Hmm... Infinite caltrops, Launch Bolt, Launch Item, Presta, stick and Create Water? Yes please!

Ohh infinite caltrops... Yawn.

Launch Bolt? So a wizard can use a crossbow bolt, for one action. Fine.

Create Water can be changed to it only makes a gallon of water per casting. You really want to spend several minutes to get several gallons, go ahead.

Neer heard of Presta, and Stick. Where are they?

EvilJoe15
2010-07-06, 02:13 PM
A wizard can launch Infinite Colossal Bolts with an action.

jiriku
2010-07-06, 02:21 PM
Except that a wizard cannot carry infinite colossal bolts. And if one goes through shenanigans involving magical gear or higher-level spells to do so, then the bolt-launching option now involves a resource expenditure, neh?

EvilJoe15
2010-07-06, 02:22 PM
Eschew Materials.

arguskos
2010-07-06, 02:23 PM
Presta=shorthand for Prestidigitation.
Stick is a cantrip from Spell Compendium that does precisely what you think it does: sticks stuff to other stuff. :smalltongue: It's like glue, the spell.

As for infinite cantrips, yeah, it's not really a balance issue. Hell, I petition every DM I every play under for that rule, since I love me some cantrips. Everyone here who hates cantrips or never uses them makes me :smallfrown:. Cantrips are the best thing ever. I'd love to play in E6 with a custom class that just gets hordes and hordes of cantrips, including lots of custom ones. I love cantrips and reserve feats just that much.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 02:24 PM
Launch Item
Target: One fine item weighing up to 10lb.

jiriku
2010-07-06, 02:24 PM
And then you're launching...what exactly?

EvilJoe15
2010-07-06, 02:26 PM
Launch Bolt
Material Component: The crossbow
bolt to be fired (1 sp)

arguskos
2010-07-06, 02:27 PM
Launch Item
Target: One fine item weighing up to 10lb.
I swear to god, if you seriously start with the "colossal crossbow bolts are Fine-sized" I will punch someone. :smallsigh:

Also, Launch Item is great for throwing explosives, moltov-cocktails, and alchemist's fire/acid.

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 02:27 PM
Those would only really be useful at low levels anyway. As after that you're spending enough time healing that it's begging for any surviving enemies in the area to pull anti-rope trick tactics while the party is still out in the open.

So it only effects levels, what, 1-3, maybe just 1-2.

To avoid the sanctum spell and arcane thesis thing, it would require a simple ruling that it's actual cantrips, not things that are effectively 0th level. Or heck, just meta-magic getting anywhere near cantrips makes them take up at least a 1st level slot.Arcane thesis can't drop things below their original spell level anyway, so it's only sanctum spell that's an issue. My take would simply to remove 0th level spells from the game and all your cantrips effectively become SLAs like invocations.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 02:27 PM
And then you're launching...what exactly?

Nothing. The only component is somatic. And it still takes a standard action to cast it. So you can't hurl "infinite colossal bolts".
you can't hurl "one colossal bolt"
nor "infinite diminutive bolts".

it's "one fine item weighing up to 10lb". And you can't eschew it, and you use a standard action to cast it.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-06, 02:28 PM
Create Water can be changed to it only makes a gallon of water per casting. You really want to spend several minutes to get several gallons, go ahead.

I have a druid in a Pathfinder game. He uses create water as a waterboarding interrogation technique.

Another_Poet
2010-07-06, 02:41 PM
In about 18 months of playing PF at high and low levels I have yet to see any problems emerge from infinite Resistance, infinite Guidance or infinite Create Water.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 02:42 PM
In about 18 months of playing PF at high and low levels I have yet to see any problems emerge from infinite Resistance, infinite Guidance or infinite Create Water.

And awesome amounts of awesome awesomesauce from infinite prestidigitation. Nothing feels better than kicking into the Tavern, do your badass boast and have your hair rustle to an inexistent wind.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-06, 03:30 PM
I see one problem. One can arcane thisis acid splash. Take felldrain, practical metamagic that. Now you have a level 0 spell that deals a negative level as a touch attack, no save. Cast that all day and drive your DM crazy and ensure that you see nothing but undead for the rest of the game.

Now mind you, this isn't any worse than the 1d2 crusader or any number of tricks that you can do. A good DM will just throw a book at you.

I'd premptivly say that you have unlimited 0th level spells with no metamagic. That would prevent a magic user from a lot of abuses. Let them metamagic it like normal, but any level 0 spell metamagiced will at least use a lv 1 slot.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 03:34 PM
I see one problem. One can arcane thisis acid splash. Take felldrain, practical metamagic that. Now you have a level 0 spell that deals a negative level as a touch attack, no save. Cast that all day and drive your DM crazy and ensure that you see nothing but undead for the rest of the game.

Now mind you, this isn't any worse than the 1d2 crusader or any number of tricks that you can do. A good DM will just throw a book at you.

I'd premptivly say that you have unlimited 0th level spells with no metamagic. That would prevent a magic user from a lot of abuses. Let them metamagic it like normal, but any level 0 spell metamagiced will at least use a lv 1 slot.

Can practical metamagic drop below +1?
And if it can, the solution is simple: You can't meta cantrips without making them one-use.

subject42
2010-07-06, 03:36 PM
2) I suggest that magic traps do not give off magic auras because they are intentionally hidden. So unlimited detect magic does not replace the rogue.

3) When the party decides to stand back while the wizard uses unlimited acid splash to remove a locked door or other feature, just remember.... objects apply their hardness against acid. 1d3 cannot damage most objects.

ap

The magic traps thing is almost a necessity. Given that the PF core book says that only Rogues can detect magical traps, it seems like that may have been the designer's intent, as well.

Did PF change the hardness rules for acid damage? I thought that Acid and sonic had special hardness rules.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 03:38 PM
The magic traps thing is almost a necessity. Given that the PF core book says that only Rogues can detect magical traps, it seems like that may have been the designer's intent, as well.

Did PF change the hardness rules for acid damage? I thought that Acid and sonic had special hardness rules.

No, it's about the 1/2 1/4 damage from fire/cold/whatever energy. Acid and Sonic ignore that "percentual immunity", not hardness.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-06, 03:45 PM
Practical Metamagic makes felldrain a +1 spell level metamagic. It cannot drop the cost further, or else you could have an unlimited amount of level drain per spell. Arcane thisis allows you to decresse the level ajustment of metamagic on a spell by one. This brings you back to zero, so long as you have only one aplication of felldrain. A second would have you at level 1 again. Though still, a level one spell that casues 2 negative levels is powerful. That is the average of a enveneration spell.

dextercorvia
2010-07-06, 03:47 PM
Practical Metamagic makes felldrain a +1 spell level metamagic. It cannot drop the cost further, or else you could have an unlimited amount of level drain per spell. Arcane thisis allows you to decresse the level ajustment of metamagic on a spell by one. This brings you back to zero, so long as you have only one aplication of felldrain. A second would have you at level 1 again. Though still, a level one spell that casues 2 negative levels is powerful. That is the average of a enveneration spell.

Except you can't stack the same metamagic on a spell twice.

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-06, 03:50 PM
And then you're launching...what exactly?

Sawdust. flour. peanut dust. get a cloud going and then flick a match into it.

Needles coated with poison. Eggshell grenades. Thunderstones. Blast discs. Rune Books.Vials of Black Sand.

I too am a fan of cantrips. I wish they'd nave got more attention.

subject42
2010-07-06, 03:53 PM
No, it's about the 1/2 1/4 damage from fire/cold/whatever energy. Acid and Sonic ignore that "percentual immunity", not hardness.

That's really good to know. Is that in the PF Core Book somewhere?

Oh man, my DM is going to have a conniption when I tell him about this.

(Acid and badgers can make short work of a dungeon if that rule doesn't come into play).

Ashram
2010-07-06, 03:57 PM
I have a feeling the infinite cantrip/orison thing came about so that casters wouldn't become absolutely useless by the end of the day once their spells were gone.

dextercorvia
2010-07-06, 04:00 PM
I see one problem. One can arcane thisis acid splash. Take felldrain, practical metamagic that. Now you have a level 0 spell that deals a negative level as a touch attack, no save. Cast that all day and drive your DM crazy and ensure that you see nothing but undead for the rest of the game.

Also works with Sonic Snap. Upside: Auto damage, thus negative level. Downside: SR: Yes.

Edit: I just realized you are doing this with Practical Metamagic. You can't set that up (with Arcane Thesis) until 9th level. By then you should have much better things to do than a spammable 1 negative level attack. With Easy Metamagic, you could accomplish this at level 6. It might be okay for a level or two then.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-06, 04:13 PM
Can someone point me in the direction of the no more than one aplication of a metamagic feat on a spell rule?

ericgrau
2010-07-06, 04:16 PM
Even detect magic can get crazy, as pointed out. I'd throw level 0 wands in the party's treasure instead and/or make them readily available in town. Heck maybe even some half charged wands. At 375 gp a pop they are quite affordable and are practically unlimited for 98% of purposes. The other 2% are the abusive ones.

olentu
2010-07-06, 04:23 PM
Can someone point me in the direction of the no more than one aplication of a metamagic feat on a spell rule?

PHB page 88 under multiple metamagic feats on a spell.

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 04:38 PM
PHB page 88 under multiple metamagic feats on a spell.Also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats). :smallsmile:


Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell

A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-06, 05:26 PM
Even detect magic can get crazy, as pointed out. I'd throw level 0 wands in the party's treasure instead and/or make them readily available in town. Heck maybe even some half charged wands. At 375 gp a pop they are quite affordable and are practically unlimited for 98% of purposes. The other 2% are the abusive ones.

I tried encouraging this, but my players are kinda stupid.

Paul H
2010-07-06, 05:39 PM
Hi

It's not quite unlimited used of Orisons/Cantrips, it's unlimited uses of a limited amount of them.....

Spontaneous Casters know only a few Cantrips/Orisons - they can cast them at will.

casters who prepare ahead of time can only choose a few selected from those they know.

Guidance is the most powerful I've found so far. SKill check? Guidance. Daily save vs Disease? Guidance, etc.

Off Topic:
Rogues have 'Talents' every even level. (When they don't get extra Sneak Attack damage). One grants uses of a Cantrip as SLA, which is the prereq of another granting a 1st lvl spell. Detect Magic & Shield few times a day as pure Rogue?

Thanks
Paul H

Rothen
2010-07-06, 05:44 PM
I see one problem. One can arcane thisis acid splash. Take felldrain, practical metamagic that.


Wait, metamagic reducers can break D&D?
This is news to me!

QuantumSteve
2010-07-06, 06:36 PM
Using detect magic to find magic traps is an awesome use of the spell. It doesn't work nearly as good as you think, however.
First, it requires concentration. You have to use up a standard action every round. Which means your hustling. So no good for overland travel.
Second, it only detects the "presence" of magic in a 30' cone. So unless the wizard takes point, Fightgar's sword would foil his spell. (Unless the wizard stops for 3 rounds every 30') Furthermore, if he can see any of his own magic items they would foil the spell as well.
And a thin sheet of lead would block detect magic, but wouldn't, necessarily, interfere with the trap.

Baalthazaq
2010-07-06, 07:22 PM
Erm, do you have any idea how much I have broken D&D with Cityscape, WuJen, and Force Missle Mage?

All my missiles were still, silent, and invisible. I could do 250 damage per round. I could at will make them visible, and appear to be coming from anyone, or anywhere. I broke through most magical protections, and resistances. I didn't need to roll to hit. I could do this for 30 rounds for a total of around 4500 damage. All while sitting at the bar, drinking my tea.

I can make a fighter with 10 attacks per round with wounding brilliant energy weapons with full BAB.

I can make a Barbarian do 300 damage per charge attack. With that build I've done over 70 damage at level 3 in a single hit.

I once made a character who could teleport as an: Immediate Action, Swift Action, Move Action, and Standard action. Pretty much at will.

I once had a character with a modifier of +23 to Hide skills. He was level 3.

Infinite cantrips, are not a problem.
Any acid resistance will protect against it, as will death ward, undead, etc.
So long as the DM looks out for abuse, which he should be doing all the time, it will be fine.