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SuperCracker
2010-07-06, 12:15 AM
Is tripping useful without a reach weapon?

Also, would a +23 to trip at 11th level (pre-enlargement) be doable enough to consistently trip opponents?

I'm on the fence.

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 12:27 AM
Well, it's a melee debuff, and with the feat that makes it ok to use against a foe that can reach you, it's only a waste of an attack if you fail the strength check to trip 'em in the first place. Since you shouldn't fail the touch attack and once they're on the ground they've got a minus to their AC and ability to attack while prone.

It's most optimal of course, to just be able to trip everyone as they come close so that you're surrounded by proned/dead enemies when you start your next turn.

If you're getting the prereq for Improved Trip anyway, or are a barbarian and can swing the wolf totem, yeah, I'd say it's worth it.

If you'd have to give up something essential to your build, then, no it isn't.

So, what are you going to do if you're not going to be a reach tripper?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-06, 12:41 AM
I find it useful against casters, especially in conjunction with the mage slayer feat. If your not using a reach weapon it can be more important as your ability to pin down a character is more limited.
So its still useful with a non-reach weapon but simply better with reach.

Math_Mage
2010-07-06, 02:41 AM
I find it useful against casters, especially in conjunction with the mage slayer feat. If your not using a reach weapon it can be more important as your ability to pin down a character is more limited.
So its still useful with a non-reach weapon but simply better with reach.

Reach is very, very, very important for making the trip attack worthwhile against casters, though. Reach prevents them from taking a 5-ft-step and then casting. Reach prevents them from using Swift Expeditious Retreat and Withdrawing. And so on.

(Of course, dipping for Thicket of Blades solves this problem.)

Wait...maybe I see your point. If the character gets the first attack, he can Trip and then doesn't have to worry about 5-ft-steps and so on. Ok, then.

AslanCross
2010-07-06, 02:48 AM
IMO, tripping without a reach weapon can be useful if you use the Setting Sun throws from Tome of Battle. Apart from that, though, I'm not so sure. The idea behind a tripper melee fighter is that it gives melee a battlefield control edge. Tripping this that are right beside you, not really

Of course, you could always use the Jack-B-Quick tripper build, which is the only non-TOB, non-reach weapon tripper I know of. It's more of an AOO machine that happens to trip, but I guess any extra actions the opponent has to take slow him down.

PId6
2010-07-06, 03:40 AM
Wait...maybe I see your point. If the character gets the first attack, he can Trip and then doesn't have to worry about 5-ft-steps and so on. Ok, then.
Well, they can still crawl away, eat the AoO, then cast their world-shattering enchantments. Or stand up, take a hit, 5-ft step, then cast. You really do need reach to disable casters. Or Thicket of Blades. Or better yet both.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:20 AM
Edit: Misread OP

Curmudgeon
2010-07-06, 05:15 AM
Tripping, with or without reach, does nothing much against spellcasters. They can cast most spells on the ground. It's only touch attacks that are impaired by the hindered movement.

Where tripping really shines is against mobility-focused melee combatants (especially chargers) and archers. Deny a full round action and you've drastically reduced their power.

Ruinix
2010-07-06, 07:48 AM
it also very effective if u have on ur party a roguish PC since be prone denny the dex to AC so SA would apply.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-06, 07:49 AM
be prone denny the dex to AC so SA would apply.
No, that's not true.
Prone

The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. There's no denial of DEX bonus to AC.

Runestar
2010-07-06, 07:50 AM
it also very effective if u have on ur party a roguish PC since be prone denny the dex to AC so SA would apply.

Being prone does not deny you your dex bonus.

Person_Man
2010-07-06, 08:56 AM
Is tripping useful without a reach weapon?

No. The main benefit of Trip is that it keeps Medium or smaller enemies without reach from attacking you in melee. If you've chosen to use a Trip build, take Knock-Down and Combat Reflexes, and use a reach weapon. Then move on to another combo, because builds that focus exclusively on Trip are very limited.

Ashiel
2010-07-06, 09:54 AM
Against humanoid opponents, probably.

Against monsters; I don't really think so.

You can resist a trip with Strength or Dex (whichever is highest), you get a +4 bonus for each size category above medium, you get a +4 bonus if you have more than two legs. So that basically discounts a huge number of creatures you're likely to encounter; including many fantasy staples such as hydras, manticore, chimeras, dragons, most animals, dire animals, several outsider and celestial/fiendish versions of the former, and anything bigger than you.

And when I say "bigger than you", it usually comes with a higher strength score. So using an Ogre as an example, an Ogre has a +10 racial modifier to strength, and a +4 size modifier. So by default a basic ogre has a +9 for tripping, which you can match IF you have Improved Trip and a strength of 20; and you could enlarge yourself via Enlarge Person to tip it in your advantage by 6 points; so if you're really optimized, you can trip that ogre; but you're a really high strength score, 2 feats, and a spell buff in to do it.

Now if that ogre NPC is a trained warrior, he might be using the non-elite or elite arrays which would tip it +1-2 points in his favor again, negating the benefit for your enlarge person spell; if he were a special NPC (say a boss), he might be even stronger after his own equipment and feats (an ogre with gauntlets of ogre strength, or with a potion of bull's strength, or whatever).

Now comparing to a riding dog. He's got a +6 to resist a trip just by virtue of four legs, and a +2 strength bonus. A black bear (the medium sized CR 2 bears) have a +8. A brown bear has a +16 at CR 4; which is nearly impossible to beat reliably; and if he gets a hold on you, you are probably going to be mauled.

That Being Said...
If you can get a lot of backing from your party, then you can make it work, and work effectively. A well placed ray of enfeeblement can soften enemies up for you, as can the aforementioned enlarge person and maybe bull's strength spells help you out. Later if your mage decides to cast polymorph on you, then you can gain all those nice tripping bonuses your enemies normally get that you don't (since you keep your feats / BAB / etc while polymorphed).

Also, tripping is surprisingly effective vs Airborn enemies, because it makes them fall down. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 11:30 AM
Only against things that use limbs for locomotion while flying. You can't trip a beholder, for instance, or an air elemental, but you could trip a dragon (good luck!).

Tripping a flyer induces a stall, which is generally game over for most huge + sized flyers due to their rather clumsy mobility class and lowish reflex saves. You just gotta beat that one check though, which is really tough.

Optimystik
2010-07-06, 11:37 AM
Only against things that use limbs for locomotion while flying. You can't trip a beholder, for instance, or an air elemental, but you could trip a dragon (good luck!).

Tripping a flyer induces a stall, which is generally game over for most huge + sized flyers due to their rather clumsy mobility class and lowish reflex saves. You just gotta beat that one check though, which is really tough.

Howling Chain! [evil laugh]

SuperCracker
2010-07-06, 12:02 PM
@ Ashiel

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The best trip check I can get right now without enlarge size is +23. With large size it's +27.

This is at level 11, in a party of 5 level 11 characters.

Based on the creatures/foes we are likely to encounter, will tripping succeed often enough to be worthwhile to devote resources to, or should I focus on direct hp damage?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-06, 12:02 PM
Well, they can still crawl away, eat the AoO, then cast their world-shattering enchantments. Or stand up, take a hit, 5-ft step, then cast. You really do need reach to disable casters. Or Thicket of Blades. Or better yet both.

Wrong on so many levels, first if they stand up they provoke an AoO which can be another trip attempt sending them back to the ground. If you try to crawl away same problem, you get tripped and knocked flat to the ground again. If you can trip a dog you can trip a guy on all fours.

Is best with reach but still doable without.

When you consider he's talking about his trip bonus pre-enlargement that tells me he has a reliable and consistent way to become large sized. Which means he'll have reach so its kinda moot.


Only against things that use limbs for locomotion while flying. You can't trip a beholder, for instance, or an air elemental, but you could trip a dragon (good luck!).

Tripping a flyer induces a stall, which is generally game over for most huge + sized flyers due to their rather clumsy mobility class and lowish reflex saves. You just gotta beat that one check though, which is really tough.

I tripped a dragon once, the wizard used dimension door to bring me above the dragon, took my spiked chain and snagged him down.
Granted I was a weretiger with enlarge person cast on me, still it was awesome.

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 12:20 PM
Wrong on so many levels, first if they stand up they provoke an AoO which can be another trip attempt sending them back to the ground. If you try to crawl away same problem, you get tripped and knocked flat to the ground again. If you can trip a dog you can trip a guy on all fours.
No. Wrong. You can't trip a prone person without a houserule. Also, the AoO's happen immediately prior to the action that triggers them. Standing up is what provokes, so the person hasn't yet stood up when the attack occurs. Thus, they are still prone. You could ready an attack to trip them AFTER they've stood back up, but the AoO itself won't work. This has been debated at GREAT lengths before, if you do a bit of googling around. The only way to prevent a person from crawling away would be Standstill. Still, crawling 5' is a full round action that provokes, so it would be a rather fruitless endevor. A smart wizard would cast a Quickened Benign Transposition (doesn't provoke) to swap places with his bodyguard who was delaying his action and now full attacks your face off.


Granted I was a weretiger with enlarge person cast on me, still it was awesome.
Are weretigers even legal targets for EP, from a creature type PoV? Even if they are, hybred form would change your size (IIRC), and thus wouldn't stack with EP, since multiple effects that change your size never stack. Just sayin...

Curmudgeon
2010-07-06, 12:34 PM
Still, crawling 5' is a full round action that provokes, so it would be a rather fruitless endevor.

Crawling

You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. The tripped spellcaster will take an AoO anyway, but can still crawl 5', stand up, and then cast their standard action spell.

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 12:43 PM
Eh, my bad on the full round thing, mis-remembered...but where are you getting all those extra actions?

Crawl 5' - move action per your citation
Stand up - move equivalent action (traded down from Standard)
Cast spell - ...

Unless its a swift action spell, you are out of actions. If it IS a swift action spell, well, those never provoke, so you wouldn't have to move 5' and suck up the AoO from moving to do it. You couldn't even take a 5' step, as crawling 5' counts as movement in a turn, and you can only take one if you haven't moved.

Now, if you stood up, sucked up the AoO, THEN took a 5' step, THEN cast your standard action spell, you'd be fine. Alternatively, you could crawl 5', then if your foe doesn't threaten you, cast a standard action spell from prone. Nothing says you can't cast from prone just like you can cast from standing.

Math_Mage
2010-07-06, 12:48 PM
The tripped spellcaster will take an AoO anyway, but can still crawl 5', stand up, and then cast their standard action spell.

Point of order: standing up is another move action. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2010-07-06, 01:34 PM
Point of order: standing up is another move action. :smalltongue:
Sorry about that. I've played so many Rogues that I take for granted making a DC 35 Tumble check to stand up as a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#tumble). But that's actually not required for the spellcaster, since they can crawl the 5' and still cast most of their spells while prone. Standing up as a free action just proves that you can't keep a good Rogue down. :smallcool:

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 02:14 PM
Also, tripping is surprisingly effective vs Airborn enemies, because it makes them fall down. :smallbiggrin:

I love that. First time my party appreciated my rogue/fighter for something other than busting them out of prison was when I tripped a manticore out of the sky and solo'd it out of the fight while they took care of the minotaur it was supporting.

ericgrau
2010-07-06, 04:27 PM
It's worth it if most of your opponents have legs and are large or smaller.

Ashiel
2010-07-06, 05:45 PM
@ Ashiel

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The best trip check I can get right now without enlarge size is +23. With large size it's +27.

This is at level 11, in a party of 5 level 11 characters.

Based on the creatures/foes we are likely to encounter, will tripping succeed often enough to be worthwhile to devote resources to, or should I focus on direct hp damage?

Firstly, I wanted to ask what sort of trip check are we talking here? By my estimation, assuming medium size -> enlarged that would be +5 (+4 size mod, +1 from strength bonus), +4 from improved trip, and then strength, which by 11th level shouldn't really be any higher than +8 (assuming 22 base as an orc, +2 from levels, and +4 from enhancement); bringing it to +17; so where's the extra 10 coming from?

EDIT: Because your BAB doesn't apply to trip attempts in 3.5; though if you're using Pathfinder rules then you're making a Trip combat maneuver check; so if you can clarify which you're dealing with.

3.5 uses a Touch attack (which does benefit from BAB), followed by an strength check opposed by your target's strength or dex; applying any relevant modifiers. Trip Rules for Convenience (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip).

SuperCracker
2010-07-06, 06:03 PM
Yeah, that was my screw-up. Added BAB.

Str 6 + Improved Trip 4 + Armbands of Might 2

12

Escheton
2010-07-06, 07:01 PM
Get curling wave strike from Stormscape.
It allows you to trade in your follow-up attack with a new trip against another foe in reach.

And multiple foes make this type of lockdown difficult otherwise.
Do keep in mind this would not work when using knowdown as you forfeit your followup attack there.

Ashiel
2010-07-06, 07:08 PM
Yeah, that was my screw-up. Added BAB.

Str 6 + Improved Trip 4 + Armbands of Might 2

12

Ok, that sounds more like it. :smalltongue:

Here's a quick rundown on stuff you might see at those levels; both on the low-end as mooks or minions, and some stuff that might be a strong guy with a few mooks. All numbers assume no buffs and no feats.

Manticore, CR 5, +13 to resist.
Mummy, CR 5, +7 to resist.
Hill Giant, CR 7, +11 to resist.
Gorgon, CR 8, +13 to resist.
Hydra, 5-12 headed, CR 4-11, +16 to 19 to resist.
Chimera, CR 7, +12 to resist.
Large Air Elemental, CR 5, +11 to resist.
Huge Air Elemental, CR 7, +17 to resist.
Greater Air Elemental, CR 9, +18 to resist.
Elder Air Elemental, CR 11, +19 to resist.
Large Earth Elemental, CR 5, +11 to resist.
Huge Earth Elemental, CR 7, +17 to resist.
Greater Earth Elemental, CR 9, +18 to resist.
Elder Earth Elemental, CR 9, +19 to resist.

Quick Pause
Ok, so far we've not really scratched much of the SRD; but you're probably noticing a trend here. You'll notice that a lot of monsters that are 1/2 your CR or less have comparable modifiers; while some that are up to a standard (fairly easy) encounter are sporting a lot more resistance than your offense; and it's also assuming that they are un-buffed and without feats.

I've not even gotten to CRs greater than your level, and you're already getting surpassed based on size, brute strength or dexterity, and stabilization. Do I think tripping is good? Sure; in the right situations; but I don't think you should over-specialize in it.

If you've got power attack for damage, combat reflexes, and stand-still, you can dish out some solid damage, or hold ground against creatures that are of impressive size and girth despite your inability to trip them; while banking your trips against humanoid targets who get in your range.

Also, keep in mind that debuffs make opponents far more vulnerable than their numbers assume. Like I mentioned before, a ray of enfeeblement can knock a significant amount of their bonus off. Also, you can swap a trip attempt for a normal attack; so feel free to power-attack hard with your primary attack, and the declare your iterative attacks trips (they target touch AC, so you'll probably still hit).

Good so far? :smallsmile:

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-06, 08:13 PM
Tripping (and charging, and mounted charging, but that's a different subject) is one of the better tactics a non-ToB martial character can use, but as pointed out, it's not wise to push it too far unless you're a psychic warrior, a totemist, or a ToB character, all of which can get significantly higher bonuses to trip and have other abilities to back them up when they do so (or choose to do something else).

For instance, a 1st level half-giant psychic warrior can get quite large bonuses to Trip (+2 weapon, +4 Improved Trip, +4 race, +4 Strength, +5 for expansion, for a total of a +19 modifier...at level 2), and can get significant damage on the follow-up swing due to a higher Strength than normal. Assuming flaws, you can also grab Combat Reflexes as well so you can make quite a few more trips on attacks of opportunity. This number goes up even further once you consider other psionic powers available, such as animal affinity and strength of my enemy (which is an excellent debuff as well, to assist you even farther with your trip attempts). And I'm not even getting into the possibility of metamorphosis. And a half-giant psychic warrior can trip truly massive creatures (Huge at level 2 - assuming he can make the Str check, anyway, and Gargantuan by level 8, assuming LA buyoff), which is something a normal fighter or barbarian just can't do due to size restrictions.

Goliath barbarians can do something similar, but they get left behind at later levels.

In short, tripping is awesome at early levels if you focus a bit, but there aren't many classes that can pull it off well at later levels. Those that can REALLY can, and if you want to focus on tripping, you should jump into the classes that can pull it off.

SuperCracker
2010-07-06, 08:14 PM
Yeah. You pretty much just answered my question (with epic completeness). I need to check out Stand Still, though.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-06, 08:17 PM
Yeah. You pretty much just answered my question (with epic completeness). I need to check out Stand Still, though.http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 08:19 PM
What weapon gives a +2 to tripping? I know that some weapons give a +2 to disarming, and some weapons allow for tripping (which is normally restricted to Unarmed Strikes only), but I've NEVER EVER seen a single weapon that gives a +2 bonus to trip checks. About the only thing I can think of is the Sweeping Weapon enchant, but thats like, an overpriced +2 equiv.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-06, 08:24 PM
What weapon gives a +2 to tripping? I know that some weapons give a +2 to disarming, and some weapons allow for tripping (which is normally restricted to Unarmed Strikes only), but I've NEVER EVER seen a single weapon that gives a +2 bonus to trip checks. About the only thing I can think of is the Sweeping Weapon enchant, but thats like, an overpriced +2 equiv.Sorry. I think I was the one tripping there.

gallagher
2010-07-06, 08:39 PM
Sorry. I think I was the one tripping there.

why drink and drive when you can post while you dose?

The Shadowmind
2010-07-06, 08:50 PM
Factotum 3 can get INT to the trip check, making higher trip checks possible. The attack check to attempt to trip is unaffected though.

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 09:00 PM
Factotum 3 can get INT to the trip check, making higher trip checks possible. The attack check to attempt to trip is unaffected though.

That just substitutes Intelligence for strength though. Unless Intelligence is easier to buff than Strength?

Supercracker: What sort of opponents were you facing before your DM made you change from ToB to vanilla?

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-06, 09:12 PM
That just substitutes Intelligence for strength though. Unless Intelligence is easier to buff than Strength?

Supercracker: What sort of opponents were you facing before your DM made you change from ToB to vanilla?Actually, it's added to your Strength score for trip attempts.

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 09:44 PM
Actually, it's added to your Strength score for trip attempts.

Huh. Still, that's Strength, Dex(unless you can get something else for combat reflexes), and Int to pump, as well as Con since you're a fighty type, even if you aren't the type that expects to get knocked about due to denial of the ability to...

SuperCracker
2010-07-06, 10:41 PM
@Coidzor

Our game does a round-robin style of DM'ing. Each person does an adventure. So, first adventure had a fair amount of humanoids, a hydra, trolls, and shambling mounds.

The DM for the next adventure says to expect plenty of large creatures and creatures with 4 legs. I'm expecting werewolves to be amongst them.

I'm pretty convinced to just go with raw damaging ability, as I'm not playing a spiked chain tripper or something like that.

BritishBill
2010-07-06, 11:42 PM
i think tripping is worth it because it sucks to be laying on the ground during a fight in dungeons and dragons and real life :)

Hague
2010-07-07, 12:27 AM
I'm still experimenting with different takes on the ol' Soulknife's Bladewind ability. I'm wondering if I could use Bladewind with a reshaped mindblade in the form of a whip.


As a full attack, when wielding his mind blade, a soulknife can give up his regular attacks and instead fragment his mind blade to make one melee attack at his full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade.

When using bladewind, a soulknife forfeits any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats or abilities (such as the Cleave feat or the haste spell).

The mind blade immediately reverts to its previous form after the bladewind attack.

Now, would I be able to make an attack with my (normally ranged) Mind Dagger-Whip as they are now all melee attacks? I can take the Reshape Mind Blade feat (Dragon Magazine #341) as Whips are listed as Exotic Melee weapons.

That would give me the potential to make multiple trip attacks at all grounded and flying enemies within 15 feet.

Escheton
2010-07-07, 01:11 AM
whips dont have reach

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-07, 01:18 AM
whips dont have reachWhat, did they errata out the 15' reach they used to have in the PHB?

Escheton
2010-07-07, 01:21 AM
It's not reach, you don't provoke.
You can hit things within that range. Still not reach though.

Coidzor
2010-07-07, 01:23 AM
They don't threaten and thus can't take AoOs, It's still reach though. However all opponents that threaten you will get an AoO on you if you bladewind with a whip mindblade if I'm parsing the rules correctly.


Whip
The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.