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Adamaro
2010-07-06, 03:51 AM
Here's something I made after testing things for my lvl 20 campaign.

Somewhere around lvl 14 monsters become pray for all those munchkin-ish players out there and even mighty tarrasque can be destroyed with a proper bag of tricks. At such lvls monsters are unable to reach, hit or affect players and from here on it just gets worse. (we are talking of relevant characters here, that is wizards and not monks or samurais)
At a same time, balor for an example is an immortal with INT 24. 24! That's smarter then Einstein and it is illusory to expect that such a mofo will just sit and wait to get squashed by some stick-wielding monkey with pointy ears spewing forth blingy candy.

Thus here is a small repertoire of things every smart (and powerfull, rich dragon/beholder/balor/pit fiend/solar ...) should get in its hundreds of years of existence, hundreds or even thousands of minions at its disposal and all the money it wants.

To-get list:

the very basics:
- Spell-like ability (At will) Antimagic field
- Spell-like ability (At will) True seeing
- Spell-like ability (At will) Mages' disjunction
- Spell-like ability (At will) quickened Summon monster. Summons have a nasty habit of being suppressed in AMF but may contribute ... a little. Especially if you manage to warp in a nightwalker with flying.
- Acid Cloud (Ex) A lovely ability for your monster - it excludes a constant vapor that radiates outward in every direction for 60 feet. This vapor deals Xd6 points of acid damage each round to anyone caught in the cloud. Also - Negates True seeing! (TS does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.)

In relation to previous:
- Blindsight (Ex) You see them, they do not see you.

- Quickness (Su) - an extra action is just what you need to do something before re-activating that AMF of yours.
- Psi - like ability (at will) Trace teleport
After wizard sees his contingencies failing and is generally becoming drained of his powers, the nasty gnat usually tries to teleport out of (loosing) battle. This is a great way to track him down and teleport after him.

A tier higher (nothing too powerfull when facing lvl 20 munchkin wiz are the following traits:

- Magic Immunity (Ex)

- Null Time Field (Ex) Not even undead, oozes, constructs and other similar pesky entities are resistant to time. Make your enemy loose an action per turn and see him grow old in rage.

PId6
2010-07-06, 03:55 AM
So... are you asking "What's the best way to TPK my players without giving them any way to respond?" Because the answer is always "Rocks fall."

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 03:57 AM
I think it might be more

"How do you make it so a CR20 monster has a 50/50 chance of killing a lone Level 20 Wizard- which is the way the CR system is supposed to work?"

PId6
2010-07-06, 04:05 AM
I think it might be more

"How do you make it so a CR20 monster has a 50/50 chance of killing a lone Level 20 Wizard- which is the way the CR system is supposed to work?"
Depends. If you're talking about the theoretical level 20 lolhax wizard, it's not going to win anyway, because he's in his private demiplane Astral Projecting with an army of Solars doing his bidding after having Contact Other Plane'd everything in advance months ago.

If you mean a wizard that someone might actually play, I still think Rocks Fall is more elegant.

Aroka
2010-07-06, 04:12 AM
I think it might be more

"How do you make it so a CR20 monster has a 50/50 chance of killing a lone Level 20 Wizard- which is the way the CR system is supposed to work?"

Is it? I thought the way it's supposed to work is that a lone CR 20 monster expends, what is it again, 20% of the resources of a four-person party at ECL 20?

Obviously it's a pipe dream - lone monsters are never a challenge unless their CR is way above the party's average level.

PId6
2010-07-06, 04:17 AM
Is it? I thought the way it's supposed to work is that a lone CR 20 monster expends, what is it again, 20% of the resources of a four-person party at ECL 20?
CR 20 vs party should expend 25% of resources.

CR 20 vs ECL 20 should be a 50/50 matchup.

The moon should be made of cheese.

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 04:18 AM
I thought it was 20% of the resources of a 5 person party.

Either way- a 20th level monster "should" be the equal of a 20th level party member.

Hence, if the lone party member goes up against the monster, he's got around a 50/50 chance of losing, depending on who won initiative.

But if the whole party go up against the 20th level monster- it's unlikely that any will die- they'll just expend some resources.

Adamaro
2010-07-06, 04:25 AM
I still think Rocks Fall is more elegant.
All of these things are still beatable. Depleted uranium bombardment can be a real problem. Without pauldrons of contingency for monsters, of course ...:smallbiggrin:

Hallavast
2010-07-06, 05:15 AM
I think it might be more

"How do you make it so a CR20 monster has a 50/50 chance of killing a lone Level 20 Wizard- which is the way the CR system is supposed to work?"

Well the obvious and most exact solution is to make an equally optimized lvl 20 goblin wizard. :smallamused:

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 05:18 AM
true- but when your monster has lots of racial hit dice, it needs a way to upgrade itself to "approximately 20th level wizard in power" without taking wizard levels.

Morithias
2010-07-06, 05:22 AM
Homebrew, and practice improv. You can literally pull anything out of your rear if you can bluff high enough to justify it. One time one of my players got REALLY ticked off at a noble girl who wouldn't let him go crazy and genocide the orcs in the woods, so he drew his sword and attacked her and she just so 'happened' to have the vow of peace power. Basically with me just saying "she can choose who needs to save against the aura, similar to how a succubus (in some books at least) can choose not to drain energy with their kiss)." They all just shrugged and accepted mr. noble smasher, now was in jail and his +1 longsword was shattered.

PId6
2010-07-06, 05:30 AM
true- but when your monster has lots of racial hit dice, it needs a way to upgrade itself to "approximately 20th level wizard in power" without taking wizard levels.
Nonassociated Class Level rules allow that pretty easily. I don't normally advocate using those rules, but if the wizard player is being especially cheesy, a Cloud Giant Wizard 18 is only CR 20, and can take Epic Spellcasting...

Runestar
2010-07-06, 05:52 AM
All the magic-negating abilities in the world, and still nothing to prevent the wizard from hovering above, using PAO to transmute a uranium beach ball and dropping it on said monster for a million damage and 1d4 fire damage. :smallamused:

Gnaeus
2010-07-06, 05:57 AM
Thus here is a small repertoire of things every smart (and powerfull, rich dragon/beholder/balor/pit fiend/solar ...) should get in its hundreds of years of existence, hundreds or even thousands of minions at its disposal and all the money it wants.

To-get list:

the very basics:
- Spell-like ability (At will) Antimagic field
- Spell-like ability (At will) True seeing
- Spell-like ability (At will) Mages' disjunction
- Spell-like ability (At will) quickened Summon monster. Summons have a nasty habit of being suppressed in AMF but may contribute ... a little. Especially if you manage to warp in a nightwalker with flying.
- Acid Cloud (Ex) A lovely ability for your monster - it excludes a constant vapor that radiates outward in every direction for 60 feet. This vapor deals Xd6 points of acid damage each round to anyone caught in the cloud. Also - Negates True seeing! (TS does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.)


I don't have a 24 intelligence, but I want enemy balor in an AMF that shuts down all his spell likes, including his other new at wills, and all his SU and SP defenses. Or maybe he will take the time to activate it in combat :-).

Does the Balor worship Mystra?

Runestar
2010-07-06, 06:07 AM
That said, has anyone actually tried using a dragon which covered itself in an AMF? Granted, you need a widened AMF for a gargantuan dragon (a scroll or dragon capable of 9th lv spells), but the draconomicon seems to make a great deal out of this. Is it as tactically sound as it seems?

Killer Angel
2010-07-06, 06:13 AM
The moon should be made of cheese.

Leave the moon in the hands of a powerplayer, and you'll feel the stink from the Earth... :smalltongue:


Thus here is a small repertoire of things every smart (and powerfull, rich dragon/beholder/balor/pit fiend/solar ...) should get in its hundreds of years of existence, hundreds or even thousands of minions at its disposal and all the money it wants.


IF the players (and their characters) know this, AND if such added "basic" abilities are only a possible selection, and you can pick ONLY ONE of them for each particular monster, it could be interesting.

Adamaro
2010-07-06, 06:29 AM
All the magic-negating abilities in the world, and still nothing to prevent the wizard from hovering above, using PAO to transmute a uranium beach ball and dropping it on said monster for a million damage and 1d4 fire damage. :smallamused:
Well ... concealment with that acid cloud is a nice thing(especially if the target is tiny, flying creature with say, 40 DEX). Even better is an item with Contingecy. Or just a a 1000 feet Null time field.

@Killer Angel
One? Heh. All of this and more. Especially versus Dimensional anchor + Maw of chaos + Resilient sphere in one turn.

Superglucose
2010-07-06, 06:31 AM
Here's something I made after testing things for my lvl 20 campaign.
Oh dear...



Somewhere around lvl 14 monsters become pray for all those munchkin-ish players out there
*prey and no. Just as an example you should see the Against the Dragon game that PhoenixRivers (now banned) ran. 5 level 20 characters, cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, and ranger. Against an ECL 23 dragon. That was not a cake-walk, and honestly could have gone either way.



and even mighty tarrasque can be destroyed with a proper bag of tricks.
Give a party access to Wish and the tarrasque can be killed as early as 5th level. Certainly he poses no threat to competent parties above 5th level who can always simply fly away.


At such lvls monsters are unable to reach, hit or affect players and from here on it just gets worse. (we are talking of relevant characters here, that is wizards and not monks or samurais)
Wrong and wrong. Wizards are the most notorious abusers of this, of course, but let me introduce you to the Angels: Mr. Solar is a 20th level Cleric. With full BAB and a bunch of other really nice stuff. Dragons are pretty tough too in the hands of a skilled GM. And those are just things that can take on the tier 1 classes... challenges for 20th level tier 3s (such as Beguilers and the ToB classes) could even well be the demons and devils of note.


At a same time, balor for an example is an immortal with INT 24. 24! That's smarter then Einstein and it is illusory to expect that such a mofo will just sit and wait to get squashed by some stick-wielding monkey with pointy ears spewing forth blingy candy.
Balors are pretty awful.



- Spell-like ability (At will) Antimagic field
- Spell-like ability (At will) True seeing
- Spell-like ability (At will) Mages' disjunction
AMF isn't all that powerful to put on yourself. In fact, unless you know what you're doing (Mastery of Shaping or Extraordinary Spell Aim) it'll pretty much seal your doom against a competent wizard, who will have tons of spells that can go right through your AMF. And the AMF eliminates your ability to use your SLAs... meaning that now you can't see the wizard even though you have True Seeing at will.

Disjunction at will is a stupid idea and is horrendously broken. That spell is cheese.



- Spell-like ability (At will) quickened Summon monster. Summons have a nasty habit of being suppressed in AMF but may contribute ... a little. Especially if you manage to warp in a nightwalker with flying.
Quickened Summon Monster at will?!?! Wow that's crazy broken good. I get 1d4 Avorals every turn who'll spend their actions attempting to disrupt enemy casters with magic missiles.



- Acid Cloud (Ex) A lovely ability for your monster - it excludes a constant vapor that radiates outward in every direction for 60 feet. This vapor deals Xd6 points of acid damage each round to anyone caught in the cloud. Also - Negates True seeing! (TS does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.)
Do you mean Acid Fog? Acid Cloud doesn't make any sense... unless you're inventing a silly ability to tack onto every monster in the book.



In relation to previous:
- Blindsight (Ex) You see them, they do not see you.
... unless they have blindsight or a way of defeating blindsight or you don't have any invisibility methods up.



- Quickness (Su) - an extra action is just what you need to do something before re-activating that AMF of yours.
... yes. If you let everything have the choker's ability (which, I may remind you, is part of the reason shapechange is stupid stupid stupid good) they suddenly become about twice as powerful.



- Psi - like ability (at will) Trace teleport
After wizard sees his contingencies failing and is generally becoming drained of his powers, the nasty gnat usually tries to teleport out of (loosing) battle. This is a great way to track him down and teleport after him.
Not really. A smart wizard will flee with timestop->teleport->switch planes. Why? Anticipate Teleport. And divination spells.



A tier higher (nothing too powerfull when facing lvl 20 munchkin wiz are the following traits:

- Magic Immunity (Ex)
Huh? Define "magic immunity." Do you mean it has arbitrarily high spell resistance? Because that still doesn't even cause the remotest of problems for me.



- Null Time Field (Ex) Not even undead, oozes, constructs and other similar pesky entities are resistant to time. Make your enemy loose an action per turn and see him grow old in rage.
This one doesn't even make sense.

Here's a better idea: When designing encounters for high level parties, design balanced and interesting encounters. That doesn't mean that you throw the Tarrasque at your players. It means you throw Big T and his Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon master (Dominante Monster ftw!) at the party. Big T now has fly (Red Dragon's buffs) etc. etc. etc.

Because despite what you may think, the monster manual and the CRs aren't an impossible to work system. Yes, a lot of it doesn't make all that much sense (balors for example) but you can find monsters that are still a challenge for the buggers even up to level 20.

I know this not from just idly stating it as fact, but from the fact that I watched a party of 20th level characters from the top tiers struggle against something from the monster manual.

Runestar
2010-07-06, 06:32 AM
Well ... concealment with that acid cloud is a nice thing(especially if the target is tiny, flying creature with say, 40 DEX). Even better is an item with Contingecy. Or just a a 1000 feet Null time field.

I am fairly sure that dropping something down on a square requires no attack roll. Technically, I am not attacking the tarrasque, just dropping an item to the ground, and the Tarrasque simply happens to be in the way.

Blame the mechanics of turn-based combat if you must. :smallbiggrin:

Adamaro
2010-07-06, 06:43 AM
@Superglucose
Can you give me a link on that battle?

Solars: Dimensional anchor + Maw of chaos + Resilient sphere
Dragons: Shivering touch

Anyway wizard gets "I go first" in almost every fight. So all that balor-ish "I will now cast my ... whatever" does not even happen.

Acid Cloud:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm#devastationBeetle



timestop->teleport->switch planes
He can anticipate all he wants. Eventually he will run out of spells. And hunter will still be alive ...

Magic immunity defined:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm#ironColossus

Superglucose
2010-07-06, 07:01 AM
@Superglucose
Can you give me a link on that battle?
You'll have to wait on that.



Solars: Dimensional anchor + Maw of chaos + Resilient sphere
Three spell combos aren't sure things.



Dragons: Shivering touch
If you cannot figure out how to give a dragon with a CL of 19 and access to non-core spells (see above) immunity to shivering touch five ways to sunday then you need all these tricks you made up.



Anyway wizard gets "I go first" in almost every fight. So all that balor-ish "I will now cast my ... whatever" does not even happen.
That balor-ish? Balors are terrible. And how precisely does a wizard get "I go first" in every fight? What if he's fighting an equal wizard? Say.. a dragon? You know, let's say, a silver dragon who's a 19th level caster and is also immune to shivering touch by virtue of being a Silver Dragon?



Acid Cloud:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm#devastationBeetle


Magic immunity defined:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm#ironColossus
So you're reduced to giving epic obstacles to non-epic challenges. *yawn*



He can anticipate all he wants. Eventually he will run out of spells. And hunter will still be alive ...
Read it again. I teleport away while under the effects of timestop. You know where I went. Good! I then walk for 2 rounds (or run or whatever) in an arbitrary direction. Then I planeshift away, or Gate away, or whatever. "Oh, I augment to medium." Goody. I shapeshift into something with ridicuspeed, say, a Cheetah while under the effects of Longstrider and Haste to travel 800 feet in any direction in one round?

How is the hunter finding me now? Oh right, track. Well what if I pull this trick: use sprint in conjunction with a fly speed? The DC to track someone over air is 120, base.

If your challenge has all of these abilities and the ability to easily make a DC 120 (more depending on conditions) track check, then the "challenge" isn't measured in CR it's measured in "how quickly can I find a different game."

Ingus
2010-07-06, 07:17 AM
The most important think a Balor should have is Mind Blank.
Why?
"I teleport near the Balor, then I cast Quickened True Strike, then I cast Greater Celerity, then in my extra round I cast Assay Spell Resistence and Otto Irresistible Dance" SR overcome even with a natural 1, no save, Balor dancing for at least 2 rounds.
No-Save-or-sucks tactic.


Yes, high level monsters need to be improved. You can be more creative than uber-empower them, though.

Runestar
2010-07-06, 07:21 AM
The other alternative is to simply hope the DM will manage this in-game and focus on redesigning monsters so they can properly engage and challenge the entire party (or as many players as possible). The assumption being that scry-or-die tactics naturally leave out the rest of the party and they will protest in some manner.

One side effect of so many anti-mage tactics is that they screw over the non-casters even more. That's simply no fun for everyone, much less the fighter who has just had his entire magic wardrobe reduced to masterwork items. :smallannoyed:

WinWin
2010-07-06, 07:30 AM
Rather than nerfing magic (which hurts everyone, not just the spellcasters), why not use some of the wierd planar effects?

That way, magic just works differently for some encounters without gimping the items the party has. A pit fiend might lair near a planar gateway that enhances some of it's fire magic, or allows it to summon more minions. It might even corrupt any summons that the PC's use so that they attack everyone. Fire and Negative energy spells would be enhanced, positive energy effects might function at a lowed CL. Destroying the gateway returns the area to normal.

Just an example. This way you can change the rules for a few encounters, without changing the game.

monkey3
2010-07-06, 01:32 PM
Let me get this straight. Is the goal to make sure the 20th level monster has a 50/50 chance of killing the party? Are all level appropriate encounters supposed to TPK 50% of the time?

If so, how does any party even survive 1st level, let alone make it to 20? How many 50/50 encounters is your dream party going to have to live through to make it from 1st to 20th level? Have you done the math?

My gut says there are more stars in the universe than parties needed to survive such a campaign.

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 01:38 PM
It's to make sure the level 20 monster has a 50/50 chance of killing a lone level 20 character, not 50/50 chance of killing the whole party.

That would indeed by overpowered for that level.

Beorn080
2010-07-06, 01:52 PM
The problem is CR is horribly done. The lovely Tarresque, while requiring a decent chunk of arbitrary resources, sucks. Grease by itself essentially disables it. Compared to even Planetars, and its clear that it doesn't belong at CR20, except for that annoying and arbitrary wish requirement.

Honestly, if you have a wizard or similar Scry and Dieing, do the same to him but imprison him or something.

Eldariel
2010-07-06, 02:48 PM
The most important think a Balor should have is Mind Blank.
Why?
"I teleport near the Balor, then I cast Quickened True Strike, then I cast Greater Celerity, then in my extra round I cast Assay Spell Resistence and Otto Irresistible Dance" SR overcome even with a natural 1, no save, Balor dancing for at least 2 rounds.
No-Save-or-sucks tactic.

Am I the only one who finds Dancing Balor an incredibly amusing mental image? Better yet, Dancing Tarrasque :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oooh, Dancing Red Great Wyrm! "You pathetic mortals, I'm going to...shake that ass!"

tyckspoon
2010-07-06, 03:02 PM
It's to make sure the level 20 monster has a 50/50 chance of killing a lone level 20 character, not 50/50 chance of killing the whole party.

That would indeed by overpowered for that level.

And if you aim at the level 20 optimized Wizard.. chances are you're going to TPK everything that *isn't* an optimized full-caster. This is also a problem unless you are assuming that the entire party is that powerful, which is entering the realm of thought-experiment instead of the practical question of "what can I do to make mis-calibrated monsters proper challenges for an effective group of level 20 characters?"

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-06, 03:09 PM
I would limit the classes available to tiers 2-3 or 3-4, then take a look at what the party is capable of and tweak challenges to match.

That's about the best way to handle this problem, I think.

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 03:18 PM
And if you aim at the level 20 optimized Wizard.. chances are you're going to TPK everything that *isn't* an optimized full-caster. This is also a problem unless you are assuming that the entire party is that powerful, which is entering the realm of thought-experiment instead of the practical question of "what can I do to make mis-calibrated monsters proper challenges for an effective group of level 20 characters?"

The post did mention "munchkin players" and implied it had to be a fair challenge for those.

Maybe not Pun-pun level, but a fairly well optimized party.

jiriku
2010-07-06, 03:35 PM
@Superglucose
Can you give me a link on that battle?

Solars: Dimensional anchor + Maw of chaos + Resilient sphere
Dragons: Shivering touch

Anyway wizard gets "I go first" in almost every fight. So all that balor-ish "I will now cast my ... whatever" does not even happen.

Acid Cloud:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm#devastationBeetle


He can anticipate all he wants. Eventually he will run out of spells. And hunter will still be alive ...

Magic immunity defined:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm#ironColossus

I think where Superglucose is coming from (and I agree with this as well), is that it's not necessary to invent Power-Denial buttons for your monsters or to bring epic challenges to pre-epic levels. You simply need to optimize as well as your players do.

I see this from time to time when I join groups with novice DMs. I optimize well, and to avoid a balance problem I help the other players optimize, or share my buffs all around the party. The novice DM responds by using monsters that are CR +6, +8, or +10 over the party's level. This is the wrong response! You simply need to optimize your existing resources.

For example, many MM monsters are really badly designed. Feats like Alertness, Dodge, Endurance, Toughness, and Weapon Focus feature very heavily with the stock monsters. Swap those feats out for better choices, like Power Attack, Improved Toughness, Knowledge Devotion (a great choice for intelligent monsters), Leap Attack, Martial Study, Martial Stance, and others.

Likewise, I see many monsters that are all O and no D. They just can't take the kind of punishment that players of their CR dish out. Taking a lower CR monster instead, advancing it by 6-12 hit dice and giving it Combat Expertise (because advancement does little to help AC) makes it a more balanced threat, albeit against a slightly higher level of PC.

And use monsters that can match the capabilities of your players. If players are playing low-tier classes , then simple opponents like animals, giants, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids are a good match for them. Mid-tier classes have more options, so you should use more flexible monsters, such as aberrations, fey, and undead. High-tier classes have all the best toys, so break out the big guns against them and rely heavily on dragons and outsiders. With all tiers of PCs, use humanoids with class levels in classes of equal or higher tier.

Lunawarrior0
2010-07-26, 03:04 PM
The problem is CR is horribly done. The lovely Tarresque, while requiring a decent chunk of arbitrary resources, sucks. Grease by itself essentially disables it. Compared to even Planetars, and its clear that it doesn't belong at CR20, except for that annoying and arbitrary wish requirement.

Honestly, if you have a wizard or similar Scry and Dieing, do the same to him but imprison him or something.

How does grease disable the Tarresque in any significant way? Grease is a Level 1 spell, so even assuming 30 int, it only has a save of 21 or so, the Tarresque has a reflex of 29. I realize this is an example, but I am curious if there is something that I am missing.

Keld Denar
2010-07-26, 03:23 PM
Even if you suceed in the save vs Grease, you have to make a DC15 balance check to move. If you don't, you can't move. Its not the failed save that kills Mr T, but the arbitrary skill check in a skill that he doesn't have trained based on one of his worst stats (made worse by size penalties).

Beorn080
2010-07-26, 03:32 PM
How does grease disable the Tarresque in any significant way? Grease is a Level 1 spell, so even assuming 30 int, it only has a save of 21 or so, the Tarresque has a reflex of 29. I realize this is an example, but I am curious if there is something that I am missing.

Plus, with its size and half speed while moving through the greased area, it would take several turns to get through, unless it burns its speed ability. It has a 50/50 shot of not being able to move, about a 25% chance to just fall down, and if it makes that 50% to move, it can only go half speed. I'd say it effectively disables it.

Lunawarrior0
2010-07-26, 09:23 PM
ahh, I guess I never realized how nasty grease was.

Ashiel
2010-07-26, 09:57 PM
A 6th level cleric can solo and permanently destroy the terrasque without even using Wish or Miracle; and can even laugh it up by using what is left of him as a minion.

This has been a public service announcement from your friendly Anti-Godzilla Department of Resources. :smallsmile:

The Glyphstone
2010-07-26, 10:08 PM
A 6th level cleric can solo and permanently destroy the terrasque without even using Wish or Miracle; and can even laugh it up by using what is left of him as a minion.

This has been a public service announcement from your friendly Anti-Godzilla Department of Resources. :smallsmile:

Allips are silly.:smallbiggrin:

dgnslyr
2010-07-26, 10:08 PM
Am I the only one who finds Dancing Balor an incredibly amusing mental image? Better yet, Dancing Tarrasque :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Oooh, Dancing Red Great Wyrm! "You pathetic mortals, I'm going to...shake that ass!"

How would that help the party? He'll pull out his cane and hat, and moonwalk while blasting away at the party. All you've done is make him more awesome while he owns the party.

Ashiel
2010-07-27, 02:40 AM
Allips are silly.:smallbiggrin:

Muahaha. You know. Though I would actually use shadows, which are 3HD; but yeah, Allips will work too. :smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2010-07-27, 05:36 AM
CR 20 vs party should expend 25% of resources.

CR 20 vs ECL 20 should be a 50/50 matchup.

The moon should be made of cheese.

Its not really true even at lower levels. A single equal CR mob is just fodder for even a level 5 party.

Eldariel
2010-07-27, 05:42 AM
How would that help the party? He'll pull out his cane and hat, and moonwalk while blasting away at the party. All you've done is make him more awesome while he owns the party.

Well, 'cause the spell makes him too busy dancing to actually blast away at anyone.


Muahaha. You know. Though I would actually use shadows, which are 3HD; but yeah, Allips will work too. :smallsmile:

Shadows don't actually work. They only deal Strength Damage, something T is immune to. Allips, on the other hand, yeah.

Lans
2010-07-27, 08:40 AM
20th level Wizard vs Elemental Wierd with 8 levels of Mage of the Arcane Order.
Fight it out.