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View Full Version : Rules Lawyers Wanted: Ability Damage Immunity



Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:34 AM
Hello playgrounders, I've been looking through Tome of Battle and Greater Divine Surge caught my eye, or, that is to say the ability damage aspect of it did.

In looking for efficient ways to quickly overcome the ability damage I take from using the ability I became curious, if I somehow acquire ability damage immunity whilst keeping my Con score, does the ability damage trigger and then become reduced or does it not affect me at all?

From my reading of Greater Divine Surge the difference is that if I am in fact still taking the constitution damage and it is being negated afterwards then I can sacrifice constitution with impunity, where as if the constitution damage never takes effect then I do not know if it counts towards powering up Greater Divine Surge anymore.

Rules Lawyers of the playground, what is your verdict?

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 04:38 AM
I'd probably go with "must actually take the damage"

Binder with the Naberius vestige is the most common way to regenerate back CON damage.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:40 AM
I'd probably go with "must actually take the damage"

Binder with the Naberius vestige is the most common way to regenerate back CON damage.

I know of Naberius and many of the more standard ways of regenerating ability damage, for the most part I'm hunting for easy ways to do it within the window of the same round I use Greater Divine Surge at maximum however, preferably without relying on quick use of a potion either.

lord_khaine
2010-07-06, 04:42 AM
I would think a quickend restoration would be the most effective solution here.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:47 AM
I would think a quickend restoration would be the most effective solution here.

Yeah... it is... but then I want to take Crusader/Ur-Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator. And that seems like one of the roads to the Dark Side. Not that consequentless Greater Divine Surge isn't...

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-07-06, 04:51 AM
Did you have any particular scheme in mind? Normally, immunity and/or sufficient resistance reduce the damage taken to 0, meaning you would add nil to your Divine Surge con damage count unless the character actually takes some con damage.

JeminiZero
2010-07-06, 04:51 AM
where as if the constitution damage never takes effect then I do not know if it counts towards powering up Greater Divine Surge anymore.

The wording of Greater Divine Surge is that it grants bonuses "For each point of Constitution damage you take". I would intepret it that if you take no Con Damage (whether because you choose not to, or you are immune), you gain no bonus.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:54 AM
The wording of Greater Divine Surge is that it grants bonuses "For each point of Constitution damage you take". I would intepret it that if you take no Con Damage (whether because you choose not to, or you are immune), you gain no bonus.

Yeah, this is the way I'm leaning as well. Meaning I have a swift action to rid myself of the ability damage.


Did you have any particular scheme in mind? Normally, immunity and/or sufficient resistance reduce the damage taken to 0, meaning you would add nil to your Divine Surge con damage count unless the character actually takes some con damage.

In the vague sense yes. lord_khaine is right in that a quickened restoration would be the simplest solution. I'm mostly just being stubborn and trying to find a solution that I can use as many times per day without resting as I want.

Grumman
2010-07-06, 05:48 AM
In the vague sense yes. lord_khaine is right in that a quickened restoration would be the simplest solution. I'm mostly just being stubborn and trying to find a solution that I can use as many times per day without resting as I want.
At worst, you can wait another two levels and use a Greater Divine Surge - Strike of Righteous Vitality combo.

Superglucose
2010-07-06, 05:50 AM
Veil of Undeath?

Vulaas
2010-07-06, 11:46 AM
Would a Strongheart Vest be able to act as a buffer when essentia'd up? (IE: Take 4 con damage for the ability, have the vest reduce by 1+essentia)

Curmudgeon
2010-07-06, 11:57 AM
Would a Strongheart Vest be able to act as a buffer when essentia'd up?
Certainly, but why would you want it to? That would also prevent you from receiving the benefit of Greater Divine Surge by the amount that the Strongheart Vest absorbed. Remember, it's only the amount of CON damage you (not your stuff) takes that gives you the boost to attack and damage.

Optimator
2010-07-06, 02:59 PM
Well, there's always the ROd Of Bodily Restoration in the MiC. 3100 gp for 12 Con points healed per day sounds like a good deal to me.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:31 PM
Well, there's always the ROd Of Bodily Restoration in the MiC. 3100 gp for 12 Con points healed per day sounds like a good deal to me.

The problem is that we're taking 20 Con damage in a single strike and all we have left after the strike is a swift action.

Current idea for a full level 20 build is:

Crusader 2/Human Paragon 2/Swordsage 1/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 9/Master of the Nine 4

This setup will grant us:

-Level 6 Ur-Priest Entry

-9th Level Maneuvers

-Maneuvers Readied = Maneuvers Granted

-9th level Divine Spells

-DMM

-Restoration and the ability to Quicken/DMM Quicken it

-Depending on how you stack RKV and Ur-Priest we also qualify for the Initiate of Mystra feat if we use the RKV adaptation rules to change the deity from Wee Jas to Mystra.

Douglas
2010-07-06, 04:44 PM
The problem is that we're taking 20 Con damage in a single strike and all we have left after the strike is a swift action.
If your DM allows "ally" to include yourself in this instance, you could spend that swift action on White Raven Tactics on yourself, immediately granting you another turn which you could use to heal yourself up with Strike of Righteous Vitality.


-Maneuvers Readied = Maneuvers Granted
You mean the number of them, so every maneuver is granted every round? How is your build doing that?


-Depending on how you stack RKV and Ur-Priest we also qualify for the Initiate of Mystra feat if we use the RKV adaptation rules to change the deity from Wee Jas to Mystra.
Sorry, but Ur-Priest is rather antithetical to worshiping (and especially getting spells from) any deity.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 04:53 PM
You mean the number of them, so every maneuver is granted every round? How is your build doing that?



Edit: You caught my error, I forget to handle things such that Maneuvers Known = Maneuvers Granted. Changing now.




Sorry, but Ur-Priest is rather antithetical to worshiping (and especially getting spells from) any deity.

There is no mechanical rule that bans an Ur-Priest from Worshipping. It is a part of his flavor text. Worship is all we need to qualify for RKV

Prodan
2010-07-06, 04:58 PM
Ur Priest adaptation section mentions you can fluff it as worshiping a dead god.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-06, 04:58 PM
Kill Mystra and then worship her as a Dead God a la Ur-Priest's Adaptation?

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 05:06 PM
The build has been edited, it is now:

Crusader 2/Human Paragon 2/Swordsage 1/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 9/Master of the Nine 4,

Crusader's Maneuvers Known = It's Maneuvers Granted now though the build is more feat heavy :smallmad:

Ur-Priest Adaptation if Mystra dies is an option but mechanically it is unnecessary as the pre-quisites for entering the prestige class do not ban worshiping a deity. So either way by RAW we at the least qualify for RKV.

mabriss lethe
2010-07-06, 05:20 PM
Craft Contingent Spell (the item creation feat from Complete Arcane) might also help with action economy. Have a restoration set up with the trigger condition be "any time you take con damage."

alternately, there's magic trap abuse. Take Craft Wondrous Item and then make a resetting magic trap of restoration. (then wait for the DMG to come sailing through the air at you.)

Wings of Peace
2010-07-06, 05:25 PM
Craft Contingent Spell (the item creation feat from Complete Arcane) might also help with action economy. Have a restoration set up with the trigger condition be "any time you take con damage."

alternately, there's magic trap abuse. Take Craft Wondrous Item and then make a resetting magic trap of restoration. (then wait for the DMG to come sailing through the air at you.)

Or given time and money we could craft a Spell Clock of Restoration for every second of the day :smallsmile:

Grumman
2010-07-06, 10:50 PM
The problem is that we're taking 20 Con damage in a single strike and all we have left after the strike is a swift action.
Obvious solution: don't be so greedy.

And you still haven't said how you're getting Maneuvers Known = Maneuvers Granted.


If your DM allows "ally" to include yourself in this instance, you could spend that swift action on White Raven Tactics on yourself, immediately granting you another turn which you could use to heal yourself up with Strike of Righteous Vitality.
You cannot use WRT on yourself. End of story.

Douglas
2010-07-06, 11:42 PM
You cannot use WRT on yourself. End of story.
Unless there's been ToB errata I haven't heard about or you're the DM in this case, it's not that simple. There is ample precedent in 3.5 for the term "ally" to include yourself, and WRT does not say anything to exclude that.

Aracor
2010-07-07, 06:26 AM
You can't quicken a restoration spell anyway. Quicken cannot be used on a spell that has a casting time greater than one round, and Restoration has a 3 round cast time.

Grumman
2010-07-07, 07:31 AM
Unless there's been ToB errata I haven't heard about or you're the DM in this case, it's not that simple. There is ample precedent in 3.5 for the term "ally" to include yourself, and WRT does not say anything to exclude that.
I think the intent is clear that it's supposed to be something you use on other people and not yourself. It's worth pointing out that your reading of the ability would make this level 3 maneuver almost as powerful and far more versatile than Time Stands Still, a level 9 maneuver.

Douglas
2010-07-07, 07:59 AM
It's worth pointing out that your reading of the ability would make this level 3 maneuver almost as powerful and far more versatile than Time Stands Still, a level 9 maneuver.
Yes, I know. This is precisely why WRT is widely considered one of the two broken maneuvers in the book (the other one is Iron Heart Surge).

Even with the ambiguous maybe-RAI interpretation of not using it on yourself, that just means you have to get two martial adepts using it on each other to get the exact same brokenness.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-07, 01:48 PM
Obvious solution: don't be so greedy.



No.




And you still haven't said how you're getting Maneuvers Known = Maneuvers Granted.



We are applying RKVs bonus Maneuvers Granted to Crusader but applying its bonus Maneuvers Known to our Swordsage side. This along with Extra Granted Maneuver brings Crusader up to 5 Maneuvers Known and 5 Granted Maneuvers. We later get higher level maneuvers while maintaining the balance by taking Master of the Nine and applying the odd level +1 Known +1 Granted to our Crusader side and the even levels to the Swordsage side.

So in total our Crusader side knows 7 maneuvers and every round he refreshes them all automatically.

Mikeavelli
2010-07-07, 01:54 PM
Use a Belt of Battle, swift action gets you another move, standard, or full-round action, depending on the amount of charges you want to use.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-07, 02:02 PM
Use a Belt of Battle, swift action gets you another move, standard, or full-round action, depending on the amount of charges you want to use.

Considered it, right now the build can run off of Nightstick hacking which I prefer to belt of battle since I can always buy more Nightsticks.

Person_Man
2010-07-07, 02:24 PM
Another option is to simply play it strait. If you have a high Constitution and you only use Greater Divine Surge intelligently (ie, when your hit points are high enough and you only have 1 deadly enemy left in combat) then it works fine without any shenanigans. After combat have someone cast a couple of Restorations on you (buy a wand if you need to) and you're fine. The various methods of getting around it generally aren't worth the investment, unless you want to make an entire build around it. (For example, a Binder/Crusader who uses a lot of Vile feats, drugs, X-Ray glasses, etc).