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J.Gellert
2010-07-06, 05:28 AM
It has been a while since Rich wrote of 11 basic RPG assumptions in his article about world-building. We've seen the release of different RPG titles, settings that strive for originality, and even a new edition of D&D since then.

So I'm wondering, what's changed? And what is still common in fantasy?

Here's my list...

1- Humans dominate all worlds.
2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
10- Death is temporary.

Prime32
2010-07-06, 05:34 AM
Orcs aren't necessarily a Proud Warrior Race. In D&D I think that falls more on hobgoblins. Who, IIRC, invented swords and were the first samurai.

PId6
2010-07-06, 05:36 AM
Orcs aren't necessarily a Proud Warrior Race. In D&D I think that falls more on hobgoblins. Who, IIRC, invented swords and were the first samurai.
Not to mention started the Iron Heart discipline.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-06, 05:41 AM
Obligatory link... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRPGClichesGame)

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 05:42 AM
Those are Top 10 D&D Assumptions. Except for the first one, none of the others are nearly widespread enough to make the list.

In fact, that's a huge assumption on these boards: D&D is the only RPG out there.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-07-06, 06:15 AM
...
In fact, that's a huge assumption on these boards: D&D is the only RPG out there.
Well, this is the board associated with a D&D webcomic, so it's bound to happen that D&D is the default RPG referred to.

But yeah - d20 may be the Windows of RPGs, but there are plenty of other games, and even plenty of other settings within the d20 subgenre. Those RPG assumptions don't include anything from the WoD RPG, for instance.

Prime32
2010-07-06, 06:17 AM
Those RPG assumptions don't include anything from the WoD RPG, for instance.#1 Being awesome sucks.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 06:18 AM
#1 Being awesome sucks.

White Wolf loves blessing people with utter suckitude, though. Including their freelancers. In real life.

Aroka
2010-07-06, 06:18 AM
Those are Top 10 D&D Assumptions. Except for the first one, none of the others are nearly widespread enough to make the list.

In fact, that's a huge assumption on these boards: D&D is the only RPG out there.

So true on both counts.

Just looking around my desk, I see RuneQuest and HeroQuest (fails 2-8 and 10), Artesia: Adventures in the Known World (fail 2-7 and 10), Conan d20 (fails 2, 3, 5, 8, 10, and 66% of 9), Pendragon (fails 2 and 4-10), Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (fails 3-6, 8, and 10), Call of Cthulhu and Trail of Cthulhu (fail 2-10), and Lord of the Rings (fails 4-8 and 10)

All of those fail 5 simply by virtue of not having anything called a "paladin" (or really even resembling it beyond "good knight"); Artesia and WFRP both have templar knights, but both also have questing knights.

ka_bna
2010-07-06, 06:34 AM
And I thought I read Top 10 Elven RPG Assumptions...:smallredface:

Yora
2010-07-06, 06:38 AM
1- Humans dominate all worlds.
2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
(9- Gods, angels and demons are real.)
10- Death is temporary.
I like my homebrew setting. :smallbiggrin:

Morty
2010-07-06, 08:28 AM
Whether or not D&D deserves to be favoured here, the thing is, there's no such thing as "RPG assumptions" because there are games in which none of those 10 things are true simply because they aren't fantasy.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 08:29 AM
Whether or not D&D deserves to be favoured here, the thing is, there's no such thing as "RPG assumptions" because there are games in which none of those 10 things are true simply because they aren't fantasy.

In that case, the first thing is pretty much true by default.

Well, maybe not in sci-fi settings.

Prodan
2010-07-06, 08:30 AM
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

What, sleep around with every woman for miles, have an affair with his liege's wife, indirectly cause the downfall of the realm, that Lancelot?

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-06, 08:33 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: If you have a suggestion about Forum administration or structure, feel free to PM me or post in Board Issues. (You may want to peruse Board Issues before doing so, though, odds are your suggestion has been made previously.)

A half-dozen posts that were essentially off-topic complaints about forum structure have been removed. Please try to keep this thread on topic.

Prime32
2010-07-06, 08:34 AM
What, sleep around with every woman for miles, have an affair with his liege's wife, indirectly cause the downfall of the realm, that Lancelot?The Lancelot who went into blind rages in combat where he couldn't tell friend from foe?

Iferus
2010-07-06, 08:35 AM
What, sleep around with every woman for miles, have an affair with his liege's wife, indirectly cause the downfall of the realm, that Lancelot?

You, sir, made me laugh.

Aroka
2010-07-06, 08:40 AM
In that case, the first thing is pretty much true by default.

Well, maybe not in sci-fi settings.

There's also games like Talislanta and ElfQuest, and settings like Council of Wyrms but they are definitely the exception.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 08:47 AM
There's also games like Talislanta and ElfQuest, and settings like Council of Wyrms but they are definitely the exception.

They are already fantasy, though. I was referring to Morty's "there are games in which none of those 10 things are true simply because they aren't fantasy" comment.

Morty
2010-07-06, 08:52 AM
In that case, the first thing is pretty much true by default.

Well, maybe not in sci-fi settings.

Yeah, true. Although noone really talks about humans "dominating" the world in non-fantasy settings.

Aroka
2010-07-06, 08:54 AM
They are already fantasy, though. I was referring to Morty's "there are games in which none of those 10 things are true simply because they aren't fantasy" comment.

Duh. Yeah. A bunch of the fantasy RPGs I listed fail it because they lack the standard D&D races, too.

PId6
2010-07-06, 09:14 AM
What, sleep around with every woman for miles, have an affair with his liege's wife, indirectly cause the downfall of the realm, that Lancelot?
If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, props. Loved those books.

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 09:16 AM
Lancelot does that in a lot of books.

Probably the most unsympathetic portrayal of his was in Bernard Cordwell's Warlord Chronicles Arthur trilogy though. Good books.

PId6
2010-07-06, 09:28 AM
Lancelot does that in a lot of books.

Probably the most unsympathetic portrayal of his was in Bernard Cordwell's Warlord Chronicles Arthur trilogy though. Good books.
That's the one I was thinking of.

Does he do it in others too? Only other adaptation I've read/seen is the Monty Python version, and that doesn't seem to be a good basis for comparison.

Teln
2010-07-06, 09:34 AM
From what I've heard, Monty Python's Lancelot is uncannily accurate, due to one of the troupe being a fan of the Arthurian legends.


EDIT: Also, Exalted fails 4, 8, 33% of 9, 50% of 2, and may or may not fail 5 depending on whether or not you accept Immaculate monks as Paladins.

hamishspence
2010-07-06, 09:37 AM
In some he's a bit better than others- but sleeping with Guinevere, getting caught and thus triggering civil war tends to be common to most versions.

Galahad at least, is usually portrayed as born out of wedlock to Lancelot and Elaine. Though the Warlord Chronicles averts this by making him Lancelot's half-brother.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 11:06 AM
50% of 2

Which half? Also, what are you accepting as orcs, elves, dwarves and halflings? The last three can be raksha, mountain folk and djala, but I don't know any good analogue for orcs.

Umael
2010-07-06, 11:33 AM
1- Humans dominate all worlds.

Meh. This one is easily compared to the corollary: "The world is awash with all kinds of monsters and fantasy races." While a number of settings have a human-dominate theme, there are few that strike a balance between humans being found everywhere and worlds where the number of races can't be counted on all your fingers and toes.

D&D is the most obvious - human and six other playable races in just the main book. Then they add a slew of major enemy races (orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, ogres, kobolds, lizardfolk, etc.), and if that isn't enough, they put in templates for half-dragon, half-celestial, half-fiend, and so on... and this is just the core books!

One of my favorite games, L5R, seems to do a better job of this. After all, you have mostly just humans divided up into various Clans where you can run an entire campaign and never encounter a non-human. Well, except for the kami, but they don't count. Oh, and the Shadowlands, that will probably come up. With all their oni and goblins and ogres and trolls and undead. And if you look closely, you will see Ratlings and Naga and Ashalan and Ningyo.

...

Right! Well, what about Shadowrun? Humans and a bunch of meta-humans, trolls, orks, elves, and dwarves, and that's it! Except that there is a bestiary that includes Wendigo, vampires, dragons...

Yeah. Show me a world where the number of races and monsters are kept small.



2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.

This one is more stereotype than true, even when you look at the various races. I think a better assumption is that the world even HAS elves, dwarves, orcs, and halflings.



3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.

Right. I prefer alignment-less systems.



4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

How about "D&D classes are used at all"?



6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.

*chuckle*
How about re-flavoring them "Professional thrill-seekers"?



7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.

Sadly, understandable, and even somewhat sensible. Of course, the evil mage alone in his tower summoning a demon is something of a trope in-and-of-itself.



8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.

Gah! Not in my ideal fantasy gaming world!


9- Gods, angels and demons are real.

*shrug*
Do or don't, this one is kinda harmless insofaras gaming and stories for gaming go.


10- Death is temporary.

I'm divided on this one.

On one hand, I like the idea of death being permanent. You're dead, that's it.

On the other hand, I like the idea of death being usually permanent, where you have someone who can actually brave death and return.


(By the by, nice list.)

Tiki Snakes
2010-07-06, 11:38 AM
Hobgoblins are just Orcs by a different name. So, psh.

arrowhen
2010-07-06, 11:39 AM
The basic rule of fantasy politics: kingdoms good, empires bad.

Lhurgyof
2010-07-06, 11:43 AM
White Wolf loves blessing people with utter suckitude, though. Including their freelancers. In real life.

Don't they make games that involve rolling hundreds of d10's just for one round of combat?

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 11:50 AM
Don't they make games that involve rolling hundreds of d10's just for one round of combat?

No. A few dozens, but not hundreds.

Aroka
2010-07-06, 12:05 PM
Yeah. Show me a world where the number of races and monsters are kept small.

Pendragon - everyone's human. Monsters are rare in-world, and mostly live in weird fae places that aren't quite in the real world, but common in-game because the PCs are the people who go out and have heroic adventures and slay the monsters.

The Riddle of Steel (the default setting in the core book) - everyone's human. Elves, dwarves, and monsters may or may not even exist; an entire nation manages to disbelieve their existence, and treats others' belief in faeries and dragons as the superstitions they may be.

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World - there's no such thing as non-humans. Monsters are rare, and none are intelligent humanoids. The faerie are incorporeal spirits, and so rare that some societies don't believe they exist.

I'm assuming non-fantasy games/settings are exempt, since that'd be trivial.


This one is more stereotype than true, even when you look at the various races. I think a better assumption is that the world even HAS elves, dwarves, orcs, and halflings.

For def. Even many classic D&D settings don't conform to the ideas; Dark Sun elves are gregarious traders who run from city to city, the dwarves are bald piles of muscle, and halflings are vicious jungle cannibals. But they're still very much elves, dwarves, and halflings.

Similarly, Runequest's Glorantha has very recognizable elves and dwarves, but the elves are shamanistic walking, talking, thinking vegetarian-cannibal plants with leaves for hair, and the dwarves are asexual immortal machinists who see themselves as cogs in the World Machine...


Sadly, understandable, and even somewhat sensible. Of course, the evil mage alone in his tower summoning a demon is something of a trope in-and-of-itself.

In fact, it goes right back to the roots of modern fantasy - the Lovecraftian authors Robert E. Howard and Clark Ashton Smith pretty much started it. (Also, walking skeletons with points of red light in their eye-sockets.)

jamroar
2010-07-06, 12:08 PM
Similarly, Runequest's Glorantha has very recognizable elves and dwarves, but the elves are shamanistic walking, talking, thinking vegetarian-cannibal plants with leaves for hair, and the dwarves are asexual immortal machinists who see themselves as cogs in the World Machine...


And the halflings are ducks.

Woodsman
2010-07-06, 12:12 PM
The basic rule of fantasy politics: kingdoms good, empires bad.

I actually modified that in my campaign setting: The major empire is decent (not really good or bad), the kingdoms are varied to Hell and back (almost literally, too), and the few actual republics are kinda jerky (for lack of a better term).

Aroka
2010-07-06, 12:24 PM
And the halflings are ducks.

Really, really angry ducks. (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9788/22zt1.jpg)

Whose warriors worship the terrible god of death.

9mm
2010-07-06, 12:37 PM
Don't they make games that involve rolling hundreds of d10's just for one round of combat?

your thinking of older editions of Shadowrun and it was d6's actually.

Umael
2010-07-06, 12:48 PM
Pendragon

The Riddle of Steel (the default setting in the core book)

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World

Well, I said show me one, and you showed me three...

For the record, I didn't say it was impossible, just that a lot of games miss that niche.

(Also, thanks for the list.)


For def. Even many classic D&D settings don't conform to the ideas; Dark Sun elves are gregarious traders who run from city to city, the dwarves are bald piles of muscle, and halflings are vicious jungle cannibals. But they're still very much elves, dwarves, and halflings.

I was thinking about Dark Sun, actually, but decided I would go with the better idea of pointing out that a lot of fantasy settings do not even have these staple fantasy races. There are no elves in Rokugan, nor dwarves, nor halflings, nor orcs. And goblins are a lot, lot different.



In fact, it goes right back to the roots of modern fantasy - the Lovecraftian authors Robert E. Howard and Clark Ashton Smith pretty much started it. (Also, walking skeletons with points of red light in their eye-sockets.)

A lot of evil mages fill a particular niche too, that of the bad guy. In Rokugan, you can have evil shugenja (the closest thing to a mage) who isn't a "bad guy" (and, in fact, might be working with the PCs if not a PC him/herself). At the same time, the evil magic of Rokugan does tend to involve making deals with oni and controling the undead...

The trouble is when you say "evil mage", what comes to mind is not someone who is evil and who uses magic, but someone who is not only evil, but uses magic that is evil. Decent examples of mages who are evil, but whose magic is not inherently so, are somewhat rare. Winnowill from Elfquest is a good example of someone who is evil and uses magic (often twisting her magic to match her insanity), but her magic is not itself evil.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-06, 12:53 PM
In Rokugan, you can have evil shugenja (the closest thing to a mage) who isn't a "bad guy" (and, in fact, might be working with the PCs if not a PC him/herself).

Can't you also play a maho-tsukai as a morally ambiguous evil protagonist? Or is it pretty much doomed to failure?

Ajadea
2010-07-06, 12:53 PM
I homebrewed a setting, not the one I'm playing on the boards. Let's see how it matches up.



1- Humans dominate all worlds.

No. They only dominate the above-ground regions, and even then, only the ones that don't involve freezing or roasting.


2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.

Elves are druids or mages and aren't so much reclusive as straight up racist, drow are proud warrior race guys in addition to being magical speciests. Dwarfs are miners who have guns. And nukes. And tanks. No magic though. Orcs are shamanic, tribal, hunter-gathers and don't know what elves are. Halflings are fierce jungle natives, not particularly precious, and generally are gone before you know that they've taken your purse.


3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.

No alignment. Generally you consider yourself to be good, and everyone who opposes you is evil.


4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.

Most woodsmen fight with a bow and short sword. Elves are the ones who fight with two weapons.


5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

I'll give you that. Add extra zealousness and a philosophy of 'guilty until proven innocent'.


6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.

The civilized term is 'mercenary'. Or 'lunatic'.


7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.

No. It's hazardous to your health.


8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.

No. About 70% of magic items are relics of the past. 90% of those are unusable.


9- Gods, angels and demons are real.

Gods seem to be real, celestials and fiends exist and are real.


10- Death is temporary.

Only if you've got the blessing of the Ghost Queen. Otherwise you're not leaving.

ninjaneer003
2010-07-06, 12:55 PM
The basic rule of fantasy politics: kingdoms good, empires bad.

For Warhammer, Empires good, very good, and if you don't think so then they send a witchhunter to change your mind.

Aroka
2010-07-06, 01:02 PM
Well, I said show me one, and you showed me three...

For the record, I didn't say it was impossible, just that a lot of games miss that niche.

(Also, thanks for the list.)

Totally.

Curiously, games that hit the niche tend to have a very different approach to doing fantasy in general.

The Riddle of Steel has an incredibly realistic, smooth, and fun combat system and a "fantasy Earth" world, and is, in total, about as far from D&D as you can get and still be classic fantasy. (Really, but for names and other details, it might as well be "ASOIAF the RPG".)

Similarly, Artesia: AKW has a realistic (if more simplistic) combat system, and a world of such depth, verisimilitude, and mythological wonder that it's hard to even articulate how much it enchants me. It really is more like roleplaying in real mythology.

Both games are very close to each other in all respects, it's just that one really shines in fun mechanics, and the other in a fun setting. I can't possibly over-recommend either (although TROS, at least, is hard to get - it's been out of print since the company quietly evaporated). Artesia has the unfair advantage, I suppose, of apparently being entirely the work of one megalomaniac genius (Smylie, the artist-writer of the Artesia comics).


The trouble is when you say "evil mage", what comes to mind is not someone who is evil and who uses magic, but someone who is not only evil, but uses magic that is evil. Decent examples of mages who are evil, but whose magic is not inherently so, are somewhat rare. Winnowill from Elfquest is a good example of someone who is evil and uses magic (often twisting her magic to match her insanity), but her magic is not itself evil.

Winnowill is a great example, since she technically uses healing magic, but uses it so wrong. Using good magic to evil ends is a nice theme.

I suppose Raistlin might count, too? He technically uses your standard D&D magic, but uses it increasingly for evil purposes.


Can't you also play a maho-tsukai as a morally ambiguous evil protagonist? Or is it pretty much doomed to failure?

It would probably be hard, but it would be interesting; trying to use maho without actually being taken over by it.

Actually, I think maho-tsukai like you describe might be the most common type: a shugenja who starts using maho without actually being "evil" or insane, simply desiring power or success, and eventually screws up by trying to summon an oni and losing his name to it.


Edit: I am personally partial to settings that have more-or-less objective evil, but no objective good. Warhammer Fantasy, RuneQuest's Glorantha, Legend of Five Rings... there's Chaos/Shadowlands, but all the mortals believe that their particular culture is "good", more or less, while other cultures tend to be "evil".

Umael
2010-07-06, 01:03 PM
Can't you also play a maho-tsukai as a morally ambiguous evil protagonist? Or is it pretty much doomed to failure?

You can play someone who has the Shadowlands Taint and is a tragically doomed good protagonist (or at least, tragically inconvenienced), but being a maho-tsukai means you are far more actively embracing the power of the Shadowlands.

There was one online PbP game I played where someone was a maho-tsukai who was in love (which is already a step towards tragedy) with someone else, but I'm not sure I would call her a "protagonist".

Turning to maho is kinda like using the Dark Force - only the Shadowlands is a lot more possessive. It really is a Taint that can't be removed (save with heavy-duty plot bleach).

Shademan
2010-07-06, 02:00 PM
Obligatory link... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRPGClichesGame)

CURSE YOU! CURSE YOU FOR ETERNITY!!!
*sits up all night reading tvtropes*


oh, I wanna try matching the list with my current homebrew!

1- Humans dominate all worlds.
no. pretty much every nation is a solid mix of races. heck, the king the players are gonna work for is part dwarf!

2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
elves are mysterious and secretive. and if you dont know it, they'll tell you, just to be sure. dwarves are crafters as well... orcs are low browed hooligans and halflings are "those damn gypsies"

3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
very much so.
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
many of the barbarians tend to be rangers, ranger/rogues or fighters. Only the berserkers are ragers.

5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
Paladins are The man with no name

6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
no. "adventurers" are untrustworthy! they stole my pig last year and knocked up my daughter! only I dont have a daughter! only a son!!

7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
mages are RARE. the few that DO exist and ARE evil cant summon demons (they dont exist) and undeads are more of a divine thingy. tho' they tend to ally with evil fey.
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
HAHA. no
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
nope. they dont exist
10- Death is temporary.
nope. there is NO ressurection! you MIGHT get reincarnated for the sake of cosmic irony or a god MIGHT ressurect you... temporarely.

that was fun

Decoy Lockbox
2010-07-16, 02:32 AM
10- Death is temporary.

I've always hated this, so I normally ban any method of resurrection (I find they cheapen the narrative of death), but myth is full of people coming back from the dead, so I decided to come up with a crazy ass series of house rules allowing this to happen:

Friends of the deceased must find the abode of death in the afterlife (in this case, a heavily modified shadowfell from 4e). This is no easy task, but once done, death is obligated to allow one person one spin of a wheel 'o fortune with 5 outcomes (to be represented by a d20 roll). The possible outcomes are:

1 -- your friend may only leave the realm of the dead if you (the person doing the wheel spinning) are willing to exchange places with him/her (hence, they live = you die). Results permanent. Only usable once per dead person.

2-5 -- Musical jam-off with death (you pick the instruments). You win, friend goes free. You lose, you die.

6-12 -- Single combat with death (you pick manner of combat/weapons). You win, friend goes free. You lose, you die (obviously).

13-19 -- Play at chess with death. You win, friend goes free. You lose, you die.

20 -- your friend goes scot free. Any given dead person can only take advantage of this once...once!

Of course, any conceivable method of entering the Shadowfell is completely impossible for anyone who isn't a powerful hero of some sort *cough* D&D adventurers cough* and entering as a mortal is punishable by a fate worse than death (exception: unless you can make it to death's abode without being caught); the realm of the dead also has exactly one entry/exit point, the mouth of the river styx, which is guarded by an extremely nasty, nigh-unbeatable entity whose only purpose is to ensure that dead people stay in and living people stay out.

Of course, with no resurrection in this setting, once the party gets to be high enough level to use the planeshift ritual (level 18), there will undoubtedly be some lost friends and family (not to mention a decent PC body count) that they will wish to help escape from the Raven Queen's icy clutches. My players are about to hit lvl 13, so I guess I'll have to find out whether they want to cross that bridge when we come to it :smallwink:

For a time, I also toyed with the idea of allowing characters to roll acrobatics->escape artist checks to escape from their own afterlives, based sheerly on my love for this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDSpGsqYZaw).

LibraryOgre
2010-07-16, 11:23 AM
Lancelot does that in a lot of books.

Probably the most unsympathetic portrayal of his was in Bernard Cordwell's Warlord Chronicles Arthur trilogy though. Good books.

You might try Bill Coffin's Pax Morgana, which starts off with a fairly sympathetic portrayal of the Lancelot/Guinivere/Arthur triangle.

Or, you could go with MC Lars. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_RL7gOD7S8) (warning: language is a touch saucy)

Fearan
2010-07-16, 12:19 PM
Hmm, I'll also compare those with my current setting

1- Humans dominate all worlds.
Check. There are regions, dominated by dragons, but still
2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
Too bad, so sad - there are no elves, dwarfs and such.
3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
More like Order and Disorder, but I guess, fits anyway
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
Well, yeah, D&D classes are on.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
Wrong. Pals are pals - mostly because, there is no sufficiently Good church
6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
Yeah - they do dirty work for politicians
7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
My mages prefer abberations and magical beasts
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
Lol, have you ever tried force a mage to do item creation 8 hours a day 5 days a week?
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
Demons - no. Just no. Who needs them, if we got evil gods and abberations
10- Death is temporary.
Well, it's D&D setting - needed assumption

Aroka
2010-07-16, 12:22 PM
10- Death is temporary.
Well, it's D&D setting - needed assumption

Why? D&D can work fine with permanent death, or very very rare resurrections (through divine intervention or ancient artifacts or forbidden rituals). Just because the game is D&D doesn't mean death is unavoidable.

Fearan
2010-07-16, 12:32 PM
Just because the game is D&D doesn't mean death is unavoidable.
It doesn't. But it really gives more tension, when you know, that ressurection is OK, and, for example, suddenly find out, that particular villain can kill with no possibility for reviving. Makes him more villain-ish. Also when killing your enemy is simply not enough, it stimulates intrigues, reputation wars, and other social-fu.

Hurlbut
2010-07-16, 12:58 PM
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
Demons - no. Just no. Who needs them, if we got evil gods and abberations
Well Demon, Daemon, or Devil is a catch all term for an outsider/alien being that's utterly evil (usually want to consume, corrupt, or rend your flesh/soul).

Aotrs Commander
2010-07-16, 01:20 PM
Let's see how my current world Dreemaenhyll racks up, for the sheer hell of it.

I should note, before I begin, that I am a shameless Tolkien fanboy and further my preferences are skewed by my early roleplayign development; which was HeroQuest/Rolemaster/Warhammer; i.e. two on Warhammer world (20 years ago much more Tolkien-ly derived; heck the word "hobbit" actually made it into my copy of WFRP) and one very actually on Middle-Earth. Dreemaenhyll thus has a lot of Tolkien-like flavour to it with regard to the "big" fantasy races (Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs and their kin) and some other areas (like magic items, for example).


1- Humans dominate all worlds.

Argueably true, dependant on what you call "domination". There are more human nations and probably more land area occupied by humans; and Elves, Dwarves and Halflings are descended from human or near-human racial stock (evolution, not divine creation is a major factor in my worlds.) That said, the three Elf and three Dwarf nations are by no means small, and the human nations have about as good relations as a real nation. Further, the toss up for biggest super-power comes as either the human psuedo-Roman empire, or the Dark Lord's lands, which while technically being three countries are under his control; humans are not the dominant group there (though far from rare).


2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.

Not really. Elves have their own counties. The largest, in the Silver Forest, does nowadays guard its borders rather harshly, but only because humans kept invading... The land of the Dark Elves is under the control of the Dark Lord, and they consider themselves sort of the nobility of all the races under his command. (This is kinda debatable, but a generally harmless perception.) Reclusive, not really.

Dwarves again have three countries, all of which are slightly different. One is a fairly 'traditional' "scottish" fightin'-and-'boosin' clan, livin'-in-mountains crowd; one is a load of crafters (a bit more Norse mythology dwarf -like) and the last is more sort of a hill dwarf type, living on hills, not under them.

Orcs are a created race, built with Goblins, Hobgoblins and Kobolds as four species to counter the four Northern Nations races; the Orc-Kin. They are certainly martial, but not really what you would constitute a Klingon or Narn or Samurai (etc)-style "proud, honourable warrior" race. The ones till under the Dark Lord's sway are very Uruk-Hai like. So, if by "proud" you mean "arrogant bastards" and "warrior" you mean "guy who will rip off your face" then, kinda yeah; otherwise, no.

(Their is a group of now-independant "mongol" Hobgoblins who might fit the bill more, but even that is debatealy.)


3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.

Oh hell yes. I don't like "grim" at the best of times, so damn straight there's good guys and bad guys. I like it that way!

On the other hand, most of the nations tend more to neutral than to good overall; especially the human nations, and they don't all get along. I.e. a more "real" sort or relationship between the major countries.

Except, ironically, the Dark Lord's lands, which are both overall evil and co-operative. (It's why they are so dangerous.)


4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.

Classes are a metagame concept, so not really; though there would be a certain tendancy for the former to occur, granted. In the latter case, there are other classes that also fall under "woodsmen"; and even for Rangers proper there are additional ACF so that they don't even have to stick to TWF or bows.


5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

Not really sure about this one, to be honest. Paladins are supposed to be the paragons of virtue, and while they are martial combatants, the gods they serve would prefer Good over Law and prefer their paladins to aspire to be He-Man rather than Sir Smite-on-Sight. (With the expectation that paladins are only and thus allowed - and expected to - to make mistakes.)


6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.

Kinda. It's certainly a recognised vocation...acceptability would depend on when and where you are in the world.


7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.

No. Evil is decidedly not monolithic. The Demon Lords, the evil Gods and the Dark Lord are all pretty much in opposition with each other; and demonology and necromancy are far from the only way to do evil. Granted, due to it's development at the hands of the Dark Lord, there is a higher proportion of necromancers in the Dark Lands than most places outside it; but by the same token, demonology is also unknown there (the Dark Lord really does NOT like demons at all; if he dislikes the gods, seeing them as Johnny-come-latelys to be removed, he absolutely [I]loathes demons).


8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.

Emphatically not in this world. Magic items are in fact very rare and highly valuable. Crafting them is vastly more difficult than getting x amount of gold and spending some XP. (More like AD&D or Rolemaster crafting; magic a magic item of any power is a quest in itself). You cannot buy magic items at all (save maybe a few scrolls and potions of commonly-available bottom-level spells.)


9- Gods, angels and demons are real.

Yes; their existance is actually integral to the dynamic of the setting, though their direct influence on "modern" and even most of "historical" Dreemaenhyll is more limited.

(The 10,000 year-old Xakkath Demon Wars caused the old gods to leave the world after the war (which the Dark Lord fought in); the Dark Lord alone hid and stayed. Over time, the new gods arose from belief channeled by all the excess divine energy floating around. The Dark Lord hates demons because of the war, and sees the gods as usupers to "his" world.)


10- Death is temporary.

Sorta. Raise Dead and such are certainly existant, but beyond the means or availability of most mere mortals. In addition, there are necromantic equivalents which form Spirt-Bound Liches or Skeleton Warriors, for example. Also, coming back from the dead also relies a bit on the soul in question and the goddess of death and other various factors. In practise, for PCs (and other generally "special" people; where "special" is not the same as "important" or "high-ranking"): yes (mostly). For everyone else: not so much.

Lord Raziere
2010-07-16, 01:28 PM
It has been a while since Rich wrote of 11 basic RPG assumptions in his article about world-building. We've seen the release of different RPG titles, settings that strive for originality, and even a new edition of D&D since then.

So I'm wondering, what's changed? And what is still common in fantasy?

Here's my list...

1- Humans dominate all worlds.
2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
10- Death is temporary.

I've got two fantasy settings let see how they compare.

1: nope
2: don't even have these races
3: nope, grey vs grey morality
4: barbarians don't really appear....
5: there are no paladins
6: nope
7: hahaha nope
9: nope!
10: NNNNNNNNNNOPE!

good to see that I'm defying expectations as usual!

Coplantor
2010-07-16, 01:54 PM
OK, gonna cross check with my two main homebrew settings

Setting A: I created it when I was 13ish... mostly a rip off of every fantasy setting I liked back then (including tactics ogre, The Slayers, warcraft, final fantasy and dark sun)

Setting B: A huge mash up of a lot of diferent genres mostly steampunk




1- Humans dominate all worlds.

A: Yes, at least half of the world has been "humanized". Though the world is like a coin, and only one side is mostly ruled by humans

B: Also true, the humans are the most prominent and a great majority in the most powerful nation (though one could argue that gnomes are the real power there)


2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.

A: Averted, there are no traditional fantasy races. Some fill those niches, the most "elvish" race lives deep within the jungle and are top martial artists and hunted for the value of their blood in the production of certain magic rituals and something that resembles magitech. Another race could be considered a a mix of dwarves/orcs. They are miners and proud warriors, but their greatest asset is their natural dexterity and nimbleness.
The race that filled the cute thief role was removed on my last revision of the setting.

B: Dwarves are Cowboys or Industrial lords, Orcs are either gypsies or eastern europe like nobles (think Dracula =P). Halflings are used as slaves, elves are quite reclusive though.


3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.

A: Yes, it's a major element of the setting =P

B: Nope, not really.


4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.

A: The most "barbarian" like race actually uses some magic powers instead of raw physcial strength. I've never considered the woodsmen yet.

B: There aren't barbarians, there might be woodsmen, but still, not a main part of the setting.


5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

A: NO FREAKING WAY. I hate the paladin = some god's champion, those are the clerics, paladins are forces of good, and they are also quite rare, thank you.

B: See above


6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.

A and B: Yes =P


7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.

A: Not at all, part of the main meta plot, if you could cal it that, was that demons being seen as evil was an evil plan from a dragon who was opposed by demons and humans when he tried to destroy the world. Gate between the two worlds was sealed and the followers of the dragon worked behind the scenes to change the official history, so most humans today adore the dragon as a good deity and hunt the demons as the evl thing they think they are.

Also, both good and bad guys use undeads =P

B: Somewhat true, though most undeads are independent entities feared by every one, also, there are very few mages.


8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.

A:Guilty

B:Not guilty


9- Gods, angels and demons are real.

A: Yes

B: Somewhat true, but most dont really care about the world


10- Death is temporary.

A: Only for the most exeptional of heroes and champions of the gods

B: Only for those who come back as mindless undead after falling victims of the curse of the east

Anteros
2010-07-16, 02:04 PM
You might try Bill Coffin's Pax Morgana, which starts off with a fairly sympathetic portrayal of the Lancelot/Guinivere/Arthur triangle.

Or, you could go with MC Lars. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_RL7gOD7S8) (warning: language is a touch saucy)

I've always preferred Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur for my King Arthur fix. Manages to keep Lancelot as a somewhat sympathetic character, without painting his deeds sympathetically.

Mulletmanalive
2010-07-16, 02:51 PM
1- Humans dominate all worlds.
2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
10- Death is temporary.

As eveyone else is doing so, i thought i'd compare my two settings, called Heart's End and Mecha Victoriana [HE and MV respectively]:

1. HE Yes, pretty much. Humans rule the lowlands and are the nation formers. Most other races tend to hold onto their holdings like lichen on rocks without expanding

MV Victorian setting, no additional races. Humans are varies to a selection of comparable subgroups, however, by upbringing.

2. HE Elves aren't so much reclusive as homicidal forest stalkers to be avoided at all costs; Dwarfs live underground, what else are they going to do? Orcs are basically Native Americans high on Conan stories and Halflings are just little, agile humans. PCs tend to be crooks but NPCs very rarely are.

MV See #1

3. HE Yes, though they rarely effect anything in normal life; they kinda drive the conspiracies that make the world wierd, however.

MV Not really. There are some folks who tip into Exalted or Vile territory but in general, people are people. Some nice, some are horrid...

4. HE Nope

MV Nope, though analogue classes exist. Both are types and temperment of soldier.

5. HE Nope. Paladins are born champions of their gods. In general, they really don't get along with the church, given that the church doesn't have much to do with the gods themselves...

MV The idea here is that Paladins are basically the essence of their faith boiled down into a holy warrior. Not usually actually doing what the church tells them, though.

6. HE Nope. The terms "Mercenary" and "Fixer" and "Trouble Magnet" exist though...

MV Nope. Well, there are Adventurers, but these guys are generally chaps in pith helmets the PCs are sent to rescue from the Amazon or something...

7. HE No to the demons, yes to the undead. Undead are kind of the "evil tool of choice." Demons are rare because the cosmology is very odd and getting anything like that into the system is REALLY hard...

MV Both are in use and the "enemy" faction's leadership are in league with Hell, so the demons show up in numbers when they appear at all. Lone mages are unheard of, incidentally.

8. HE Nope. Control freak about that and there's a wierd magic items thing that makes the world different.

MV Nope. Virtually none unless you make them yourself or they're plot items. And the ones you make yourself have to be replaced before each mission...

9. HE Yes. It's a heroic fantasy setting. The gods meddle continuously...

MV Yes but it's complicated.

10. HE Not so much. e10 setting and there's only maybe a dozen such casters on the planet.

MV Ressurection is possible, convincing people to leave heaven if they earned it, not so easy...

So, kinda traditional for one setting, not so much on the other.

It should be noted that i've been fascinated by religion and belief for years so these concepts are lynchpins of anything i create...

dps
2010-07-16, 03:38 PM
Pendragon

I'm assuming non-fantasy games/settings are exempt, since that'd be trivial.



Yeah, pretty much any RPG setting that's not fantasy, horror, or SF is going to be all-human. :smallbiggrin:

DragonOfLies
2010-07-16, 03:50 PM
Here's how this compares to my (still in development) homebrew setting.

What? Everybody's doing it :smallredface:

1- Humans dominate all worlds
They're by far the most numerous of the intelligent races yes. But "dominate" is probably not a good word. Actual civilisations tend not to last long what with the massive hordes of monsters that ravage the setting on a regular basis

2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
Elves are effectively replaced by Killoren, who aren't particularly reclusive. They don't care much about what the humans are doing though unless it directly involves fighting said hordes of monsters. Dwarves are replaced by Duergar. They don't mine. That's what slaves are for. There are no orcs or halflings.

3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
It's mostly black and grey morality. Except for the politics, which is grey and grey.

4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
The character class, yes. Nomadic tribes of semi-civilised humans, not so much

5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types"
Some of them are, some of them aren't. Most of them are Lawful Neutral though, so it's to be expected.

6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
Mercenaries are very common, but the stereotypical adventuring party (including both an arcane and divine caster) is very rare.

7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
Anyone with sufficient divine power can control undead. It doesn't make you evil. Mages stupid enough to summon demons immediately regret it. Mages stupid enough to summon devils don't regret it immediately. Most evil mages are just mages that use their magic for evil.

8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
Magic is indeed fairly common. Not quite so many healing potions around though.

9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
Gods certainly don't exist, at least not in the sense that we usually use the term. Angels sort of exist.. but only if you summon them. Demons are very, very real.

10- Death is temporary.
Ressurection magic is rare, and even then there's a time limit. The realm of the dead has rather a lot of soul-eating shadow monsters.

StreetPizza
2010-07-16, 04:12 PM
Okay, I guess I'll compare this to the setting from the first game I DM'ed. Maybe I can learn something from it and improve the setting if I ever have the chance to reuse it.

1- Humans dominate all worlds.

Thankfully, no. It's more like "they control an equal share of the land compared to the Elves and Dwarves".

2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.

Eeyep. Racial profiling galore!

3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.

Well, yes, but not in a "Saturday morning cartoon villain" kind of way. The big revelation was gonna have big bad evil guy only doing what he was doing to protect the known world from an external threat.

4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.

Managed to inadvertently dodge a bullet here with the whole "civilization is predominant" thing here. Basically, there isn't enough wilderness or woodland to warrant a barbarian/woodsman's existence.

5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

Yep.

6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.

Nope. The PC party's supposed to be motivated by the big bad's control over one of the three nations and is as a result led to "la resistance". Doesn't change the fact that there's still plenty of treasure lying around, though, even if part of the reason for the treasure's existence is to keep the players satisfied.

7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.

Guilty as charged.

8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.

Well, yes, but if the force (read: suspension of disbelief) is strong enough with you, you'll realize that civilization is big, and big civilizations tend to have decently efficient mass-production processes for lower-level magic items. You won't be seeing +5 weapons and armor in every storefront, but shelves stocked with Acme brand orange-mango flavor cure light wounds potions? You betcha.

9- Gods, angels and demons are real.

Yep.

10- Death is temporary.

Yep.

WarKitty
2010-07-16, 04:15 PM
The trouble is when you say "evil mage", what comes to mind is not someone who is evil and who uses magic, but someone who is not only evil, but uses magic that is evil. Decent examples of mages who are evil, but whose magic is not inherently so, are somewhat rare. Winnowill from Elfquest is a good example of someone who is evil and uses magic (often twisting her magic to match her insanity), but her magic is not itself evil.

Now what would be real fun is a good character using "evil" magic. Can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

Math_Mage
2010-07-16, 04:23 PM
Now what would be real fun is a good character using "evil" magic. Can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

Necromancer using skeletal minions to save children from a burning orphanage? :smallbiggrin:

Aroka
2010-07-16, 04:50 PM
It doesn't. But it really gives more tension, when you know, that ressurection is OK, and, for example, suddenly find out, that particular villain can kill with no possibility for reviving. Makes him more villain-ish. Also when killing your enemy is simply not enough, it stimulates intrigues, reputation wars, and other social-fu.

I find it much more interesting to use scenarios where killing your enemy is too much, rather than not enough. When death isn't a joke (and villains aren't two-dimensional madmen stepping on puppies' heads), suddenly there can be very serious consequences for bumping off an enemy.


Now what would be real fun is a good character using "evil" magic. Can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

Call of Cthulhu, although it's less evil (because it's not a setting that bothers with concepts of "good" and "evil" as anything more than subjective social constructs), and more plain wrong. The PCs are "good", but all magic they use - and they must use it - is "evil."

Fax Celestis
2010-07-16, 05:12 PM
Let's try this for my (backburner'd) campaign setting...


1- Humans dominate all worlds.
Nope. Just one world, and the elves have most of it. And the sauhagin.

2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.Nope. Elves and half-elves are the traders, since they're the only ones that can get out of the air-domes (without magic) without dying from water pressure. Dwarves are tinkers and maintain the air-domes. Halflings run hospices.

3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.Nope. No alignment.

4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons."Woodsmen"? what is this woodsmen you speak of? There haven't been any trees since before the Flood.

5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".Paladins follow a cause, not a church, and are not all nice people.

6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.Yes. There are many treasures out under the ocean, and they are needed to keep the air-domes up.

7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.Nah. 99% of evil mages control schools of sharks, barracuda, and other seaborne predation.

8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.Sure, but so do the cybernaughtical ones.

9- Gods, angels and demons are real.Nope. No one has heard from any of the gods (or their servants) since before the Flood, and even that is debated.

10- Death is temporary.Sort of. It's very very difficult to get someone back, but it's not unheard of.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-07-16, 06:51 PM
Let's see how my Windowed World does...



1- Humans dominate all worlds.
2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.
3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.
4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.
5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".
6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.
7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.
8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.
9- Gods, angels and demons are real.
10- Death is temporary.

1. Definitely not. Humans are as common as any other race. Gnomes and particular elf subraces make up the majority of the leaders of the empires, orcs and dwarves are most common in the wilderness. Humans are merely one of the few races (halflings being another of note, elves are another though each subrace is even more exclusive to one area than most other races) that are split almost evenly between both areas.

2. Elves vary massively by subrace: Wild elves are gregarious, Drow have a separate but not hidden section of society, Grey elves are reclusive and "High" elves are near slaves and have almost no privacy whatsoever. These are of course only a few examples.

Dwarves are craftspeople and the proud warrior race. If there's a Wild-made item popular in the empires it's been made by Dwarves. The armies of the Dwarves are the only ones that might be able to resist a small empire's forces, but this is balanced by the fact that the Dwarves never invade other lands, they only fight to defend their own.

Orcs are not particularly proud warriors. They have minor quarrels at all times, but they have an almost unbeatable prowess for mechanics and alchemy. They are similar to WH40k Orks. If they make something mechanical then you have three certainties about it: it isn't pretty, it works well and no one has any idea why it works at all. Orc alchemy has provided the world with gunpowder, among other things. An Orc's basic approach to any endeavor is to throw random things together, if it works it works excellently. If it doesn't then it wasn't meant to happen, though the Orc is usually satisfied by the resulting explosion (which always happens when an Orc fails in making something, even when none of the parts are explosive seperately or in combination). Advancements in alchemy are often due solely to Orc efforts, and the empires only advance in alchemy at all because the Orcs are happy to hand over their knowledge in exchange for more potential ingredients mass-produced in the factories of the world's empires.

3. Yes. I like the alignment system and I'm running this world in 3.5 anyway, houeruling alignment out of those rules is a massive effort.

4. Not even close. Barbarians and woodsmen are either reffering to classes, which are metagame only, or the people living in the wilderness, whose only defining trait is a lack of magical talent (and there are exceptions to that, however few).

5. Metagame and therefore irrelevant or a very varied group with no shared methods, goals or cause.

6. "Adventurer" is sort-of a profession, though other terms are more commonly used. Whether it's accepted varies widely by the empire or settlement that is being dealt with and by the methods used and goals accomplished. Recovering items lost to the wilderness through means of avoiding any guardians or malevolent forces is more respected in most empires and less in most wilderness settlements. Killing things and taking their stuff gets the opposite reactions from the people of each area.

7. Nope. Evil mages have an incredible variety of allies and methods. Summoning demons is done mostly by evil mages if done at all, but is by no means a common use of magic even amongst them. Creating undead is not evil and is practiced by mages of all alignments. Constructs, abberations, fey, magical beasts, elementals and less intelligent humanoids and monstrous humanoids are all allies and minions to evil mages as often as the things you mentioned. The only things that don't make common appearances are more intelligent humanoids and monstrous, plants, animals and vermin, though that's because evil enchanters and nature-based casters are less common than general evil mages.

8. In the empires (main cities of the world, and the asumed starting area for PCs), oh yeah. The second sentence applies literally in some places, though most places have create food and water "traps". This is notably less common in the wilderness however. Most magical items there are lost and sealed away or owned by powerful creatures.

9. Yes. Gods have been successfully visited on multiple occasions. Celestials and fiends walk, fly and crawl the streets of the empires, treated as any other city-dweller.

10. Another yes, though Maruts have words with those who give the afterlives reasons to install revolving doors. Those who can make an acceptable deal with Mechanus may continue unhindered, those who do not face the very grave they so desperately avoid.

So that's: empires 4 and a bit (6 is about half true and 2 has a tiny bit right) of ten, wilderness 3 and a bit (8 no longer applies, otherwise the same as above) of ten. The two areas are very different, so they should definitely be counted seperately. At ~8/20 your list isn't looking too accurate, and this is in the system that the list was presumably based on.

However, I thank you for getting me to think about my setting again, and it is very far from a "standard" D&D setting so that the list isn't accurate for it may not be a bad thing.

Frozen_Feet
2010-07-16, 08:05 PM
Seeing a bandwagon, might as wll jump in. <.<

1- Humans dominate all worlds.

Humans share itty bitty living space with three other sapient species that are numerically greater. In any case, "domination" is bit of a strong word when largest human government holds maybe 1% of the worlds surface and no mortal knows how big it is in the first place.

2- Elves are reclusive, dwarves are miners, orcs are a proud warrior race. And halflings are still thieves but cuter and precious.

No species hold those names or answer to the stereotypes attached to them, so I can safely say no to this one.

3- Good and Evil are still there, even in supposedly "grim" RPGs.

Uh huh. Greatest heroes of the setting lean strongly towards Übermensch morality, and a strong case could be made that God of the setting is evil... which would pretty much destroy any notion of 'Good' existing.

4- All barbarians rage and most woodsmen fight with two weapons.

Barbarians herd reindeer and woodsmen chop wood. Wait, what was the question again?

5- Paladins are church militants, as opposed to older "Lancelot-types".

The 'paladins' are closer to questing knights and their religion resembles a buddhist monastic order. In any case, they aren't interested in either politics or any actual military.

6- "Adventurer" is a recognized and often acceptable profession.

It's a catch-all word for people who decide to move around a bit to widen their horizons. :smalltongue: The actual professions are "explorer", "mercenary", "merchant" and "spelunker."

7- 99% of evil mages summon demons or control undead.

I'd say it's more like 66%, as all mages sell their souls to either final death, God or Lord of Nightmares (a demon lord), and all could be considered evil by default. Also I could scratch out the last one, because he's technically part of God.

8- Magic items abound. Healing potions are more common than water flasks.

Only in legends and myths. Most people never see an enhanced item in their lives. 'Healing potions' are neither common or magical.

9- Gods, angels and demons are real.

That I grant you. Most people are just ignorant of what they really are or how they really work.

10- Death is temporary.

Well, you can always fall back on reincarnation, if you can die in the first place - becoming undying shard of a God or having your soul trapped in stone with an angry demon host are also possible. Unless, of course, you've sold your soul to final death to resurrect a loved one. In that case, you're gone for good.

Yukitsu
2010-07-16, 10:29 PM
Now what would be real fun is a good character using "evil" magic. Can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

Harry Dresden did, albiet not entirely intentionally.