CR of characters with class levels?

[gallagher]

so suppose the i am wanting to have encounters with a group of villains. the party will be around level 6 the first time they face them, and will be 5-6 in number.

would it be CR appropriate to have 3 level 9 NPCs (a caster and 2 martial classes) face these guys? i have seen the table for scaling CRs of monsters, but i dont know how to judge the CR of someone with class levels.

[woodenbandman]

Depends what the caster casts.

[tyckspoon]

Officially, if they have PC levels and only PC levels than CR=Level. The actual difficulty of the fight has basically no relevance to that, however, since it depends so dramatically on what the classes are and how effectively you use them. For example, your PCs can probably coordinate and use their greater number of available actions to overwhelm the martial opponents, since the martial opponents edge will generally be in having higher base numbers, which can be countered with good tactics and buffing/debuffing. The caster, on the other hand, will have access to spells one or a full two levels higher than those available to the party. Which means he can use effects the party absolutely cannot, and effects the party isn't actually *supposed* to be able to handle for another 3 or 4 levels. That can lead to a TPK from a well-played casting opponent, even if he weren't supported by martial distractions.

[Rin_Hunter]

It seems to me that you're talking about humanoids. If so, they have a CR equal to their level. If they have NPC classes then it is level -1.

Adjust for race and you may want to add or minus 1 for level of optimisation.

Put up the races and classes as well as the base CR if they are not humanoid and we will be able to help.

[gallagher]

Put up the races and classes as well as the base CR if they are not humanoid and we will be able to help.

Here is the Barbarian (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=216891) who attacks with the chains that hold him back or a longspear, depending on his mood

Here is the TWF Monk/PsyWar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=215784). he fights with tiger claws, which are refluffed scorpions claws

Here is the Caster, a Spellthief/Sorc/USS (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=217085). he is really the only one who i have all his equipment.

they are all level 8 with +1 LA

[tyckspoon]

Hmm. I'd say they're actually a little bit weak for their level, except the chain-fighter. The PsyWar in particular has a pretty dire attack bonus for the level and no really good way to increase it, although I would guess his weapon attacks are mostly for show. He has relatively low AC and becomes both an easier and a priority target when he grabs somebody and starts crushing them- I would expect him to get taken out quite rapidly when that happens.

Edit: So, at a rough guess, CR 8 for the chain-fighter, 6 for the Tashalatora, and 6/7 for the caster, depending on how effectively he uses his spells.

[Rin_Hunter]

I don't know the base CR adjustments of the Half-Minotaur, Goliath or Chaos Gnome and I have no access to my books.

They are all in Races of Stone, right? If there is a monster chapter then check their entries. It'll be 8 + racial CR adjustment listed in that chapter.

EDIT: tyckspoon is probably right and has an awesome avatar.

[gallagher]

Hmm. I'd say they're actually a little bit weak for their level, except the chain-fighter. The PsyWar in particular has a pretty dire attack bonus for the level and no really good way to increase it, although I would guess his weapon attacks are mostly for show. He has relatively low AC and becomes both an easier and a priority target when he grabs somebody and starts crushing them- I would expect him to get taken out quite rapidly when that happens.

Edit: So, at a rough guess, CR 8 for the chain-fighter, 6 for the Tashalatora, and 6/7 for the caster, depending on how effectively he uses his spells.the AC will be taken care of with inertial armor. the powers he has i put in the spell list section

[Runestar]

All I know is that the orc barb can be further optimized, replacing 6 lvs of barb with fighter, allowing him to take melee weapon mastery and granting +3 to-hit/+4 damage. Swap out uncanny dodge for improved trip, and see if you can raise his dex to 13 and squeeze in combat reflexes while you are at it. Barb3+ doesn't really grant anything useful (you don't need more uses of rage in a fight). Give him steadfast determination as well, his abyssmal will save makes him too vulnerable to SoDs such as deep slumber and glitterdust. :smalltongue:

This probably makes it more worthy of a cr9. :smallsmile:

The monk/psywarrior doesn't look really threatening, though I haven't really taken in account his buffs (just that his stats look fairly underwhelming). Might monk4/psywarrior4 be better? Or go swordsage4/psywar4? Or better yet, go pure swordsage.

[gallagher]

I don't know the base CR adjustments of the Half-Minotaur, Goliath or Chaos Gnome and I have no access to my books.

They are all in Races of Stone, right? If there is a monster chapter then check their entries. It'll be 8 + racial CR adjustment listed in that chapter.

EDIT: tyckspoon is probably right and has an awesome avatar.
chaos gnome and goliath are both in races of stone. half minotaur i forget where it is, i saw it in an index

and i agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of tyckspoons avatar.

[gallagher]

All I know is that the orc barb can be further optimized, replacing 6 lvs of barb with fighter, allowing him to take melee weapon mastery and granting +3 to-hit/+4 damage. Swap out uncanny dodge for improved trip, and see if you can raise his dex to 13 and squeeze in combat reflexes while you are at it. Barb3+ doesn't really grant anything useful (you don't need more uses of rage in a fight). Give him steadfast determination as well, his abyssmal will save makes him too vulnerable to SoDs such as deep slumber and glitterdust. :smalltongue:

This probably makes it more worthy of a cr9. :smallsmile:where is mele weapon mastery? and i need the whole party to be CR9. they are going to be recurring villains, so they will be used again (i already have plans to bring them back from the dead if need be)

[Runestar]

where is mele weapon mastery?

PHB2 (+2 to-hit/damage, weapon spec as prereq), steadfast determination as well (use con mod on will instead of wis).

[tyckspoon]

the AC will be taken care of with inertial armor. the powers he has i put in the spell list section

It's only worth +6 AC at maximum augmentation given his current layout. That'll put him at 23, 20 in a grapple (since he loses Dex against targets not in the grapple) and lower when he Expands thanks to the size penalty. Level 6 characters should not have a very difficult time hitting AC 19/20.

The question is.. how deadly do you *want* him to be? In my current estimation, the trio will make a challenging but probably not lethal fight. We could easily rebuild them all with more effective versions of the concepts so they'd all be CR 8-9 in their own right.. but that would be an overwhelmingly difficult fight, with a near guarantee of dead characters and good chances of TPK.

[gallagher]

It's only worth +6 AC at maximum augmentation given his current layout. That'll put him at 23, 20 in a grapple (since he loses Dex against targets not in the grapple) and lower when he Expands thanks to the size penalty. Level 6 characters should not have a very difficult time hitting AC 19/20.

The question is.. how deadly do you *want* him to be? In my current estimation, the trio will make a challenging but probably not lethal fight. We could easily rebuild them all with more effective versions of the concepts so they'd all be CR 8-9 in their own right.. but that would be an overwhelmingly difficult fight, with a near guarantee of dead characters and good chances of TPK.

well the first time they meet the party, their job is to round them up and bring them to their boss to be bribed for information. the later times will be intended to either bring them back or to kill them

[gallagher]

also, i know for a fact that two of the characters in the party are not so geared towards teamwork. fighting these 3 could show them how effective a party can be that capitalizes on their strengths, which may or may not be that impressive, and works together

[tyckspoon]

Hmm. So, here's what I'd probably do:

Barbarian: Consider switching for Barb 2/Fighter 6 and using the Dungeoncrasher ACF (Dungeonscape; +lots damage when you bull rush somebody into an obstacle.) Use Wolf Totem variant (Uncanny Dodge -> Improved Trip as a bonus feat) which qualifies him for Knock Down. Drop Cleave, swap for Knock Down, proceed to knock over puny PCs. Consider outfitting him with a Merciful weapon for those encounters where "Bring them back alive" is the goal. Doesn't really need too much more, IMO, although if you're feeling really aggressive about it you could also use the Pounce ACF from Complete Champion and try to fit in some of the charge-enhancing feats.

PsyWar: You're missing the Monastic Training pre-req for Tashalatora. And you don't actually qualify for those Martial Study/Martial Stance selections- your Initiator Level is only 4, which will get you at most Level 2 maneuvers. And that only if you pick it with your PsyWar 6 bonus feat. You're probably better off just swapping the Monk levels for Swordsage; Swordsage 1/PsyWar 6/Swordsage 1 would get you the AC bonus, IL 5 (=3rd Level maneuvers), and the ability to refresh your maneuvers that you had noted on your sheet. A Chain Shirt +1 would largely remove the need for Inertial Armor, which is nice 'cause PsyWars don't have a hell of a lot of PP to play with, and anything that lets you use it on offensive powers is good. The PsyWar bonus feats you free up can be used to reselect Imp. Unarmed Strike/Imp. Grapple.

Things to look into:
Scorpion's Grasp, a feat from Sandstorm that effectively gives you the Improved Grab ability.
Practiced Manifester: Feat, Comp. Psi, basically Practiced Spellcaster for manifesters. Increases your ML, which increases your bonus PP, and also hits several important PsyWar augmentation breakpoints, such as the ability to Expand 2 size categories or manifest it as a Swift action. [Psionic], so you can grab it as a PsyWar bonus.

If you go Swordsage, drop Inertial Armor for Force Screen; it makes a good Linked Power target when you need extra AC. I'd probably also trade Strength of My Enemy for Animal Affinity; StrengthoME is cooler, but Animal Affinity is more versatile and more immediately useful, since you don't have to try and hit somebody 4 times to get the benefit.

The TWF line isn't doing this dude any favors. If you find yourself feat-stressed, you can drop it without significant loss; as you have him statted right now (and assuming you go Swordsage so he actually works) he'll do far, far more damage by grappling and Constricting, which doesn't work with TWF.

[gallagher]

Hmm. So, here's what I'd probably do:

Barbarian: Consider switching for Barb 2/Fighter 6 and using the Dungeoncrasher ACF (Dungeonscape; +lots damage when you bull rush somebody into an obstacle.) Use Wolf Totem variant (Uncanny Dodge -> Improved Trip as a bonus feat) which qualifies him for Knock Down. Drop Cleave, swap for Knock Down, proceed to knock over puny PCs. Consider outfitting him with a Merciful weapon for those encounters where "Bring them back alive" is the goal. Doesn't really need too much more, IMO, although if you're feeling really aggressive about it you could also use the Pounce ACF from Complete Champion and try to fit in some of the charge-enhancing feats.

PsyWar: You're missing the Monastic Training pre-req for Tashalatora. And you don't actually qualify for those Martial Study/Martial Stance selections- your Initiator Level is only 4, which will get you at most Level 2 maneuvers. And that only if you pick it with your PsyWar 6 bonus feat. You're probably better off just swapping the Monk levels for Swordsage; Swordsage 1/PsyWar 6/Swordsage 1 would get you the AC bonus, IL 5 (=3rd Level maneuvers), and the ability to refresh your maneuvers that you had noted on your sheet. A Chain Shirt +1 would largely remove the need for Inertial Armor, which is nice 'cause PsyWars don't have a hell of a lot of PP to play with, and anything that lets you use it on offensive powers is good. The PsyWar bonus feats you free up can be used to reselect Imp. Unarmed Strike/Imp. Grapple.

Things to look into:
Scorpion's Grasp, a feat from Sandstorm that effectively gives you the Improved Grab ability.
Practiced Manifester: Feat, Comp. Psi, basically Practiced Spellcaster for manifesters. Increases your ML, which increases your bonus PP, and also hits several important PsyWar augmentation breakpoints, such as the ability to Expand 2 size categories or manifest it as a Swift action. [Psionic], so you can grab it as a PsyWar bonus.

If you go Swordsage, drop Inertial Armor for Force Screen; it makes a good Linked Power target when you need extra AC. I'd probably also trade Strength of My Enemy for Animal Affinity; StrengthoME is cooler, but Animal Affinity is more versatile and more immediately useful, since you don't have to try and hit somebody 4 times to get the benefit.

The TWF line isn't doing this dude any favors. If you find yourself feat-stressed, you can drop it without significant loss; as you have him statted right now (and assuming you go Swordsage so he actually works) he'll do far, far more damage by grappling and Constricting, which doesn't work with TWF.

as the DM, i dropped the monastic training prereq. the players get the same advantage, so i dont feel bad. they all stay away from monks anyway.

the swordsage advice, plus all the rest, is greatly helpful, and will be reflected in these characters. he will keep the scorpion claws, though, and instead of TWF'ing he will use more tiger claw maneuvers.

[Runestar]

Also, are you using the half-minotaur = +12str interpretation? Because then, I think that warrants more than +1cr (lolth-touched gives only +6str/con and is already considered to be fairly strong).

But then its debatable if barb2/fighter6 is cr8 (a hill giant has about similar stats but only cr7), so maybe it all cancels out.

[SethFahad]

I don't know the base CR adjustments of the Half-Minotaur, Goliath or Chaos Gnome and I have no access to my books.

They are all in Races of Stone, right? If there is a monster chapter then check their entries. It'll be 8 + racial CR adjustment listed in that chapter.

EDIT: tyckspoon is probably right and has an awesome avatar.

Half-Minotaur: Dragon Magazine #313 p.94 +1 LA
Goliath +1 LA
Gnome Chaos +1 LA

[Rin_Hunter]

Half-Minotaur: Dragon Magazine #313 p.94 +1 LA
Goliath +1 LA
Gnome Chaos +1 LA

Again, I was asking for CR not Level Adjustment. The OP already said they were all a +1 LA.

[SethFahad]

Again, I was asking for CR not Level Adjustment. The OP already said they were all a +1 LA.

Oh, ok.

Half-Minotaur, if size increases, then CR+1